Isildur9473
01-21-2006, 11:54 PM
The Draft was first enacted in the Civil War. Both the Union, and the Confederacy used the draft. It's come up again throughout history, most recently in Vietnam. Vietnam was a long, drawn out conflict, that was fought in smaller incursions rather than large scale battles. The war in Iraq is shaping up to be like this too. Every day, a few soldiers die, and sooner or later they're going to run out. Now, this many not happen for a while, but if we keep getting into wars, a draft might come up.

Why aren't women included in the draft? Men, and women have the same rights. In the United States, men can vote, women can vote. Men are citizens, and females are citizens. It is the responsibility of a citizen to fight for the nation they reside in, so why is it that only men are in the draft?

Women are allowed in the army. Women can hold political positions. It's looking like Hilary Clinton has a viable shot at the White House. Women have all the rights that men have in this country. So why is it that only men are drafted?

I don't believe women should have the same rights as men do in this country, unless they're subject to the draft just like men. Now, people could say that women are not as "Emotionally stable" or "Physically strong" than a man, but how strong do you have to be to pull a trigger? In World War 2, female snipers in Russia killed far more Germans then the men did. Women have steadier hands which make them better at firing guns then a man. So why is it that women are not conscripted?

What are your thoughts on this?

Spiffles
01-22-2006, 12:37 AM
The reason in Asutralia, why women dont serve in "front line combat" is because of physical issues.. That is the reason... it may not be a good reason or it may be.. i'm undecided because i dont know much on human body to come to any conclusion...
But i imagine it's the same reason as in the states??

terrasin
01-22-2006, 02:14 AM
First off, in those wars, we lost hundreds of thousands of men. How many have we lost in the war on Iraq? 2050? That's a very small number compared to other wars we have fought in this country, so I would say we are doing pretty good. In war, there are always casualties. It's just simple fact. These men (and women) know what they are getting into when they join the armed forces. They know that one day, they might have to go out and "earn their pay", and they know the risks from day 1. Anyone who says "Well, uhh, I joined the army to learn how to knit, derherher" probably shouldn't be leaving the house in the first place. You know, the types that actually have to watch the airline stewardess to figure out that the clippy thingy goes into the hole on the latch thingy. They know the risks and are trained to deal with them as best as humanly possible. But again, in war, there are casualties.

To follow up on the question, I don't believe that women should be part of the draft. But I also firmly don't believe they should be part of the army either. God, when he created us, made us up differently. And I'm sorry if someone gets offended, but women are made to be the weaker sex. They are made to be the followers and devoters. Not the protectors and leaders. This is just the way things are. If your a female and feel differently about this, I say get over it and accept the hand you were delt. Men can't have babies or breastfeed, and women shouldn't be trying to be men. These are just the cards we are delt in life and we have to accept and play them as they come.

Women don't have the same frame build as men. Another reason they shouldn't be part of a draft: could you imagine a 105 pound blonde cheerleader being drafted into the army and put on the lines? She wouldn't even be strong enough to cary her equipment across the field. Now some females have bigger builds, I understand that. But it doesn't change what they are: female.

Call me sexist and discriminatory all you want, but I can tell you that 95% of the men on that battlefield don't want to be there either. A lot of those men have wives and kids that are the only thing they think about when they are on the field and are constantly wondering if they will ever see them again. My best friend, husband and father of two, almost became one of those numbers. He was hit by a mortar and blown through a brick wall and woke up back in Germany where he couldn't remember a thing about it. The only thing that saved him was the flack jacket that the president issued his troop. His wife and two kids were what he thought about 99% of the time he was in the field and he wanted nothing more than to be back with them, but he was doing what he felt he needed to do. I only say this because people need to understand the reality that these men face every day while we sit at home and watch opinionated news about who is doing what wrong, they are out there fighting for our country. And you can whine all you want about how they aren't fighting the right war, but the facts are that we need to stamp out terrorism in every way, shape, and form so that we can live in this country without fear of another 9/11. Too many people have forgotten the standing ovation that GW recieved the day he stood in NYC and promised a nation that he would do everything in his power to stop terrorism. And I'm not saying you have to like GW, but to support our troops when they need it most and stop the senseless political bickering about why we should or should not be fighting this war.

CJ

zeroneff
01-22-2006, 09:26 AM
Im with terrasin on this one

Isildur9473
01-22-2006, 10:23 AM
I didn't mean to say that the war in Iraq will require a draft being started. If we keep getting into wars, then eventually an all-volunteer army is going to get smaller. Less people will volunteer, because who actually wants to go to war? Who wants to re-enlist after serving a tour of duty?

