terrasin
08-11-2005, 03:20 AM
Siberia feels the heat It's a frozen peat bog the size of France and Germany combined, contains billions of tonnes of greenhouse gas and, for the first time since the ice age, it is melting

A vast expanse of western Sibera is undergoing an unprecedented thaw that could dramatically increase the rate of global warming, climate scientists warn today.

Researchers who have recently returned from the region found that an area of permafrost spanning a million square kilometres - the size of France and Germany combined - has started to melt for the first time since it formed 11,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.

The area, which covers the entire sub-Arctic region of western Siberia, is the world's largest frozen peat bog and scientists fear that as it thaws, it will release billions of tonnes of methane, a greenhouse gas 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide, into the atmosphere.

It is a scenario climate scientists have feared since first identifying "tipping points" - delicate thresholds where a slight rise in the Earth's temperature can cause a dramatic change in the environment that itself triggers a far greater increase in global temperatures.

The discovery was made by Sergei Kirpotin at Tomsk State University in western Siberia and Judith Marquand at Oxford University and is reported in New Scientist today.

The researchers found that what was until recently a barren expanse of frozen peat is turning into a broken landscape of mud and lakes, some more than a kilometre across.

Dr Kirpotin told the magazine the situation was an "ecological landslide that is probably irreversible and is undoubtedly connected to climatic warming". He added that the thaw had probably begun in the past three or four years.

Climate scientists yesterday reacted with alarm to the finding, and warned that predictions of future global temperatures would have to be revised upwards.

"When you start messing around with these natural systems, you can end up in situations where it's unstoppable. There are no brakes you can apply," said David Viner, a senior scientist at the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.

"This is a big deal because you can't put the permafrost back once it's gone. The causal effect is human activity and it will ramp up temperatures even more than our emissions are doing."

In its last major report in 2001, the intergovernmental panel on climate change predicted a rise in global temperatures of 1.4C-5.8C between 1990 and 2100, but the estimate only takes account of global warming driven by known greenhouse gas emissions.

"These positive feedbacks with landmasses weren't known about then. They had no idea how much they would add to global warming," said Dr Viner.

Western Siberia is heating up faster than anywhere else in the world, having experienced a rise of some 3C in the past 40 years. Scientists are particularly concerned about the permafrost, because as it thaws, it reveals bare ground which warms up more quickly than ice and snow, and so accelerates the rate at which the permafrost thaws.

Siberia's peat bogs have been producing methane since they formed at the end of the last ice age, but most of the gas had been trapped in the permafrost. According to Larry Smith, a hydrologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, the west Siberian peat bog could hold some 70bn tonnes of methane, a quarter of all of the methane stored in the ground around the world.

The permafrost is likely to take many decades at least to thaw, so the methane locked within it will not be released into the atmosphere in one burst, said Stephen Sitch, a climate scientist at the Met Office's Hadley Centre in Exeter.

But calculations by Dr Sitch and his colleagues show that even if methane seeped from the permafrost over the next 100 years, it would add around 700m tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere each year, roughly the same amount that is released annually from the world's wetlands and agriculture.

It would effectively double atmospheric levels of the gas, leading to a 10% to 25% increase in global warming, he said.

Tony Juniper, director of Friends of the Earth, said the finding was a stark message to politicians to take concerted action on climate change. "We knew at some point we'd get these feedbacks happening that exacerbate global warming, but this could lead to a massive injection of greenhouse gases.

"If we don't take action very soon, we could unleash runaway global warming that will be beyond our control and it will lead to social, economic and environmental devastation worldwide," he said. "There's still time to take action, but not much.

"The assumption has been that we wouldn't see these kinds of changes until the world is a little warmer, but this suggests we're running out of time."

In May this year, another group of researchers reported signs that global warming was damaging the permafrost. Katey Walter of the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, told a meeting of the Arctic Research Consortium of the US that her team had found methane hotspots in eastern Siberia. At the hotspots, methane was bubbling to the surface of the permafrost so quickly that it was preventing the surface from freezing over.

Last month, some of the world's worst air polluters, including the US and Australia, announced a partnership to cut greenhouse gas emissions through the use of new technologies.

The deal came after Tony Blair struggled at the G8 summit to get the US president, George Bush, to commit to any concerted action on climate change and has been heavily criticised for setting no targets for reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1546797,00.html

terrasin
08-11-2005, 03:26 AM
Sadly enough, the world doesn't really care about these things. They fail to see that you can't buy clean water and air and as long as the soccer moms of america can drive their 2mpg H2 Hummers, all is right with the world. More people need to wake up and understand that soon enough, probably in this lifetime by the way things are going, this planet is going to turn into Waterworld... minus Kevin Costner and cheesy story line. All anyone needs to really do is pull up google's wonderful satellite imagery system and look at the Polar Ice Caps or the constantly frozen mountains of the eastern continent and see that suddenly, things aren't as white as they were 10 years ago.

