NightCrawler
09-25-2005, 02:52 PM
Who wants to talk about time?

I believe God is outside of time. We (humans, and this dimensional plain) are bound by time. I am not sure if Angels and demons are. And I believe that this moment is just as existing as yesterday's moments, and conversely tomorrow's moments exist in the same way.

;D

Isildur9473
09-25-2005, 02:58 PM
I believe God is outside of Time as well. If he is, couldn't he change things that have already happened, and we wouldn't even know that? It's similar to the concept of time travel, at first it seems simple, just go backwards or forwards in time. Then you get into what would happen if...? And that's difficult to think about.

And from the wise words of Pink Floyd...

Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

Tired of lying in the sunshine
Staying home to watch the rain
And you are young and life is long
And there is time to kill today
And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun

And you run, and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death

Every year is getting shorter
Never seem to find the time
Plans that either come to nought
Or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desparation is the English way
The time is gone
The song is over
Thought I'd something more to say

Home, home again
I like to be here when I can
When I come home cold and tired
It's good to warm my bones beside the fire
Far away across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells

somasoul
09-25-2005, 04:52 PM
Well, Pink Floyd is nice and all but how about some Einstein? Einstein basically said that time is dependant on the position of the observer and on gravity (Which Einstein describes as a 'distortion' not a 'force'). This was all proved after WWI during a solar eclipse when the sun's gravity warped the light from far away stars. Another idea is that if someone were to travel at the speed of light he or she would age much more slowly than someone standing on the Earth. Two twins, both aged 20, would be completely different ages if one were to travel the speed of light for 30 Earth years while the other stayed behind here.

Basically, it's proven that time is totally irrelevant. So the idea of God existing outside of time is not some far fetched idea, it's been accepted scientific fact for, like, 70 years.

Read More: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/relativity/

alorian
09-25-2005, 05:17 PM
I've been thinking about this alot in the last week or two. I said a prayer, and then immediately He answered it, and I had a thought: "If I didn't pray that, would it have happened? Nah, cause it'd have to have changed in the past. WAIT, God's outside of time, isn't he? So, He very easily could've heard my prayer now and answered it then simultaneously."

TheFireBreathes
09-25-2005, 07:27 PM
Do you want to what's crazy? Since God is outside and inside of time, he could still be electing people salvation.

This was a thread I started a few months ago on time travel. Heres an intresting post that Visiousvelvet said;

"Something that seems so simple can turn out to be so entirely complex. Take light, for instance. Light is both particulate and wavelike. It is the universal unifier for both space and time. It travels at 300,000km/s and transcends time, as we know it (relative to earth). We are all aware that time is indeed but relative to the observer's vantage point. How one twin can travel to space and return to the other twin. Yet the earth twin will have aged twenty years, whereas the space twin has only aged a few "days". Quite an interesting concept.

I liked the theory that wikipedia brought up. How God can exist at every individual point in time. It was hypothesized that time continues on in all dimensions. That yesterday is still existing. Just in a different dimension. That tomorrow is existing, in a different dimension. Put this theory into practice and you will realize that every sin you have ever committed is still existing. Right now. If you think about how God forgives you of your hell-bound actions...he transcends time as we know it, and cleanses us. Wiping those dimensions clean of sin, as though we never even committed the act.

Another concept to be discussed could be that of "infinity". What are it's limitations? Is it bound by any forces outside of our own human perception? (space, time, quantity). Why do we see recurring themes of infinity throughout our universe? (God is both the beginning and the end, after destruction, the beginning comes once more, it is hypothesized that our universe is a closed system) It seems that scientists cannot find an end to the intricacies of our human bodies. As soon as they find the smallest particle to the atom, they find an even smaller particle. Right now, they are unable to observe quarks. There is so much out there that we are still unaware of- despite our high-tech equipment. Perhaps the earth was made to forever exist in "infinity" until sin entered the world. Is infinity the equivalent of perfection?"

NightCrawler
09-25-2005, 09:24 PM
Well, what do you think about time being dependant on energy?

Like, the more energy the less time transpires, as with Einstein's theory of relativity.

But I was then thinking, could it be that since (usable) energy is decreasing, time is increasing rate? Or rather, that the previous sentence is self explanatory.