I do support our troops. It's not up to them where they go, where they die etc. But, there is a difference betwene supporting soldiers, and supporting the President.

amodman
01-22-2006, 11:10 AM
I didn't mean to say that the war in Iraq will require a draft being started. If we keep getting into wars, then eventually an all-volunteer army is going to get smaller. Less people will volunteer, because who actually wants to go to war? Who wants to re-enlist after serving a tour of duty?

I do support our troops. It's not up to them where they go, where they die etc. But, there is a difference betwene supporting soldiers, and supporting the President.

Actually, the volunteers for the army had a boom post-9/11 because of all the people that wanted to go fight the enemy who attacked their homeland. In any case, no one wants to be in a "perpetual war" or all this nonesense that some try to say the current presidency is wanting. But, as Terrasin said, this has been a very light war (death wise). I hate to play a numbers game but...2050? What % of our forces is that? Marginal.

^^^ bleh, end tangent.

sky_flashings
01-22-2006, 12:35 PM
Heh, females and the draft. Goody goody. I personally don't thing women should be on the front lines at all. While a lot of women are strong enough to handle such situations, most women are pathetic when it comes to bravery and killing. I don't mean to talk down women, I am a woman myself, but we weren't made to do that kind of stuff. If a woman wants to be a career woman, that's fine, whatever. But if she wants kids, I don't think she should have a career. Someone needs to be at home raising and watching the kids, while the naturally stronger sex goes out to earn a living. (I'm not saying women are weak. The fact that we have babies is proof that we aren't. Naturally we are made physically weaker as far as labor goes, which is why I think most women should stay home and care for the children and house.) However, many women are insisting that they can do things just as well as men. And in some aspects, they can. To me, if they want to keep thinking like that, then they can be included into the draft. Where I have a problem with that, though, is if the draft is random, then many kids can find themselves without parents because they were drafted to fight. And not every family has extended family who will watch and raise their kids while they are off fighting a war. *shrugs* I just believe that women need to stay home and take care and help keep the country going while the men are out fighting, like the women did for WWII. And if you ask me, if we get to a point where so many of our men are dying and we have to start drafting women, that we're in serious trouble and shouldn't risk losing any more lives. To talk of women having to be drafted because there are no more men means a major drop in our population. And if women have to be drafted, then there's going to be tons of kids left over with no one to care for them. To me, that says our country would be in major doo-doo.

theelectric3
01-22-2006, 02:05 PM
who would take care of the kids if women were drafted along with the men? families would be serparted and ripped apart worse. it's hard enough for the husband and father to go... but the wife and mother too?

maybe women aren't drafted because someone has to stay back and help keep soceity moving while the men go to war(?). that's not to say there aren't women already out there and that all men would leave and go to war (because that isn't the case either).

just some food for thought i suppose.

kittygirl
01-22-2006, 02:49 PM
Our country's already in jeapardy concerning the family. I'm sick and tired of the feminist mindset, not to mention the "Me-first" mindset that "I come first, my family second."

I'm sick and tired of seeing families torn apart by selfishness. So this would just make it worse. Not to mention the role-reversal that is going on too, trying to feminize men, and masculinize women. It's just terrible.

Women are strong in their own way.

unshakeable15
01-22-2006, 02:54 PM
i recently read a blog that sited an article that gives good reason for men to go to combat and women not. (the arcticle can be found here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060118/ap_on_sc/schadenfreude_study), and the blog, here (http://ateam.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/1/19/1714574.html).)

basically it states that men actually get a feeling of satisfaction from watching an "enemy" suffer (in the study, it was with a card game. go read it if you haven't). women are better sympathizers. it's built into their system. so they have a harder time harming someone else. they can do it, certainly, but it's harder.

as for women getting drafted pulling them away from families and leaving kids without either parent, the military allows you to refuse the draft in certain situations (religion disallows killing and such) and i'm certain that would be one of them.

disciple
01-22-2006, 03:28 PM
I agree with what has been said thus far, but I wanted to add that there were plenty of people who joined the army since 9/11 had no clue what they were getting into. Some I have known personally. They join, thinking it could be some fun little adventure like in the video games, then they see their best friend die by a car bomb and wake up.

I knew one guy, relaxed as ever, fit as a machine (though a little chubby from video gaming too much ;)), thought being a trooper would rock, thought the idea of killing some Iraqis (his words) would be a thrill. He comes back from Iraq a while back and so much as closing a door behind him can set him off, and slamming anything could get him into pounding your face in.

