alorian
12-12-2005, 06:13 PM
Right here is the first story I found on this guy. He's being executed tonight. I'm glad. What do you all think? (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-12/13/content_3914147.htm)

Isildur9473
12-12-2005, 06:31 PM
Bye Bye Stanley.

I agree, I have no tolereance for gang related crimes. Fry the sonuvagun.

unshakeable15
12-12-2005, 11:03 PM
link wouldn't work.

but i found another. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200512/s1530176.htm)

looks like he's got just another minute to live.

skynes
12-13-2005, 12:41 AM
God will forgive us of our sins and give us the strength to fight sin.
But He will NOT get us out of the consequences of our actions, good or bad. If you do something deserving of prison, then God will allow you to go to prison, not because you're not forgiven, but because you need to face the consequences of your actions.

asparagus
12-13-2005, 07:04 AM
Hmmm, I think God has mercy on us here on earth as well. He's not obligated to, but sometimes he does.

Additionally, I think God's forgiveness is complete, whole, and perfect. To save us from the eternal prison but then force us into a lifetime of prison doesn't seem consistent.

God certainly didn't make St. Paul face the consequences of his action.

asparagus
12-13-2005, 07:05 AM
Right here is the first story I found on this guy. He's being executed tonight. I'm glad. What do you all think? (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-12/13/content_3914147.htm)
I think we should be cautious about being glad when someone dies...

asparagus
12-13-2005, 07:14 AM
Bye Bye Stanley.

I agree, I have no tolereance for gang related crimes. Fry the sonuvagun.
Sorry for all the posts. Isildur, what if God said he forgave everyone, except those who committed murder? Then we would all be condemned, wouldn't we?

As I look at the posts on this topic, it as if HE has committed murder, but WE have not? Just how is that attitude Biblical?

Skynes, if you got arrested today for hating someone with your thoughts, I would be very willing to invest in your defense. Would you simply resign yourself to the situation and own up to a death sentence?

Do we really believe that we all deserve death, or is that just something we say we believe so as to sound Christian?

skynes
12-13-2005, 07:33 AM
Follow your logic to its end.

A multiple murderer and rapist, admits his crime and says hes now a Christian and God has forgiven him.

Should he face prison time?

Using your logic, No.

Additionally, I think God's forgiveness is complete, whole, and perfect. To save us from the eternal prison but then force us into a lifetime of prison doesn't seem consistent.

God may have forgiven you, and you may be free from eternal punishment, but that does not negate you from punishment on earth.
Also, what's 100 years? Its meaningless in the long run

God certainly didn't make St. Paul face the consequences of his action.

Paul spent 3 days blind, in terror of having seen God.
He screwed with Gods people, God screwed with him.
I think that's facing the consequences...

asparagus
12-13-2005, 07:55 AM
Don't you think 3 days is a bit of a light sentence for being the sinner among sinners?

Being picky, I might object to any phrase along the lines of God "screwing" with anyone. I think a better phrase might be "God disciplining those he loves." Anyway, being picky, I know...I'm just not sure if the first phrase gives God the revernce he deserves.

Scott, I appreciate your scenario with the serial killer-rapist. First, I think we should make a distinction between life in jail and the death penalty. Second, I agree that extending grace and mercy to those who don't deserve it is foolishness. But as you said yourself, "what's 100 years," which I would apply to myself. I think I might actually be okay with a serial-rapist-murder-now-Christian moving in next door and becoming our neighbor and getting to know him/her. I mean, even if he does end up killing me, aren't I but a vapor in the wind?

Realistically, I might have some issues with a serial murder rapist. But if I lived in a neighbor with a registered sex offender as a neighbor, they would be the first guest I would have over to my house.

As I mentioned in to kill or not to kill, I do agree with you to an extent. We both want people to own up to what they did, we both want people to improve, we both want society to be protected. However, if we can be sure that the criminal isn't going to relapse, I think we should consider letting them out. Obviously, the chances of relapse should be rated against the seriousness of the crime they might committ.

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 08:03 AM
Sorry for all the posts. Isildur, what if God said he forgave everyone, except those who committed murder? Then we would all be condemned, wouldn't we?

I haven't killed anyone. It's not up to me who dies, and who does not. :\

As I look at the posts on this topic, it as if HE has committed murder, but WE have not? Just how is that attitude Biblical?

He has committed murder. We never have.

Skynes, if you got arrested today for hating someone with your thoughts, I would be very willing to invest in your defense. Would you simply resign yourself to the situation and own up to a death sentence?

This isn't 1984.

Do we really believe that we all deserve death, or is that just something we say we believe so as to sound Christian?

To be honest, I don't think I do. I can think of plenty of people who don't deserve to die.

asparagus
12-13-2005, 08:10 AM
A practical example:

Sierra and I were driving downtown when someone was tailgating us like mad. They were so close with their big black SUV that all I could see in the mirror was the grill. Then, get this, he revs up his engine and smashes into the back of our car! It was completely out of the blue. Then he floored it again and smashed into us a second time, came up over our rear bumper, and started to push our car.

Then, I think he started to settle down, got a little scared, and flew past us and took the first right (it had been ten seconds of terror up until this point). I was already on the phone with 911 at this point, and we started to follow him and he quickly gave up and just parked and waited for the police to arrive.

Here's the 911 Tape: .mov (http://alexandsierra.com/videolibrary/911dispatchtape.mov) | .avi (http://alexandsierra.com/videolibrary/911dispatchtape.avi) (it's a little embarassing).

The other driver ended up getting charged with a misdemeanor which would have involved jail time and a suspended license. However, he owned up to it, apologized, and agreed to do something about his anger. We then decided to let him plea-bargin it down to an offense that put FOUR points on his license, and would result in fines and restitution around $800.

I forgave him, I hold no grudge against him, and I hope he does well. If he wanted to come over for dinner, we would welcome him. And, we gave him a legal break because he demonstrated remorse, and I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt (if he hadn't demonstrated remorse, I would have been willing to go to trial; maybe that is how God would have woken him up). Additionally, I didn't think he should get off scot-free, because I still had doubts about just how genuine he was and I did want him to remember this experience and have something on his record to give him additional incentive not to do it again.

I give this practical example for two reasons: 1) it's fun talking about myself 2) so we don't split hairs

asparagus
12-13-2005, 08:14 AM
I haven't killed anyone. It's not up to me who dies, and who does not. He has committed murder. We never have.