Things need to be done and yet, nothing is done. Hope you all know how to swim. Maybe I should look into getting that houseboat after all...

</setmode=treehugger>

CJ

DarkenedHeart
08-11-2005, 07:18 AM
Good thing I like the water, then huh?

Isildur9473
08-11-2005, 08:10 AM
I don't think the government will do anything about this. For years they've been told about the constant melting rate of the polar ice caps, yet they refuse to listen. Maybe they will when water levels start to rise, but by then it could already be too late.

skelfy
08-11-2005, 08:30 AM
Hm, seems like the jokes about 'global warming' are all coming true.

terrasin
08-11-2005, 10:06 AM
The worst part is that it's pretty much doomed to happen now. It's not like everyone on the placet is suddenly going to go "OMG! ICE CAPS MELTING! MUST STOP USING MY CAR!!!" We will just continue to poison the earth till it happens and then face the concequences. :\

CJ

unshakeable15
08-11-2005, 02:39 PM
Warning: do not take this post to mean that i don't care about the earth and it's atmosphere, or the harm we as humans do in the name of science, technology and the modern age. simply take this is a response to the overblown idea of global warming.

first off, if you haven't read Michael Crichton's "State of Fear," do so now. it talks a lot about global warming, giving both sides to the issue and gives a pretty well-rounded look at it, for a fictional novel.

for example, the glaciers in Iceland are actually advancing, not receding. so how come they don't follow the trend? i thought it was "global" warming? not to mention that only a handful of glaciers (which cover 10% of the surface of the earth) are actually tracked having receded.

did you know that every so often, the earth has gone through an ice age? not all of them have been big Blockbuster movie premiere type ice ages. most of them are smaller in scale. usually they pop up every 11,000 years or so. wait, didn't i see that number somewhere?
Researchers who have recently returned from the region found that an area of permafrost spanning a million square kilometres - the size of France and Germany combined - has started to melt for the first time since it formed 11,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.
so we're due for one any time now.

terrasin
08-11-2005, 03:50 PM
I'm actually wondering if we might have scientifically missed a possibility about the earths rotation. With the dramatic weather changes that a lot of people are blaming on the quake that created the tsunami, along with the massive changes to the oceans waters that were a result of that, if there isn't a possibility over the next few years we notice a dramatic change in weather patterns all over the world because the earth has shifted. Meaning the equator is no longer in the same place, but higher up? We limit ourselves in science too much to what we believe is possible/impossible. But eevery year we turn over things we once believed could not possibably happen. How many other forces of nature are unknown to us?

Personally though, I still believe we are destroying the planet to a very unhealthy level that is soon going to be our own undoing. Fact is that the biggest masses of ice in the world are melting. Think of it as taking a huge suck on a cigarette and then blowing up a balloon. It's pretty much the effect of the emissions we are dealing with causing global heating. The issue I feel that is going to dictate the difference from ice ages 11,000 years ago to now is that 11,000 years ago, there wern't 4.5billion people killing the earth either...

CJ

bob
08-11-2005, 07:58 PM
*starts building a boat 300 cubits long and 50 cubits wide* anyone wanna help put animals on with me? :P

Isildur9473
08-11-2005, 10:25 PM
Clicky (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/12/science/earth/12climate.long.html)

Take a look at that.

justkerry
08-12-2005, 09:27 PM
Actually, this summer has probably been the coldest in Edmonton since last summer. It used to get soo hot here but not anymore. And what is the government supposed to do about this? Yeah, like you said if there's nothing we can do about it then..yeah.

ummm..note that I only skimmed the posts, this could not very well be what we're talking about. ...

NightCrawler
08-14-2005, 04:22 PM
Okay, controversy. Yes, me.

Cows (yes, I am not lying) are more harmful to our atmosphere and life than cars. Yes, this is fact.

Second, oh my gosh! Michigan (Mount Pleasant) has had its coldest summer that I can remember! Oh no! Global warming is... making... it... colder??

The ice caps!... They are receding!... They are neutralizing states -- making equilibrium. Let's all scream and shout and declare death upon us because the sun is running out of resources. Noo!! The sun is dying! Oops, nature. Should we intervene??!... Send nukes to the sun to replenish it?? ... By now you should be laughing ... as I am contrasting.

Now. ... what about this 11,000 years bit?... What ever happened to the whole young earth theory? I hold to it. Earth isn't more than 7,000 years old. If you wanna throw that out the window, fine... but let's start adopting some monkeys and train them to speak english while we are at it.