So, no, not everyone who joins knows what they're getting into.

john316
01-22-2006, 06:02 PM
I think that drafting women would be considered aiding and abetting the enemy. ;)

drumchick101
01-22-2006, 06:48 PM
Our country's already in jeapardy concerning the family. I'm sick and tired of the feminist mindset, not to mention the "Me-first" mindset that "I come first, my family second."

I'm sick and tired of seeing families torn apart by selfishness. So this would just make it worse. Not to mention the role-reversal that is going on too, trying to feminize men, and masculinize women. It's just terrible.

Women are strong in their own way.

Ya, what she said.

I think it's also immature the way women always want to be like men. I mean, even now (I'm 17) God is starting to show me the role of a wife and once you grasp it (which I know that there is obviously MUCH for me to learn yet) it's an awsome thing. Hmmm...perhaps God knew what He was doing after all..

But I have also read stuff about how women's skin is made different than men's. Men's skin has more oil and is thicker. While women's skin is softer and less resistent to nature and weather and such. I wouldn't doubt that the skin is not the only difference.

><sarah><

newday_7
01-22-2006, 10:03 PM
Yeah i agree that women shouldn't be drafted. One of the biggest reasons for me is that when i get a wife, i'm going to want to protect her with my life and i'd die for her, so there's no way that i'd want her to have to go to war i would want to do everying i could to keep her safe and well war's really not the best place for keeping people safe

md4j
01-23-2006, 09:02 AM
I agree with what has been said thus far, but I wanted to add that there were plenty of people who joined the army since 9/11 had no clue what they were getting into. Some I have known personally. They join, thinking it could be some fun little adventure like in the video games, then they see their best friend die by a car bomb and wake up.

I knew one guy, relaxed as ever, fit as a machine (though a little chubby from video gaming too much ;)), thought being a trooper would rock, thought the idea of killing some Iraqis (his words) would be a thrill. He comes back from Iraq a while back and so much as closing a door behind him can set him off, and slamming anything could get him into pounding your face in.

So, no, not everyone who joins knows what they're getting into.You'd have to be oblivious to reality to NOT know what's going on over there.

sky_flashings
01-23-2006, 10:11 AM
Yeah i agree that women shouldn't be drafted. One of the biggest reasons for me is that when i get a wife, i'm going to want to protect her with my life and i'd die for her, so there's no way that i'd want her to have to go to war i would want to do everying i could to keep her safe and well war's really not the best place for keeping people safe
Going along with what you said...I was listening to a radio program the other day and the topic was women and hunting and how men don't think women should be hunting. One of the reasons was because men have a natural pride to impress their wife with their hunting, showing them what they can do, etc. and when a woman comes along and starts hunting it hurts their pride. I somehow doubt personal pride isn't as noticed in a war than when hunting, but I'll bet it would hurt a man's pride to have his wife enter a war and go kick some butt. This may not be true with all men, or at all, I'm just observing, but this is just the way it seems to me.

disciple
01-23-2006, 02:09 PM
You'd have to be oblivious to reality to NOT know what's going on over there.
Most people around that age around here ARE oblivious. They don't watch the news at all. Period.

sky_flashings
01-23-2006, 03:55 PM
That's true, and a lot of people get the wrong idea about things through tv, movies, and video games. They can tend to think that they'll be invincible, or it's not so bad that they don't understand the reality of it. The media often gives a glorius aspect to being in a war, and I imagine most people who've been in a war would think anything but that.

timmyrotter
01-23-2006, 06:44 PM
no way the draft will be used again after vietnam... too many human rights and peace movements... it has become very unpopular, and besides it is unneccesary like CJ said (i think) because we have only lost 2,000+ in this "war on terror"... the onl way it would come back is if we went to war with China.

agent_c68
01-23-2006, 09:38 PM
There is also the issue of relationships.

A man at my church who was SF durring Vietnam was told that he was getting too close to his men, that he had such a close relationship that he possibly could not order one of his men into a situation where that soldier could die. It's hard enough sending a friend into a situation where there is a low probability that he would survive, but what about a lover? Guys, could you send your girlfriend to her death?

What about the nature of soldiers. Being away from home and facing death every day can change a man. Consider this, 9 months after soldiers return to their wives, hospitals become a little busy. Imagine if a soldier didn't have to wait to get home for that, this single issue has it's own set of issues that come with it. Along the same lines, what if a female soldier gets captured by a group of soldiers who have not seen a woman in several months.