Mathew 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%205&version=31)
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

as~i~lay~dying
12-13-2005, 08:15 AM
I believe he should die. I'm not happy,in fact im sad that he is probablly going to hell. But he killed four innocent people! Of course he should be put to death...i just hope someone showed him the way to heaven!And Greg...we all deserve to die! None of us even come close to the perfcetion of Jesus Christ. He died when he didnt do ANYTHING wrong...how can we not deserve to?

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 08:16 AM
Mathew 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%205&version=31)
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Now lets pretend like we're in the real world. The guy deserves to die, he killed 4 people. If we act lenient now, more people might be encouraged to kill.

We should not let this country be led by the Bible. That's done great things for other countries in the past, like the Inquisition, the Crusades, "Killing for Christ" etc. If we inject more and more Christian principles into this country, we'll soon just be another theocracy. Religion has no place in state.

Cornflake
12-13-2005, 09:42 AM
The Inquisition and things were far fetched Catholic practices that were religous coated politics. The Crusades actually had merit. They tried to re-take the Holy Land from the Muslems. I can think of battles fought over more rediculous things. And the Crusades, I believe were part of God's plan. Before the Crusades, life was stagnate. During the Crusades, people traveled, and found exotic things they never had before ( spices, silk, gun powder, etc) and it encouraged trade and exploration. It eventually led to the Renassiance ( sp?)

I believe we should have a measure of God in this countries law. I don't necessarily believe people should be jailed/killed for premarital sex, etc ( thats pretty extreme Puritan and Old Testament principles to me) but I think if the country had better , more God centered , moral leaders, the United States would be a better place.

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 10:26 AM
The Inquisition and things were far fetched Catholic practices that were religous coated politics. The Crusades actually had merit. They tried to re-take the Holy Land from the Muslems. I can think of battles fought over more rediculous things. And the Crusades, I believe were part of God's plan. Before the Crusades, life was stagnate. During the Crusades, people traveled, and found exotic things they never had before ( spices, silk, gun powder, etc) and it encouraged trade and exploration. It eventually led to the Renassiance ( sp?)

Some of em were still wrong. What's the point of killing to retake "holy land"? Isn't that against Christian belief?

I believe we should have a measure of God in this countries law. I don't necessarily believe people should be jailed/killed for premarital sex, etc ( thats pretty extreme Puritan and Old Testament principles to me) but I think if the country had better , more God centered , moral leaders, the United States would be a better place.

Morality is defined by each person's standards. This government, is meant to be completely void of religious influence. That's the way it should be. This is the "Land of the free", not the "Land where you can be free as long as you live under Christian morals"

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 10:30 AM
And Greg...we all deserve to die! None of us even come close to the perfcetion of Jesus Christ. He died when he didnt do ANYTHING wrong...how can we not deserve to?

He's God and we're not. We don't have the capability to not sin. I'm glad he died for our sins, but what's the point in looking at everything we do as rags compared to him? Plenty of us don't deserve to die for something we had no control over.

I don't see how this argument is logical. He never sinned, he never did anything wrong. Ok, that's good. But that doesn't relate to us at all. We don't possess the capability to ever acchieve things as great as Jesus did, so what's the point in holding ourselves to impossible standards?

Cornflake
12-13-2005, 10:30 AM
If Muslems came and took over NYC and LA Im sure most people would be all for us taking them back..

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 10:32 AM
If Muslems came and took over NYC and LA Im sure most people would be all for us taking them back..

Yeah, I would be since that's an invasion of our country. We've never had Israel under our control.

Cornflake
12-13-2005, 10:35 AM
Thinking on it a little more.. The "holy land" Israel is promised to the Jews. If you screw with the Jews, you get screwed. I also believe if you help the Jews, God will help you. Maybe thats why the blessings of increased trade and things followed. But this is going off topic, so anyway. Yeah, The guy killed folks. Anything less than life in prison would not do. I'd personally probably rather have the death sentence than rot in prison all my life.

Just cause he converted to Christianity later, doesn't mean he should be let off. If he was, then everyone who was on death row would claim to have converted.

And about the us and murder thing. We are sinners. Just one tiny sin is enough to damn us. Jesus died to forgive our sins. He didn't have to, but our sins are what kept him nailed to the cross. Our actions (sins) are what murdered Jesus.

john316
12-13-2005, 12:59 PM
IMO...Williams deserved to die for one reason...because the law said that was to be his punishment so within the confines of the law justice was served.

Alex... you are to be commended for forgiving the guy and allowing him to plea to a lesser charge however if you had forgave him and still let the courts give him maximum punishment it would not have made you a lesser Christian as you were still acting within the laws of the land.

I hope the families of the victims of Mr Williams find it in their hearts to forgive him but they did no wrong by allowing the courts to enforce the punishment instilled on him by a lawful jury.

Just my .02 worth

alorian
12-13-2005, 02:14 PM
Alex, I'm not glad he's dying per se, I'm glad that he's being made an example. He's a founder of a major gang. He was caught, and now he's being used to show what happens to caught gang members. That's why I'm glad. If the founder of a gang this huge is caught, what about the punk thug on the street? People might think twice or even three times before joining a gang. Might.

shakes
12-13-2005, 02:45 PM
Laws can be changed. I'm lucky to live in Canada where capital punishmemt is gone. You may feel that people like Stanley or even Paul Bernardo deserve to die for the things that they done. Remember one thing , the crimes they commited are nothing compared to what we all did. We all killed Christ thats the biggest SIN ever! We are lucky now to have Gods grace, so I understand the law, but I also understand Gods grace and that we as Christians should not condem others but leave that to God.

skilletosis
12-13-2005, 03:32 PM
Realistically, I might have some issues with a serial murder rapist. But if I lived in a neighbor with a registered sex offender as a neighbor, they would be the first guest I would have over to my house.


Asparagus, have you really thought that through. I bet you would think twice if it were a child rapist and you had children. Or let's say a guy who was busted for entering the home of a neighbor and forcing himself on the newlywed bride while her husband was at work. Now if we had to get down to the nitty gritty details I could come up with 20 different sex offence scenarios(but I won't go there)that would make you and your wife feel too uncomfortable to have that kind of company in your home. I'm sorry but I don't at all think you truely mean that.

