skynes
11-17-2005, 04:50 AM
Took a page out of my own book... Or more specifically "What does it matter" thread.

Here it is: Temporal theory.

Or in other words - That odd confusing thread with Zero scientific basis where a bunch of people with basic Science skills andn o idea what they're talking about try and figure out how on earth Time works. God is included too... lol.

Anyway, I like how Terry Pratchett put it (paraphrased as I cant remember precise words)

Time is a river. We are flowing downstream.
To go further downstream ahead of everyone requires a LOT of energy.
Going upstream requires EVEN MORE energy as you're fighting against the current.

However hsould you change the slightest detail in the past... You just killed everyone you knew. Your friends, your family, all dead. they have now ceased to exist as you sent time down a totally different path

- Adapted from Thief of Time.

Reeper
11-17-2005, 05:42 AM
Ha, good stuff Skynes. My brother and I try to wax intellectual about this subject all the time.

Don't know about the killing everyone stuff. I know where it comes from and such but to be totally honest I have a problem with the entire changing the past thing. Really if you think about it if someones goes to the past in the future, or even right now, and changes the past somehow it wouldn't matter because in the present time and in the future that change would have already been made and therefore wouldn't change a thing.

So basically if you are planning on going to the past in the future in order to change the present don't bother cause your present is already the result of the changed past which you changed in the future.

That's the reason why I have a problem with the Back to the Future movies. Don't get me wrong I love those movies, but it is not possible for Marty to change the past because his actions would have already been accounted for in the present even if he did them in the future. Man this is getting confusing for anyone reading this, I imagine. Well, I understand what I am saying so I'm going to keep going.

And that's why I love the Bill and Ted movies cause they understand that and compensate for it, hence Ted actually being the one who stole his Dad's keys. See he went to the past in the future therefore his present self didn't know that he stole his dad's keys in the past because he did it in the future, but the action he did in the past in the future was already accounted for in the present and it did not change a thing.

Whew, anyway, that's enough from me. Good stuff though Skynes.

Peace

skynes
11-17-2005, 06:17 AM
HAHAHAHA!! I love it Paul, absolutely love it.

I do see what you mean, however it depends upon which way time works.
If it is like a river, then if you went back in time and blocked off an access, say by killing Hitler ala Red Alert. That is a major change which would have significant effects on the timeline. The previous timeline would cease to exist, thus killing everyone there.

When you returned to the future, things may be changed in ways you don't expect. Again like Red Alert.

Story:
Einstein built a time machine, went and killed Hitler. However Hitler served an important purpose in time. Blocking the Soviets from conquering Europe. Without this major obstacle, the Soviet Union managed to conquer 1/3 of the world and ate it's way into Europe. the Allied forces fought them back by the skin of their teeth and eventually Stalin was killed. -- Red Alert 1 general outline.

There is another theory I heard, in which time is like a river and everyone is in a boat.

BUT! Since everyone is in the boat, if you back or forward in time, there is nothing there... Reality is either way ahead or way behind you. So you're floating in non-existance
--------------------

Strange you mentioned Bill n Ted cause it was on TV only a few nights ago :|

skilletosis
11-17-2005, 08:06 AM
You guys are blowing my mind. Both theories most EXCELLENTLY thought out. Skynes I like your Hitler scenario but I'll have to point out that with Hitler dead there would be 6 million Jews that wouldn't have perished thus if 1/6 of them joined the military and fought against the Soviets then the Soviets may not have conquered Europe. Ok my scenario may just be BOGUS. But I think it's a facinating topic.

NightCrawler
11-17-2005, 08:12 AM
Took a page out of my own book... Or more specifically "What does it matter" thread.I was honestly waiting.


Time is a river. We are flowing downstream.
To go further downstream ahead of everyone requires a LOT of energy.
Going upstream requires EVEN MORE energy as you're fighting against the current.

However hsould you change the slightest detail in the past... You just killed everyone you knew. Your friends, your family, all dead. they have now ceased to exist as you sent time down a totally different path
What if you change the rocks? It still makes the water flow differently, and everything, but given that analogy... it would require making a dam or something.

