SkFan1983
11-02-2005, 05:09 PM
I'm talking about a Promontion Final Destination type of thing and you cane also notice in both movies both of the Main Characters sensed something bad. like on the first one The Main character sensed something bad about the plane that the plane was gona blow up then, the second movie she sensed something bad that a Accident was gona happen on the road. And the third one is comeing out Febuary 2006 that takes place on a Roller Coaster so the main character is gona sense that theres gona be a accident on the RollerCoaster. I know that death would not really wana kill all the people that Cheated death in real life.

NightCrawler
11-02-2005, 06:33 PM
I don't think so.

bob
11-02-2005, 06:38 PM
i'm going to say no, but if I die, i'll inform you if I knew :P

aliengurl7
11-02-2005, 06:45 PM
Yes, I believe people can have premonitions of someone dieing I had one before. My bro in law also had one about his father right before he passed away.He sensed that his father was going to die after hugging him and his dad wasn't sick or anything and his dad ended up dieing a few weeks later.I think God lets some people know ahead of time.

NightCrawler
11-02-2005, 07:40 PM
If anything, it would be divine. From nothing else.

Isildur9473
11-02-2005, 07:54 PM
I'm talking about a Promontion Final Destination type of thing and you cane also notice in both movies both of the Main Characters sensed something bad. like on the first one The Main character sensed something bad about the plane that the plane was gona blow up then, the second movie she sensed something bad that a Accident was gona happen on the road. And the third one is comeing out Febuary 2006 that takes place on a Roller Coaster so the main character is gona sense that theres gona be a accident on the RollerCoaster. I know that death would not really wana kill all the people that Cheated death in real life.

Nope. Movies are different from real life.

PinkGoo
11-03-2005, 03:46 AM
dude, why do you base all your threads on movies? ...and act like they are real life??

NightCrawler
11-03-2005, 06:47 AM
Because movies are creative, and may be based on theories people have in real life.

For example, Dogma.... :: rofl ::

fire-inside
11-03-2005, 11:02 AM
dude, why do you base all your threads on movies? ...and act like they are real life??
Dude, why criticize?

TheFireBreathes
11-03-2005, 12:00 PM
I'm talking about a Promontion Final Destination type of thing and you cane also notice in both movies both of the Main Characters sensed something bad. like on the first one The Main character sensed something bad about the plane that the plane was gona blow up then, the second movie she sensed something bad that a Accident was gona happen on the road. And the third one is comeing out Febuary 2006 that takes place on a Roller Coaster so the main character is gona sense that theres gona be a accident on the RollerCoaster. I know that death would not really wana kill all the people that Cheated death in real life.

I think in a way you can. Like Ive heard stories of people about to get in a car crash and at the last second of their crash they were able to move in such a way that they werent killed. And some times when Im out doing extreme syuff like mountain boarding and skiing and when Im about to go off a jump or something a get a terrible feeling that im not goin to make it so I go around it. I later find that there was a rock at the bottom or something. I think God had warned me that if there was danger in front of me and I would of only been safe if I went with Him.

Isildur9473
11-04-2005, 03:30 PM
Dude, why criticize?

Because there's a clear cut line between movies and real life...?

Spiffles
11-04-2005, 06:00 PM
I think, you could be able to sense your own death, or feel it coming (body dieing, you probably feel something going on with it.. (this os of course not including a sudden unexpected death)

I dont think under normal cirumstances we would be able to sense other peoples deaths before hand, unless in a very very special case that God gave that sense if he wanted something to happen or something that God had planed..

And also.. Satan is the master of deception so he is quite cabable of throwing thouhgts or whatever at someone to get them to think something is going to happen..

drumchick101
11-04-2005, 08:39 PM
If God tells you that you, or whoever is going to die, then sure. But unless God tells you, then no.