As far as Tookie goes he was given an appropriate punishment for his crimes. Crimes that were proved in court which 20 something years of apeals could not come up with reasonable doubt enough to reverse the decision. What really made me want to puke was the fact that Jesse Jackson was out there championing Tookies cause but could not name even one of the victims.

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 03:54 PM
Laws can be changed. I'm lucky to live in Canada where capital punishmemt is gone. You may feel that people like Stanley or even Paul Bernardo deserve to die for the things that they done. Remember one thing , the crimes they commited are nothing compared to what we all did. We all killed Christ thats the biggest SIN ever! We are lucky now to have Gods grace, so I understand the law, but I also understand Gods grace and that we as Christians should not condem others but leave that to God.

So I murdered Christ? I'd like to know how that works. That man killed 4 living, breathing people here, and now. Christ was killed by Romans/Pharisees 2,000 years ago. I'm not seeing how I killed him. :\

alorian
12-13-2005, 03:59 PM
Yes, elaborate, clarify, please.

disciple
12-13-2005, 04:14 PM
Laws can be changed. I'm lucky to live in Canada where capital punishmemt is gone. You may feel that people like Stanley or even Paul Bernardo deserve to die for the things that they done. Remember one thing , the crimes they commited are nothing compared to what we all did. We all killed Christ thats the biggest SIN ever! We are lucky now to have Gods grace, so I understand the law, but I also understand Gods grace and that we as Christians should not condem others but leave that to God.
Wow, so you're saying we killed Christ, but these murderers who obviously have no love for God didn't, so they shouldn't die. Ponder, ponder.

fire-inside
12-13-2005, 05:16 PM
I love how Christians will preach compassion, and then say things like "Fry him." Disgusting.


Alex, I think you might be the only one with a square head on your shoulders.

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 05:21 PM
I love how Christians will preach compassion, and then say things like "Fry him." Disgusting.

I love how you continue to be a Christian when you find most other Christians disgusting. :\

Compassion and common sense are two different things. Compassion is forgiving someone, common sense is killing someone who killed 4 other innocent people.

animeraven34
12-13-2005, 05:25 PM
I love how you continue to be a Christian when you find most other Christians disgusting. :\

Compassion and common sense are two different things. Compassion is forgiving someone, common sense is killing someone who killed 4 other innocent people.
You're wasting your time. Common sense doesn't count for anything anymore. ::]

aliengurl7
12-13-2005, 05:29 PM
She's not calling christians disgusting but how they can do that.

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 05:30 PM
She's not calling christians disgusting but how they can do that.

Easily, strapping him to a chair, and flicking a switch.

And yes, she is calling them disgusting. People reflect their actions, and with her calling our actions disgusting...

animeraven34
12-13-2005, 05:32 PM
I love how Christians will preach compassion, and then say things like "Fry him." Disgusting.

She's not calling christians disgusting but how they can do that.
Yeah, cause you know, hypocrisy is only something Christians do.

Isildur9473
12-13-2005, 05:34 PM
Ralph Waldo Emerson is great.

disciple
12-13-2005, 06:06 PM
Disgusting.
Because I so need you to tell me that I'm a perverse, disgusting excuse for a human being for me to know.

Mr. Xcitement
12-13-2005, 06:59 PM
First, I must agree most "Christians" are disgusting (I am not aiming this at any particular person). The reason I say this is that the majority if "Christians" are only Christian in name and do not actually follow what they claim to believe, ie: People who think they go to Heaven just by going to church, but then will go out and put others down and leave the helpless alone. Christians are not supposed to be known for what they say really, but by what we do, by our actions, and saying someone should die, for they have commited murder is going by "eye for an eye" law, and that is not the Christian way. If someone killed my whole family, I would rather have them been in prison for the rest of their live, with no tv, just the staples of life like bread and water, and die of natural causes, so that they can think over what they have done for years to come, and hopefully one day come to Jesus and ask Him and me for forgiveness. Also, on the part of this topic, I have been seeing a lot on the news that people who actually knew him are stating that he didn't commit the murders, that he was framed, and that the evidence against him wasn't too good, well at least that is what they are saying on the radio, and his last words were that if to keep his innocence he would have to die, then he would die for that, and that's why they were a little surprised that he didn't put up any kind of a fight when they were strapping him in, and why he tried his hardest to hold his head high throughout his punishment. I for one, don't know if he did, or did not commit murder, and I don't agree with the death penalty, the only way we would ever have it and I would be ok with, is if they were 100% positive the person did it, and the only way really to do that, is a confession, or catch them in the act. We would be better off with prisons were the prisoners just get staples like I said, bread, water, a toilet, an occasional shower maybe and a regular bed, no tv, or anything else, if someone has commited a crime, they and go to jail, I don't want my money going to pay for them to be able to watch the same tv I can, and have most the same rights, except for the fact that they can't leave.

skynes
12-14-2005, 01:16 AM
I love how Christians will preach compassion, and then say things like "Fry him." Disgusting.


I see a difference between Forgiveness and being let off.
You can be forgiven, but still must face the consequences of your actions.

E.g.

A girl goes out and gets pregnant.
She asks God for forgiveness.

She is now forgiven, but God won't get her out of the consequences of her actions.
He will provide the strength, finances and support for her to get through it.
But He won't pull her out of it and magically make her Not-Pregnant.

-----------------------

Alex, I commend you on forgiving the road rage guy.
But if the policeman had thought otherwise, and put him into court, you may have forgiven him, everyone else there may have forgiven him, but he still has to face the punishment due.


---------------------

I think overall there needs to be a balance between Conviction and Compassion.

Too much compassion = Compromise, you ignore the law to help another.

Too much conviction = Legalism, you're heartless and cruel.

Convction/Compassion (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=12701444&blogID=66470501&Mytoken=67b6d688-8b25-4484-8dbd-772d37b924c4)

Isildur9473
12-14-2005, 08:39 AM
Religion or not, the laws of the land still exist. They are right here in front of us, and they won't change. He killed 4 people, so he got what he had coming.

Innocence? Everyone has people who think they're innocent. The trick is providing evidence that he is.