NightCrawler
11-17-2005, 08:16 AM
You guys are blowing my mind. Both theories most EXCELLENTLY thought out. Skynes I like your Hitler scenario but I'll have to point out that with Hitler dead there would be 6 million Jews that wouldn't have perished thus if 1/6 of them joined the military and fought against the Soviets then the Soviets may not have conquered Europe. Ok my scenario may just be BOGUS. But I think it's a facinating topic.
Depends on when you killed him.

I remember in Gargoyles, ya know, the Disney show. They had the Archmage.

He was going to fall to his doom in a chasm. But his future self saved him from that death. But the future self wouldn't have saved him if he wasn't saved himself.

Perfect loop.

That show was underrated.

agent_c68
11-17-2005, 09:28 AM
Here's one problem I've seen with Time travel, knowing what didn't happen. Let's use Hitler as an example, you travel back in time and eliminate him before he caused any trouble. So in X years, when the time machine is invented, there is no reason to go back and stop him so no one was sent. Since no one was sent, Hitler was not eliminated and started WWII.

Unless there is the possibility of the traveler's timeline remaining intact and this other timeline splitting off at the destination of the timetravel to account for the changes the traveler made.

I don't know, I haven't traveled back in time. But it's kind of a funny thing to consider.

Reeper
11-17-2005, 09:46 AM
See but my point is that if you tried to go back in time and eliminate Hitler there is no way that you could be successful because the events with Hitler occurred and the you in the past was obviously not able to stop him since they did happen.

Peace

TheFireBreathes
11-17-2005, 10:10 AM
Kinda like The Butterfly Effect? Sorry Im confused

Reeper
11-17-2005, 11:02 AM
Actually just thought of a cool episode of the Outer Limits I saw the other day that freakishly relates to this. The story was that some guy decided that he was going to go back in history and kill Hitler. So, in order to make it easier he decided to go back to when Hitler would have been a baby. So, he does and he finds baby Hitler and kills him, but the maid that was in charge of taking care of baby Hitler thinks it is her fault so to save her own butt she dumps the dead baby in the river and steals a baby from a homeless woman. So, when the guy returns to the present thinking he had stopped Hitler, he finds that everything still happened. The baby that the maid stole ended up being Adolf and he was the one who ended up killing everyone.

Just thought that was interesting.

Peace

skynes
11-17-2005, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by skynesTook a page out of my own book... Or more specifically "What does it matter" thread.

I was honestly waiting.
I was actually wondering if you were going to start it, but you didn't. Ack well, it's here now! Time to fry our brains :D


The Hitler theory wasn't mine. It's the story from Red Alert and Red Alert 2.

Ok... This changing time thing depends on alternate existances.
If there are say 30 possibilities for a situation, then there are at least 30 possible outcomes and thus 30 different alernate universes.

Given that the above is true. Were you to go back in time and do something, you aren't necessarily changing time, but shifting standard reality into a different outcome. Essentially changed lanes in the road. Of course it's possible that someone in the future will shift us back, or to something else.

Here's the killer head melt: God in relation to temporal physics. This is all theory by the way. I have less than zero to support any of this. Which is the excellent bit of this thread, we can't prove jack! Which makes it fun ;D


God exists outside of time, he is walking up and down the river (which isn't that big actually), much like a kid follows the water from a hose to the drain and puts little paper boats in it.

Anyway. Since God is outside time, should pre-destination be true. Then when we pray people into salvation, we aren't just praying them into salvation, we're praying that God goes back to the beginning of time and elects them to salvation ;)

Another thing, given that God is outside of time, say someone asked you to pray for an interview, but you forgot! And you remembered 30 mins after it was over. You can essentially pray anyway and whatever you prayed God already answered BEFORE your prayed it! Cause He could just go back and do it there and then!

Sweeeeeeeeeeet.

riz
11-17-2005, 11:31 AM
I agree with Reeper 100% on all this time stuff. He put it better than I could have, so I'll leave it to him.

Another thing, given that God is outside of time, say someone asked you to pray for an interview, but you forgot! And you remembered 30 mins after it was over. You can essentially pray anyway and whatever you prayed God already answered BEFORE your prayed it! Cause He could just go back and do it there and then!