And I should correct my wording, God is not bound by time, not that he is not inside time. Plus, it explains the whole foreknowledge deal in Romans 9 quite easily.

I wondered the whole different dimension for each time deal, namely because of Trunks going back in time and everything (Dragonball Z ;D)... and all that jazz. But, I don't believe it.

NightCrawler
09-25-2005, 09:34 PM
I've been thinking about this alot in the last week or two. I said a prayer, and then immediately He answered it, and I had a thought: "If I didn't pray that, would it have happened? Nah, cause it'd have to have changed in the past. WAIT, God's outside of time, isn't he? So, He very easily could've heard my prayer now and answered it then simultaneously."

Interesting thing was that I had similar deal.

Only mine was in recalling how about almost a year ago a girl on a forum I was on said she was committing suicide and that she would never return. She downed pills and everything.

I didn't see it until the next day, but I prayed nonetheless.

I prayed (I am not sure exactly how/why I got so specific with my prayer) that she would :
1) Be found
2) ... by her mother
3) ... while on the floor unconscious
4) ... taken to the hospital and had her stomach pumped
5) ... be alive ...

Each thing happened the night she downed the pills. But, what the crap? I prayed it almost 24 hours after the fact, and had no update!

So, was the prayer transcending time because the listener is not bound by time? Or, was I praying that because God gave me the words that lined up with His will?

Mr. Xcitement
09-26-2005, 01:42 AM
I forget the scientists name, he is relatively new out there and kind of young, but he says that time is not a dimension, and just something that we use to go about our life, because you can be riding a train, and in the future, you will see some trees, maybe a road, but if someone is in a helicopter above the train, he can see your future, because he can already see what you cannot. Also, the guy said something about the theory of time states, that in time, there are moments, like a freeze frame type thing, and he said if you take a ball or something, and move it across a desk, at what point did that ball stand still? I do believe God can do what ever He wants, but I don't think He would actually go and change the past, I know we would have no way of knowing if He did, my reason is, is because God gave us all free will, and if He went and changed so say, I never got my licence, that would be taking away my free will, and I personally don't think God would do that.

NightCrawler
09-26-2005, 11:38 AM
I see no reason to change the past, whether we have freewill or not. If we don't have freewill, it would've gone according to His plan the first time (or do you think God makes mistakes?).

terrasin
09-26-2005, 02:25 PM
Time does not exist. :>

CJ

TheFireBreathes
09-26-2005, 03:08 PM
Time does not exist. :>

CJ

Yup, time is man made.

NightCrawler
09-26-2005, 05:43 PM
Time is an abstract concept made by carbon-based life forms to monitor their ongoing decay.

newday_7
09-26-2005, 07:45 PM
alot of people think that time is like a line so like it's always there so that's how to go to the past or future(no one's done it but some people still believ it) but i have a theory that time is like a moving dot...once u've past a point it's gone there's nuthing to go back to so there couldn't be a way to go to the past cuz there it doesn't exist anymore and the future doesn't exist either cuz it has been made yet or w/e so there's no way to go there either

skynes
09-27-2005, 04:29 AM
As Terry Pratchett once put it (not exact words)

time is like a flowing river... To move further along it takes a lot of energy. Moving backwards takes LOTS more energy, because you're going against the flow.

However, should you change absolutely anything in the past. Congratulations...

You just wiped out your entire universe.

It will never happen. You have killed everyone.

NightCrawler
09-27-2005, 08:43 AM
/\ The fact that we exist now is proof that no one has gone into the past, and no one will ever go into the past?

riz
09-27-2005, 10:15 AM
If that were the case and - hypothetically - people HAVE gone into the past, no one would know about the outcomes except for those going into the past and those to whom the person going into the past came in contact with. None of us would have any recollection of whichever changes were to have taken place - plus (and here's the tricky thing about 'time travel') these changes have already come into fruition, because all the changes that have happened in the past would have directly affected what the present and future would be after the changes were to have taken place.

NightCrawler
09-27-2005, 10:45 AM
But wouldn't those changes have destroyed our existance? I mean, sure the past would've changed and thus the future would've had such change automatically, but if there were changes made in the first place, the fibric of time would unravel.

