1 Corinthians 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the
word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the
word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another
faith by the same Spirit, to another
gifts of healings by the same F39 Spirit, 10 to another the
working of miracles, to another
prophecy, to another
discerning of spirits, to another
different kinds of tongues, to another the
interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

1 Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
How should one go about asking God for the gifts?

*shrugs* Maybe just ask God to give you the spiritual gifts that he wants for you?

You said yourself

distributing to each one individually as He wills

So ask for God's will in what gifts you get.

You trying to be clever? ;D


OK. I said that to get the conversation rolling. ;D I mean is tongues for everyone. - I believe it is.

Why not. Doesn't say they aren't

I disagree, we are not given all of the spiritual gifts and all don't receive the same gift (these spiritual gifts that is). read the last paragraph of 1 Cor. 12 (27-31)
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.


Am I forbiding anyone to stop speaking in tongues? No, I am saying that it is not possible for some (they don't have the ability to do it), but I am not saying that they should not if they have the gift.

Also I think that just becuase some1 doesn't have it now doesn't mean they never will.

Mark 16
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Jesus here also says something and he uses the definate word "will" - very hard words to use and very precise in meaning. Making what he said a definate.

This isn't to destroy ppl's faith, but to tell them, that when you know you believe in Jesus, you should also take this up as a promise. And pray that you may receive all he has in store for believers.

I see it like this: The Spirit gives the gifts to those who desire it.(He chooses those who desire it) Cause God could always use another person who is willing.

I took God up for this promise and I received what my heart desired, a few months after I got baptized in the Holy Spirit. Tongues was also the thing that made me get baptized again. And I never look back with disappointment, but always with a sure knowledge. I struggled with this stuff, but in the end I had to go and just read what the scriptures said about it. Don't just read 1 part, but know that whatever you read, God will rather much more give, than take.

He wants us to be equipped will all he has for us. That's a mind change we must make. God wants to give. And we must rest in this fact. God gave his Son Jesus, why won't he give us all the other heavenly blessings? They are worth nothing compared to what he has already given.

He certainly will give us the desires of our hearts if we come in faith.

I disagree, we are not given all of the spiritual gifts and all don't receive the same gift (these spiritual gifts that is). read the last paragraph of 1 Cor. 12 (27-31)
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.


Am I forbiding anyone to stop speaking in tongues? No, I am saying that it is not possible for some (they don't have the ability to do it), but I am not saying that they should not if they have the gift.


I tend to agree with agent 86 on this.... in the passage from Mark 16 Jesus is talking about the body of believers as a whole...I dont see where he said "they all"(as a individual) would do these signs but as a body they would.

Now back to the original guestion...How do we obtain these gifts??...I think that Jesus answered that in Mark 9 when his disciples tried to cast out a demon but were unable to and they asked Jesus as to why they couldnt...he said in verse 29 that these things are done through prayer and fasting....and i feel that if we do that with sincere heart God will give us these gifts as he desires.

If he is talking of the whole, then He must be talking of everybody?? All christians can use the name of Jesus to cast out demons, so my logical deduction says that he was talking to every single one of the whole. Otherwise only some would be able to use Jesus' name, but it is available to everyone.

I don't remember fasting when I prayed for the gifts.
When you are part of a group of believers where some can talk in tongues, I figure they should lay their hands on you and pray for you. Throughout acts, this was the way the Holy Spirit was given. And then the gifts manifested with the giving of the Holy Spirit. It was a sign of the giving of the Holy Spirit.


The first step I think is that you must know that God wants you to have the gift. That is the first step of faith you must take.Without that, there is no use in praying for it, cause you believe you won't receive it. That is why I say, that everybody can receive tongues and all the other gifts, if they have faith that God wants to give it to them and that he wants them to have it.

Everyone who desires a gift shall receive it. But it must be mingled with faith and not just a desire. And we must actually ask for it.

Matthew 7:7-11
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

First yuou have to believe in Jesus Christ. That is most important (LOL. It's essential!)

I've prayed with a few ppl, but not all of them receive tongues. What we do is lay our hands on them and then we start praying that God will give them the gift of tongues. We also pray in tongues while we lay on hands. If you at first do not receive. Do not stop. Faith keeps on asking! and believing

Then I tell ppl that they must step out in faith, knowing that God will use them if they step out. God never takes over control, no he lets His Spirit work with us as he speaks. So anytimes while you are speaking in tongues, you can stop. So you as a person must start to talk according to how the Spirit moves in you.