><sarah><

NightCrawler
11-04-2005, 10:43 PM
... Prophecy?

deadb4dawn
11-07-2005, 07:09 PM
i think u can. cause u know how some twins came since when the other is in troulbe, well it could be like but instead of a twin its a whole bunch of people. but that would be really kool to be abile to see death. but u would have to be really observent about things. thatd be so freakn cool tho!!!i dont know

NightCrawler
11-07-2005, 10:30 PM
That doesn't sound right, deadb4dawn. (the premises that lead to the conclusion, not the conclusion itself)

I'd like to divide the options up.
God -- not bound by time.
Man -- bound by time, almost by definition.

Man cannot know/predict the future from within themselves. They can make inductive inferences (make reasonable guesses), at best. So, there is nothing biological that can allow them to know the future. They can be pretty keen on making guesses, and that takes some training (being observant, keeping track of things, watching for cause-and-effect relations, etc.)

God can, through many ways, give men foreknowledge. He is outside of time, He has no limits to His power. He has given prophets words to write. Et cetra.

Aside from that, there is nothing else. One twin coming when the other is in trouble is either happenstance or God. What would death look like? Haha. Really observant does nothing except it gives you more premises with which you may try to reach a conclusion.

TheFireBreathes
11-08-2005, 05:29 PM
I had a dream one time where I was at a table talking with a bunch of my friends and a few days later the exact same thing happend! I could almost tell what they were abput to say. And no I didnt know my friends and I were going out to lunch before the dream either.

NightCrawler
11-08-2005, 10:34 PM
Once I had a dream I got in a car accident, and I saw a deacon and talked with him.

A few weeks later, I got in a car accident... and talked with that same deacon the next day.

PinkGoo
11-08-2005, 10:35 PM
What the name for that? *thinks*

NightCrawler
11-08-2005, 10:43 PM
I am guessing coincedence (I don't believe this), purpose, or prophecy.

(purpose would be God has this happen so we show our stupidity in discussing about how it is not from him...; prophecy would be divine intervention manifested in the imagery of future events displayed in our minds -- trances/visions similarly)

deadb4dawn
11-09-2005, 02:22 PM
That doesn't sound right, deadb4dawn. (the premises that lead to the conclusion, not the conclusion itself)

I'd like to divide the options up.
God -- not bound by time.
Man -- bound by time, almost by definition.
thats ur beliefs. but what if god was sending you a sign for it.< i know that sounds really cheesy(oo i hate cheese!!!) but it could be like that. i see were ur coming form but i was just guessn.

NightCrawler
11-09-2005, 04:46 PM
thats ur beliefs. but what if god was sending you a sign for it.< i know that sounds really cheesy(oo i hate cheese!!!) but it could be like that. i see were ur coming form but i was just guessn.
What?... That is divine, it would not be of us. That is what I am saying. Either it is God or it is God. We CAN see the future, but it is not out of something of us, it is from above.

What other option would there be? Demons can't predict the future either, can they?

Spiffles
11-09-2005, 04:50 PM
the future doesnt exsist... we make the future has it is happening.. God has a plan for us.. but thats not a future as we can choose to do what God has planed or something else, and we choose to mkae what happens. If there was a future we would be locked into a certain path to fullfill that future.. but we are not locked into anything..

NightCrawler
11-09-2005, 04:54 PM
I disagree, Spiffles. Prophecy, God's foreknowledge, etc. are all estabilished in the Bible, if there were no future (yet) and we had no locked path, how could those be possible?

Spiffles
11-09-2005, 05:02 PM
prophecy is Gods plan... a prophesy still needs to be fullfilled once it is said.. otherwise it's said what someone said and nothng else.. example.. i'll use Jesus.. there was a prophesy (sorry cant remember the dude, i think isiah, but most likely wrong, or was it job??) about the mesiah... we all agree that was Jesus yeh? Jesus still had a choice. He didnt have to die, he could have jumped off that cross if he wanted or called a host of angels to rescue him or a whole number of things.. He instead, knowing what the prophesy was.. and Gods plan (the prophesy) choose to do what he did...


