:- Ok, so I've noticed something about the church and stuff. We are so divided!! Why are we like this? I mean, God called us to unite and do things together but everywhere I go Christians are so divided and for the dumbest of reasons! I mean, this is an issue I've been struggling with cuz like at church and stuff and even at school I am the one who is seen as odd in the Christian community and therefore left out and the people never even get to know me! I mean, what's up with that?! WE NEED TO STAND UP AND UNITE! IF WE DO NOT, THEN WE WILL SURELY COME TO DESTRUCTION! DON'T LET THE ENEMY WIN! PUT ASIDE ANY DIFFERENCES AND LET GO OF THE POINTLESS THINGS THAT ARE KEEP YOU AWAY FROM OTHERS!

not to cause division ::), but some division can be good. If you had to do a Bible study with the early grade school kids, either you would be bored out of your mind or the lesson would go right over the kids' heads. And the oh so infamous music debate, if you tried to please every one's musical tastes, a lot of people would be upset. Yet If they have a common goal, God's Glory, than they all are working as one. And we should not cause division because they go to the traditional service and I go to the contemporary service, we worship the same God, just in a diffrent culture. so remember, God loves the Punk Rocker as much as he loves the Classical musician (but not the Disco Dork, because everyone knows that Disco is of the Devil ;) ::))

true, some division is good. but when it comes to division between the different churchs. i'm not just talking Lutheran vs. Catholic vs. Baptist vs. Nondenominational. what's with the division between churchs as a whole? we have this high school mentality. "because you go to that church, & i go to this church, we are different. my church is better than yours & we don't have all the stupid people you do." :'( :P why do people have that attitude? are we not the same body, just different parts?

What’s happened is that God would bless a group of people with an out poring of His Spirit (wine*). Unfortunately when they got it they said, “this is as good as it gets”.
Luke 5:39** "And no one having drunk old wine (old outpourings) immediately desires new, for he says, 'The old is better."
And they built a structure around that move (this is were most but not all denominations and some other churches come from). When they built the structure (holding on to the old skin), they lost the ability to receive new wine (new outpourings of God’s Spirit).
Mark 2:22 “And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins.”
Because of the walls (old skin) that some people are holding on to, they are not able to be filled with (they could be if they got ride of the old skin) or understand the new wine. Their old skins would explode (what happens when new win is poured into old wine skin, because the old cannot stretch) if they tied the new wine.
Pride usually gets a foothold at this point, and says that since it’s not a part of what they experience or believe then it obviously must not be of the Lord (though some just say it cause of what they were taught).
*Wine: In the Bible it is often used as a symbol relating to spirit (Most often God’s Holy Spirit). On the day of Pentecost those filled with the Spirit were accused of being naturally drunk (because the people did not understand what was going on).
Act 2:13 “But others mocking said, They are filled with new wine.”
Eph 5:18 “And be not drunken with (natural) wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit;”
**What is taking place in Luke 5:39, is the person getting comfortable. They see that the old has worked before, and going any farther looks risky.
Let me give an example: Lets say you were to go to someone else’s house (whose lay out your not familiar with) and stay the night. During the night you have to use the restroom but it’s pitch black and they got their things all around. You would end up bumping and probably knocking over a lot of things.
But if you were at you house, even if it’s pitch black you would be able to get the restroom and back with virtually no problem. Because you are familiar with the lay out of the furniture in your house.
That’s the way it is spiritually. When God brings us to new level we don’t know the way everything works. And some people after bumping into a few things say, “this isn’t turning out to well. I’m going back to what I’m used to.”

are we not the same body, just different parts?
Mostly yes, but there are some places that are so far off that they worship a diffrent Jesus, and not the real deal. Those are not part of His body. Right now there is a mix within the churches, those who truly follow the Lord and those who go after other images. So, it can be confusing as to weather their of the Lord or not. But don't worry, the Lord is drawing His body together and soon it will be like it should. 8)

Mostly yes, but there are some places that are so far off that they worship a diffrent Jesus, and not the real deal. Those are not part of His body. Right now there is a mix within the churches, those who truly follow the Lord and those who go after other images. So, it can be confusing as to weather their of the Lord or not. But don't worry, the Lord is drawing His body together and soon it will be like it should. 8)


true, there are some denominations (or even people within a given denom.) that are only "Christian" by name. they are not followers of God. i know i'm probably gonna get a lot of people on me about this one, but not all Catholics are Christian. yes, not all the people in any given denomination are Christian, but it seems that it's a higher ratio with Catholics.