Anyway. We then pray for tongues and encourage the ppl to pray after us. This is where it gets dangerous. You must tell the ppl that it does not come from the mind, rather the heart. And that the sounds aren't created in the mind but is brought forth from the spirit. From within. It is not repetition of the sounds you hear, no every word is birthed by the Spirit inside and expressed by you.

A person must take a step in faith and start to speak. Only faith pleases Goid. Ppl have fear that they won't be able to do it, but after you've spoken in tongues, it becomes obvious that everyone who believes can do it.

I have nothing special in me that makes me stand out more than any other believer. All that can seperate us is our faith.

Mt 9:29
Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."

Ro 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;

2Co 4:13
And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke,"* we also believe and therefore speak,
(PLS note the speak above does not refer to tongues. I put it in because of the principle it reflects)

Believe God and ask him to reveal it to you. Ask him to reveal the gift that is already in you.(through the Holy Spirit)

And as with all spiritual things, God must be the source and everyone must cling to him in faith, not man.

Don't get discouraged, but know that God wants it for you and because tongues are on a whole other level than the normal things we experience, you won't know how to, you just got to step out in faith and speak, trusting God that he will supply the words.

Another lengthy post was lost. AAARRRGGGHHH!!! Net work ADMIN!!!

In very short:

The Holy Spirit will not move our mouths and our vocal chords so that we speak in tongues. It is your act of faith. You supply the voice, and the Spirit supplies the words. You have to speak out in faith. We aren't marionet puppets.

Evil spirits like to take over part or all of human function. The Holy Spirit works with us and not apart from us. He isn't going to override your ability to speak. You have to be part of what he does. And you can stop if you want to. God won't be mad. LOL He loves us and wants us to prosper.

All I say, that you should prayerfully , while reading the scripture especially Jesus' words and acts go through the above. CHeck it and test it. But don't critisize it just yet. .

If you already speak in tongues feel free to critisize. But if you don't just think this through prayerfully. Just because it's unknown ground doesn't mean it's untrue.

But again. You have to deal with God about this. He is the giver of all gifts. Jesus Christ is Lord.

i think all of this boils down to what your interpretation of speaking in tongues means...mine is completely different than yours

1 Corinthians 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the
word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the
word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another
faith by the same Spirit, to another
gifts of healings by the same F39 Spirit, 10 to another the
working of miracles, to another
prophecy, to another
discerning of spirits, to another
different kinds of tongues, to another the
interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

1 Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.




It seems that when you quote this passage you miss the phrases "to one" and "to another". This clearly shows that each of us have differing gifts which is reitterated by verse 11 distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Not as we will but as He wills. I don't know if you realize it but your post strongly implies that if you don't have the gift of tongues you don't have the faith to posses that gift. As if it's a test of ones faith. So then the faith of the one without tongues is questionable. One could pray for the gift of tongues till the cows come home and if it's not Gods will they wont recieve that gift. However that same persons gift (given by Gods will) is wisdom or discernment in a huge messure; (which is vital for the body to function) could be looked over because he has so little faith that he doesn't speak in tongues.
Yes the bible says ask and it will be given. And yet even Jesus prayed in the Lords Prayer (which is a model of how to pray) Matt 6:10 Your Kingdom come, Your will be done." And also in the Garden of Gethsemene Matt 26:39 not as I will, but as You will".

This is actually the reason I left the church I was working at. As the story goes, they brought in some people for a seminar on Spiritual Gifts. When I was told about this, they told me that they were going to talk about them so we would have a deeper appriciation for them and be able to seek them easier. What it actually was, was something they are actually fooled into believing. It started out fine, long boring talks about spiritual gifts and trying to throw single Bible verses at us to show they were correct. (a lot of you already know my feelings on churches twisting verses to fit their own wants and desires which is very easy to do with their "deeper meanings" Grrr) Then came "spiritual gift activation time" where we picked out a partner we didn't know and stood in front of one another and started praying in tongues that God would give us a word, a prophecy for the person in front of us.

Call me skeptic, but I believe there are very few "true prophets" left in the world. I once belonged to this "Elijah List" thing my pastor told me to hop on and read cause they would propheci about the town we lived in. "2001 will be the year of this town" 2001 came and went, nothing happened... "God tells me in 2002, this town will have a revival of the church!" 2002 came.... nothing. And when you live in a town of 320 people, you know when the guy down the road is going to the bathroom. So a revival of people would be like the Circus coming to town. In my time there, I never saw one person get saved... mainly because we never had any new people come in.