It's not that I think women should have no involvment in the military, just not in the way we traditionally think of soldiers.

PinkGoo
01-24-2006, 08:43 AM
I really don't think that women should be drafted... for all the reasons that have already been named. But still, they shouldn't be able to have the same rights as men if the men are the only ones who are required to protect their country. It's not fair. If they are going to allow the females of this country to escape the draft, they shouldn't be allowed the same freedoms and liberties as the ones who ARE out there serving and dying for their country.

Bassplayer
01-25-2006, 06:00 AM
i think that women should not be included in the draft unless we desperately need them. Not to sound sexist or anything, but i think most men are stronger and would be able to kill if nececary before a women. But there are some exceptions. If we need the troops really bad, then if women can't be drafted, why don't they just go and join? I'm so sick about hearing this crap about drafts.

Alot of people voted for kerry just because they thought a draft would come if bush was made president again.

If you know that a draft is coming, then just join the army because then you can choose what field you want to go into and you get good training. In most drafts you trained and then dropped on the front lines. So i say, i your a woman (or man) and a draft is coming, if the women want to join then, go join. if the men don't want to get drafted, then go join the reserves or something.

But no, i don't think that women should be drafted like the men. I think that women need to be trained in a specific field of expertise. They would be much better at what they do if they chose what they wanted.

unshakeable15
01-26-2006, 04:29 PM
(just keep in mind when you say that men are stronger than women, that's only in brute strength. a woman's muscle is actually leaner and stronger for it's size than a man's. basically, take a man and a woman the same size and weight, the woman will be stronger.)

alorian
01-26-2006, 06:16 PM
According to my instructor-sergeants, men are better at push-ups, women situps. We all have advantages and disadvantages.

Bassplayer
01-27-2006, 05:47 AM
exactly. i agree that women have steadier hands and would probably be better at sniping or something like that. also, some men tend to get restless whereas alot of women can sit in a place for a long time. We each have our own usages (is that a word?) men might be stronger in brute strength and more willing to kill when push comes to shove. not saying that a woman can't. There are exceptions to all of these. I'm just saying that if women want to be in the army, they should not be drafted. They could join like everybody else in the country during a peaceful time.

sky_flashings
01-27-2006, 10:32 AM
also, some men tend to get restless whereas alot of women can sit in a place for a long time.
They can? :o Every woman I've known likes to move around and be somehow active. Granted, a lot of them seem to have more patience, if that's what you mean. But no offence with stereotyping here...but us women usually talk too much to be categorized under the "can sit still for a very long time" category.

Bassplayer
01-27-2006, 08:38 PM
i meant patience. i've seen some women who, when they get focused and have a goal, man they're intense. I mean, they have on blinders so they can't see anything but their goal. some men are like that too. But yeah, some women do talk a little too much. lol

skelfy
01-28-2006, 07:27 AM
This is the part where I become a sniper and head on over to Iraq. haha.

Bassplayer
01-29-2006, 06:43 AM
if that's what you want then go ahead. lol

Mr. Xcitement
01-29-2006, 11:52 AM
I also heard on the radio that starting this year so far, enlistment has been higher than it was last year at this time. Also, since the war in Iraq, re-enlistment has been at an all time high. So a draft is very very far away.

disciple
01-29-2006, 01:36 PM
This is the part where I become a sniper and head on over to Iraq. haha.
skelfy fragged disciple with M87ELR


I spend way too much time on SOCOM. ::]

skelfy
02-02-2006, 09:27 AM
skelfy fragged disciple with M87ELR


I spend way too much time on SOCOM. ::]

...is that a grenade? Or some obscure gun on a video game?

OTD
02-02-2006, 11:56 AM
I believe it's the SOCOMM version of the actual Barrett M82A1 .50 cal. BMG Rifle, a .50 cal. semiautomatic sniper rifle, updated versions of which are used by some snipers today. The Mike 82 actually entered service in early 1991. BMG means Browning Machine Gun...which is the M2 .50 heavy machine gun you see on HMV's and tanks. They use the same ammunition.

Actually, much preferred by most Scout/Snipers is a .300 win mag, next being a 7mm Rem Mag. Both are MUCH MUCH less punishing to shoot and have a flatter trajetory, and more importantly are WAY LIGHTER. That being said, the effective range of a .50 BMG full metal jacket is over 4 miles. That concludes your armaments lesson for today. HOOAH!

Legacy
02-02-2006, 05:50 PM
Skelfy..."Fragged" is the general term for killed in a combat game. Play Halo for a while. lawl