This makes it tempting to create a flux capacitor :evil:

TheFireBreathes
09-27-2005, 04:30 PM
But wouldn't those changes have destroyed our existance? I mean, sure the past would've changed and thus the future would've had such change automatically, but if there were changes made in the first place, the fibric of time would unravel.

This makes it tempting to create a flux capacitor :evil:

I don't know, it depends what you do when you go back in time. If you went back to say the 1400's and introduced guns sure we Might be dead but you never know the probabilities of doing that. The guy you introduced the gun to could of died 10 years later in a war which wasn't supposed to be won (Because of you introducing the guns).

Or if you take it as in that movie A Sound Of Thunder where as all he does was step on a butterfly and that effects the future greatly. You just never know what tiny things are going to happen.

NightCrawler
09-27-2005, 11:27 PM
The Butterfly Effect, anyone see that? It looked quite interesting, but the previews made it apparent that it had some parts I didn't care to watch.

skilltroks
09-28-2005, 01:49 PM
Time is like money to me. IE money isn't backed by anything. We trust that the dollar is worth a dollar. If authority said a dollar is worth a quarter we'd have to believe that. Therefore, we trust that fifteen minutes is worth fifteen minutes. [I think the debate is much more complex then I think.]

alorian
09-28-2005, 02:11 PM
Tangent: Butterfly Effect? Horrible, horrible movie. I walked out. God didn't want me there.

riz
09-28-2005, 04:18 PM
I don't know, it depends what you do when you go back in time. If you went back to say the 1400's and introduced guns sure we Might be dead but you never know the probabilities of doing that. The guy you introduced the gun to could of died 10 years later in a war which wasn't supposed to be won (Because of you introducing the guns).

But see, if that happened, we wouldn't all be dead! Attempting have you've said couldn't be done, because the past HAS already happened and no one that far back in the past ever HAD a gun. To change the past would mean that everything after that section of time would have changed as a result. No one relives the past - so what's in the past is in the past. If you attempted to go to the past and introduce guns, you'd probably fail. Simple as that.

The big quandary happens if you die in the past. That means your present self will be dead, and therefore at the moment when you traveled in the past, you'd die and never actually, tangibly return to the present. Confused yet?

And don't even bring up The Butterfly Effect again in this thread. Please.

TheFireBreathes
09-28-2005, 07:41 PM
But see, if that happened, we wouldn't all be dead! Attempting have you've said couldn't be done, because the past HAS already happened and no one that far back in the past ever HAD a gun. To change the past would mean that everything after that section of time would have changed as a result. No one relives the past - so what's in the past is in the past. If you attempted to go to the past and introduce guns, you'd probably fail. Simple as that.

The big quandary happens if you die in the past. That means your present self will be dead, and therefore at the moment when you traveled in the past, you'd die and never actually, tangibly return to the present. Confused yet?

And don't even bring up The Butterfly Effect again in this thread. Please.

How would you fail? I mean there are some reasons you could, but then there are other reasons where intrudicing guns at that early of a stage could casue world catatrophe.

unshakeable15
09-28-2005, 08:55 PM
i read a series of kids books back in the day where three friends traveled back in time: first to stop the Titanic from sinking, then to observe the American Revolution, then to try and prevent Lincoln's assassination (there might have been more, but i never say any other books). the kids theorized that the reason they couldn't stop the Titanic's demise or the assassination was because you cannot change the past. at most you can observe, but what's happened is done and you can't affect that.

again, this is a children's book series (and not a particularly excellen one, like the Wrinkle in Time series) so i'm not sure how right on it is, but it sounds very plausible.

NightCrawler
09-29-2005, 08:45 AM
The big quandary happens if you die in the past. That means your present self will be dead, and therefore at the moment when you traveled in the past, you'd die and never actually, tangibly return to the present. Confused yet?
I have seen way too many movies and TV shows to be confused by that paradox.

Mr. Xcitement
09-29-2005, 09:41 AM
Even if people just went back in time to watch and not interfere, we would probably know about it, because I feel that one of the major thing people would go back to see is Jesus, which brings me to the idea that you cannot go back in time, because if God is not held by time, then since Jesus is sitting on his right side, then He wouldn't be there when you got there, so that means you cannot go back, it has happened, and is done. I also feel the future is not yet made, so you cannot go into the future either.

TheFireBreathes
09-29-2005, 05:38 PM
What is the whole deal with black holes? Isnt it if you go inside one of them time completely stops?