NightCrawler
08-14-2005, 04:30 PM
Yes, I (of all people) say this mockingly and without editing the above post.

FromTheInside
08-14-2005, 05:01 PM
hmmmm......

TheFireBreathes
08-14-2005, 06:39 PM
Sadly enough, the world doesn't really care about these things. They fail to see that you can't buy clean water and air and as long as the soccer moms of america can drive their 2mpg H2 Hummers, all is right with the world. More people need to wake up and understand that soon enough, probably in this lifetime by the way things are going, this planet is going to turn into Waterworld... minus Kevin Costner and cheesy story line. All anyone needs to really do is pull up google's wonderful satellite imagery system and look at the Polar Ice Caps or the constantly frozen mountains of the eastern continent and see that suddenly, things aren't as white as they were 10 years ago.

Things need to be done and yet, nothing is done. Hope you all know how to swim. Maybe I should look into getting that houseboat after all...

</setmode=treehugger>

CJ

Actually they do, I didnt get info info about it but when I was in Cananda John McCain and Hilary Clinton were coming up to work on it. The New York Times also came to get some research in the town I was visiting. Its not that the world doesnt care about these things, it's that the public just doesnt know much of it yet. Scientists up in Northern Canada are definatly working on it.

terrasin
08-14-2005, 06:51 PM
First off, your Cow theroy is correct to a point. This is only the case if cows are crowding together in large numbers. But even in San Joaquin Valley, they are still only gaining information as they are still unsure of how bad the pollution truly is. The California Dairy Association among many others believe the numbers are a crazy overestimation.

Second, you mocking is really not needed because you obviousely have no idea what in the world you're talking about. While it may have been cold in Michigan, heavy rainy season in California, and a very abnormally dry summer in Pennsylvania, there is part of a bigger picture you choose to ignore. A lot of this strange weather going on this summer, I believe, has a lot to do with the tsunami quake. As I said above, that quake changed a lot about the oceans currents and tempature which, in fact, controls our weather system.

The issue with global warming and the fact we have an ever growing hole in our ozone, which luckily, is slowing it's rate of depletion, is that the more carbon dioxide we put in the air is going to contribute to setting things in motion which can't be reversed. This is why we need to be looking at taking new steps at cleaner energy sources.

As for your comment about being a young earth believer, I don't know how someone could possibably believe all this was created in a 7000 year period. And I have no idea why you choose to bring that up with all the proof we have that the earth is much older.

CJ

justkerry
08-14-2005, 08:12 PM
Yeah while I agree with most of Jonathan's comments, I find it very difficult to believe that the earth has only been around 7 000 years. Like, the "dinosaur" era, and biblical times before and after Jesus, plus the rise of civilization and the time to wear down the atmosphere, etc... It just, yeah seems very...crammed in there or something.
And it just seems weird that the tsunami can throw things off like that. That something so far from here can affect...here.

NightCrawler
08-14-2005, 10:12 PM
First off, your Cow theroy is correct to a point. This is only the case if cows are crowding together in large numbers. But even in San Joaquin Valley, they are still only gaining information as they are still unsure of how bad the pollution truly is. The California Dairy Association among many others believe the numbers are a crazy overestimation.

I know, I exaggerated it as 'fact.' Simply because I wanted people to consider it. I have heard it on the radio, read it on the internet, and heard it from a lot of people (yes, adults) that it is 'fact.' But I am skeptical.

However, if the dairy association believed it was a true estimate, what would they do? Get rid of their capital? I think not. Remember, they want to make money, not throw it away.

Second, you mocking is really not needed because you obviousely have no idea what in the world you're talking about. While it may have been cold in Michigan, heavy rainy season in California, and a very abnormally dry summer in Pennsylvania, there is part of a bigger picture you choose to ignore. A lot of this strange weather going on this summer, I believe, has a lot to do with the tsunami quake. As I said above, that quake changed a lot about the oceans currents and tempature which, in fact, controls our weather system.

The mocking was because of how absurd (the rate of) global warming is. Temperatures flucuate from seasons, decades, and milleniae. To say that the current temperature (on average) on the overall year is the coldest it is ever going to get seems foolish. You DO know that scientists believed that we were going to die from a global winter, don't you? They changed that, however.

I know it was not 'needed.' However, I would steer clear from thinking that I have no clue as to what in the world I am talking about, and that I choose to ignore things. I will accept things when I find that they are true or logical. Not because some random survey done by some scientists make people believe that farts make our ozone deplete, or that the earth is melting. I do think our climate fluctuates, and I think the tsunami/quake is at least one idea for the cause. I just think it may be taken too far.

