asparagus
12-08-2005, 10:29 AM
Here's a story of it. It all seems terribly sad to me. He was just coming back from a missions trip in Equador.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5770763.html

Isildur9473
12-08-2005, 10:51 AM
I hate to sound cold, but that guy got what he deserved. Mentally disabled or not, Air Marshall's have the responsibility to protect everyone on that plane, and on the ground around them, and that's exactly what they did.

amodman
12-08-2005, 12:05 PM
He told the station he couldn't fault the air marshals, but he questioned the use of "deadly force in a situation where his wife was running right behind yelling he's bipolar and he's not on his meds.''

I wonder were it really a mental disability or demonic attack? But then again, I always wonder that.

lamb_servant72
12-08-2005, 12:15 PM
I wonder why he wasn't on his meds.

aliengurl7
12-08-2005, 01:47 PM
He should've taken his meds before he went on the jet.Its terrible that it had to happen but he's to blame. It could've been avoided.

terrasin
12-08-2005, 03:03 PM
I hate to sound cold, but that guy got what he deserved. Mentally disabled or not, Air Marshall's have the responsibility to protect everyone on that plane, and on the ground around them, and that's exactly what they did.
I agree. The Air Marshalls were doing their job. The guy should have been on his meds. For whatever reason he wasn't, doing something like that puts people at risk. I'm glad to see Air Marshalls are doing their job protecting people.

CJ

john316
12-08-2005, 03:11 PM
I agree. The Air Marshalls were doing their job. The guy should have been on his meds. For whatever reason he wasn't, doing something like that puts people at risk. I'm glad to see Air Marshalls are doing their job protecting people.

CJ

As much as my heart goes out to the family of this man I must agree that I am glad to hear that the Air Marshalls performed their job which is to protect the plane and its passengers.

It also sends a message to terrorist that we are better prepared to defend ourselves then we were pre 9/11.

Aragornsgirl217
12-08-2005, 04:05 PM
^^agreed :o

as~i~lay~dying
12-08-2005, 04:18 PM
wow...thats sad~~ but i do agree with everyone....they were protecting other poeple~~~

skilltroks
12-08-2005, 05:21 PM
The air marshell should be tried [in court]. I do understand that they were saving other people. But, I definately would make my decison once I get proof that he was bipolar, and so forth.

Isildur9473
12-08-2005, 05:31 PM
The air marshell should be tried [in court]. I do understand that they were saving other people. But, I definately would make my decison once I get proof that he was bipolar, and so forth.

Why waste more money on this? Spend millions to determine something we already know? Why hold hearings for a guy doing his job?

terrasin
12-08-2005, 06:10 PM
The air marshell should be tried [in court]. I do understand that they were saving other people. But, I definately would make my decison once I get proof that he was bipolar, and so forth.
They don't have time to make that decision in tense situations like that. They are there to protect people. They have to assume the person does have a bomb and deal with the situation.

/I don't believe there is a such thing as BiPolar it's not scientifically proven; just theroy.
//Drugs do funny things to people. Even drugs made to help...

CJ

as~i~lay~dying
12-08-2005, 07:58 PM
Why waste more money on this? Spend millions to determine something we already know? Why hold hearings for a guy doing his job?
exactly! they told the guy to stop...he didnt they had no choice to shoot to save other people!

lamb_servant72
12-09-2005, 01:58 AM
/I don't believe there is a such thing as BiPolar it's not scientifically proven; just theroy.

CJ

CJ, there are many things in the Bible that have not been scientifically proven. Does that mean you don't believe in those things?

Although, I do see what you are saying. But, since we are throwing around opinions...

I have spent time with someone who has the symptoms of bi-polar disorder, before and after medication, and I believe in the theory!

Compare this guys action that day without his meds with the description his neighbors and co-workers give of him.

It is really sad. I wonder if they traveled out of the country without enough meds to cover the time they were going to be gone.

skynes
12-09-2005, 02:38 AM
The air marshell should be tried [in court]. I do understand that they were saving other people. But, I definately would make my decison once I get proof that he was bipolar, and so forth.

I don't think he should be tried. It was part of his job.

If he was Bi-polar then that makes the situation even more complicated, as he wouldn't have been thinking straight and if he did have a bomb, talking him out of using it would be out of the question.

The marshall had to react and quickly. Sitting down to think things through is out of the question, It was a do or die situation and they chose Do.

Aragornsgirl217
12-09-2005, 04:16 AM
/I don't believe there is a such thing as BiPolar it's not scientifically proven; just theroy.