NightCrawler
09-29-2005, 10:20 PM
What is the whole deal with black holes? Isnt it if you go inside one of them time completely stops?
Black holes aren't even remotely proved to exist.

NightCrawler
01-18-2006, 07:42 PM
Interesting thing to consider:

My sister was messing with some nail polish when we were watching TV in my parent's room. Now, this itself wasn't odd (except that it is not very common). But the bottle of nail polish remover tipped and ...my sister caught it.

I thought about it for about 5 seconds. Spoke up "it was never going to fall on the floor"

Her reply, which made me smirk, "No, because I caught it."

Application, or at least what I got out of it:

It was always going to be the case that she would catch it, proven simply in hindsight that it happened that way. If it didn't tip, she wouldn't have caught it (simply because... she couldn't). And since it tipped and it was the case that she saw it, everything was set in time that it was going to happen that way. She caught it. Nothing different 'could have' happened.

:-D

disciple
01-18-2006, 08:01 PM
You basically just said that what happened happened and couldn't happen any other way. :D

NightCrawler
01-18-2006, 08:24 PM
:: embarrassed? ::

Right ... but... it inductively can be inferred that it was always going to be that way, in that the future is set.


>_>

disciple
01-18-2006, 08:36 PM
Right, what's going to happen will happen and won't happen any other way. :)

skynes
01-19-2006, 01:11 AM
But the concept of a set future denies the inclusion of Free Will and the ability of a man to alter his own destiny.

NightCrawler
01-19-2006, 01:56 PM
Scott, like I'm worried about that ;)

skynes
01-19-2006, 01:57 PM
You dirty little Calvinist. ;)

NightCrawler
01-19-2006, 02:00 PM
Psh, ... I have a new approach to that whole deal. :P

But I won't deny being dirty. I need to take a shower, bleh.

And you are a bit taller than me, I think...

skynes
01-19-2006, 02:02 PM
6'4". Look up. lol

So whats the new approach?

NightCrawler
01-19-2006, 02:05 PM
"Neither."

Don't know what that leaves us... but I can't accept either. And I don't think it is both, yet -- like you have suggested.

kittygirl
01-21-2006, 12:33 PM
"You do not have, because you do not ask."~Jesus

End of story.

unshakeable15
01-21-2006, 10:59 PM
this discussion is reminding me of Douglas Adams. there's a string of quotes at the beginning of one of his books (can't find which one right now) that sums that up perfectly.

but so as not to be off-topic, i'll throw another Adam's quote about time out here.

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

NightCrawler
01-22-2006, 11:38 AM
I've heard that quote, I wonder'd where it came from.

disciple
01-22-2006, 03:18 PM
I agree with that quote. :D

alorian
01-22-2006, 03:21 PM
But of course!!

unshakeable15
01-26-2006, 04:19 PM
this discussion is reminding me of Douglas Adams. there's a string of quotes at the beginning of one of his books (can't find which one right now) that sums that up perfectly.
found it. :) it's at the beginning of "Mostly Harmless."

Anything that happens, happens.

Anything that, in happening, caues something else to happen, causes something else to happen.

Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.

It doesn't neccessarily do it in chronological order though.

Divine Mystery
01-27-2006, 04:42 PM
Wow, I'm sure late in fiding this topic...darn...(Golly I always do this, heh, forgive my "lateness" here) Interesting discusion. I really like this kind of stuff. somasoul and others, I've read some of your quotes and a bit of the material [about dimensions, Einstein's theory, time being nonexistant, etc.] before and I definitely agree. Right on.

NightCrawler
04-28-2006, 06:18 AM
If time doesn't really exist, doesn't that force believes to be Open Theists? (some of them believe that God cannot know the future because it doesn't exist yet. He makes it happen according to His plan when He feels like it, for example: fulfillment prophesies...)

"Open theism, also known as free will theism and openness, is the teaching that God does not know all things. That is, He does not know the free will choices that people will make in the future because God either chooses not to know or because the future isn't knowable."
http://www.carm.org/open.htm

amodman
05-01-2006, 09:12 AM
Wow, how did I miss this thread? Is it just me, or did you post the same damn topic twice, Jonathan? Lol. Remember temporal theory? I do, I recently nabbed my post from it, edited it, and posted it as a blog on my myspace (and it's surprisingly on topic considering that was a completely different thread :P) - A Matter Of Time (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=20674565&blogID=111618959&MyToken=3cf9af41-136b-4ad2-a652-a221461229cb).

