Reeper
12-15-2005, 07:47 PM
K. so this topic might go over a lot of people's heads and die in a matter of minutes cause of that, but here it goes.

Straight from reading a book on Thomism. Metaphysics. K. so some background first. So Thomas Aquinas and many other christians have been vastly effected by the works of the Greek and Roman philosophers like Aristotle and Plato. Mostly Aristotle though. And one of Aristotle's main bodies of emphasis in his philosophy was in metaphysics.

Basically metaphysics is those things which cannot be understood. It was both Aristotles claim and Aquinas' that there are limits to human logic. That is that not all things can be understood through human logic, i.e. there are things outside of this world which we cannot understand. Aristotle obviously didn't take this belief to God cause he believed in many but Aquinas did.

So what is everyone's opinion on the subject. Can God be understood solely in the world? Are there things outside of human understanding? If that is the case and you believe as many other church officials did back in Aquinas' day that Aristotle stated that there really were no things outside of human understanding, does that mean that our faith is built on false pretenses since Aristotle's philosophy effected the church so much? And so on and so forth.

But I don't want to limit this discussion to just that either. Calling all the philosophers. It is time to philosophise. Give us your philosophy and we'll debate it.
I don't care if it is on human existence, the nature of God, etc. Whatever you want to discuss philosophically let's do it.

We wanted more post that could be proven. Here's one. Philosophy is really all opinion. Let's have fun.

Peace

amodman
12-15-2005, 08:14 PM
Ummm, wow, this is certainly a general thread, heh. I just finished a philosophy and ethics class and loved it, so I actual know about all these guys now ;). I can't even think what to talk about...as far as understanding God, see my massive post in Temporal Theory. My simple answer is no, heh.

TheFireBreathes
12-15-2005, 08:20 PM
I think God only placed the important things we need to understant about Him. Like He didnt give us the answer to creation, or if aliens really exist, or time travel. Because that is not something we absolutely need to know to survive or to go to heaven. Of course everyone has there own theories on those subjects, but nothing is compared to what He knows. I would have more to say but I got lame school tomorrow

amodman
12-15-2005, 08:42 PM
I think God only placed the important things we need to understant about Him. Like He didnt give us the answer to creation, or if aliens really exist, or time travel. Because that is not something we absolutely need to know to survive or to go to heaven. Of course everyone has there own theories on those subjects, but nothing is compared to what He knows. I would have more to say but I got lame school tomorrow

I don't mean to be offensive, but that seems a little incoherent. You tried to say a lot of things all in one. If I can break it down -

1. You said we only know as much about God as we need to.

2. Scientific mysteries such as time travel, creation, & aliens are unknowable.

3. The only spiritual/scientific mysteries available for us to discover are those immediately necessary to survive and go to Heaven.

Personally, I only agree on 1. 2 depends on the issue: time travel - not possible [see temporal theory], creation - half not possible to know [we've alreadt found out many things through scientific study, though most likely there's no more we can deduce], aliens - half not possible to know [any and every encounter w/aliens documented and "proven" on Earth is Demonic encounter - no exceptions].

Your 3rd point I definitely don't agree with at all (if it was a point, or just an un-intended side statement). God provided much for us in nature for our own enjoyment. We were given dominion/stewardship over nature and its mysteries are there for us to study and utilize. This can be demonstrated by the scientific advances of our ancient predecessors that we haven't even matched today. As far as the spiritual realm is concerned, I think the Bible makes it plain enough there is much growth and maturity to be obtained in that area through prayer & meditation on God's Word. You can't really say God has to be present for that to occur so it doesn't count, cause God has to be present for anything to occur ;). W/God anything is possible, w/o God nothing is, lol.

NightCrawler
12-15-2005, 09:16 PM
Consider these verses:

James 1
5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."

Amos 3
7 "Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets."

Job 38 (God speaks)
36 "Who endowed the heart with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind?"

Psalms 111
10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise."

Proverbs 2
1 "My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,
3 and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom,
and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding."

Ephesians 1
17"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better."

James 4
2b"...You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures."

Mark 11
24"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

----------------------------------------------------------------------


I believe that since God gives wisdom and knowledge as He sees fit, and He gives what we ask for... that what I just told my friend this evening is true:

Ask the right questions to the right person at the right time, and you will find the right answer. God will provide what you ask for.

NightCrawler
12-15-2005, 09:45 PM
To summerize:

God gives understanding. Human knowledge is made foolish compared to God's wisdom and understanding. Ask him for understanding, and you will know. So, nothing is outside of our grasp (with God). But humans without God will always fail.

skynes
12-16-2005, 01:25 AM
Since God is a non-physical, spiritual being, of infinite power wisdom and glory.