i say this because the Catholics have things in place that make it more prone to falling into the category of a religion (rather than relationship) than some of the other denoms.

for example, many people believe that since they are baptized as a baby, they are ok. but really, being baptized as a baby is like saying "we dedicate this baby to You & we will train him/her up in such a way as to guide them towards becoming a follower of You on their own. then they will make this step of baptism again, but of their own free will."

so, getting off the Catholic thing (which, btw doesn't mean i'm anti-Catholic. half my family is Catholic, including my fave Grandma. ;) ), you are absolutely right that there are sects of Christianity that really aren't Christian. but even looking at all the truly Christian churchs, they aren't united like we should be. even within a given church, we aren't united like we should be. take a look at Acts 2. the church in that chapter broke bread together, they shared all they had, they were one in spirit. imagine having tha kind of community today.

Just a little correction, separation would probably be a better word for the good division I was talking about. not to divide the old people from the contemporary service, but to separate them from it. there is a slight diffrence (at least in my view) between the two, but I would rather make a distintion between spliting the church into "sub-churches" (division) and from having each ministriy/group in their spot (separation).

I'm talking about the kind of unity where like one person won't include another in the church because it has something to do with them and not with their beliefes... :-

I'm talking about the kind of unity where like one person won't include another in the church because it has something to do with them and not with their beliefes... :-


I think that deep down it does have to do with thier beliefs, or mostly thier practices. My mom took us to a church for a while that to me seemed very materialistic. Got to dress to the nines, drive the right car. My mom wasn't allowed in the chior because she didn't tythe 10%. She didn't do it cuz my step dad hated christianity.Mom was a soprano an absolute asset to any chior. Now that I'm an adult I realize the teachings and teachers that particular church was following were false.

If we put the God and His word first and concentrate on that everything else will fall in place.

For example Billy Graham and Harvest Crusades takes a large community of churches to work put on an evangelistic event. That requires alot of unity.

I'll refrain from my personal attitude towards the church as I don't much care to be a part of the hypocracy(sp?) it's become. This itself is one of the reasons I feel the way I do though.

The church is in division a lot on their beliefs. One person will preach at a church, and they are right. Everyone else is wrong. The next church over, same deal.

I grew up in a Lutheran church. Not once in my 13 or so years there (cause I stopped going when I was forced to be comfirmed) did they ever talk about being saved, having a relationship with the Lord, spiritual gifts, or anything else of any relevent importance. It was basically come to church on sunday, sing some lame hymns, listen to the preacher do his sermon we paid him to work on all week for, give us your money, sing another song, your goin to heaven, seeya next sunday... and they wonder why their church is dying...

Denominational walls are something that need to be torn down like the Berlin. It's killing the church, driving people away who could be great workers of Christ. Lord knows I wasted so many years before I got saved at 18. I could have done so much more than I did. The church needs to change with the times to keep people interested. It needs to be excited for Christ. And my mom says "Well, the older people can't get into the new praise and worship like you can." Doggy dung! At some of the churches Ive preached at the past few years, I've seen a lot of the older folks groovin just as hard as the young people. Granted, they may not like something like Savior being played on sunday morning (I'm one of those people who believe sunday morning church should be a sin... when I'm not awake, I can't praise and worship the way I can when I'm awake.) but they can still groove to Hillsongs.

There needs to be a Unity in the church. If we can't heal our home base, how can we expect to bring in new people to be healed? It will only get worse in time. The sad thing is, there aren't enough willing people to make a change. We really need a revival, not for the unsaved, but for the blind churches who can't see they are killing Xianity.

CJ

Doggy dung indeed. I've seen older ppl worshipping to modern stuff too.

I think that the church should provide for both if necessary. If there are a mix of young and old they should provide for both by having a modern and traditional services. I've seen some churches that have traditional in the morning and modern in the evening.

I think thats a good way to have it, being able to appeal to all groups. I really really Hate the attitude of "One type of worship is more acceptable than another" based on the music and songs sang its just plain stupid!
God wants us to worship in spirit and truth not in one genre of music or another!

Grave-digging!!!

Doggy dung indeed. I've seen older ppl worshipping to modern stuff too.