I actually never thought about this before in that light, but if God does exist outside of time then what you said here makes perfect sense. So for example, right before you get your exam results back, you can pray for an A and it could still be possible for you to get it despite the fact that you've already taken the test. (I wouldn't advise not studying in the first place - but it's pretty cool to think about God 'travelling' in the past to answer the prayer.)

skynes
11-17-2005, 12:13 PM
I actually never thought about this before in that light, but if God does exist outside of time then what you said here makes perfect sense. So for example, right before you get your exam results back, you can pray for an A and it could still be possible for you to get it despite the fact that you've already taken the test. (I wouldn't advise not studying in the first place - but it's pretty cool to think about God 'travelling' in the past to answer the prayer.)

I wouldn't attempt that specific scenario, but yeah those are the right lines ;D

Reeper
11-17-2005, 12:29 PM
Very interesting way of thinking about how God answers prayer. However the other way to think about it is since God is outside of time and he is omnipotent he already knows the prayers we will pray even without walking up and down the river. He might just be sitting back fishing cause he already has answered all the prayers made forever and we only perceive him as walking up and down the river answering prayers cause we are trapped in this stupid fourth dimension.

By the way that is one of my big problems with Back to the Future. That Doc Brown keeps telling Marty to think fourth dimensionally when he himself isn't. Anyway end rant.

So do we want to take the discussion to the next logical part and talk about alternate realities?

Peace

Spiffles
11-17-2005, 12:45 PM
I'm just gonna say 2 things and throw out my view on things...

I dont beleive in the future as an already create thing.. the future I beleive doesnt exsist untill it is created.. Whatever happens in the future is a result of what we do in the present..
i guess a silly example would be... i'm inside, and its raining outsde.. i have dry clothes on... if i decided (or choose) to stay inside my clothes would remiain dry.. but if i choose to go outside my clothes would get wet... and therefore change what else i had to do.. ie... with wet clothes i would have to get out of them and into dry clothes and wash the wet clothes....

But i believe that nothing is set in stone as to what will happen.. but its what we do and our choices that afect what will happen..


Anyway. Since God is outside time, should pre-destination be true. Then when we pray people into salvation, we aren't just praying them into salvation, we're praying that God goes back to the beginning of time and elects them to salvation ;)


I dont beleive we can pray anyone into salvation.... its everyones individual choice to recieve salvation, and once they are dead, thats it.. all over.. what they choose is whats gonna happen.. once someones is hell.. they not coming back..






anyway.. thats what I beleive so i thought i'd throw it out, take it or leave it.. all is good :)

skynes
11-17-2005, 01:16 PM
I dont beleive we can pray anyone into salvation.... its everyones individual choice to recieve salvation, and once they are dead, thats it.. all over.. what they choose is whats gonna happen.. once someones is hell.. they not coming back..


Please don't twist my words. You knew what I meant. Praying that God will save someone, pray their heart is open, whatever wording you use. Praying that something will happen that will lead to a person accepting Christ.

Spiffles
11-17-2005, 01:21 PM
sorry... thats actually not what i thought you meant.. I thought you whewre talking about trhe same thing the catholics beleive that when someone dies you can pray for them to be saved...

NightCrawler
11-17-2005, 02:23 PM
Here's one problem I've seen with Time travel, knowing what didn't happen. Let's use Hitler as an example, you travel back in time and eliminate him before he caused any trouble. So in X years, when the time machine is invented, there is no reason to go back and stop him so no one was sent. Since no one was sent, Hitler was not eliminated and started WWII.

Unless there is the possibility of the traveler's timeline remaining intact and this other timeline splitting off at the destination of the timetravel to account for the changes the traveler made.

I don't know, I haven't traveled back in time. But it's kind of a funny thing to consider.
Yeah, that is the exact reason I know we cannot consciously change the past. However, if I went back in time and didn't change something so I could change the future events, but somehow did anyway. I would've gone back in time regardless, because the reason was still there.

Like, if I didn't go back in time to kill Hitler. But I go back for other reasons, and did save someone's life that would later kill Hitler. Hitler would be dead in the future, and I would've still gone back in time. Heh, it could be the case that someone did go back in time and killed a guy that was going to kill Hitler. I'm deviating.