Anyway, back on topic. So I would start praying in tongues for a minute or 3 and as soon as he said stop, we would all stop and be silent and God was going to give us a word for the other person. So I waited.......... and waited.......... nothing. And some times my imagination would put meaningless things into my head and we were suppose to tell them. The one I remember most was a rocking horse. And when it came time to explain, the lady was like "well, a rocking horse has no significance to me, but MAYBE God is talking about my life going back and fourth like a rocking horse!" Yah, maybe God was trying to show you where your screws went missing to, lady. After the first night of this horrid 3 day event, we went back for a second day. Halfway through, I had still had nothing in my head God was giving me. I left the conference and went into our prayer room feeling defeated. I felt like I wasn't good enough to do this. God spoke to me at this point and told me to leave the conference. Something wasn't right with that event. It was showing more abuse of Spiritual Gifts. After that time, I became very aware of how much it's abused and I started noticing it more in other churches. People just aren't careful when it comes to the Gifts.

That was the last day I attended that church. I never stepped foot into it. I didn't even bother explaining to my youth the reasons of my leaving, though I did have a chance to explain to them later. And before I left that town, I explained to one family in perticular why I left and all was ok. I still love those people and I pray they see why I left for themselves to bring the change needed.

God gives us the Gifts as He desires because He is the one who knows which of them we can use to the best of our abilities. Not everyone can speak in tongues, not everyone can propheci, not everyone can cast out demons and rise the dead. And I have yet to see somone move Mt Everest (Ok, so that doesn't apply. At least it sounded good at the time). But there are reasons God gives them out at His own whim. And be careful what you are taught in the church. Make sure it's in tune with the way God meant it.

CJ

And some times my imagination would put meaningless things into my head

That's why I don't try to prophesy or try to pray in tongues, It wud more likely be my mind working than God. If God wants to give me a prophesy or tongues he can and will. But I'm not gonna start using osmething I'm not sure I even have, if I have it he will tell me.

I DO know I have wisdom and discernment. Im not sure on ths one but I might have encouragement too. Recently the random things I say and just giving my opinion on something has encouraged ppl. I don't intend to encourage them they just get encouraged from what I say. What do you think of that?

1 Corinthians 12

(verse 7) ...manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all...

So by this standard, everyone must receive one of the mentioned gifts. Each one would include everyone.

Terrasin, just because of experiences you had, you say that the gifts are not for everyone. But I disagree, I don't go on experience, I go on the Scripture and character of God. Yes sometimes we do miss what God wants to say, but God honours our desire to do his will.

You must have a manifestation of the Spirit of God, no matter what gift it is. Gifts aren't gifts in themselves, but they are really an extention of Jesus Christ, who is the Gift himself(John 3:16 "...that he gave his only Son...")

They have nothing to do with salvation, although they can be used to let ppl see the power of God, they are meerly given to build up the body of Christ.

If you want to build up other ppl, then you will receive the gifts if you pray for them and keep on praying without doubting. God wants to give us the gifts. If we confidantly place our trust in his provision, he will supply our desire for the gifts. (Paul said we should desire them.) It is not wrong to desire the gifts, we should just make sure that our reason for the gifts is the same as the Lord's and not for our own pride.

Not everyone has access to all the gifts or can choose what gifts they want. I know a man who was serving in an area that he was not gifted and was having a horrible time (he started to dislike coming to church because of it), later he took a class at my church for identifing and using spiritual gifts. Now he is working in a diffrent ministry and flourishing! It wasn't that he didn't pray enough to get the gifts needed for that ministry, but that he was given gifts for a diffrent ministy. It is God who determines the gifts we get, not us.

Ephesians 4:7,8,11
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8Therefore He says:

"When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men."

11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

And why do we recieve these spiritual gifts?

Ephesians 4:12 (continuing from the passage above)
12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

so, why do you want the gift of speaking in tongues? and what is it supposed to accomplish?

Xon, you like to use scriptures a lot to prove your point, but that is one of the ways the church is killing itself. Scripture can be twisted and turned to fit each person's want for it's meaning, but the fact is you can't just take one part of a scripture and say "here it is". You need to read the whole thing, bold faced instead of one piece. Heck, I can go through the Bible and find contradicions all over the place by reading one line. But it's the whole thing that matters, not a single line.