Gods original plan was for humans to be all perfect and stuff which is how it was, but we as humans choose to stray away from that thus changing the future and what God had planed and wanted.. and therefore everything else changed because of that...
IF we as humans (Adam and Eve) did not sin, then there would not have been need for the prophesy of the mesiah, because we as humans would still be like we were before we "fell"...

So i styill belive there is no such thing as a future untill it is created...

whereami
11-09-2005, 05:54 PM
(wow, this was a really fun thread to read)
(i would add my own opinion, but i dont think i have one ;))

NightCrawler
11-09-2005, 08:15 PM
Gods original plan was for humans to be all perfect and stuff which is how it was, but we as humans choose to stray away from that thus changing the future and what God had planed and wanted.. and therefore everything else changed because of that...
IF we as humans (Adam and Eve) did not sin, then there would not have been need for the prophesy of the mesiah, because we as humans would still be like we were before we "fell"...

So i styill belive there is no such thing as a future untill it is created...
Okay, so here are two things I can give to clear something up.

1) God's plans always succeed. Not once has it failed, man's plans fail. But not God's. This is mentioned a few times in the Bible, and it can also be seen.

27 For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him?
His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?11 But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever,
the purposes of his heart through all generations.
2) I see time as an odd concept. This is how I believe it is: Tomorrow is just as existing as today and yesterday. All the same. It is just another dimension. So, what I did yesterday is as set-in-stone as what I 'will do' tomorrow. And vice versa. I came up with it at about 4am when I had a friend over, it even made sense the next day (haha). Oh, and God is outside of time, but humans are bound to it. Naturally, you are inclined against this idea. Can ya tell me what might be wrong with it?

deadb4dawn
11-10-2005, 04:45 PM
wow, im confused. okay, let me get this straight... so u don't beleive that people can tell when death is coming, but u do beleive that people can see the future. but wouldnt the people that see into the future see when death is coming? and somehow pevent death it from coming. ???

Spiffles
11-10-2005, 05:20 PM
Gods original plan wasnt for man to screw up... yet that went wrong.. granted.. we screwed it up, not God, but it wasnt our plan.. So Gods plans have been screwed up... I'm sure if you asked him if he prefered his original plan how he created us to be that way now or us as humans to ahve screwed that up he would say he wnated it how he originally planed it....

I do see what those verses say, but i also see what happened with Gods plans.. If God carried out those plans, then yes.. they would not fail.. but God doesnt do it himself.. He uses us, and as humans we tend to screw it up more often then not...


Oh, and God is outside of time, but humans are bound to it. Naturally, you are inclined against this idea. Can ya tell me what might be wrong with it?

Humans made up time.. all time is, is a messurement of the earth going round the sun, and when the sun sets and rises and how fast the earth spins...
Gods not bound by time cause there is no such thing, except what humans made up so that we can comprehend things..


thats what I beleive anyway...

deadb4dawn
11-10-2005, 05:52 PM
spiffels, have u ever rode a kangaroo? cause that would be soooo cool. -lol-
" The greatest thrill God ever gave human kind was Kangaroo Riding " thats so funny.

NightCrawler
11-10-2005, 05:55 PM
wow, im confused. okay, let me get this straight... so u don't beleive that people can tell when death is coming, but u do beleive that people can see the future. but wouldnt the people that see into the future see when death is coming? and somehow pevent death it from coming. ???Believe it is possible to see death and other future events. But it would not be from something within ourselves. If there is any future event seen beforehand, it is from God, and God alone.

Also, regarding prophecy... We can't just prophecy... God gives us the revelation. If I were a prophet, then I couldn't just foretell how "tomorrow you will do this or that" and then come to find that somehow it will come to pass. God would have to give me the prophecy that this or that will come to pass, and it will occur.

deadb4dawn
11-10-2005, 06:07 PM
ok that clears thing up some. thanks

TheFireBreathes
11-10-2005, 06:23 PM
Gods original plan wasnt for man to screw up... yet that went wrong.. granted.. we screwed it up, not God, but it wasnt our plan.. So Gods plans have been screwed up... I'm sure if you asked him if he prefered his original plan how he created us to be that way now or us as humans to ahve screwed that up he would say he wnated it how he originally planed it....
thats what I beleive anyway...