I had thought about the whole prayer trancending time bit before. Because it isn't the person praying that trancends time; but rather the listener (God -- who naturally trancends time anyway) who acts on prayer. But I hadn't thought about prayer trancending time in regard to its effects on salvation. Very interesting, dude.

skynes
11-18-2005, 12:30 AM
I think that might be how it's possible for both Free Will and pre-destination to be true at the same time. With regards to both, temporal theory never plays a role. People think that God's electing before time began has happened already and is now fixed and unchangeable. But since God is outside time and not limited by it (unless He wills it) He could very easily go back to the beginning and elect even more.

The changing the past, that depends on what Time is. Is time linear or abstract? Is it fixed or variable?

If time is fixed, then regardless what you do in the past, the same outcome will always happen. Regardless how many stones you throw into the river, the river will keep going the same way with a little disruption. I suppose Terminator is like this. Mucho time travel, mucho disruption, little effect. Judgement day was delayed, but not stopped.

If time is varied, then your changes will have a tremendous affect. You buying the last newspaper in a stand to see the date, may cause someone who was going to buy it, be distracted by reading it and get hit by a car to Never happen! And who knows what that guy would do later in life... He might be worse than Hitler but might discover the cure for Cancer.
Red Alert would follow this theory more.


Terry Pratchett is a bit of a combination. Here's an example from the book Nightwatch [spoiler alert]


Sam Vimes, commander of the watch gets warped back 30 years in time. He lands upon a sergeant, killing him. That sergeant was the one who trained his younger self. Oddly enough the injuries future Sam sustained (damaged eye) forced him to wear an eye-patch, the exact same inury the sergeant had! He ended up taking his place and being the sergeant who trained his younger self! But as Lu-Tze, the sweeper says, Both of these outcomes are true simultaneously. He was trained by this sergeant 30yrs ago and this sergeant was real. But he was ALSO the one who trained himself.

He does go and changes history quite a bit, but ends up with the same outcome with a few minor differences, mainly a particular person knowing about his drop back in time, he knew it for 30 years.

So whether it all happened the first time or if this was the first time is up in the air.

NightCrawler
11-18-2005, 09:21 PM
Is time relative to matter and energy, namely energy? The more energy, the less time transpires? (see theory of relativity for a cross-reference)

skynes
11-19-2005, 09:40 AM
I would say Time's separate to both matter and energy. Both are subject to it and it is subject to neither.

unshakeable15
11-22-2005, 11:22 PM
could you explain that a bit more? i'm not really sure i understand.

not that explaining it will necessarily help, but it's better than nothing. ;)

bob
12-07-2005, 11:54 AM
You know, I have never really agreed with Enistein's theory of Time being the fourth demension, I mean, I understand his theory, but I can't comprehend it, so that is partly why I don't agree with it.

disciple
12-07-2005, 12:37 PM
Scott...


*whiny voice* You're my heeeerooo. :P


Really, when I'm in better mental shape, I'll be frequenting this thread. Time has always been my deepest-down interest.

But I will say that I believe time is varied.

skynes
12-08-2005, 12:26 AM
Got one for you.

Time slows down as you approach the speed of light.

So once you hit the speed of light, time practically stops.

How then does Light go anywhere? If it is frozen in time?

Reeper
12-08-2005, 08:59 AM
Here's one for you Skynes.

K. So we all say see you tomorrow. But when tomorrow comes it is today so really we will be seeing them today, so shouldn't we really say see you today? Also, if that is true, then the song from Annie, you know "the sun'll come out tomorrow" and "tomorrow only a day away" is really a depressing song cause it only points out that tomorrow will never come cause when it does it is today, and if the sun is going to come out tomorrow then apparently the sun will never come out and we will be forced to live out our existence in endless darkness.