CJ

Ephesians 4:7,8,11
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8Therefore He says:

"When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men."

11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

And why do we recieve these spiritual gifts?

Ephesians 4:12 (continuing from the passage above)
12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

so, why do you want the gift of speaking in tongues? and what is it supposed to accomplish?


Tongues is there for a few reasons. But I'll first address the scripture you quoted. It refers to ministries and not to spiritual gifts. It refers to the ministry positions of the five-fold ministry. Jesus gave ppl to be prophets, evangelists, apostles, pastors and teachers. This is their ministry and not their spiritual gifts. Go into the wrong ministry and it will be hard, I agree. But all of these ministries can flow in ANY of the spiritual gifts.

But it isn't just these that can flow in the gifts, all flesh can:

Joel 2
28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

The reason for tongues:

1 Corinthians 14:4
He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

When a message is brought in a tongue and it is interpreted, it functions the same as a prophecy. (Edifies the ppl) But it is also important for our spiritual edification, in our spirit. Speaking in tongues builds our inner self in relation to God. Even though the mind profits nothing, the man's spirit does profit.

14:5
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

***

TerraSin, I am not quoting these verses out of context, I am just magnifying the teaching that is given. You can go read the whole context, but the meaning of the verses stays the same. I have quoted them in context.

And you won't be able to find contradictions in prophecy.

To me the BIble Scriptures is final authority. And it says, God wants to bless and build the church, not destrroy it. His heart is for us, is that so hard to believe? If he gave his son, wouldn't he give all the other good things to us? Will he withhold any spiritual blessing?

Ppl don't know God's heart, that's why they run arround in their ways and then they say that God isn't faithful, because they err. Most things we believe is because of our experiencing of lies and the world.

Maybe we should conform our believes so we believe that God is totally good, and in him there is no darkness. Jesus has paid the debt for our sin and God isn't mad at us. He has no reason at all to be. He has no hidden agenda, he wants to do good to us.

He wants to bless us with every good heavenly blessing, why don't we believe that he will give more than he said, more than we could ever read or think of. God isn't us, he isn't a man. He wants to heal and he wants to restore and bless. That is his heart, no it is more. He would give everything that he holds dear, that we may have a glympse of what he feels for us. How he loves us.

Why won't ppl believe that God bless those who come in faith to him? Why don't ppl believe that God will give?

I'm a little lost. I've totally lost track of what this thred is about... What are you guys talking about!? You totally lost me.

Right I'm on track now.
I think that spiritual gifts are for everyone. Not everyone will have them, or use them. That doesn't mean they CANT have them.

As I stated before, God knows each person. He knows what gifts they can use to the best of their ability to what they are doing in their life just as He doesn't give people some gifts for whatever reason He has for not giving them that.

My old roommates wife is a huge intercessor yet she has never spoken in tongues. She knows there is a reason she can't.

CJ

^ I have no arguments with that. Everyone can have spiritual gifts but that doesn't mean that everyone will get the same one.

Everyone has at least one gift given to them through the Holy Spirit. it is our job to discover our gifts (however many we are blessed with) and learn how to use them best in order to glorify God.

What about you can have all spiritual gifts, but you only get those you desire? Which will be those that you want to use.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. I never prayed to recieve the spiritual gifts I have, they were given to me the day I was saved and they only become more evident the closer I get to God.

Well, technically they are given to you the day you are born, seeing as God knows everything about your past, present, and future, which I find strange in ways because he already knows who will fly and who will burn... which is also kind of disturbing... but thats a topic for another day. Anyways, it's only when we get saved that our little stupid magnet is removed from our eyes and we can see clearly. Over time, we become aware of our gifts and what God will have us use them for.

CJ

Technicallities... ::) ;D

What about you can have all spiritual gifts, but you only get those you desire? Which will be those that you want to use.


I doubt that. Everyone can't do everything. Sortof denies the whole point of us being different.

Skynes:
But see gifts don't define who we are. They are not our identity. Having the same gifts, doesn't make us the same. (We are not suppose to find our identity in gifts)

God gives everyone the same mercy when we believe. But we are still different.

The gifts are just that, gifts given to us by God. Just like salvation is a gift. You have to believe to receive any gift from God. And I believe it is the same with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Believe and you will receive.