Mr. Xcitement
12-14-2005, 09:23 AM
Part of that is wrong though, the laws of the land can change. Just as a man took God out of the pledge, and now wants it off our money. There's another group trying to make so people have to call them "Holiday Trees" and not Christmas Trees. Also, I feel that if someone is put in jail for so many years, and they change and ask for forgiveness, and truely have changed, then they deserve another chance. Maybe they commited a crime, maybe they didn't, how are we to know? If they didn't commit it, then we killed an innocent man, and you cannot take that back, but if you put an innocent man in jail for life, at least then you can try and do something to make it right.

Isildur9473
12-14-2005, 10:29 AM
Part of that is wrong though, the laws of the land can change. Just as a man took God out of the pledge, and now wants it off our money. There's another group trying to make so people have to call them "Holiday Trees" and not Christmas Trees.

I commend those people. This isn't a Christian country, so why put Christian referenecs on our legal documents?

Also, I feel that if someone is put in jail for so many years, and they change and ask for forgiveness, and truely have changed, then they deserve another chance. Maybe they commited a crime, maybe they didn't, how are we to know? If they didn't commit it, then we killed an innocent man, and you cannot take that back, but if you put an innocent man in jail for life, at least then you can try and do something to make it right.

Deep down, most people won't change. Sure, some will, but that doesn't change what they've done. Most of the time when they fry people, they're 100 percent on it.

md4j
12-14-2005, 12:45 PM
I commend those people. This isn't a Christian country, so why put Christian referenecs on our legal documents?.But this country was BASED on christian principles. And overwhelmingly the people of this country claim to be Christian. By the way, the pledge hasn't been changed. It's still in court.


Deep down, most people won't change. Sure, some will, but that doesn't change what they've done. Most of the time when they fry people, they're 100 percent on it.I agree, most people won't change and even if they do it doesn't change their previous actions.

disciple
12-14-2005, 03:37 PM
I commend those people. This isn't a Christian country, so why put Christian referenecs on our legal documents?
But you gotta admit, though, "Holiday Trees"? Somehow I think the Holiday Inn is involved... ;)

"Merry Winter-Holiday, and a happy New Year." Wow, life would sure be generic. Now THAT sounds like something made up by a washed-up Fantasy writer.

Isildur9473
12-14-2005, 05:00 PM
But this country was BASED on christian principles. And overwhelmingly the people of this country claim to be Christian. By the way, the pledge hasn't been changed. It's still in court.

Based on some Christian principles that many other countries that aren't Christian abide by as well. The founding fathers, not all of them were Christians. Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, who are considered to be amongst the 2 most influential were athiests.

shakes
12-14-2005, 06:18 PM
I believe that I killed Christ. I say we all did it. HOw can we not say we did not kill him, Yes it was over 2000 thousand years ago, but it was for us. He died for our sins. If CHrist did not die for our sins, then we would not have killed him. We cannot say it was the Romans or the Pharasiees, it was everyone. For STanley a lot of people might say he deserved his sentence of death for the lives he took. YOu are right saying how this is not a Christian worls, but the thing is we as Christians should not conform to it. We are different because we follow the laws set by the government, but also we follw Gods law. I think Stanley could have stayed in jail, he was preventing others from becoming gang members, yes he did something bad but we all SIN! To God all sins are the same. Don't belive me? Open your bibles!

alorian
12-14-2005, 06:53 PM
We didn't kill Christ. God decided to make that sacrifice for us. PM me later, and I'll explain further, or I'll do it here if you ask, I'm just EXTREMELY busy right now, sorry :\

Mr. Xcitement
12-14-2005, 08:30 PM
From what I have heard on the radio, they never did have evidence saying they were 100% positive that he did it, and besides that, it is hard to get 100% evidence, unless the person says they did it, have the weapon, finger prints on the weapon, and ammo, and footage of them doing it, then that is 100%. As for laws, Gods laws come before the government, also a person can change at the very core of their being, it is very possible, if it is not, then you wouldn't be hearing from me at all, because I wouldn't be on this forum.

Isildur9473
12-14-2005, 09:06 PM
From what I have heard on the radio, they never did have evidence saying they were 100% positive that he did it, and besides that, it is hard to get 100% evidence, unless the person says they did it, have the weapon, finger prints on the weapon, and ammo, and footage of them doing it, then that is 100%. As for laws, Gods laws come before the government, also a person can change at the very core of their being, it is very possible, if it is not, then you wouldn't be hearing from me at all, because I wouldn't be on this forum.

Secular Government doesn't need God's law does it? It should be run by elected officials, and follow the laws it has set for itself. What's the point of doing otherwise?

I believe that I killed Christ. I say we all did it. HOw can we not say we did not kill him, Yes it was over 2000 thousand years ago, but it was for us. He died for our sins. If CHrist did not die for our sins, then we would not have killed him. We cannot say it was the Romans or the Pharasiees, it was everyone. For STanley a lot of people might say he deserved his sentence of death for the lives he took. YOu are right saying how this is not a Christian worls, but the thing is we as Christians should not conform to it. We are different because we follow the laws set by the government, but also we follw Gods law. I think Stanley could have stayed in jail, he was preventing others from becoming gang members, yes he did something bad but we all SIN! To God all sins are the same. Don't belive me? Open your bibles!

You're right, lets put rationality elsewhere and pretend that we know everything because of what our minds tell us. Jesus was physically killed by Crucifixion, the Bible says this. That's what murder is. Murdering someone spirtually is different from murdering the physically. Dealing with reality, Romans killed Jesus.

Spiritually, we may or may not have. Who knows?

Mr. Xcitement
12-14-2005, 11:42 PM
Secular Government doesn't need God's law does it? It should be run by elected officials, and follow the laws it has set for itself. What's the point of doing otherwise?

Actually, if Secular government doesn't have God's laws, then there is no Christian president, because as the Bible states, we are to put God's laws first, so if a president is Christian, he must put God's laws before his country, so the elected officials do bring religion into our government and the only way to get rid of it is persecution, which has been starting up for the past few years.

md4j
12-15-2005, 05:14 AM
Based on some Christian principles that many other countries that aren't Christian abide by as well. The founding fathers, not all of them were Christians. Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, who are considered to be amongst the 2 most influential were athiests.two out of over 50 and you imply that this country wasn't based on Christian principles. Read the writings of the founding fathers, most of them were deep into Christianity and their specific religion. They believed, even according to our own constitution, that we are given our rights by our creator. Seems most did believe in God.