I think that the church should provide for both if necessary. If there are a mix of young and old they should provide for both by having a modern and traditional services. I've seen some churches that have traditional in the morning and modern in the evening.

I think thats a good way to have it, being able to appeal to all groups. I really really Hate the attitude of "One type of worship is more acceptable than another" based on the music and songs sang its just plain stupid!
God wants us to worship in spirit and truth not in one genre of music or another!


Wouldn't that be separation, too, though? Older people would go to the morning services, and younger people the evening services.

I want to get a group together, preferably a larger group, break that into smaller groups, and then each group would go to a different church each sunday, then once a month all meet together. That way, it'd be more unified. Don't think it's realistic, though, unfortunetly...

I agree that some separation is good and necessary. I'm not talking about not letting someone sing in the choir cause of what car they drive (by the way I just bought a new car 2005 Elantra, it's sweet, well sweeter than my old 94 cavalier), or what clothes they where, but separation on the basis of belief system is sometimes necessary. It should be avoided if at all possible but sometimes it cannot.

For instance my church right now is at a crossroads. We are an american baptist church, and have been basically since the beginning. In fact we were one of the founding members. But, right now there is a debate going on in the denomination as to whether homosexuality is compatible with biblical teaching. Basically the more liberally minded churches in an effort to appease gay members of their congregation and to make the denomination more attractive to outsiders want an amendment to the creed of the denomination saying that homosexuality is compatible with biblical teaching. Now they are not the majority so it shouldn't be a problem right? The other churches stand up and say hey you're wrong end of story. Well, it would be if the general secretary of the board for the denomination wasn't a member of one of those liberally minded churches, and unfortunately we have realized that he, and those of the past have set up the denomination so that the churches really have no power over him, and he is the one who makes the decision. So basically we are caught. It is pretty much assured that he will make the amendment. So what do we do? Do we stay and therefore represent a corrupt and biblically unsound denomination simply for the sake of unity? Or do we break off and follow what the bible says to be true? That is the predicament that we find ourselves in. Personally I say we leave if the amendment is made.

So, obviously some separation is necessary sometimes. Obviously if one church likes cornbread and the other likes white bread instead that is not a reason to separate but on important issues of faith sometimes separation is necessary.

Peace

I'm talking about the kind of unity where like one person won't include another in the church because it has something to do with them and not with their beliefes... :-
yes i think that kind of division is sad..wrong...our old church broke up because 2 diff. groups of people wanted 2 diff colors for the carpet! we all have the same destination so we need to put all the little,petty things aside...also..everyone has diff. beliefs about things..sum things the bible muight not be 100% clear on...but thats ok..were all brotehrs and sisters!

The bible speaks numerous times, I believe most common was from Jesus, about not creating divisions or factions, or whatever term you like. A house that is divided cannot stand.

So what do we do? Do we stay and therefore represent a corrupt and biblically unsound denomination simply for the sake of unity? Or do we break off and follow what the bible says to be true?

Correct Doctrine is more important then comprimise for the sake of "unity." I'm not saying that we should reject people, but we shouldn't change doctrine because it's offensive. In the situation you gave, I'm not saying you should reject homosexuals, but you shouldn't change the teachings of the church to make them feel comfortable and that their sin is acceptable (or that any sin is acceptable).

I know a guy in my church who was in jail for a while (in fact, he was saved while he was in jail), he was telling me that he was afraid of the church because he knew he was a sinner. He was afraid that as soon as people found out his history, even the part that he was in jail, that they would run him out of the church. One of the ushers was talking to him (because he was sitting back of the church, away from the rest of the congreagation) and gave him words of encouragement, that the usher was a sinner, the pastor was also, and even the people of the congregation were sinners. He didn't tell him that because he was accepting of his sins, but the usher told him that because he understood that he had done wrong (was a sinner) yet the usher was revealing that the group of "good church people" had their struggles with sin that he too had. In no way were his actions deemed "acceptable" by the usher, pastor, or church. If you ask him, he'd tell you he did a lot of bad things before being saved.

The diffrence between the two situations is that one saw his sin and repented of it and the other denies their sin and wants the church to make it acceptable.

Yes, we should be unified. We should accept people for unity sake, but we shouldn't make their sins acceptable so they can be "unified" with us.

Agent hit it on the head.

Agent hit it on the head with a sledgehammer...