SkFan1983
10-08-2005, 08:02 PM
This is something I wonder about.

Mr. Xcitement
10-08-2005, 08:15 PM
He allows them to happen for us to learn, at least that is my view, sometimes in order for someone to learn and grow in life, you must allow them to get hurt.

sky_flashings
10-08-2005, 09:02 PM
If everything went perfect and peachy, would we see a reason to need God or turn to him?

Spiffles
10-08-2005, 09:52 PM
God gave humans the right to choose, to decide, and God not only wants us to make our own choices but to live with the consequences of what we choose whether good or bad.
If he didnt then we would be all mindless clones worshipping him without a choice.

The other reason is because as humankind, we have turned our back on God. God will turn his back on those who turn their back on him. It happened to Jesus on the cross as well, God had to turn away because of all the Sin.
Same basic principal in all these sorts of situations.

Well, thats my oppinions on it anyway :)

theelectric3
10-08-2005, 11:10 PM
a lot of times the things that happen to us are a direct result of our actions. if we chose to rebel against God and do our own thing...we'll reap the consequences.

and sometimes the Lord will lead us to a place to be tempted (though He Himself does not tempt us with evil because in Him there is no evil). why? because our faith needs to be tested to see if we really believe in Him like we say we do when we are comfortable. But He is faithful because in every situation where we are faced with temptation, He provides a way of escape (should we chose to listen to Him and follow His leading).

skynes
10-09-2005, 06:04 AM
You also have to think, Why do WE allow it to happen.

Why say "Why does God let people in 3rd world countries suffer poverty?"
When you're sitting nice and rich with plenty of extra money

Why say "Why doesn't God help the homeless people"
When you don't invite anyone in your home.

Why say "Why doesn't God provide food for the hungry?"
When you don't help them one bit

Why say "Why does God allow rapes and murders?"
When you won't pester the government for better law enforcement.


In Israel, every 7 years, everyone was to bring 10% of what they earned and put it into the temple. The priests in the temple then used that money to look after Widows and Orphans and homless people etc.

Every 50 years, all debts were abolished. All land returned to their original families. All money owed was declared void.

So many people go into retirement age with debt hanging round their head, which then gets passed on to their children who have debts of their own.

Many of the 'Evils' in this world can be avoided if people got off their butts and started doing what God told them to! Poverty and hunger and homelessness would not exist if people weren't so selfish.


Outside of that, life isn't fair. We brought it on ourselves, Deal with it. God has done plenty to try and fix it (i.e. death of his own Son, how much more can he do!?), but if mankind refuses his help, they have no reason to complain about the evils of the world.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot live a life of sin and evil and then expect God to magically wave His hand and get rid of all the consequences of sin in the world.

Mr. Xcitement
10-09-2005, 07:28 AM
I must say that I do not agree with spiffles, God does not turn His back on people, even if you're living in sin, because if you turn to God and ask for forgiveness, you will receive it, people turn their backs on God, but He will never turn His back on you.

alorian
10-09-2005, 10:18 AM
It comes down to two words: free will. If God allowed only good things, that'd take away our free will.

TheFireBreathes
10-09-2005, 02:40 PM
Its annoying that natural disasters are often termed "acts of God" while no "credit" is given to God for years, and decades of peacefull weather. He created the whole universe and its and the laws of nature and most of them are His laws at work.

In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to demonstrate the consequences sin has had on Creation.
Romans 8:19-21 tells us, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was made to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

Why did God allow 250,000 people to die in the Tsunami? Why were millions of homes destroyed in Hurrican Katrina? I dont know, but I do know God is good. Look at all of the miracles that people have to share around the world that could of not happend in these disasters.

NightCrawler
10-09-2005, 05:31 PM
It comes down to two words: free will. If God allowed only good things, that'd take away our free will.
That makes no sense.

1) How does it take away our freewill?
2) Who are you, O Man, to talk back to God? -- freewill?