Isildur9473
12-15-2005, 08:35 AM
two out of over 50 and you imply that this country wasn't based on Christian principles. Read the writings of the founding fathers, most of them were deep into Christianity and their specific religion. They believed, even according to our own constitution, that we are given our rights by our creator. Seems most did believe in God.

Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were two of the most influential, next to John Adams who did believe as far as I know. Franklin and Jefferson are the only two Americans to ever be considered Renaissance men.

Actually, if Secular government doesn't have God's laws, then there is no Christian president, because as the Bible states, we are to put God's laws first, so if a president is Christian, he must put God's laws before his country, so the elected officials do bring religion into our government and the only way to get rid of it is persecution, which has been starting up for the past few years.

Since this is a Federal Government and not a Theocracy, the President needs to put Federal law over God's law. To do otherwise, would be running a country based off of personal values.

Mr. Xcitement
12-15-2005, 08:52 AM
Since this is a Federal Government and not a Theocracy, the President needs to put Federal law over God's law. To do otherwise, would be running a country based off of personal values.

Thus a Christian should never be President then, because their faith tells them to put God before anything else, and to put God's laws first, that is the Bible, and that is how Christians are supposed to live.

Isildur9473
12-15-2005, 08:53 AM
Thus a Christian should never be President then, because their faith tells them to put God before anything else, and to put God's laws first, that is the Bible, and that is how Christians are supposed to live.

That's a good point. If the president is going to run a Federal Government off the Bible no matter what the circumstance, they shouldn't be president. Seperation of Church and State laws exist for a reason.

animeraven34
12-15-2005, 10:33 AM
If the president is going to run a Federal Government off the Bible no matter what the circumstance, they shouldn't be president. Seperation of Church and State laws exist for a reason.
Actually they exist for more than one reason. It's better for both Religion and Government if they remain seperate. And if you don't believe that, then you should look into European history.

Personally, I don't care for any form of government. Don't fool yourselves into thinking democracy is the best thing since sliced bread. The ability for us to decide who leads this country is a just as much, if not more so, a curse than a blessing.

"The only thing that can be said in democracy's favor is that it is at least eight times as good as any system that came before it. The flaw is that the elected leaders reflect the views of their consituents; a depressingly low number at best."
- Robert A. Heinlein

This country's government is based on a majority rules system, problem is a very small chunk of the population actually votes. A political group that represents less than one percent of the population is one of the most influential in the country. Yeah, this is a wonderful form of government. :P Personally I feel people get offeneded or angered far too easily. Nothing in this world is perfect, accpet it and move on.

As far as this whole Stanley Williams thing, why should I care that he was executed? If he killed those four people then he got what was coming to him; if he didn't kill those people, then those who convicted him have to live with it on their conscience.

Unregistered
12-15-2005, 10:55 AM
Actually they exist for more than one reason. It's better for both Religion and Government if they remain seperate. And if you don't believe that, then you should look into European history.

I know, that's the point I'm trying to make. :)

Personally, I don't care for any form of government. Don't fool yourselves into thinking democracy is the best thing since sliced bread. The ability for us to decide who leads this country is a just as much, if not more so, a curse than a blessing.

Democracy is better than other forms we've had in the past. It certainly has its share of problems.

"The only thing that can be said in democracy's favor is that it is at least eight times as good as any system that came before it. The flaw is that the elected leaders reflect the views of their consituents; a depressingly low number at best."
- Robert A. Heinlein

Qouted for truth.

As far as this whole Stanley Williams thing, why should I care that he was executed? If he killed those four people then he got what was coming to him; if he didn't kill those people, then those who convicted him have to live with it on their conscience.

Exactly.

Isildur9473
12-15-2005, 10:56 AM
Actually they exist for more than one reason. It's better for both Religion and Government if they remain seperate. And if you don't believe that, then you should look into European history.

I know, that's the point I'm trying to make. :)

Personally, I don't care for any form of government. Don't fool yourselves into thinking democracy is the best thing since sliced bread. The ability for us to decide who leads this country is a just as much, if not more so, a curse than a blessing.

Democracy is better than other forms we've had in the past. It certainly has its share of problems.

"The only thing that can be said in democracy's favor is that it is at least eight times as good as any system that came before it. The flaw is that the elected leaders reflect the views of their consituents; a depressingly low number at best."
- Robert A. Heinlein

Qouted for truth.

As far as this whole Stanley Williams thing, why should I care that he was executed? If he killed those four people then he got what was coming to him; if he didn't kill those people, then those who convicted him have to live with it on their conscience.

Exactly.

Mr. Xcitement
12-15-2005, 12:54 PM
That's a good point. If the president is going to run a Federal Government off the Bible no matter what the circumstance, they shouldn't be president. Seperation of Church and State laws exist for a reason.
So basically with your stand point, a Christian cannot be a president because by their faith, they cannot lead the country, and thus we are no longer a democracy since the country would no longer be free, it would mean that only people that do not have religion can lead the country.

NightCrawler
12-15-2005, 12:59 PM
As far as this whole Stanley Williams thing, why should I care that he was executed? If he killed those four people then he got what was coming to him; if he didn't kill those people, then those who convicted him have to live with it on their conscience.

Wow, that was a little calloused. Let me rephrase what you said a little, see if this makes sense still.

"I don't care if people get screwed over, that is their problem."

Isildur9473
12-15-2005, 01:55 PM
So basically with your stand point, a Christian cannot be a president because by their faith, they cannot lead the country, and thus we are no longer a democracy since the country would no longer be free, it would mean that only people that do not have religion can lead the country.

Yeah. I guess if it comes down to that yes. The Constitution is not the Bible.

disciple
12-15-2005, 02:14 PM
Wow, that was a little calloused. Let me rephrase what you said a little, see if this makes sense still.

"I don't care if people get screwed over, that is their problem."
I'm sure Jon will excuse me for stepping in to speak for him.

That wasn't what he meant. He meant that Stanley killed four people, thus, he should receive the full consequence of his actions. What he's saying is that this makes no difference to him, as there are many people on death row who have done the same and are going to receive the consequence for their actions.

I agree 100% with Scott on Compassion/Conviction.

animeraven34
12-15-2005, 03:34 PM
Wow, that was a little calloused. Let me rephrase what you said a little, see if this makes sense still.