Let me ask you something, what would be the point of Gods existence if we never screwed up? We wouldnt be able to praise Him for forgiveness of our sins. We wouldnt need Him, we wouldnt need His relentless love if we were perfect. Since God is outside of time, which means He is everywhere, (As I think Skynes quoted one time how He could still be electing people salvation back when Jesus was alive.) There would be no need in Him to have an "original plan" then change it.

Look at Hebrews 1:10-12
10He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

The verse tells you how God never changes, which to me would make me easier to trust someone knowing that He never changes.

Spiffles
11-10-2005, 06:36 PM
Let me ask you something, what would be the point of Gods existence if we never screwed up? We wouldnt be able to praise Him for forgiveness of our sins. We wouldnt need Him, we wouldnt need His relentless love if we were perfect. Since God is outside of time, which means He is everywhere, (As I think Skynes quoted one time how He could still be electing people salvation back when Jesus was alive.) There would be no need in Him to have an "original plan" then change it.

Look at Hebrews 1:10-12
10He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

The verse tells you how God never changes, which to me would make me easier to trust someone knowing that He never changes.



God created us to worship him.. He created us perfect with a freedom of choice.. Our purpose is to worship him.. we were created perfect.. and we still worshiped him.. and we need him, even when we are perfect.. Jesus was perfect yes? ( i hope you agree with me on that) and yet he still needed God. Being perfect doesnt rule out needing God since our purpose is to worship God...

God had a plan.. but he didnt change it... i havent said he did at any point.. WE as humans changed that plan.. because as i have mentioned before.. God uses us to do his work, but we have a freedom of choice that God gave us, and we screw things up.. and then God fixes what we screw up (thats the great thing about God, he still loves us and fixes stuff when we screw it up)..
and yes God is outside of time because it doesnt exsist.. I have never said God is inside of time.. i'm not going to go into the time thing cause ive already spoken about that..



For the last thing.. God never changes.. yes i agree,a nd havent said otherwise.. but God is different to Gods plan..
God never planed for humans to sin and fall.. yet that ahppened.. I seriously doubt God planed for human kind to get so sinful that he felt he needed to flood the whole earth and wipe us clean off the earth with the exception of one family he choose.. I doubt Gods original plan was to send his son down to earth, and die a horrible painful death, but all those things happened, because somewhere along the line we as humans have screwed up what God has planed.. God hsnt changed.. what he wants hsnt changed.. but how things have ahppened (Gods plan) has changed....

NightCrawler
11-10-2005, 09:05 PM
Spiffles, the idea that God's plans fail directly contradict the Bible.

Spiffles
11-10-2005, 09:13 PM
then the bible contradicts it self *shrugs*

God NEVER planed for man to screw up, but we did and everything else had to change and did including what WAS planned..

I'll say it was once....

God has plans.. but he uses US, humans to fullfill his plans.. and guess what.. we screw up.. therefore... what was planed, doesnt work out... i listed my examples in my other posts but i cant be bothered repeating them like i'm repeating this...

TheFireBreathes
11-11-2005, 10:25 AM
then the bible contradicts it self *shrugs*

God NEVER planed for man to screw up, but we did and everything else had to change and did including what WAS planned..

I'll say it was once....

God has plans.. but he uses US, humans to fullfill his plans.. and guess what.. we screw up.. therefore... what was planed, doesnt work out... i listed my examples in my other posts but i cant be bothered repeating them like i'm repeating this...