Spiffles
10-09-2005, 07:12 PM
I must say that I do not agree with spiffles, God does not turn His back on people, even if you're living in sin, because if you turn to God and ask for forgiveness, you will receive it, people turn their backs on God, but He will never turn His back on you.

God said that if we deny him he will deny us. It's in the bible, (sorry, cant remember verse/s of top of my head and at lunch with not enough time to search)

If we turn back to God, then yes, he will accept us, but if we deny him, then he will deny us.

TheFireBreathes
10-09-2005, 07:18 PM
God said that if we deny him he will deny us. It's in the bible, (sorry, cant remember verse/s of top of my head and at lunch with not enough time to search)

If we turn back to God, then yes, he will accept us, but if we deny him, then he will deny us.

I don't know about that one. God still loves us even if we don't believe in Him, so what would make Him deny us?

cute*sweetie*18
10-09-2005, 08:40 PM
I think that when bad things happen to us its not because God is against us and wants to hurt us but in this world there are going to be bad things but i think Jesus wants us to come to Him I think we need to understand that we have to rely on Him for comfort so when bad things happen we know that we have Him and He will be there if we just go to Him

Mr. Xcitement
10-10-2005, 01:18 AM
And I agree on the free will part, if there was no evil, we would not have free will, well at least not complete free will, because it would mean that we could not make the choice to do bad things, and although that would be real nice and fix the world up a lot, it wouldn't be right, because then we wouldn't have complete free will.

drumchick101
10-10-2005, 01:14 PM
ya, there are so many reasons and most of the things i would have said have been said already. but remember, GOD DOESNT WANT BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN TO US. although all of you know that...for those of you that may not.

but the one thing i thought of that wasnt mentioned is that yes, we do put ourselves in deep crap a lot (@ least i do..) so this kind of goes w/ that. wen we do not do things according to God's will (whether its in the Bible or its something specific He told to do or not do) we step out of His protection (b/c disobeying is a sin and God cannot exist in sin, thats the short version) therefore giving satan a foothold to walk all over us. trust me....ive done this all too many things w/ things that i thought was right but didnt bother to ask God...stupid me...again

><sarah><

katarina08
10-10-2005, 01:33 PM
I have asked God that question so many times! He lets things like that happen(at least to me) because there was something that I needed to learn and maybe that was the best way to show me.

Also,it could be that when something bad happens it is God's judgement.

just my thoughts on the subject.

NightCrawler
10-10-2005, 05:17 PM
And I agree on the free will part, if there was no evil, we would not have free will, well at least not complete free will, because it would mean that we could not make the choice to do bad things, and although that would be real nice and fix the world up a lot, it wouldn't be right, because then we wouldn't have complete free will.
Yeah, that whole Adam and Eve deal proved they didn't have freewill.

Spiffles
10-10-2005, 06:02 PM
Yeah, that whole Adam and Eve deal proved they didn't have freewill.

Sure they had free will. They choose what they did, they suffered the consequences of what they did.
They could have said no to the devil and not eat the fruit, but they choose to eat it.. thats free will to me..

Unless there is some other point about them that brings you to that statement that i've missed..??

Mr. Xcitement
10-11-2005, 01:28 AM
exatcly what I would have said, well in similar terms at least, Adam and Eve did have free will, they could have decided not to eat the apple, if people did not have the choice to do evil, then adam and eve would never have been able to eat the apple, and we wouldn't be here, and there would be no sin.

skynes
10-11-2005, 01:39 AM
And I agree on the free will part, if there was no evil, we would not have free will, well at least not complete free will, because it would mean that we could not make the choice to do bad things, and although that would be real nice and fix the world up a lot, it wouldn't be right, because then we wouldn't have complete free will.

Evil is something that is not good. It itself isn't an entity that exists. When you choose to do evil, you're not chosing some 'thing'. You're choosing to do something that isn't good.