"I don't care if people get screwed over, that is their problem."
Apparently you only see what you want to see. I don't see a guy who MIGHT have been wrongfully convicted, I see the families of four innocent people. You'll have to forgive me for not caring if the man who founded one of the worst street gangs in history gets executed. But you're right. I don't care if people I am never going to meet get screwed over. Why? Because that's life. The only reason most of you even care about this is because of the media coverage. Yes, I am calloused. Why should I care about a world that doesn't care about me? Where were all the bleeding hearts when I was verbally and mentally abused growing up? Where were all the activists when my friends killed themselves? Where was all the public outrage when the woman I'm going to marry was molested by her brother as a child? Don't you talk to me about people getting screwed over.

Actually, what I meant was that if he killed those four people then justice was served; if he didn't kill those four people, not only will those who convicted him have that on their conscience, but at the end of it all God will judge them for it.

I'm going to end this post with a quote from a story I'm writing. Maybe then you'll have a better idea of how I look at this.

"I find it amazing that you people can call one death or murder more horrible than another. Any death or murder is a horrible thing; the only difference is the amount of blood and gore and how much time it takes. Yet a man who shoots another man once could do as little as a couple of months in jail, but if he had torn that man to shreds hed get life in prison or executed. But then you turn around and criticize the decision to execute him. I find it amazing that this world has managed to maintain some semblance of order for this long."

Reeper
12-15-2005, 07:29 PM
I'm just gonna offer my unsolicited opinion here as well.

Not about what Jon posted however. Though I will say I feel your pain bud and am very open to help you get over it if you so wish. I just want to post my opinion about the links you gave Alex. Now I know that I don't know Rob all that well, and I will admit that due to finals this week I didn't have time to listen to the message thing on there, but I do just want to say that everything that I have heard from him I, personally have been disappointed in. So, for anyone out there I would just say be careful.

This isn't a anti-Rob Bell post it is simply a be careful post. Rob has plenty of good stuff in the things I have seen and heard, he just seems to be scared to take it the little bit further that he really needs to. He is like, in my estimation from what I have heard the NIV version of the bible. There is still some great stuff in there and yeah he makes some things very understandable, but there are also some errors and if you really want to study the word in depth I say use a different version.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Oh, and to add my opinion on the Tookie Williams thing... I think justice was served. Whether he was reformed or not, he made a decision and had to live with the consequences of his decision. He chose to kill those people, with the law already set down stating that if he took someone's life he would forfeit his own, and he killed them anyway. Whether he sought forgiveness or not is between him and God. Either way he still had to live with the consequences of his actions. As Skynes said you can be forgiven yet still live with the consequences of your actions.

Really in fact it is the people who have been reformed and that have asked God for forgiveness that I feel more comfortable about having killed if their crime so warrants. I at least know that they will be going to a better place. Even so, they still had to live with the consequences. Being forgiven does not absolve you of the consequences. Read the old testament if you really want to see that.

Peace

animeraven34
12-15-2005, 07:35 PM
1) You appear to have choosen bitterness over forgiveness. Not only is it sinful, but it makes for a terrible way to live life.

2) You are not the only one on here with baggage; you are not the only one with sexual assault stories, stories of abuse, and stories of suicide. I think many of us have closets full of skeletons.

3) Selfishness is the attitude that was behind everything terrible that you listed. Why would you then embrace this attitude yourself?
Yes, I did choose bitterness over forgiveness, for years. But when you finally come around, it takes a while to get over the old habits. But there is also a difference between bitterness and cynicism.

I know I'm not the only one with baggage. I only listed a small part of my baggage anyway. I was not trying to be selfish. If I am selfish, I don't think poorly made videos are the answer. Maybe if you knew my past you'd know why I am the way I am.

Word of advice, in the future you might want to do stuff like this through the PM service. :P The Bible advises us to talk with someone privately before taking an issue public.

Mr. Xcitement
12-16-2005, 01:35 AM
Yeah. I guess if it comes down to that yes. The Constitution is not the Bible.
So what kind of government do you suppose we have? Since without allowing a Christian to be in a government it wouldn't be a free country and we wouldn't get representation, and we'd probably be forced to pray and celebrate in private.

Mr. Xcitement
12-16-2005, 01:41 AM
Apparently you only see what you want to see. I don't see a guy who MIGHT have been wrongfully convicted, I see the families of four innocent people. You'll have to forgive me for not caring if the man who founded one of the worst street gangs in history gets executed. But you're right. I don't care if people I am never going to meet get screwed over. Why? Because that's life. The only reason most of you even care about this is because of the media coverage. Yes, I am calloused. Why should I care about a world that doesn't care about me? Where were all the bleeding hearts when I was verbally and mentally abused growing up? Where were all the activists when my friends killed themselves? Where was all the public outrage when the woman I'm going to marry was molested by her brother as a child? Don't you talk to me about people getting screwed over.
I do my best to care about everyone, I had a very very hard childhood growing up (I'm not going to get into details here, if you really want to know PM me). I feel that as a Christian we are supposed to help the helpless, and give hope to the hopeless, because that's what Jesus would do. I understand you went through a lot, and it still hurts deep down, the only advice I can really give is to pray, it's all that I ever had to help me, and in the end, it got me out. I do care about the families and this man, but I must say it is because of the media, because without the media, I wouldn't have heard anything about it. Well I'll give prayers to give you strength, I hope all is well, and although it was only one small part, that book sounds awesome, maybe I'll sit down someday and write the book I've always wanted to...

md4j
12-16-2005, 06:54 AM
Democracy is better than other forms we've had in the past. It certainly has its share of problems.
We're not a democracy, we're a republic. There's a difference. Democracy is worse than a republic, in my opinion.

Isildur9473
12-16-2005, 08:21 AM
So what kind of government do you suppose we have? Since without allowing a Christian to be in a government it wouldn't be a free country and we wouldn't get representation, and we'd probably be forced to pray and celebrate in private.

Christians have just as much of a right to office as everyone else. They just have to follow the rules like everyone else. We have a democratic republic.

Mr. Xcitement
12-16-2005, 08:39 AM
Christians have just as much of a right to office as everyone else. They just have to follow the rules like everyone else. We have a democratic republic.
Now you're contradicting yourself. Because as a Christian, you have to put God's laws before everything else, and so therefore, with what you have previously said, a Christian cannot be in a governmental position.