So there... :P

Peace

riz
12-08-2005, 10:03 AM
You're simply trying to make hypothetical situations more complicated than they really are. When you say "see you today" that means you will see that person on THAT PARTICULAR DAY and not any other one. You say "see you tomorrow" because the definition of tomorrow will be the day after today. Technically when that day comes it will not be the day after today anymore (obviously), so at that precise moment when you actually DO meet, you will say you met today, but when you made plans beforehand, you would have made plans to meet for the next day - which would be "tomorrow" according to the context of which you spoke.

There's nothing really profound about that.

skynes
12-08-2005, 10:35 AM
Tomorrow and Yesterday are relative terms. The same as "in one hour" means in one hour from now, Tomorrow means the day after today regardless fo what day today is.

So we don't say "I'll see you today" but "I'll see you tomorrow", since tomorrow is relative to today, saying that I will see you not this day, but the next day.

Problem solved.

unshakeable15
12-08-2005, 12:12 PM
agreed, tho i do admire your logic on the Little Orphan Annie song. i've always thought the same thing, actually. ;) tho, not so much a depressing song as much as a procrastinators.

Reeper
12-08-2005, 01:04 PM
You're simply trying to make hypothetical situations more complicated than they really are. When you say "see you today" that means you will see that person on THAT PARTICULAR DAY and not any other one. You say "see you tomorrow" because the definition of tomorrow will be the day after today. Technically when that day comes it will not be the day after today anymore (obviously), so at that precise moment when you actually DO meet, you will say you met today, but when you made plans beforehand, you would have made plans to meet for the next day - which would be "tomorrow" according to the context of which you spoke.

There's nothing really profound about that.


K. How bout I make another stupidly obvious observation like I did before and you all understand I'm joking. I wasn't trying to state anything profound. In fact my post really didn't need any response, though I do appreciate the solution Scott. I've got finals this week what do you expect? :-\

Though I do think the Annie thing is quite profound when you examine all its implications.

Peace

Spiffles
12-08-2005, 03:21 PM
Got one for you.

Time slows down as you approach the speed of light.

So once you hit the speed of light, time practically stops.

How then does Light go anywhere? If it is frozen in time?


Question cause i dont know and am curious.. has anyone been able to prove that is what happens at speed of light.. or is it still just a theory??

---------------------------------------------------


I still think there is no such thing as "time" and its just a measurement made up by humans.. thats just my thoughts anyway..

skynes
12-09-2005, 12:53 AM
I knew you were joking, that's why my response has a tongue twister element, lol.

I still think there is no such thing as "time" and its just a measurement made up by humans..

Interesting idea. What do you think of time then? Overall, how it works, etc.

NightCrawler
12-09-2005, 06:18 PM
Got one for you.

Time slows down as you approach the speed of light.

So once you hit the speed of light, time practically stops.

How then does Light go anywhere? If it is frozen in time?
I'll get a few of my stances on some of the Theory of Relativity.

1) Time wouldn't stop there (or even come close?), it would stop at the infinite-energy mark (mind you, there is no set mark... if it is infinite). It would get really slow though.
2) Light's speed has not been the same 186,000 miles/sec over the existances of the universe.
3) The current speed of light is not the highest possible speed of anything; inifinite numbers speeds are possible, not just the speed light is going at. ALTHOUGH ... if light is the fastest thing in the universe currently existing, than nothing currently existing can go faster.

So, given that time does not stop until infinity is reached, light cannot be 'frozen'. Also, is light material enough to be 'frozen' under any circumstance?

I still think there is no such thing as "time" and its just a measurement made up by humans.. Nah, God made it. He made day and night, evening and morning as measurements. Man just got really technical over it. '3rd hour', 4 seconds, etc.

Spiffles
12-09-2005, 06:37 PM
yeh, i dunno if i think what i did about timr not exsisting.. i keep confusing myself trying to work it out, lol

amodman
12-09-2005, 08:01 PM
*ahem* So I guess I'll lay down my thoughts on this here. Time exists, but only in our temporal physical realm. A teaching I heard once is that all we see/know of God is a 'picture' of himself that he presents to us. His actual self is far too much for our minds to comprehend.