*******

About the God knows all thing:

It's true he knows the future, cause he has seen it. But he has seen what we do in it. He doesn't orchestrate our decisions. No when ppl listen to God, God gets a chance to manifest in the decisions and choices we make.

If you never pray or desire the gift of tongues for instance. God knows you will never ask for it. And in that you will not receive that gift. That gift is then not for you.

We put out limits, not God. If we are willing to pay the price, he is willing to go all the way. Faith pleases God.

If we have faith that he will use all the gifts in us, then that pleases him. When we believe that God is good, then that pleases him.

When you believe that not all the gifts is for you, then all the gifts aren't for you. If you believe tongues isn't your gift, then you can't receive it, simply because of your faith. - It will be to you according to your faith.

The only thing that hinder's God's work in us is our faith. Not God being limited, but we denying God the right to change us, through doubting and unbelief. There is no other quencher but unbelief. Jesus himself couldn't flow in the gift of healing and miracles because ppl didn't believe in a certain town. How much more will the gifts not flow in us because of our own unbelief?

It's about faith and not about the limitation God has, cause he has none. But he has given us authority and he can only work as much as we allow him and have faith in him.

Gifts can't be achieved, they are given and to receive, we must have faith.

Well, technically they are given to you the day you are born, seeing as God knows everything about your past, present, and future, which I find strange in ways because he already knows who will fly and who will burn... which is also kind of disturbing... but thats a topic for another day. Anyways, it's only when we get saved that our little stupid magnet is removed from our eyes and we can see clearly. Over time, we become aware of our gifts and what God will have us use them for.

CJ


Disagree disagree.
The gifts can only come when we have the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is received after believing in Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God.
So when we are born (without the Holy Spirit) we do not have the gifts.

It isn't our gifts. The gifts of the Holy Spirit is just that his gifts, which we use when he dictates and we are moved.

Talents and gifts are different. Talents are in the natural while spiritual gifts is in the supernatural.

even though this is a very interesting topic there are way to many preferences so i think ill sit back a watch instead of stateingmy point of view but i will say that i do agree wits some ppls post

Well, technically they are given to you the day you are born, seeing as God knows everything about your past, present, and future, which I find strange in ways because he already knows who will fly and who will burn... which is also kind of disturbing... but thats a topic for another day. Anyways, it's only when we get saved that our little stupid magnet is removed from our eyes and we can see clearly. Over time, we become aware of our gifts and what God will have us use them for.

CJ


Disagree disagree.
The gifts can only come when we have the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is received after believing in Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God.
So when we are born (without the Holy Spirit) we do not have the gifts.

It isn't our gifts. The gifts of the Holy Spirit is just that his gifts, which we use when he dictates and we are moved.

Talents and gifts are different. Talents are in the natural while spiritual gifts is in the supernatural.


WOW! it looks like we finally agree on something about spiritual gifts. I agree that we recieve our gifts when we accept Christ as savior and the spirit into out heart. and there is a diffrence between talent and spiritual gifts, yet spiritual gifts can enhance the talents that we have (depending on what you believe spiritual gifts are).

Disagree disagree.
The gifts can only come when we have the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is received after believing in Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God.
So when we are born (without the Holy Spirit) we do not have the gifts.

It isn't our gifts. The gifts of the Holy Spirit is just that his gifts, which we use when he dictates and we are moved.

Talents and gifts are different. Talents are in the natural while spiritual gifts is in the supernatural.


So basically you are saying that until we are saved, we live without God in our lives. ;) The fact is that we never truly live without God, just that we don't live FOR Him. If we lived without Him, our lives would be unbearable. That's all Hell is, complete seperation from the Holy Spirit.

You make being saved seem like a circus act. Like you get saved at a concert or an event and all this magical stuff happens. Lets add some special effects and lighting to make it more of a show. Like as soon as someone says a prayer of forgivness, smoke circles around them and light comes from their fingers. A real high budget film there.

The reality is, that kind of stuff doesn't happen in the real world. We are given a purpose even before we are born. We have a destiny to be fufiled in our lives. We are given gifts at birth that God knows is best for us to use at our ability. The catch is that until we accept Christ and grow in Him, we can't exactly use them because it would either be for self-edifycation or to tempt the Spirit, for which niether would God allow to happen. It's not that we don't have the gifts, it's that we don't know we have them or know how to use them because they are used for the purpose of the kingdom, not ourselves. And before we get saved, self is all we consider.