But God is God, therefore He knows Everything. He is already in the future, He is in the past, and He is in the present. So if he already new how the world is going to end, why he need to "learn" from us humans that we screw up. He new we would screw up, He new He would send out Jesus. And he already knows what grade I got on that stinking math test. If he created us and created all of our attributes, why would He need to learn from us? That is just what I believe

Spiffles
11-11-2005, 11:36 AM
I refuse to beleive God created us with a plan for us to screw up.. that would mean he NEVER had any faith or trust in his creation and therefore nothing else that we believe in matters and we are wasting our time...




and for the record i never said anything about God needing to "learn" from us, because i dont beleive he needs to learn from us.. God doesnt need anything, he's self suficient.. He created us to worship him.. thats what our purpose as a creation is..

TheFireBreathes
11-11-2005, 05:35 PM
I refuse to beleive God created us with a plan for us to screw up.. that would mean he NEVER had any faith or trust in his creation and therefore nothing else that we believe in matters and we are wasting our time...




and for the record i never said anything about God needing to "learn" from us, because i dont beleive he needs to learn from us.. God doesnt need anything, he's self suficient.. He created us to worship him.. thats what our purpose as a creation is..

Well you said He HAD a plan, But changed it because he learned that we were not perfect. God NEVER planed for man to screw up, but we did and everything else had to change and did including what WAS planned..

Spiffles
11-11-2005, 05:41 PM
that says we changed it not God.. by us screwing up we changed it..

TheFireBreathes
11-11-2005, 05:58 PM
So if God knew everything about the future when Adam ate the apple, that means He didnt change it, it just happend that way.

Spiffles
11-11-2005, 06:50 PM
once again.. i never said God changed the future or his plans.. I have always stated.. it's what we as humans do that changes it.. God wont change it cause he knows best, and the only person to have actually done FULLY what God had planed was Jesus... everything else humans have managed to screw up in some way or another....
Adam and Eve... God never ever planed for his creation to screw up and fall from Grace...


2nd: as ive stated before, I dont beleive there is such thing as the future untill it happens.. nothing is set in stone.. God may have a plan for what he wants to happen.. but since God uses us, and we are not perfect, we dont always do what God wants as i have also stated before, and the plan gets screwed up... not by God, but by us (humans).. therfore new plans have to be made, or whatever God decides to do to fix the things that we screwd up...

God makes a plan
Humans have a choice to follow it or do it our way..
When we follow Gods plan it works out nothing changes..
when we dont and do it our way... we screw it up.. and then the plan changes... not by God... God never chabnged it.. we did.. by screwing up.. Us, Humans, our responsibility... what we caused...

NightCrawler
11-11-2005, 07:04 PM
Are humans more powerful than the Almighty? Either God planned it this way, or He didn't do any planning. For God's plans cannot be thwarted by mere human beings.

I believe it was all planned, including our fall. Including our salvation. It is all planned. His timing is perfect, his plans are perfect, and we can do nothing to change them. You are stepping onto Predestination's toes. It is inevitable.

It took me quite a few months (something like 5 of direct thought on the ssubject) to accept the idea, myself.

Spiffles
11-11-2005, 08:42 PM
Are humans more powerful than the Almighty? Either God planned it this way, or He didn't do any planning. For God's plans cannot be thwarted by mere human beings.


God uses man to do his work and he does not dictate what we actually choose... and if we dont choose what God had planed.. guess what... the plan is screwed up.. because of what we did...

believe it was all planned, including our fall. Including our salvation. It is all planned. His timing is perfect, his plans are perfect, and we can do nothing to change them. You are stepping onto Predestination's toes. It is inevitable.

I dont beleive in destiny or whatever.. I beleive in.. what we choose we get the consequences of....

IF as you say.. everything was alreayd planed.. then God sealed the fate of EVERYONE that is going to hell... I completely refuse to beleive God would do that to his creation..
That would mean that God doesnt and never did have any faith or trust in his creation, and doesnt care for our choices..

TheFireBreathes
11-11-2005, 08:45 PM
once again.. i never said God changed the future or his plans.. I have always stated.. it's what we as humans do that changes it.. God wont change it cause he knows best, and the only person to have actually done FULLY what God had planed was Jesus... everything else humans have managed to screw up in some way or another....
Adam and Eve... God never ever planed for his creation to screw up and fall from Grace...