TheFireBreathes
05-01-2006, 10:23 AM
Interesting thing was that I had similar deal.

Only mine was in recalling how about almost a year ago a girl on a forum I was on said she was committing suicide and that she would never return. She downed pills and everything.

I didn't see it until the next day, but I prayed nonetheless.

I prayed (I am not sure exactly how/why I got so specific with my prayer) that she would :
1) Be found
2) ... by her mother
3) ... while on the floor unconscious
4) ... taken to the hospital and had her stomach pumped
5) ... be alive ...

Each thing happened the night she downed the pills. But, what the crap? I prayed it almost 24 hours after the fact, and had no update!

So, was the prayer transcending time because the listener is not bound by time? Or, was I praying that because God gave me the words that lined up with His will?

I dont know if this answers it but its still pretty crazy.

I heard that if soemone asks you to pray for them at a certain time, but you forget and remember after the event took place, you can still pray and make it count because of how God is outside of time.

amodman
05-01-2006, 10:26 AM
I dont know if this answers it but its still pretty crazy.

I heard that if soemone asks you to pray for them at a certain time, but you forget and remember after the event took place, you can still pray and make it count because of how God is outside of time.

Or do you mean because of how God is time? ;) Sorry, had to.

TheFireBreathes
05-01-2006, 10:31 AM
perhaps. i guess it could go both ways.

TheFireBreathes
05-01-2006, 10:36 AM
The big quandary happens if you die in the past. That means your present self will be dead, and therefore at the moment when you traveled in the past, you'd die and never actually, tangibly return to the present. Confused yet?

Yes I am greatly confused. If you died in the past (going back in time), would that mean that none of your friends never even knew who you were? Would all of their memories and objects you left behind simply vanish? almost like you never existed? But what if you were someone who revolutionized something? Maybe you invented the ipod, what that all dissapear too?

amodman
05-01-2006, 10:49 AM
Yes I am greatly confused. If you died in the past (going back in time), would that mean that none of your friends never even knew who you were? Would all of their memories and objects you left behind simply vanish? almost like you never existed? But what if you were someone who revolutionized something? Maybe you invented the ipod, what that all dissapear too?

Eh, I try not to figure out impossible situations (IMO - blog).

NightCrawler
05-03-2006, 09:13 AM
Yes I am greatly confused. If you died in the past (going back in time), would that mean that none of your friends never even knew who you were? Would all of their memories and objects you left behind simply vanish? almost like you never existed? But what if you were someone who revolutionized something? Maybe you invented the ipod, what that all dissapear too?
No, not disappear (like in Back To The Future... with his picture or his hand), because the future would have to play out accordingly and thus it never existed ...so it doesn't disappear, everything just instantly changes. That's right, Marty McFly wouldn't have known he had brothers in the first place. The movie has errors :O

skynes
05-03-2006, 10:39 AM
I dont know if this answers it but its still pretty crazy.

I heard that if soemone asks you to pray for them at a certain time, but you forget and remember after the event took place, you can still pray and make it count because of how God is outside of time.

That was said by me I believe :P

disciple
05-03-2006, 10:49 AM
That would be good for forgetful people like me. :D

No, not disappear (like in Back To The Future... with his picture or his hand), because the future would have to play out accordingly and thus it never existed ...so it doesn't disappear, everything just instantly changes. That's right, Marty McFly wouldn't have known he had brothers in the first place. The movie has errors :O
But it's still a good movie. :P

TheFireBreathes
05-03-2006, 11:05 AM
That was said by me I believe :P


Yeah probably.

NightCrawler
05-03-2006, 07:40 PM
So it is relative to the person praying? As in, his knowledge allows him to ask God and God will respond because of that?... Hmmmmmmm

NightCrawler
08-11-2006, 02:36 PM
BUMP!

okay, so if time is just a shift of energy, or rather just 'change'... then what does that mean about the 'past'? Wouldn't that mean that IF the past still exists (just inaccessible to us), then wouldn't that mean that the matter must exist in an unchanged state & changed state or would it mean a multiple layered/dimensioned matter existance?

skynes
08-14-2006, 01:32 AM
Films strip!