We have complete free will, but the existance of evil isn't why we have free will.

NightCrawler
10-11-2005, 08:26 AM
My point is, how is free will being threatened by a perfect world? In the case of Adam and Eve, they had no death and millions of other imperfections we have today. They had a perfect world -- yet they had free will, according do you. This contracticts your other statement -- if bad things happened (imperfect world) we would not have free will.

Mr. Xcitement
10-11-2005, 10:20 AM
that is not what I said, I was saying that if bad things "didn't" happen, then we wouldn't have free will, the only way we would, is if we always made the right choice.

Spiffles
10-11-2005, 01:23 PM
My point is, how is free will being threatened by a perfect world? In the case of Adam and Eve, they had no death and millions of other imperfections we have today. They had a perfect world -- yet they had free will, according do you. This contracticts your other statement -- if bad things happened (imperfect world) we would not have free will.

Adam and Eve had the ability to change what they where in (which they did). Yes, at the start, they didnt have it around them, but at any point in time they could have choosen to do whatever..anything..
Adam and Eve always had the choice.
Imperfection and all that other garbage was already around. (satan had already been cast out of heaven before then and thus creating a lot of various not good things)
Anyway, my point is, Adam and Eve at any point in time could have choosen whatever they wanted to. they did have the free will.


Free will is about having a choice. God wants us to make choices, and he also wants us to deal with the consequences of what we choose and the affects it has on the world. Yes, he wants our choice to be him and to worship him. Thats why we are created, but there is no pleasure in creating mindless choicless drones to worship him.

alorian
10-11-2005, 04:01 PM
That makes no sense.

1) How does it take away our freewill?
2) Who are you, O Man, to talk back to God? -- freewill?


1) If there was only good, we'd only be able to make good decision. The best decision ever? PUtting faith in and trusting God. We'd essentially be forced into that decision. Hence we'd lose free will. We'd lose the choice between good and evil because evil wouldn't exist. Does that make sense?

2) Which meaning of "talk back" do you mean? I assume backtalk, but that comes way out of left field, so far, in fact, that it's right field.

skilltroks
10-11-2005, 05:18 PM
Romans 5. God loves us.

justkerry
10-11-2005, 07:50 PM
Well it basically comes down to this, any world problems are because of man. Somehwere along the line, someone made a decision and now there are consequences.
The "acts of God" are because as we humands inherit sin, so is also a curse on the world and it's just like that verse whats-their-face mentioned in like one of the first posts from Romans 8.
Next, everything that happens, happens for a reason. Oftentimes we get "big heads" and God needs to bring us back to reality. That happens to me all the time. And I like the quote that goes "it's not like God is up there wringing his hands going 'oh my what just happened?' or 'how am I going to fix this'?" No, God works in mysterious ways and no one will ever know the reasons why he does things. In my Theology class, or maybe it was a different class....ok I think it was a different class, but we talked about how we shouldn't worry about how God did things, but to get to know the God who did them. (or something along those lines)

(And not that i'm discouraging a little discussion. I just got a little carried away and my fingers just kept typing. so yeah, sorry)

skynes
10-12-2005, 12:36 AM
If there was only good, we'd only be able to make good decision. The best decision ever? PUtting faith in and trusting God. We'd essentially be forced into that decision. Hence we'd lose free will. We'd lose the choice between good and evil because evil wouldn't exist. Does that make sense?


I disagree. I do not see evil as an existing entity but as an absence of good. You do not 'choose' evil, you choose do something 'Not-good'. In the original world there was nothing but good (Im not including fallen angels). Adamn's choice was choose God or choose not-God. Evil does not need to exist for that choice to be made.


Cold does not exist, it is an absence of heat. Dark does not exist, it is an absence of light. So likewise Evil does not exist, it is a non-good.

You talk of evil like its an existing thing, which it's not. Evil is a word we use to describe something that is not good.

alorian
10-12-2005, 05:38 PM
Gah, you're going to make me think about my answer and wording, aren't you? Grargh, alrighty then.