2nd: as ive stated before, I dont beleive there is such thing as the future untill it happens.. nothing is set in stone.. God may have a plan for what he wants to happen.. but since God uses us, and we are not perfect, we dont always do what God wants as i have also stated before, and the plan gets screwed up... not by God, but by us (humans).. therfore new plans have to be made, or whatever God decides to do to fix the things that we screwd up...

God makes a plan
Humans have a choice to follow it or do it our way..
When we follow Gods plan it works out nothing changes..
when we dont and do it our way... we screw it up.. and then the plan changes... not by God... God never chabnged it.. we did.. by screwing up.. Us, Humans, our responsibility... what we caused...

So you believe that God has a plan for each of us right? And And according to you, once we screw up, we are out of his plan. How can we get back with hih? Did you ever read that verse from the Bible it goes "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Well from what you have said, it seems like He has done both of those. How do you know what God has called you to do if you leave "His plan" but you still love Him?

Spiffles
11-11-2005, 08:52 PM
if everything was already planed and cant be changed what so ever, you and me and everyone might as well do what ever we want.. it wont matter.. we cant change it because it's already planed...

i'll go and turn into a druggy... and a prostitute... and enjoy my body...might rob a bank as well, it doesnt mater what I do.. it was already planed....


see... that is why i beleive that what is planed can change...
it's about what we choose...
God created us to worship him.. that is the purpose of humans.. God gave us a free will to choose to worship him or not because it brings him more joy to know we choose to worship him.. If we had no free will and whatever we choose was already planed.. it wouldnt bring God any joy when we worship him because it's not our choice.. it's Gods plan... and what we choose... that is why I dont beleive that what God planed is what will happen...

IF God carried out what he planed.. then yes.. that would happen as he planed, because God is perfect.. but he uses humans... and us humans being our all knowing idiot selves try to do it our own way more often then not.. and when we dont do it Gods we we screw up.. and dont do it how God planed...
THEN... God has to pick up the pieces, and fix our screwy mistakes... by this time.. what God originally planed.. has been thrown out the window, and sometihng else gets put in it's place..
The outcome at the end may be the same.. but the plan... (which is the path to get to the outcome) has changed...

Spiffles
11-11-2005, 08:56 PM
So you believe that God has a plan for each of us right? And And according to you, once we screw up, we are out of his plan. How can we get back with hih? Did you ever read that verse from the Bible it goes "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Well from what you have said, it seems like He has done both of those. How do you know what God has called you to do if you leave "His plan" but you still love Him?


For this.....
yes, I beleive God has a plan for each of us...
and no.. once we screw up, his ORIGINAL plan we are out of.. God will make a new different one... to get back with God.. since Jesus came and died for us granting us redemption.. we just have to ask God.
Yes, I read the erse that said I will never leave or forsake you.. I also read the verse that said, " If you deny me, I will deny you" But if we repent, God accepts us back...

How do we know what God has called us to do if we leave his plan??
Well... we ask him... usually the reason we dont do what was planed is because we never asked him and did what we thought was best

TheFireBreathes
11-11-2005, 09:03 PM
if everything was already planed and cant be changed what so ever, you and me and everyone might as well do what ever we want.. it wont matter.. we cant change it because it's already planed...

i'll go and turn into a druggy... and a prostitute... and enjoy my body...might rob a bank as well, it doesnt mater what I do.. it was already planed...

Exactly, it doesnt matter how bad you are, God is so awesome that He will forgive you no matter what. Maybe His plan for someone was for them to a little bit Christian in the beginning, then become a huge drug addict. Once he gets older his friend takes him to a Bible study and completly turns his life to back God. That is what God had planned for him. He will of then learned from his mistakes and would go out and teach the word of God. This story is simmiler to a lot of testamonies I have heard in my life. And besides, you cant say "ohh mine as well become a druggy" well you dont know what the future has in store for you so you cant really say that.