Isildur9473
12-16-2005, 10:50 AM
Now you're contradicting yourself. Because as a Christian, you have to put God's laws before everything else, and so therefore, with what you have previously said, a Christian cannot be in a governmental position.

It's not justfiable for anyone to use personal beliefs. That means we can't have leaders at all. If we had a Arab president, he would put the Quran first. If we had a Jewish president they would put the Torah first.

If you were living strictly off the bible, he would make choices completely guided by it. That might not be the best thing for the body of people living in the United States. It's up to the President to make choices for the good of everyone.

skynes
12-16-2005, 10:51 AM
That might not be the best thing for the body of people living in the United States.

God's laws not the best for ppl.... Suuuure, God set them up just for a kick.

Isildur9473
12-16-2005, 10:54 AM
God's laws not the best for ppl.... Suuuure, God set them up just for a kick.

But this is a federal republic. Not a theological republic. God can't have any influence over this country for its own good. All Christianity does is screw up Governments.

animeraven34
12-16-2005, 11:35 AM
All Christianity does is screw up Governments.
And vice-versa.

Isildur9473
12-16-2005, 04:19 PM
And vice-versa.

Agreed. Too bad the two can't stay completely clear of one another.

Spiffles
12-16-2005, 04:28 PM
Humans screw up governments, put "religion" in, or leave it out.. governemnts still get screwed up.. reason being is they are not following what God has set out as how we should live, and God does know best and how he says things should be run for any circumstance is best.. He created us, and the creator always knows whats best.

Isildur9473
12-16-2005, 04:32 PM
Humans screw up governments, put "religion" in, or leave it out.. governemnts still get screwed up.. reason being is they are not following what God has set out as how we should live, and God does know best and how he says things should be run for any circumstance is best.. He created us, and the creator always knows whats best.

That's true, but you can't run a secular government with a Christian bias.

Mr. Xcitement
12-16-2005, 09:48 PM
It's not justfiable for anyone to use personal beliefs. That means we can't have leaders at all. If we had a Arab president, he would put the Quran first. If we had a Jewish president they would put the Torah first.

If you were living strictly off the bible, he would make choices completely guided by it. That might not be the best thing for the body of people living in the United States. It's up to the President to make choices for the good of everyone.

First, not every single Arab is a Muslim, so that part is wrong, you would need to say a Muslim as President, not an Arab.

Also, on the second part, as a Christian, you should really feel that the Bible IS the best thing for everyone, it is our guide, our book, the Word of God, there is nothing bad in it. No, not everyone in USA is christian, but it would be awesome if we all were.

Isildur9473
12-16-2005, 09:51 PM
First, not every single Arab is a Muslim, so that part is wrong, you would need to say a Muslim as President, not an Arab.

Also, on the second part, as a Christian, you should really feel that the Bible IS the best thing for everyone, it is our guide, our book, the Word of God, there is nothing bad in it. No, not everyone in USA is christian, but it would be awesome if we all were.

It would be awesome if there was no crime. It would be awesome if I suddenly had $18 Million. That's not going to happen. :(

Jesus said to respect the laws of whatever nation you live in. That means if you're the President, or some other key official in the Government, you lead according to the Constitution, not the Bible.

Mr. Xcitement
12-17-2005, 09:56 AM
It would be awesome if there was no crime. It would be awesome if I suddenly had $18 Million. That's not going to happen. :(

Jesus said to respect the laws of whatever nation you live in. That means if you're the President, or some other key official in the Government, you lead according to the Constitution, not the Bible.

That is true, but that's not all Jesus said. He also said that you need to above all, follow the laws of God, no matter what the government says.

Isildur9473
12-17-2005, 10:30 AM
That is true, but that's not all Jesus said. He also said that you need to above all, follow the laws of God, no matter what the government says.

We're not going to get anywhere by this. So I'm going to summarize my points, and move on.

- It's called common sense. If you're going to be in a federal position, you have to do it the way the constitution says. I'm going to be a Federal Agent. I'm going by the FBI handbook, and whatever other documentation they give me, as well as God's advice in situations where it won't affect my mandate.

- Theocracies are stupid, and they shouldn't exist.

Mr. Xcitement
12-17-2005, 10:00 PM
We're not going to get anywhere by this. So I'm going to summarize my points, and move on.

- It's called common sense. If you're going to be in a federal position, you have to do it the way the constitution says. I'm going to be a Federal Agent. I'm going by the FBI handbook, and whatever other documentation they give me, as well as God's advice in situations where it won't affect my mandate.

- Theocracies are stupid, and they shouldn't exist.

I'm not saying I want a Theocracy, what I am saying is that as a Christian you must put God's laws first, and to not do so is a sin, and if you refuse to, then you are constantly going against God's will, and therefore are not being a Christian. I am saying that what you are stating by going into government and going completely by the government laws while putting the Bible behind you, is not being christian, and becoming one of the thousands of people who are just christian by name and nothing else, people who do not follow the Bible and take to heart what it says, a Christian can never put their faith away, no matter what, to do so would be to give into Satan and let something other than God rule our lives.

Isildur9473
12-18-2005, 09:15 AM
I'm not saying I want a Theocracy, what I am saying is that as a Christian you must put God's laws first, and to not do so is a sin, and if you refuse to, then you are constantly going against God's will, and therefore are not being a Christian. I am saying that what you are stating by going into government and going completely by the government laws while putting the Bible behind you, is not being christian, and becoming one of the thousands of people who are just christian by name and nothing else, people who do not follow the Bible and take to heart what it says, a Christian can never put their faith away, no matter what, to do so would be to give into Satan and let something other than God rule our lives.

Ok, so by that viewpoint, you're saying that Christians can never hold positions in the Government. I'm sorry you feel that way.

skynes
12-18-2005, 09:22 AM
Actually Greg, that's what you're saying. By saying that God and the Bible have no place in Government you're saying that Christians cannot hold places there, because they need to leave their Faith at the door.

Isildur9473
12-18-2005, 09:27 AM
Actually Greg, that's what you're saying. By saying that God and the Bible have no place in Government you're saying that Christians cannot hold places there, because they need to leave their Faith at the door.

I'm not the one forcing Christians into that position. Bush is a Christian, and he doesn't rule the country with the Bible (I hope).