Scenario: God doesn't allow anything "bad" to happen. Wouldn't not choosing to accept the Lord as one's saviour be classified as "bad"? Therefore, God wouldn't let that happen. Wouldn't allowing us to be greedy, lustful, lazy etc be classified as "bad"? That would mean we wouldn't be able to lay on the couch instead of mowing the lawn. We wouldn't be able to look at someone lustfully, but we'd either turn away before those feelings took hold, or just not see a person that way. That takes away choice. We'd buy our Starbucks coffee full of tasty caffiene instead of giving it to the poor girl on the street, struggling to keep her kids alive, let alone herself. WE WOULD HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER.

Does that make sense? God "allows "bad" things to happen" because he gives us a choice. He wants us to love him willingly, not forced into it. He wants us to give him our hearts, not shape them so that they can never roll away from him. Make sense? hope so...

skynes
10-13-2005, 12:58 AM
That makes much more sense. Thank you.

I would agree with you now. God permits it, but doesn't will it. He HAS to permit it otherwise we don't have free will. Right?

NightCrawler
10-13-2005, 09:30 AM
This is, of course, based on the assumption that Freewill is true. But you guys don't want the thread being 'spoiled' ... instead, take it up in another thread and don't apply the Truth ;)

md4j
10-13-2005, 12:14 PM
I disagree. I do not see evil as an existing entity but as an absence of good. You do not 'choose' evil, you choose do something 'Not-good'. In the original world there was nothing but good (Im not including fallen angels). Adamn's choice was choose God or choose not-God. Evil does not need to exist for that choice to be made.


Cold does not exist, it is an absence of heat. Dark does not exist, it is an absence of light. So likewise Evil does not exist, it is a non-good.

You talk of evil like its an existing thing, which it's not. Evil is a word we use to describe something that is not good.Evil is spoken of greatly in the bible. While I do see where you're going I believe you to be incorrect. Evil is very real. It appears in the bible 636 times. Speaking mainly about what the Devil does.

md4j
10-13-2005, 12:15 PM
This is, of course, based on the assumption that Freewill is true. But you guys don't want the thread being 'spoiled' ... instead, take it up in another thread and don't apply the Truth ;)So is free will true?

unshakeable15
10-13-2005, 03:58 PM
Evil is spoken of greatly in the bible. While I do see where you're going I believe you to be incorrect. Evil is very real. It appears in the bible 636 times. Speaking mainly about what the Devil does.
so, for evil to be an entity, that would mean God, the Creator of all, would have created it, correct? or, did He not really create all things?

i offer up an alternative (or rather, Skynes did). evil is not an entity. it is an absense. it is darkness. simply because we speak of darkness or evil does not mean they exist. it just means that we like to speak of things. a noun is a person, place, thing or idea. can't evil and darkness be an idea, not a thing? that would mean you can still talk about it, but it doesn't exist in the same say a "thing" exists (like light or good).

alorian
10-13-2005, 05:36 PM
This is, of course, based on the assumption that Freewill is true. But you guys don't want the thread being 'spoiled' ... instead, take it up in another thread and don't apply the Truth ;)


May I assume you're talking about predestination? Sigh, yes, we have a thread on that...

But free will, in my opinion, is very much tied into this topic. I think a conclusion to what's been said is that God doesn't "allow" bad things to happen per se, but He doesn't allow bad things not to happen because this would take away free will. Correct me if I'm wrong, my brains a little gone from this place right now :P

So, if God allows free will, "bad" things will happen, because God will allow us to make those decisions.
But what if, as nightcrawler believes, free will doesn't exist? Why then would bad things happen? Wouldn't that be saying, then, that God perpertrates evil? Creates it to his own ends?