My cousin and friend are bipolar. I believe the theory.

md4j
12-09-2005, 05:25 AM
The air marshell should be tried [in court]. I do understand that they were saving other people. But, I definately would make my decison once I get proof that he was bipolar, and so forth.He should be recognized as a great marshall who did his job effectively.

Reeper
12-09-2005, 05:37 AM
Does anybody know how long he was off his meds? I've heard both he wasn't on his meds that day and just he wasn't on his meds. If the first is the case than I have trouble believing that him not being on his meds would really effect much. The meds for most psychological diseases take a very long time to get through your system and if he had only been off of them one day there would not have been a noticeable effect if one at all. If the latter is true I still have a problem with this story cause bi-polar people generally do not suffer from hallucinations. If he suffered from some mild form of schizophrenia or some other disease that constitutes hallucinations along with bi-polar disorder than o.k., but this hasn't been mentioned at all. On the most part bi-polar people have violent mood swings, one day they are really up, like thinking they are more powerful than God up, and the next they are down, like close to suicide down. The more I read about this story the more I think that this guy was really suffering from a soup of mental disorders and he was misdiagnosed.

I do agree with everyone else though the Air Marshall was doing his job and should not be tried.

Peace

lamb_servant72
12-09-2005, 10:51 AM
There are different types of bipolar and there are different side effects from coming off of the different types of medication. There are a few medications that can have a drastic, immediate affect.

I agree that the Air Marshall shouldn't be tried.

NightCrawler
12-09-2005, 06:28 PM
They don't have time to make that decision in tense situations like that. They are there to protect people. They have to assume the person does have a bomb and deal with the situation.

/I don't believe there is a such thing as BiPolar it's not scientifically proven; just theroy.
//Drugs do funny things to people. Even drugs made to help...

CJ
Yes, exactly. It is sad given the circumstance, but... better 'be safe than sorry'... : /

Bipolar disorder is real. Manic and depressive states? What? Yeah. These. They happen at random intervals. Manic state is very spurratic, very emotional, and very unrealistic. Depressive is very slow, very downtrodden, and very unrealistic. I want to take over the world! Next day: I wish I could just die.

Here's a scan on brain activity on a patient during his manias and depressions (different days):
http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t058/T058752A.jpg
http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t058/T058752A.jpg

lamb_servant72
12-10-2005, 06:06 AM
Thanks for sharing that, Jonathan. Although, I do prefer an example of the thoughts of a bipolar person more along the lines of:

Today - spending all of their money on research and equipment to save the world from AIDS or world hunger; having grandious ideas of doing those things and winning the Nobel Peace Prize; (not needing any sleep whatsoever).

A week later - not knowing why they were born; wanting to die; sleeping 10 hours and still feeling weak and tired; feeling like a horrible person and having irrational thoughts about themselves.

skilletosis
12-10-2005, 05:13 PM
The Air Marshalls did thier jobs correctly. They aren't doctors who have the time to test and diagnose. They were in a situation that lasted a couple of minutes at best and had to make a life or death decision. Could you just imagine if the guy had a bomb and it blew up. Oh my gosh the lawsuits would already be in motion.

Isildur9473
12-10-2005, 09:03 PM
The Air Marshalls did thier jobs correctly. They aren't doctors who have the time to test and diagnose. They were in a situation that lasted a couple of minutes at best and had to make a life or death decision. Could you just imagine if the guy had a bomb and it blew up. Oh my gosh the lawsuits would already be in motion.

Yep. I want to be a Federal Agent for a living. I want to serve my country in that capacity, yet it pisses me off that I could be in a position like this, and end up killing someone in defense of others, then be at risk of losing my job.

NightCrawler
12-11-2005, 09:38 PM
Lamb_servant, much better way of explaining it. MUCH better. Thanks.

alorian
12-12-2005, 06:10 PM
Airmarshalls were doing there job. They did the right thing.

As far as bipolar, ADD, etc, I believe they are either personality traits that God intended, or demonic presenses.

asparagus
12-13-2005, 07:25 AM
I started this post very sympathetic to the Alpizar family and as a tribute to a missionary who was serving Christ in spite of his "thorn in his flesh."

I think it is way too early for any of us to make a judgement about what should happen to the two officers that shot him (there was one present who didn't). We simply don't know the facts, and unless we get seated in a jury box, I doubt many of us will really read through the court transcripts in order to figure out all the facts.

Where I come from, shooting someone who is unarmed, even if you thought they were armed, is always an officer's worst nightmare. I'm sure the marshalls involved never wanted to kill anyone; I think we can assume that. But for all we know, they may be privately admitting to themselves that it was a terrible mistake on their part. We just don't know, and it would be foolish to believe that a short press release is going to enlighten us.