CJ

What your saying makes absolutely no sense to me.

We ARE born without God, we are actually born AGAINST God and his ways! The gifts are called the 'Gifts of the Holy Spirit' for a reason you know. You can't have em till you have the Holy Spirit, end of story. Look at all the prophesies in the Bible for example, they say things like "The Spirit of the Lord came upon" the person.


Anyway where do you get your "we all have the gifts when we are born" argument from? I can really picture Christ giving the gift of tongues to Marilyn Manson now...

We most certainly do have God with us when we are born. The Bible says that the only place void of Him is in Hell. Well Earth isn't exactly Hell. Even when we grow up not knowing Him, He is there with us. Otherwise half the worship songs we sing that talk about Him being with us even when we didn't know Him are all lies. Which would also mean that half the Bible is all lies. Just cause we are against Him, doesn't mean He isn't with us. That goes against everything we teach.

Who's to say Manson doesn't have a gift of prophecy waiting for Him? You obviousely can't use something you don't believe in or something you don't want. :)

Maybe I should rephrase my comment. From birth, God has the gifts we are to have chosen for us already. :)

CJ

Both of you are right. God is always present in this world (thus his omnipresents), Yet we are born spiritually dead, separated from him because we are unpure and he is completely Holy. It is not until we are made holy by grace when we accept his Gift that we can be "with" God. Understand?

Let's not keep going down this side trail on this topic.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit is received when we receive the Holy Spirit.

The gifts is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It is part of his work through us.

Xon you still seem to be completely skipping over 1 Cor 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Again I say His will not mine. You are still taking the stand that it's all about faith and what we want and desire and believe. Tne whole name it and claim it deal. Which really is saying that if you don't have a certain gift then your faith is lacking and you have a problem. And in some churches (that I have been to) that becomes a sort of spiritual discrimination or bigotry ("oh so and so doesn't speak in tongues he really lacks faith") We cannot force the Holy Spirit. If we had each spiritual gift we could each do it all ourselves and would have no need for each other. We could speak in a tongue and interpret it ourselves. We could proficy and interpret it ourselves.

Well. I think the will of the Holy Spirit is:

I want to give as much as I can to every child of God, to manifest the glory of God. All Jesus has given me to give I will take and give to every one who believes in him.

The Holy Spirit wants to give us everything he has that Jesus has given him. There's no limit.

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The problem IS faith, nothing else. Ppl have the wrong idea about faith. Faith is also waiting and to keep on praying, even when you don't have it now. It is a surety that God will provide. Even when you doubt, to keep on praying and waiting.

It's not a matter of condemning ppl, I encourage ppl with this. Even when you haven't received it, then keep on praying and asking. I prayed for months.
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I don't have a lot of faith, but the little I have I will use to believe all that God has for me. I am certainly not gonna believe that certain gifts aren't for me. If I do that, there is no chance that I will receive them, now is there.

If you believe the gifts aren't for you then fine, I'm not gonna press you, but you first have to believe, before you can receive. If you don't believe the gifts are for you then there is a chance less than zero that you will receive them. It is to everyone according to their faith.

If you don't believe, then you won't receive. And that is to keep on praying and waiting.

I am not saying name and claim. This is my reasoning:
What is God's heart about the gifts: He wants me to minister in it, cause it will bring glory to his name.
Skilletosis, even if we all had all the gifts, we would still need each other. I can testify that sometimes God gives me a vision or dream, and I just for the sake of me don't get the interpretation, even though I always do. Then I will tell the dream to someone and they will give me the simplest interpretation from the Lord.

We still need each other. It just makes it more powerfull when you see that the Holy Spirit uses different ppl at certain times, but the same gifts in all of them.

You just quote 1 verse, that says that the spirit gives as he wills. But I guess the rest of the Bible reveals his will, to give what Jesus has given him, to all who believe. Never does that verse say that everyone cannot walk in all the gifts, it just says that the Holy Spirit distributes these gifts according to his will, wich is in line with Jesus' and God's will and character.
I believe his will is to give to all who believe. He has no favorites. All men is equal before God. It is our faith that distinguishes us. Just like Jesus, the Spirit can only work when there is faith.

I still dont think that we'll get ALL the spiritual gifts, I think we only get the ones that suit what God wants us to do. We can MOVE in all the spiritual gifts, God can use us at any time to use any of the gifts, that doesn't mean we have them though.