Spiffles
11-11-2005, 09:07 PM
Exactly, it doesnt matter how bad you are, God is so awesome that He will forgive you no matter what. Maybe His plan for someone was for them to a little bit Christian in the beginning, then become a huge drug addict. Once he gets older his friend takes him to a Bible study and completly turns his life to back God. That is what God had planned for him. He will of then learned from his mistakes and would go out and teach the word of God. This story is simmiler to a lot of testamonies I have heard in my life. And besides, you cant say "ohh mine as well become a druggy" well you dont know what the future has in store for you so you cant really say that.


for that example.. that druggy.. still would have had a choice to turn back to the Lord.. he could have choosen to stay doing what he was doing... it was what he choose...
Not every person does choose to turn back to the Lord....
I'll ask you a question..... Do you honestly beleive that every person that is in hell from not turning to the Lord is because that is what God planed????

I certainly dont... and that is why I beleive what I am saying in all my posts in this thread.

Spiffles
11-11-2005, 09:08 PM
And besides, you cant say "ohh mine as well become a druggy" well you dont know what the future has in store for you so you cant really say that.

that is taken out of context.. go abck and read all of what I said

NightCrawler
11-12-2005, 03:10 PM
if everything was already planed and cant be changed what so ever, you and me and everyone might as well do what ever we want.. it wont matter.. we cant change it because it's already planed...

i'll go and turn into a druggy... and a prostitute... and enjoy my body...might rob a bank as well, it doesnt mater what I do.. it was already planed....

Yes, it is like that... but not in the way you are taking it.

Under that case, it would then have been proven that you were destined not to have followed God.... Not, I am going to heaven, so I can be sinful and unrepentantly. Because that would proved that you would not be going to heaven.

Just because it is planned doesn't mean we know what His plan is.

I speak against such thoughts like "I am 'saved,' therefore I cannot go to Hell. Therefore, since I cannot go to Hell, I will live my life with as much fun as I can through a sinful lifestyle."

NightCrawler
11-12-2005, 03:12 PM
Also, how can one be outside of His plan? Does He just lose track of what that person is dowing, and tries to improvise to the circumstances to make sure those that are 'in His plan' work out right?

Spiffles
11-12-2005, 03:42 PM
he has a plan for everyone... as I have stated before a few times... IT IS OUR CHOICE.. God doesnt do it for us.. He lets us do it.. if we dont choose to do what he wants, either by ignoreing him, or tihnking our way is better or whatever reason.... then what God has planed for us is irrelevant because we choose to do something else...

That is why I dont beleive that what God has planed is set in stone... because I refuse to beleive God has planed for people to be in Hell... If that was the case.. then everyone that is in Hell.. thats what God planed...

God does NOT want anyone in Hell, but those people choose not to follow God and do his will and what he had planed..

Spiffles
11-12-2005, 03:47 PM
Yes, it is like that... but not in the way you are taking it.

Under that case, it would then have been proven that you were destined not to have followed God.... Not, I am going to heaven, so I can be sinful and unrepentantly. Because that would proved that you would not be going to heaven.

Just because it is planned doesn't mean we know what His plan is.

I speak against such thoughts like "I am 'saved,' therefore I cannot go to Hell. Therefore, since I cannot go to Hell, I will live my life with as much fun as I can through a sinful lifestyle."



And i will post the REST of what I said right beleow this paraphraph.. please dont take one little part of my comment... read all of it... thank you end of line!


if everything was already planed and cant be changed what so ever, you and me and everyone might as well do what ever we want.. it wont matter.. we cant change it because it's already planed...

i'll go and turn into a druggy... and a prostitute... and enjoy my body...might rob a bank as well, it doesnt mater what I do.. it was already planed....


see... that is why i beleive that what is planed can change...
it's about what we choose...
God created us to worship him.. that is the purpose of humans.. God gave us a free will to choose to worship him or not because it brings him more joy to know we choose to worship him.. If we had no free will and whatever we choose was already planed.. it wouldnt bring God any joy when we worship him because it's not our choice.. it's Gods plan... and what we choose... that is why I dont beleive that what God planed is what will happen...