If we insist on making judgements on such an unknown situation, we should qualify the statements with phrases like, "Assuming (this) happened, I think..." or "If this is how it happened, then..."

In the meantime, let us pray for the marshalls involved and their families, as well as the missionary family of Rigoberto Alpizar.

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 08:10 AM
I started this post very sympathetic to the Alpizar family and as a tribute to a missionary who was serving Christ in spite of his "thorn in his flesh."

I think it is way too early for any of us to make a judgement about what should happen to the two officers that shot him (there was one present who didn't). We simply don't know the facts, and unless we get seated in a jury box, I doubt many of us will really read through the court transcripts in order to figure out all the facts.

Where I come from, shooting someone who is unarmed, even if you thought they were armed, is always an officer's worst nightmare. I'm sure the marshalls involved never wanted to kill anyone; I think we can assume that. But for all we know, they may be privately admitting to themselves that it was a terrible mistake on their part. We just don't know, and it would be foolish to believe that a short press release is going to enlighten us.

If we insist on making judgements on such an unknown situation, we should qualify the statements with phrases like, "Assuming (this) happened, I think..." or "If this is how it happened, then..."

In the meantime, let us pray for the marshalls involved and their families, as well as the missionary family of Rigoberto Alpizar.

I couldn't care less if he was a Christian or not. The fact is, he yelled "I have a bomb" and he died. The Marshall's were correct.

alorian
12-13-2005, 02:19 PM
Exactly. He yelled "I have a bomb" and wound up reaching violently into his bag. What would you have done? Shot one person, or risked a planeful?
Yeah, it's sad what happened to him, but were it me in the marshalls' position, I'd have done the same thing.

asparagus
12-13-2005, 04:34 PM
"Reaching violently"? Please, where did you read that? Let's not discuss what we don't know, or at least qualify your statements.

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 04:49 PM
"Reaching violently"? Please, where did you read that? Let's not discuss what we don't know, or at least qualify your statements.

So I don't understand why you're defending this guy. Are you trying to say that Federal Agents should take the mental health of anyone they come into contact with into consideration? Or that if a guy yells 'I have a bomb' on a plane, he shouldn't be killed?

alorian
12-13-2005, 07:02 PM
Sigh. It was in the news somewhere, I believe it was one of the air marshal's words, but I have no idea where the story is now, though. By their words, the man said he had a bomb, he reached into the bag, they shot him. Plain and simple. I'm frustrated, so I'm ending this post, sorry.

terrasin
12-13-2005, 09:40 PM
Agreed. The Marshalls did their job. They don't have to like what they did, but they had to do what they had to do. Someone yells "I have a bomb", they take action.

What's funny, Asparagus, is that had this person not been a "christian", I highly doubt you would be defending him.

CJ

asparagus
12-14-2005, 05:46 AM
What's funny, Asparagus, is that had this person not been a "christian", I highly doubt you would be defending him.I quite seriously would still be feeling the same way; it wasn't until later that I learned he was returning from a missionary trip. And I don't know which of my posts was defending him.

asparagus
12-14-2005, 05:48 AM
So I don't understand why you're defending this guy. Are you trying to say that Federal Agents should take the mental health of anyone they come into contact with into consideration? Or that if a guy yells 'I have a bomb' on a plane, he shouldn't be killed?
Greg, you take all the information you can into consideration. The more information you have, the better, and you take it ALL into consideration. Black and white situations are very difficult to come by. I can think of circumstances where I could shoot someone holding a rock under the right circumstances, and not shoot someone who points a gun at me.

Again, not defending him. Just because I think it is tragic and we shouldn't rush to conclusions doesn't mean I am defending him.

Isildur9473
12-14-2005, 08:48 AM
Greg, you take all the information you can into consideration. The more information you have, the better, and you take it ALL into consideration. Black and white situations are very difficult to come by. I can think of circumstances where I could shoot someone holding a rock under the right circumstances, and not shoot someone who points a gun at me.

Well this is a black and white circumstance. Suppose we hadn't shot and killed him, he still could have hit a detonator and blown the plane up. His wife could have been playing along with him.

So, we can't just hope that one woman is right against the lives of everyone else on that plane. If they had taken time to consider if he was lying or not, he could have pressed a button killing everyone.

NightCrawler
12-15-2005, 11:22 AM
If [someone says 'I have a bomb'], then [shoot person claimed to have bomb]
Assumptions:
1) Anyone who has a bomb on a plane must have a malicious purpose.
2) No one would claim that unless he was a delinquent, insane, or telling the truth.
3) Shooting the person will decrease chance of detonation.
-------
This is the BEST reasoning and response. Unless it was a 10 year old kid yelling it, I would go with this reasoning.