That's how I've been looking at time recently. Each second is a frame of a film strip.

We need to watch it one second at a time, but God transcends time, He knows EXACTLY what will happen, cause He's seen the movie so many times before.

Whether someone dies in the first frame, or the last. they both enter Eternity the same way, so they will both be beside one another, both thinking they died centuries apart, yet as far as Eternity is concerned, it was simultaneous.

lamb_servant72
08-14-2006, 02:52 AM
I dont know if this answers it but its still pretty crazy.

I heard that if soemone asks you to pray for them at a certain time, but you forget and remember after the event took place, you can still pray and make it count because of how God is outside of time.

Actually, I said that. I can't really take credit, though...it came from a sermon I heard on the radio years ago.

NightCrawler
08-14-2006, 07:15 AM
Films strip!

That's how I've been looking at time recently. Each second is a frame of a film strip.
.00001 Nanoseconds?

We need to watch it one second at a time, but God transcends time, He knows EXACTLY what will happen, cause He's seen the movie so many times before.
Or maybe because he made the movie ;)

Whether someone dies in the first frame, or the last. they both enter Eternity the same way, so they will both be beside one another, both thinking they died centuries apart, yet as far as Eternity is concerned, it was simultaneous.
That sounds about right. But can you really skip ahead in the film? Can film frames be abridged? As in, while the film strip is essentially a 2 dimensional plane, can the strip be bent (as it would go around a reel) and touch, making some kind of connection from one frame to another?

skynes
08-14-2006, 07:43 AM
That sounds about right. But can you really skip ahead in the film? Can film frames be abridged? As in, while the film strip is essentially a 2 dimensional plane, can the strip be bent (as it would go around a reel) and touch, making some kind of connection from one frame to another?

Nightcrawler.... Shaddap... lol

I was just thinking on how eternity would work. Two people, 1000 years apart, both enter eternity the same time. They're before God at judgement at the same time.

How? Because of time.

If Time is as movie frames, be it the first or last frame, the moment you leave that frame, you're in the real world. Doesn't matter when it happens MOVIE time, it's still gonna pop out in REAL time.

dawn of light
08-14-2006, 07:46 AM
I heard that if soemone asks you to pray for them at a certain time, but you forget and remember after the event took place, you can still pray and make it count because of how God is outside of time.

I'm not sure if I agree with that. God is outside of time, but He created time and placed our world within the confines of His creation, time. By that logic you'd be able to change the present by praying about that past. What if your parents got divorced. Could you pray about the way your dad and mom used to treat each other and hope that when you open your eyes they'd be together? Or what your brother was killed. Could you pray that they'd never have gotten into the car with the drunk driver and you'd open your eyes to find that he was in his room sleeping?

I think that after an event has already happened all you can do, is pray for the situation going forward, not about the past.

That sounds about right. But can you really skip ahead in the film? Can film frames be abridged? As in, while the film strip is essentially a 2 dimensional plane, can the strip be bent (as it would go around a reel) and touch, making some kind of connection from one frame to another?

I see what you're saying. God is not bound by the confines of time because He created time. But I think that since God created our world to be bound by time, it'll stay that way. If God wanted to change events in the world that have been affected by time, I don't think He would have created it (time) in the first place. God must have created time for a purpose (maybe so our small brains can comprehend the world easier! :P ). Anyway, He must have had a purpose for confining the world within time so messing around with it ("bending the film strip") I think might just contradict His original purpose.

NightCrawler
08-14-2006, 08:06 AM
I'm not sure if I agree with that. God is outside of time, but He created time and placed our world within the confines of His creation, time. By that logic you'd be able to change the present by praying about that past. What if your parents got divorced. Could you pray about the way your dad and mom used to treat each other and hope that when you open your eyes they'd be together? Or what your brother was killed. Could you pray that they'd never have gotten into the car with the drunk driver and you'd open your eyes to find that he was in his room sleeping?

I think that after an event has already happened all you can do, is pray for the situation going forward, not about the past.

Well, think about the condition he posed: You don't know about the event's outcome that has already happened. And to me that does make sense, as it is the heart that matters.

lamb_servant72
08-14-2006, 08:11 AM
Scott, that is a really cool analogy.