IF God carried out what he planed.. then yes.. that would happen as he planed, because God is perfect.. but he uses humans... and us humans being our all knowing idiot selves try to do it our own way more often then not.. and when we dont do it Gods we we screw up.. and dont do it how God planed...
THEN... God has to pick up the pieces, and fix our screwy mistakes... by this time.. what God originally planed.. has been thrown out the window, and sometihng else gets put in it's place..
The outcome at the end may be the same.. but the plan... (which is the path to get to the outcome) has changed...

NightCrawler
11-12-2005, 04:07 PM
Just because you repeat yourself word for word means it is right, and I don't believe it is all based on our choices. So try a different approach of convincing me.

Spiffles
11-12-2005, 04:15 PM
no.. i repeat myself because time and time again.. my statements are being taken, small parts are being used and the rest of what i ahve been saying isnt being used.. which is really not good for argueing a complete statement ebcause the points are missed.


I refuse to beleive that God planed for people to end up in Hell, completely refuse to beleive that...They choose their choices, and they choose wrong.. thats why they are in hell...
If it is how you said and God's plans always come true and never fail, then God planed for people to go to Hell...

Are you relling me that God planed for theose people, his creation, to go to Hell??



To me that sounds to me similar to that mormonism crap that God picks and chooses who gets saved and who doesnt, and if that is the case.. then it really doesnt matter what we do, it's already choosen for us...
and i refuse to beleive that as well..

Spiffles
11-12-2005, 04:31 PM
Well, i have had enough of little parts of my statements being taken while other parts are being ignored.. so no more from me in this thread...

NightCrawler
11-12-2005, 04:34 PM
Well, i have had enough of little parts of my statements being taken while other parts are being ignored.. so no more from me in this thread...
We were heavily off topic anyway.

deadb4dawn
11-12-2005, 07:19 PM
-lol- you guys are great. -lol-

unshakeable15
11-12-2005, 08:32 PM
yes, you were. :) but i must continue with this because both sides have said some things that are off Biblically.

Brett, your example of the Christian turned druggy turned Christian again sits really wrong in me. God would not take someone and put them in sin. James says God does not tempt man. if He did that, then He would be sinning as much as the man trying to get kids to smoke weed. your example not only has God tempting, but further than that, placing a man in sin. that's not the God i know at all.

Spiffles, you are forgetting that God is like the ultimate best friend. back in the day, i had a friend who loved to play basketball (probably why i like it so much now). he also had a move where he'd fake left and cut right to the hoop. being his best friend, i knew this move and could expect it and counteract it (tho, he was a better player and could overcome that, but that's beside the point).

God, being outside of time and knowing us more intimately than we do ourselves, knows our options and knows which one we will make before we make it. not because He's forcing that decision upon us, but simply because, outside of time and knowing us so well, He sees us making it before we do.

that means His plans are never foiled by us because He's already seen us fail. anticipating failure, you can plan for it.

(this doesn't translate directly into our concept of failure and foiled plans because He's God and therefore above being pigeonholed into human characteristics and terms.)

for example, God didn't plan for Adam and Eve to sin and eat the fruit. but He knew it would happen eventually. someone, somwhere, down the line, would have eaten the fruit. if not Eve and Adam, then one of their children. it would have happened. so, before He even pulled that rib from Adam's side, before He breathed life into the dust, before everything, He had the plan for the Redeemer Messiah set out.

deadb4dawn
11-12-2005, 08:49 PM
man i like just watched Finale Destination like 3 hours ago! -lol-

rodeocowboy kid
11-13-2005, 01:14 PM
I think that sometimes you or someonelse could sense if you or someone you love is going to die but I don't think you could do it all the time and I think you would only feel or sense it if god wanted you to know.

Maddog
11-26-2005, 12:56 PM
I dunno. Ask a dead person