Moving to my own theory, 'Reality', then, is simply a 'picture' of what really is. What is is God. He created everything out of nothing and is everything himself and more than we can comprehend. So we are presented a world which our minds can comprehend. Angels, Demons, etc. exist outside of that realm in the spiritual realm. They, however, have the ability to exist in the physical realm at the same time beause God gave them capability. Angels, Demons, etc., however, are still not omnipotent, all-powerful, & everything as God is, so even the spiritual realm has constraints. Namely, for instance, time.

So, with this picture in mind, imagine that when we die we are released from the physical constraints of our bodies and our souls enter into spirtual realm. Here, a place is set up for us - Paradise or the Lake of Fire (with, more than likely, a new body given to us to dwell within this realm, either that or are souls are alread made to dwell withing it...whatever works, heh). As time progresses, more and more souls are brought into being in the physical realm, while the rest are constantly crossing to the spiritual realm.

For a 'Reality' to exist in which all those souls brought into being in the physical realms do not exist yet, and all those dwelling within Paradise or Fire are back in the physical realm would be impossible unless created by God (not to mention it would, at the same time, need to be seperate from the original reality, or else, I'd suppose, temporal chaos would ensue). This, of course, brings up many problems. For instance, do the souls brought into this new Reality have knowledge from before they were brought into it, or, perhaps, are they simply 'copies' of those from the original reality and, thus, new beings (albeit, beings with prior choices having been made by another soul - this seems wrong, doesn't it? Perhaps because it would be contrary to free will which is God's creation of what is perfect and, therefore, evil)? What happens as time progresses in this new reality? Do souls from the original die, head to the spiritual realm, and then head back to the new one, or are duplicates, instead, made everytime a new soul is 'born'? These and more complications and questions arise in this situation. Only God could handle all this, and it wouldn't even have been possible to be created in the first place unless originated by him - not us (or Angels or Demons for that matter).

So, in essence, time must be fixed. We have, of course, free will, but he who exists without time is present at ALL times and knows EVERYTHING. God is the only one with the capability to manipulate time, but God does not need to do that since, wrap your head around this, he is (in a way) time. He exists everywhere and in everything and outside of it all at the same 'time' (You can't really say that's impossible, he's God. He's supposed to be God-like ;) ). We require time to exist, because we are not [and cannot be like] God. It is an essential element of our existence.

To end, I just want to point that, in the fictional situation where you go back in time and kill Hitler, that you then must have either crossed realities (into something God had already created) and, in effect, had no impact on your own, or you just destroyed your entire reality and created temporal chaos...you know, whatever.

edit: Oh, and I forgot to add, the only time a new Reality most likely will be created is when this one is destroyed by God in the end of Days and all those souls within Paradise or Fire are brought into a new Reality ceated by God in which we can be closer [in essence] to him and perfection exists.

animeraven34
12-15-2005, 04:32 PM
If you will forgive me for saying so, there are a lot of overly wordy, and rather obvious statements in this thread. :P

Time is merely a philosophical concept. The Bible says that God has always been and always will be, thus time is an illusion. When one is going to spend eternity in a spiritual realm, that we ASSUME is not a physical one, then what bearing do mathematics, philosophy, science, etc. have?

No one knows what happens when you approach or reach lightspeed and beyond. Time slowing is merely a theory. I'm not really surprised no one else brought this up: what would travel at those speeds look like? Assume you were travelling at light speed, what would it look like? Don't over complicate. :P You are going as fast as the light around you, so wouldn't you see the exact same thing until you stopped? Wouldn't it LOOK like time had frozen? And what about speeds beyond that? What would an absecence of ALL light look like?

Reality is relative. And God has already made the "new reality" we will go to when we die. They are called Heaven and Hell. Ever heard of them? :P Theorizing and speculating about the after life is pointless. The Bible already tells us that we are going to spend an eternity in either Heaven or Hell.

amodman
12-15-2005, 04:51 PM
Reality is relative. And God has already made the "new reality" we will go to when we die. They are called Heaven and Hell. Ever heard of them? :P Theorizing and speculating about the after life is pointless. The Bible already tells us that we are going to spend an eternity in either Heaven or Hell.