Agree with that. As far as my experience go there is always a willful submission from our side to let a specific gift flow.

Xon, if you go back to page 1 and read my post along with my last one the complete passage 1 Cor.12:1-13. I just was to lazy to post the whole thing so I'm really not going on 1 verse. Also I respect that you have spent a good deal of time on this topic so when I post on this it is with a great deal of brotherly love.

When you state "The problem is faith" You have knocked ones faith whether you mean to or not. Also when you say "If you don't believe, you wont recieve" we must also remember that God answers every prayer in one of three ways "yes", "no", and "wait"even when we do believe. Which doesn't mean stop praying but does mean something unexpected or even better could happen. It would be sad if one was so focusing on receiving tongues (or another gift) that they were made to feel that they lacked the faith to recieve and something was wrong with them because they hadn't recieved. And it would be just as sad if they had someone there that encouraged them to keep praying and it will happen but leaving out the Gods will part of it. I think a good encouragement is telling people to pray "give me the gifts that you will for me so you can use me for your purpose".

Also skynes your point is a really great one.

Your assumption is that God will just give us the gifts we want, just because we had faith and prayed for it. How's this for an example: You pray that God will give you a particular girl to be your wife, you pray about it all the time and you have absoult "faith" that he will. Now, God has another woman for you, does that mean that he didn't answer your prayer? (I am not compairing the women to gifts, rather God knows what is best for us and my answer our requests "no") What if it is God's will that you never speak in tongues or you don't recieve anymore gifts?

When dealing with ppl, there is more than 1 and there is free will. If the girl doesn't want to marry you, guess what, she's not gonna.

This is different, you can't compare the spiritual gifts of God with physical things.

The gifts is an operation of the Holy Spirit and we already have the Holy Spirit.

skilletosis, I wasn't attacking anyone's faith.(Maybe I was a bit vague and hard) What I am saying, is that it is about what you believe. Not in saying that your faith is weak, I am actually saying that God will give the gifts to all who desire it to serve him with them.

And it is a matter of faith, as everything with God is. Faith really is believing what God says is true, and yet it is deeper than just believing. God says through Paul, desire the spiritual gifts and pursue love. Now if that isn't a call to believe that God will give them to you then I don't know what is. Why would the Lord instruct us to desire the best spiritual gifts, if he isn't going to give them to us.

God loves us and he will supply all our needs. Sometimes we need more of God than just faith. Even if it is only a glympse of his promise.

I am saying that God will give the gifts if ppl keep on praying. Even when it seems that you will never have it, just to keep on and pray for it. Talk to God about it. Don't let doubts come in the way. I prayed long, that's why I say keep on praying, for any of the gifts. Everybody doesn't have a desire for all the gifts. I don't, so I don't pray for them all the time. But I sometimes do, cause maybe one day God will want to use that gifts through me and then I will be ready. And he will receive honour.

I encourage everyone to keep on praying and then when you stop praying for a while then to start praying again and again.

I leave with this words of encouragement
What if God wants to use me?
What if he has all the gifts for me?
What if God has an awesome plan for my life?
What if God has a more awesome plan for my life than I could imagine.
What if our choices is the only limit God has?

Don't let your decision be guided by your fears, then you end up where you fear to be. Rather let your decision be guided by your dreams, then you'll end up where you dream to be.

first off, i must that i agree and disagree with you Xon. (i know, i have to make things confusing don't i ;)).

i agree with you on the fact that our lack of faith keeps God from working. if you look at Mark 6.1-6 we see that Jesus was rejected as a prophet in His hometown. verses 5 & 6 spell it out for us. "He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed at their lack of faith." our lack of faith keeps God from doing what He wants.

but at the same time, even all the faith in the world won't make God do something that He doesn't want to do. (this is where i talk about what i disagree with ya on). in the section in 1Corinthians on spiritual gifts, it starts out with 12.4-6 saying that the same Spirit gives different gifts. vesrse 6 give some credence to Xon, saying "There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men." that would make me think we can have all the gifts, but then it goes into the next section where it talks about one person having wisdom, another having knowledge, another having healing & so on & so forth. this is how i think those two aspects come together.

think of a talent, like singing. anybody with a voice can sing. this we know. but we also know that not everyone sounds good. (we all know we've sat next to that person on Sunday morning. ;)) there are some who sound better than others, but all can sing. but that's ok because we know those that are tone deaf or have no rhythym know how to do something else better those who can sing (paint, write, debate...) in this same way, God can use all of the gifts in us. but at the same time, He's given each of us 1 or 2 special gifts that take precedent over the others. so everyone can teach, but only a few have been given this gift so thoroughly by God as to be more effective.