I'd say, No. We cannot fully understand Him this side of eternity. Personally I don't think even a billion years with Him in our glorified bodies will allow us to fully understand Him.

That shouldn't be a bad thing though, it means that every new thing we learn will fascinate us.

I think God has made available WAAAAY more info than is necessary to Salvation. Salvation is ridiculously simple, virtually no effort or knowledge is required to be saved, that was done deliberately so that even a child could understand it.

I don't think scientific mysteries are unknowable. Most of what we have today was once unknowable. How the earth was round, why we fall, how we get sick. We know this now cause some nutcase sat down and thought it through despite being told it's unknowable.

TheFireBreathes
12-16-2005, 09:47 AM
I don't think scientific mysteries are unknowable. Most of what we have today was once unknowable. How the earth was round, why we fall, how we get sick. We know this now cause some nutcase sat down and thought it through despite being told it's unknowable.

Though I do agree with you on some of those. But to me It seems that scientists cannot find an end to the complexition of our human bodies. As soon as they find the smallest particle to the atom, they find an even smaller particle. And I know thet we humans have had great achievements like gravity and the shape of the earth, but there is still like so much out there that we are unaware of. Even if we do have the best technolegy. Or like the question about the universe. Does it go on forever or is there an and to it, if there is an end whats on the other side? Maybe the universe is just infinite and expanding more and more every day. There are things that God has made unknowable to us like the end times (though this could be debated), if He created evolution...who knows?

skynes
12-16-2005, 09:54 AM
Point is though, that all the stuff that is supposedly unknowable today, may be discovered in 10 years.

Stuff considered impossible, such as Computers being in every household. An impossibility 30 years ago, is now common today.

TheFireBreathes
12-16-2005, 09:57 AM
Point is though, that all the stuff that is supposedly unknowable today, may be discovered in 10 years.

Stuff considered impossible, such as Computers being in every household. An impossibility 30 years ago, is now common today.

That is true also. Though I still dont believe we can answer All of these mysteries (just my opinion). We'll have to see whos right in 10 years ;)

skilltroks
12-16-2005, 11:56 AM
We will never know and/or fully understand God completely. Yes, we will be discovering things [about Him and our world that He made] 10 years from now; however, we cannot forgot how myterious that thing that we discorvered was to us.

NightCrawler
12-16-2005, 11:50 PM
We will never know and/or fully understand God completely. Yes, we will be discovering things [about Him and our world that He made] 10 years from now; however, we cannot forgot how myterious that thing that we discorvered was to us.
Given infinite time, I believe we can. Too bad we don't have that here on the poor planet Earth. Heaven, however... eternity. And consider this verse:

1st Corinthians 13:
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

Does this mean when 'the perfection comes', that what we know in part is loses this quality (imperfection)? What would this be? -- Knowing everything?

alorian
12-17-2005, 07:25 AM
Oooooooo, YEAH!!! I love this sort of conversation..

Yeah, God will give us wisdom and understanding, but some things I don't think he will. Take eternity for example. Can any one of us fully understand this concept? The universe has been here forever. God says this, right? According to science, eternity exists. Matter can be neither created nor destroyed, correct? So there has to always have been SOMEthing, right? Even if there was just a teeming mass of energy, or a large lump of matter, there's always been something. But, God created everything. He said so.

1) Eternity is real. God says so.
2) God created everything. He says so.

He created everything, right? So what was before? Was it another plane of existance, heaven? Hmmm, thoughts on my mind as of late, err, last week anyway.

skynes
12-17-2005, 11:30 AM
Here's a suggestion on matter being created or destroyed.

I am a programmer.

I make a program for a person.

In that program, I code security, so that the user neither knows what happens or has access to the code. In essence I have made sure that nothing "can be added or taken away"

Within the Universe, I believe God has coded a line of code which essentialy says:

Matter cannot be created or destroyed.

In the same way that my program is vulnerable to change until I lock it out, that limitation did not apply until AFTER God coded it. Otherwise God would not have been able to create anything either.

============

There's been an influx of Sciency convos recently. Temporal Theory, Matter/Anti-Matter and this.

I LOVE IT!

alorian
12-17-2005, 04:59 PM
God isn't bound by science, the same rules that we are. He's God, omnipotent, afterall ;)

NightCrawler
12-17-2005, 08:32 PM
There's been an influx of Sciency convos recently. Temporal Theory, Matter/Anti-Matter and this.

I LOVE IT!
;D;D;D!!!!!!!!!!