That is theological speculation. I conform to the standpoint that when we die we go to what is called "The Bosom of Abraham" (not in actuality, just how it's refferred to by theologians). This contains both paradise and the lake of fire seperated by the abyss which contains Satan and all his original minions who are one day to be loosed upong the Earth. Only after the end of this world and Satan and all his minions have been defeated, according to this belief, are the true Heaven and Hell to be created. In Hell, both those in the Lake of Fire and all Demons, Nephilim, etc. will be in eternal agony and in complete seperation from God (I know, this isn't a common Sunday morning belief ;) ). Whatever your belief on the subject is, though, I agree, is completely irrelevant.

animeraven34
12-15-2005, 05:07 PM
If you want theological speculation, check out Job: A Comedy of Justice by Robert A. Heinlein. You want theological fact read your Bible.

amodman
12-15-2005, 07:41 PM
If you want theological speculation, check out Job: A Comedy of Justice by Robert A. Heinlein. You want theological fact read your Bible.

My friend, this is theology gleaned from the Bible. There ain't no other kind. The exact reference to the Bosom of Abraham comes from Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man (also from Jewish tradition). Some theologians say Jesus was just using a popular model of the afterlife to get across his message, others say not. I tend to agree with not. I could go into this more, but I don't feel like it atm, and this thread, after all, is about temporal theory - not end time and Heaven/Hell theory.

skynes
12-16-2005, 01:12 AM
What would travelling at light speed look like:

If you are moving at the same speed as light, then you will see black, cause no light will be hitting your optical nerves.

Then again, the light inside your ship will be moving even faster, speed of light, within speed of light. So you should see everything in your ship ok.
Everything outside however is different.

If you are faster than the speed of light, then you are hitting light, not light hitting you, and the light would always be directly ahead. So there'd be one big light spot to the front of the ship.
Behind, since you're now looking backwards and light is going the opposite way, there'd be nothing but black.


How's that?

NightCrawler
12-16-2005, 11:55 PM
What would travelling at light speed look like:

If you are moving at the same speed as light, then you will see black, cause no light will be hitting your optical nerves.

Then again, the light inside your ship will be moving even faster, speed of light, within speed of light. So you should see everything in your ship ok.
Everything outside however is different.

If you are faster than the speed of light, then you are hitting light, not light hitting you, and the light would always be directly ahead. So there'd be one big light spot to the front of the ship.
Behind, since you're now looking backwards and light is going the opposite way, there'd be nothing but black.


How's that?
Gosh, and what of the radiation?!


Burn up. Instantly.

skynes
12-17-2005, 11:27 AM
Would radiation have long enough contact with you to do anything? Prolonged exposure kills, a few moments (depending on type and power) won't be that bad.

We're exposed to radiation every single day from the sun. But it takes 70+ years to kill us.

whereami
12-17-2005, 01:04 PM
dude this thread freakin rocks.

anyway, in reguards to the whole time slowing down at the speed of light thing (which, i hear, has a good bit of scientific evidence behind it), i heard one really cool theory that basically said that if you took some dudes and put them in a space ship and sent them out into space and accelerated them at a rediculously high speed (the only way they think that it would be possible to reach such speeds is to somehow use a black hole and angle the entry into it just right so they swing rigt by it and sort of "surf" out of it, its a weird concept, but anyway, rediculously high speed...) then when they made it back to earth, more time would have passed for earth than for them. of course, it probably still would have been years for the people in space, but it would have been more years for the people on earth.

as for going back in time, i dont think its possible. but, If it ever will be possible to go back in time, then that means that either (a) when it is discovered how to do it (in the future) then it is going to be restricted or something like that, because otherwise we would have already found people from the future in our time that have come back. or, (b) this entire reality that we live in is going to be re-written as soon as someone comes back in time. >_<, wait, im getting lost, this is awsomely confusing.

or else none of this exists int he first place and it's all just a government conpriracy to steal our lunch money. that would work too.

skynes
12-17-2005, 01:34 PM
I've heard that theory before.

Time is relative. Apparently, once you get close to the speed of light, Time slows down greatly for you. So while a hundred years has passed on earth, it's been a week for you.

NightCrawler
12-17-2005, 07:45 PM
Heard that theory...