Hmmmmm, you've this's given me something to think about (though i think the idea of having no free will is ridiculous/silly), but unfortunetly I have to tests tomorrow: one math (my hardest, and somehow most fun???) and the other humanities with philosophy. I'll let you guys do the thinking for now ;)

NightCrawler
10-13-2005, 07:27 PM
God chooses to make His glory known. He prepares people for destruction. If you want, I can give you some verses.

And by the way, my believing in Predestination (Biblical ;D) is a generally recent occurance. I am glad, because some things make a TON more sense.

GOOD LUCK ON YOUR TESTS!!!!

skynes
10-14-2005, 12:29 AM
*slaps Nightcrawler*

There you go. Free Will in action ;)

md4j
10-14-2005, 05:41 AM
so, for evil to be an entity, that would mean God, the Creator of all, would have created it, correct? or, did He not really create all things?

i offer up an alternative (or rather, Skynes did). evil is not an entity. it is an absense. it is darkness. simply because we speak of darkness or evil does not mean they exist. it just means that we like to speak of things. a noun is a person, place, thing or idea. can't evil and darkness be an idea, not a thing? that would mean you can still talk about it, but it doesn't exist in the same say a "thing" exists (like light or good).Or allowed it to be "created". I don't know if I said it or not, but I agree somewhat with what you said. I just believe that Evil is very real and not JUST the absence of Good. Just an opinion. I get what you are saying though.

md4j
10-14-2005, 05:46 AM
God chooses to make His glory known. He prepares people for destruction. If you want, I can give you some verses.

And by the way, my believing in Predestination (Biblical ;D) is a generally recent occurance. I am glad, because some things make a TON more sense.

GOOD LUCK ON YOUR TESTS!!!!Well Mr. NightCrawler we will have to disagree a great deal on Predestination (unbiblical :P). If you want to make this into a predestination thread we can go at it :)

skynes
10-14-2005, 12:02 PM
Or allowed it to be "created". I don't know if I said it or not, but I agree somewhat with what you said. I just believe that Evil is very real and not JUST the absence of Good. Just an opinion. I get what you are saying though.

Nope. You can't allow something to be created. It would have needed a creator and the only creator is God.

Evil may be the absence of good, but don't let that make you think its insignificant. Cold is the absence of heat and Cold kills people. Evil is the opposite of good. As Good as someone can possibly be another person can be equally as evil. That makes them both as deadly to the opposite side as the other.

NightCrawler
10-14-2005, 05:34 PM
Well Mr. NightCrawler we will have to disagree a great deal on Predestination (unbiblical :P). If you want to make this into a predestination thread we can go at it :)
I was trying to avoid that ... even though it is quite relevent to the thread's topic. Like directly linked. Predestination threads, by ruling of the masses, I think, must be kept separate.

unshakeable15
10-15-2005, 02:28 PM
Predestination (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showthread.php?t=504)

go ahead and talk it there all you want. :) try to keep this thread on track (i.e. talk about Predestination and Free Will as they apply to evil in the world, but no debating as to wether they exist or not).

and md4j, predestination is Biblical. it's in the Bible. so is free will (tho not mentioned as "free will"). but, again, keep it in the correct thread. :)

Cornflake
10-15-2005, 07:13 PM
I think predestination is real but limited. God knows all things, he knows if you will make it to hell or heaven. He knows if you'll make the right or wrong choice. An often secular view of predestination shown is movies is that you cannot change your destiny. However, God can . Now, to tie this in with evil things. God planned on Adam and Evil .. *cough* I mean Eve .. ( just kidding btw, no offense to the females) to sin. Ok, let me reword this.. maybe he didn't intend for it to happen, but knew it would ( predestinated) so he made a plan for when it happened long before it even did. The only evil entity I think there is , is Satan. He is the father of lies, among many other names. Nothing he does is good. NOTHING.He is pure unfiltered evil. God however didn't necessarily create evil. He created Lucifer, who to start with was not evil. Apparently angels aren't God's slaves like people think they are. Apparently they have a touch of free will too. However, unlike us, they have no salvation, unless I and most others totally missed something in the Bible. I can see that I am rambling here. Forgive me. *collects his thoughts*

Ok, just my quick views on things already said.