The issue with global warming and the fact we have an ever growing hole in our ozone, which luckily, is slowing it's rate of depletion, is that the more carbon dioxide we put in the air is going to contribute to setting things in motion which can't be reversed. This is why we need to be looking at taking new steps at cleaner energy sources.

Was meinst du?... Okay, I have people that believe the 'ozone layer' is a complete pile of pooh, and I have people that don't understand what it is. Please clarify your definition of hole for us all. (come on, this is fun)

And I do agree that we need cleaner energy sources -- this is a very good idea (especially with our oil crisis). I just don't believe that we have a huge problem that the governments around the world should be tackling -- especially out of what I think to be irrational fear.

As for your comment about being a young earth believer, I don't know how someone could possibably believe all this was created in a 7000 year period. And I have no idea why you choose to bring that up with all the proof we have that the earth is much older.

CJ

Yeah while I agree with most of Jonathan's comments, I find it very difficult to believe that the earth has only been around 7 000 years. Like, the "dinosaur" era, and biblical times before and after Jesus, plus the rise of civilization and the time to wear down the atmosphere, etc... It just, yeah seems very...crammed in there or something.
And it just seems weird that the tsunami can throw things off like that. That something so far from here can affect...here.

Okay, about 2000 from Jesus to our time, a little over 2000 from Noah to Jesus' time, and let's estimate 2000 from creation to Noah. What is wrong with this?

That comes out to almost 7,000.

I mean, I know Adam was 929 years old... and he quite a few generations (overlapping his timespan)... But What makes you people think that this has been even NEAR 11,000 years? Especially for a CYCLE?...!

4,000 years of population growing, technology developing, and land eroding... Wouldn't there be an obvious difference?

---

Hope you don't hate me... Cuz.. right now this argument seemed very... hateable (stupid rhetoric!)

justkerry
08-15-2005, 09:58 PM
Whoa! Whoa!
OK first off, I was only saying it doesn't feel like it's been 7 000 years. but hey I still can't believe it's been a year since last year.
I know you were on a little bit of a roll but I was mostly commenting. :-\

NightCrawler
08-16-2005, 07:04 PM
Kerry, ... I just was trying to state my reason for believing, I don't mean to trash you. ... Stupid rhetoric of mine, almost unavoidable.

justkerry
08-20-2005, 03:44 PM
ha ha ha..that's ok

NightCrawler
08-21-2005, 11:50 AM
This thread died. Oops.

amodman
08-21-2005, 07:11 PM
Okay, controversy. Yes, me.

Cows (yes, I am not lying) are more harmful to our atmosphere and life than cars. Yes, this is fact.

Second, oh my gosh! Michigan (Mount Pleasant) has had its coldest summer that I can remember! Oh no! Global warming is... making... it... colder??

The ice caps!... They are receding!... They are neutralizing states -- making equilibrium. Let's all scream and shout and declare death upon us because the sun is running out of resources. Noo!! The sun is dying! Oops, nature. Should we intervene??!... Send nukes to the sun to replenish it?? ... By now you should be laughing ... as I am contrasting.

Now. ... what about this 11,000 years bit?... What ever happened to the whole young earth theory? I hold to it. Earth isn't more than 7,000 years old. If you wanna throw that out the window, fine... but let's start adopting some monkeys and train them to speak english while we are at it.

Actually, I hold to the Earth being anywhere from 6-11 thousand years old...but close enough. Also, people, the math is right there in the Bible for how old the Earth was up until the flood, which came in about 1621 - and it has been proven that pre-flood cultures exceded ourselves technologically in certain areas on top of that. If they can advance so fast so soon, well, I think cutting the lifetime shorter and giving mankind 5-10 thousand more years might close the gap.

Anyways, I'm not entirely sure how exact this fact is anymore (maybe we've actually matched or exceded by now - you'll understand in a sec) but awhile back there was a study that showed one volanic eruption puts more carbon dioxide in the air than all of mankind ever has. Now I'm not saying let's just screw the enviroment, for one if we continue using the same resources and methods that we are now we'll run out of resources before we help kill the enviroment - and then we'll be in a real fix. But anyways, mr. nightcrawler was also correct here when he said -

Temperatures flucuate from seasons, decades, and milleniae. To say that the current temperature (on average) on the overall year is the coldest it is ever going to get seems foolish. You DO know that scientists believed that we were going to die from a global winter, don't you? They changed that, however.

So, scientifically, we can't even be sure how much warming cooling there really even has been! I agree there has most likely been some...but ya. Some scientists have even estimated that the overall enviroment is currently slightly cooler than at some other periods, *shrugs*.