But blackholes?... No way, and yeah... surfing it doesn't make sense. But that is for another thread.

whereami
12-18-2005, 10:12 AM
yeah, i never quite understood how the black hole thing would work either, but apperantly theres no way we could reach near the speed of light using fuel prepulsion, so we would have to somehow harnes the pulling power of a black hole, *shrugs* leave it up to those crazy NASA folks i guess.

NightCrawler
12-18-2005, 05:52 PM
Would radiation have long enough contact with you to do anything? Prolonged exposure kills, a few moments (depending on type and power) won't be that bad.

We're exposed to radiation every single day from the sun. But it takes 70+ years to kill us.
... Actually, if a mass had such a high state of kenetic energy, what would keep it from shooting everywhere in the plasma state of matter? I mean, cohesion has limits.... and our bodies are made mainly of water.

skynes
12-19-2005, 12:48 AM
I suppose the ship itself would need some kind of barrier that keeps everything inside it at a constant state of low energy.

Reeper
01-03-2006, 12:44 PM
Hey just read a very interesting Michael Crichton book called "Timeline".

It was very interesting. His idea is that we all see time wrong. We all view it as flowing like a river. He says basically it just is. There really is no way to describe it and also there is no way to travel to the past. However the idea he puts forth in the story is that instead of traveling back in time it may be possible for people to travel to different dimensions which exist at the same time as ours and exist at some time in the past. The way he explains the existence of other dimensions is this. If you have two walls, one with a slit in it and one just behind that and you shine a light through the slit what will you get on the wall behind it? A single line of light right? If you add a second slit you will get four lines. However if you add a third line you will not get the logical six lines. Instead you receive five I think. And the more lines you add the less intuitive the process gets. This was first explained away by the fact that light is a wave and that the corresponding waves of light going throught the slits cancel each other out and produce the pattern of lines and dark spaces. However, in order to see if this was correct there have been experiments done that only allow one photon of light to pass through each slit. Since only one photon is going through the waves should not be able to cancel each other out right? Well, the same results occurred so what caused the wave interference. He says that the resultant wave interference is a result of photons in other dimensions very close to our own. He says this therefore proves the existence of other dimensions and so in order to send his characters to the other dimensions they utilize quantum tech. which allows them to shrink small enough to fit between the gaps in the quantum foam in the universe and then reassemble in the new dimension. The dimension they get sent to exists in the high middle ages and is so close to our dimension that it must at some point down the line overlap with ours cause one of the characters stays back and exists as a historical figure in our present day dimension.

It is kind of hard to explain, but I thought it had some very interesting ideas of time travel. It is an excellent book and y'all should read it. By the way I also liked it cause he agrees with me on time travel.

Peace

NightCrawler
01-03-2006, 09:49 PM
Whoa.
http://www.toastedpixel.com/comic/matrixwhoa.jpg
http://www.toastedpixel.com/comic/matrixwhoa.jpg

unshakeable15
01-04-2006, 10:28 PM
i love Timeline. the book, not the movie. movie does a horrible job, especially explaining the theory.

as for the theory in the book, i forgot exactly what Crichton said, and recently i've come up with a thought that is similar to what he says in the book. we all think of time as a line, you can travel forward (at normal pace or fast forward via a time machine) or backward (only possibly via a time machine). but what if time is, instead, a plane.

for all the geometry-challenged, a plane is essentially a line, but instead of continuing for infinity only in two direction, it continues for infinity as a flat surface. like a never-ending table-top.

so, what if instead of just moving forward or backward, you could move side to side as well. or, to put it in more directional speak, forward-left.

so, not only would you be able to move within your own time, but it would connect you to time throughout every dimension. you could go back to the time of the dinosaurs (using our time as a reference, of course) in dimension 45A, or forward into the time of moon colonies (again) in dimension 14w.

disciple
01-04-2006, 10:33 PM
That was a theory I held when I was younger, but lately I've loosened my grip on it; when you're writing books that have nothing to do with time travel, you tend to let slip certain views for the sake of focus. But that's just me getting immersed in my writing. :P

I always held that there were separate dimensions (which supported my theory that my dreams connected me with my polar-reverse self) and that, in a way, we have at least two of ourselves in existence at once.

That was what I held onto when I was younger, though.