I do agree evil is an absence of good. So if you plan on murdering someone, which is defintely not good, then that would an evil plan, because it lacks good. Anyway, Im not the best at putting my beliefs into words.

Also, I too have read and heard the scripture where Jesus/God will turn his back on us in judgement day. "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you." and something about He will spew them out of his mouth. Well, if that doesn't sound like God turning His back on you, I don't know what does. But thats because it's too late to be forgiven ( you've died already). I don't think its because He WANTS to turn his back on us. I think if you are still alive and reading this, however then God hasn't turned his back on you. He will forgive you for whatever you've done, unless your heart has been hardened. The scripture ( cannot remember exact verse or wording) " He will never leave us or forsake us) comes to mind then. Though I do admit it confuses me a little. Ok, Im sorry, I have totally strayed off topic . Let me just end this here.

NightCrawler
10-15-2005, 08:39 PM
Thanks, unshakeable15

skynes
10-16-2005, 07:32 AM
There is no salvation for angels. It's in Hebrews somewhere.

NightCrawler
10-16-2005, 10:50 AM
A new thought ;)

1st Samuel 16? ... An evil spirit from the Lord?

unshakeable15
10-16-2005, 01:33 PM
i believe that would go along with the hardening of Pharoah's heart in Exodus.

see 7:3 (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=7&verse=3&version=31&context=verse), 9:13 (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=7&verse=13&version=31&context=verse), & 14:4 (http://biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=14&verse=4&version=31&context=verse), as well as others in the chapters in between.

skynes
10-17-2005, 12:29 AM
God is protecting people and places daily from evil spirits.

Do you think maybe that God 'hardening Pharoah's heart' and sending 'evil spirits' is God removing his protectionf rom these people? In the same way he granted Satan permission to torment Job?

md4j
10-17-2005, 05:25 AM
I was trying to avoid that ... even though it is quite relevent to the thread's topic. Like directly linked. Predestination threads, by ruling of the masses, I think, must be kept separate.I was just being crazy. If you want though we can debate it, not here though.

md4j
10-17-2005, 05:27 AM
Predestination (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showthread.php?t=504)

go ahead and talk it there all you want. :) try to keep this thread on track (i.e. talk about Predestination and Free Will as they apply to evil in the world, but no debating as to wether they exist or not).

and md4j, predestination is Biblical. it's in the Bible. so is free will (tho not mentioned as "free will"). but, again, keep it in the correct thread. :)The question is which "predestination" are you talking about. Predestination unto salvation is such an unbiblical term. And I only respond because you mentioned something of it. But I'm here to tell you that Calvinism's definition of predestination isn't biblical at all.

JustJill
10-17-2005, 10:48 AM
We are like ants in a lawn

Our view of the big picture is miniscule.

Things happen for a reason-

Our character is shapped individually, and as nations...when bad things happen. ::]

NightCrawler
10-17-2005, 12:45 PM
Umm, that analogy doesn't fit.. because Ants can't read scripts that were given by the guy that owns the lawn.

alorian
10-17-2005, 05:23 PM
No analogy is perfect, though.

But that wasn't the point. We're living on this "plane" with a certain potential for thought. We can't know everything that God's going, his big grand plan. We can't even know all the details. Nor can ants. Ants see what's in front of their eyes. They can't look above.

Ahhhh, I'm done, my thought just went - away.

md4j
10-18-2005, 05:08 AM
Umm, that analogy doesn't fit.. because Ants can't read scripts that were given by the guy that owns the lawn.This made me laugh. Not that it's wrong, just funny to say.

NightCrawler
10-18-2005, 07:01 AM
Glad you liked it.