But, what about humans that are still in the movie strip (what we perceive as "real life") and they have an experience where they are seeing/talking to people who are out of the strip ("dead"). Like when Samuel talked to Saul after Samuel "died". (I'll use a Biblical example for those who may question a "modern day" example...I wouldn't want this to go off topic!)

How would that fit in to your analogy?

Samuel was not still in the strip, right? So, if we are all taken out at the same time, where was he?

disciple
08-14-2006, 07:19 PM
That "bending" thing... so reminded me of wormholes. Theoretical physics... as good use of my time as laying down and just thinking about whatever pops into my mind. ;)

I think the idea of the universe being bent to travel through wormholes to get from Point A to Point B faster than the speed of light is a bit like balogna. :P

But, that's not technically about Time...

TheFireBreathes
08-14-2006, 08:13 PM
Films strip!

That's how I've been looking at time recently. Each second is a frame of a film strip.


Have you ever heard of the arrow paradox?

Zeno of elea once thought that if you when you shoot an arrow, well basically it doesn't move. Here is the actual explanation of it from wikipedia:

"If everything when it occupies an equal space is at rest, and if that which is in locomotion is always occupying such a space at any moment, the flying arrow is therefore motionless." (Aristotle Physics VI:9, 239b5)

Finally, in the arrow paradox, we imagine an arrow in flight. At every moment in time, the arrow is located at a specific position. If the moment is just a single instant, then the arrow does not have time to move and is at rest during that instant. Now, during the following instances, it then must also be at rest for the same reason. The arrow is always at rest and cannot move: motion is impossible.

TheFireBreathes
08-14-2006, 08:17 PM
That "bending" thing... so reminded me of wormholes. Theoretical physics... as good use of my time as laying down and just thinking about whatever pops into my mind. ;)

I think the idea of the universe being bent to travel through wormholes to get from Point A to Point B faster than the speed of light is a bit like balogna. :P

But, that's not technically about Time...


And I just got reminded of Donnie Darko...

skynes
08-15-2006, 12:20 AM
Scott, that is a really cool analogy.

But, what about humans that are still in the movie strip (what we perceive as "real life") and they have an experience where they are seeing/talking to people who are out of the strip ("dead"). Like when Samuel talked to Saul after Samuel "died". (I'll use a Biblical example for those who may question a "modern day" example...I wouldn't want this to go off topic!)

How would that fit in to your analogy?

Samuel was not still in the strip, right? So, if we are all taken out at the same time, where was he?

I don't think it does fit...

If my hand was forced, I'd say God fast forwarded Samuel to when he was summoned :P

But really it was just a way to explain how two people dying 1000 years apart both confront God at the exact same moment.

Some would say the first guy got judged 1000 years ago so you'd never see him at the judgement seat.

Yet the Bible says that there is ONE day of Judgement.
But it also says that after you die, you are judged. (Heb 9:27)

By having time as I said, both make sense without contradiction.

lamb_servant72
08-15-2006, 03:10 AM
Yes, it would.

But, I know a pastor who saw his wife about three days after she died before the throne of God worshipping Him. This man is the most honest person I have ever met.

Revelation does talk about different types of judgements, maybe the ONE judgement is the final White Throne Judgement for all. I think we started talking about this somewhere else last year. (I don't have time to look it up right now, gotta go to work!)

This time analogy with the bent film reminds me of the book A Wrinkle in Time. It used a similar analogy with a cloth instead of film and a wrinkle instead of a bend.

dawn of light
08-15-2006, 05:42 AM
I'm pretty sure there are different kinds of judgement. I think that your heart gets judged at the time you die, whether you are a follower of Christ or not. The White Throne Judgement is only one day where everyone's works get judged and rewarded. Like when Jesus said that even giving a simple glass of water would be remembered and recieve a reward. (I think anyway, correct me if I'm wrong).

Well, think about the condition he posed: You don't know about the event's outcome that has already happened. And to me that does make sense, as it is the heart that matters.

Now I understand a little better. You can't just pray to change the past but perhaps if you pray without knowing the outcome God can still use your prayers to strengthen that person or help that situation. That actually makes now to me because even if God doesn't "sidestep" time to change that event, He knows the future and that you'll pray for the situation. *mini revelation*