And yes, they do need to leave their faith at the door. Same with any other president of any religion. Surely you can see where I'm coming from on this?

unshakeable15
12-18-2005, 03:12 PM
actually, i'd much rather a Muslim President than an atheist.

why?

because any religion, well, any religion that's not so relativistic as to mean nothing, where was i? ok, religion promotes morals. Muslims, Christians, Mormons, Jews, all have a system of rules within their religious creeds that dictate what is right and what is wrong (altho Christians have more freedom than the others in that it's not what we do that makes us Children of God). if you pledge yourself as a follower of a religion, that religion's creeds are set within you. that is, you pledge to also follow them.

an atheist would have no religious basis for his morals. it would all be based upon the ruls of government. their morals are looser because the rules of men change as time goes on. and the bits that end up outside the law (like, whether or not to tip your waitress) are all up to you. people are like tree saplings, we end up moving whichever way the wind blows us unless we have something to keep us upright and straight.

skynes
12-19-2005, 12:43 AM
I'm not the one forcing Christians into that position. Bush is a Christian, and he doesn't rule the country with the Bible (I hope).

And yes, they do need to leave their faith at the door. Same with any other president of any religion. Surely you can see where I'm coming from on this?

No I don't.

God made it clear - You serve Him above everything else.
If government says one thing and God says another: You follow God, end of story. This is not up for debate and is not optional, God is clear on this.

Mr. Xcitement
12-19-2005, 04:03 AM
No I don't.

God made it clear - You serve Him above everything else.
If government says one thing and God says another: You follow God, end of story. This is not up for debate and is not optional, God is clear on this.

That is what I have been saying, but you seemed to have put it in better to wording. If you're someone who believes it is ok to leave your faith at the door, then you are not a true Christian, Christianity isn't just a religion, neither is any religion really, they are a way of life. How would you feel if the end of the world was coming and God decided to, leave you at the door? Wouldn't be very nice, now would it?

Mr. Xcitement
12-19-2005, 04:04 AM
I'm not the one forcing Christians into that position. Bush is a Christian, and he doesn't rule the country with the Bible (I hope).

And yes, they do need to leave their faith at the door. Same with any other president of any religion. Surely you can see where I'm coming from on this?

Actually I have heard Bush on quite a few speeches, maybe not recent ones, but he has asked people to pray, he has thanked God on tv, and openly shown his faith in God to the citizens of the USA, and I'm glad, because that shows that he isn't afraid, and that he knows who he is and what he believes.

Isildur9473
12-19-2005, 08:19 AM
Alright, you guys are correct. I was completely wrong for thinking that we should abide by the constitution. What's the point of it anyways? Lets replace it with the bible! Omg what a great idea! We can then have a theocracy, and those pwn hardcore. After that, we can slowly but surely start converting people and banning other religions! Maybe we can even go on a crusade to the holy lands and kill everyone but the Jews and Christians and set up a holy empire there!

After that, we can continue to not listen to the constitution, and ban homosexuality/gay marraige! Then, we can force the bible into schools, and everyone will be Christian!

I am so stupid for thinking that the constitution has any merit! What is wrong with me!?

skynes
12-19-2005, 09:02 AM
Greg, stop being childish. It doesn't do you any favours.

You're completely ignoring what we're saying.

God's Word > Constitution.

If the two collide, you take God's Word.
If a Christian works in government, they still need to abide by God's Word.

Not once did any of us say throw away the constitution.
Not once did any of us say set up a Theocracy
Not once did any of us to slaughter every non-jew, non-Christian.

We are saying that God's Word is true and to throw it out of the Government is to reject God as ruler and reject His Truth.

I know nothing of your constitution, nor do I care.


When a Government is run by Christians abiding by God's word, then you have the most commited, lawful and compassionate Government there can be.

Forcing Christianity onto people, banning this and that, ethnic cleansing, crusades. They are NOT Christian.

Isildur9473
12-19-2005, 10:50 AM
You're completely ignoring what we're saying.

God's Word > Constitution.

I understand what you're saying. Ignore the founding principles of this country, and use ours.

If the two collide, you take God's Word. If a Christian works in government, they still need to abide by God's Word.

Of course, but that might not represent the people. The duty of a representitive of the people, is to act in their wishes. If we say banned abortion against popular consent, that would be acting in favor of one's own belief instead of the constitution. This shoulsn't happen.

Not once did any of us say throw away the constitution.
Not once did any of us say set up a Theocracy

That's what happens when you start having too many Christians ruling through the bible in a country.

Not once did any of us to slaughter every non-jew, non-Christian.

Ok, so maybe that was a bit low.

We are saying that God's Word is true and to throw it out of the Government is to reject God as ruler and reject His Truth.

Umm, what? This isn't a Christian country, so why is God's word ruling non-Christian people that don't want it? The constitution says that this is a government "By the people, and for the people". It's not "For a select group of people, and everyone else is just out of luck"

I know nothing of your constitution, nor do I care.

Cool. Non-Christians know nothing about the Bible, nor do they care.

[quote]When a Government is run by Christians abiding by God's word, then you have the most commited, lawful and compassionate Government there can be.

That's nice. But it might not represent the wishes of the people. That's what ultimatly matters.

Forcing Christianity onto people, banning this and that, ethnic cleansing, crusades. They are NOT Christian.

Interesting, that seems to happen whenever Christians have control over a country.

Mr. Xcitement
12-19-2005, 11:54 AM
I understand what you're saying. Ignore the founding principles of this country, and use ours.

That is not what we are saying, when you become Christian, and if you read the Bible, you will understand, that to put the Bible down and follow the country instead of God, is to go against God, we are not saying we want a theocracy, and I'm not the one saying Christians can't be in government. It is you who are saying that if people don't leave their faith at the door, then they can't be in government, and when a christian leaves their faith at the door, they leave God at the door, and it is against the Christian way to do that, that is what we're saying, not to run the country by the Bible. Also, with abortion, not just Christians are against it, there are people from all walks of life against it.

john316
12-19-2005, 01:22 PM
Well boys and girls it looks like this has gone way off topic and since I believe that all has been said that can be said concerning Mr. Williams I am going to close this thread.

As always if you feel you have good cause for this thread to be reopened let me or one of the mods know.

Thanks

John