this is backed up by the next section, verses 12-31. it talks about the body. now there are 3 types of body in the church. 1- your self 2- your church 3- the church herself in her entirety. this section is written more for #2 than anyone else. since it's in the middle of this whole area on spiritual gifts, i can't help but see that it's saying that everyone in the church is a body part with a specific purpose. you don't use your feet for clapping & you don't use your arms for running. so each has a purpose, but that doesn't mean you can only use your hands for clapping or legs for running. in fact, you can use your arms for running, but it's usually only done in the circus & it's not very efficient. :P (your nose & your feet are interchangable as well. ;))

in verses 29-31 it sums it up pretty well. "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts." that last part could also be translated "But you are eagerly desiring the greater gifts." with that second translation, it changes the meaning from an encouragement to an admonishment.

to be continued next post...

this bring me to the tongues aspect. yes, everyone should desire tongues. but in the same breath that i say that, i also say that if you never speak in tongues, you are not worse for wear. that is, don't worry about it. (personally, i have never spoken in tongues, but i hope to & pray to one day.) Paul said the same (without the personal note) in chapter 14. he also adds in verses 9 & "Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air...So it is with you. Since you are eaget to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind."

like someone said a page or so back, above all, we should show Love. Love is greater than all. even if we were supermen or superwomen & had every single spiritual gift to its fullest, but we were without love, it would useless & pointless & we would still be just as far away from God as before. for the purpose of the gifts are solely to bring people all the much closer to our Heavenly Father.

i took me a little bit to look into this, so that's part of why it took me so long. but i do appreciate the discussion. it has made me look into what i believe on the spiritual gifts & tongues specifically. :) thank you all.

I've been readin through some of the posts and decided to look inot this myself a little, as i always thought that God give each person a unique Spiritual gift, that no one was the same. I found these verses in Romans that i think say this...........

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[2] faith.
7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;
8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

............to me this sounds like the amount of faith you have has nothing to do with the Spiritual gift God chooses to give you but it does determin how you use it, and that each person's gift a different. It also says that each part of the body has a different function so again i think that some gifts God just doesn't want us to have, as if He wants us to focus fully and put all our energy into the gift that he has given us instead of sharing it out with many gifts, i hope you get my meaning :- i just don't kno how else to say it. These are just my thoughts so.......

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

Here's a twofold meaning. First there is the gifts and then there is the ministries. Gifts (Described later) are given by the Holy Spirit and Ministries (Five-fold ministry) like apostle/pastor/teacher/prophet/evangelist are given by the Lord.


6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

And here's the third. Certain activities that do not fall under the ministries or the gifts. This would be like extra stuff like cleaning/administration (more normal) etc. But still it is God who works it in us.



7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

The ":" indicates that an explanation follows


8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same F39 Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

This doesn't indicate that one receives only 1. Rather it indicates that the Spirit gives these, to anyone he pleases to give it to. (It is not an indication of how many ppl receive, it is an indication that the spirit will give it to one and another, showing distribution and not amount of gifts)


11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

This shows that the spirit works now, in this moment. Like for example:

We are gathered for a cell meeting. Now God uses one to give a tongue, and then another to give the translation, now one brings a prophecy and then we lay on hands for one another, praying for heeling in our bodies and hearts. The someone may have a word of knowledge for someone and another could give a word of wisdom.

Anyone can flow in the gifts, but the Spirit chooses who will operate in the meeting.

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There is diversities of assembly types. For instance if it is a ministry assembly, the fivefold ministry will feed the flock through ministry(obviously walking strongly in only certain gifts). But when it is a communion, the body will feed one another through the gifts.

Gifts don't have to operate in ministry, they operate when we minister to one-another, and that doesn't mean we are in a specific ministry. The important thing is that we must be able to walk in the gifts as God calls us. We should pray for them, so that God can movwe through us when he needs someone in a certain place.

Ephesians 4
8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."

9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--

16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love

This shows that the "members" of the body being different refers to the ministries the Lord gives and not to the Spiritual Gifts the Spirit gives. So body parts are different when it concerns ministries, but they don't have to differ in gifts. They can all operate with the same gifts. What they do differs, but they can use the same gifts.

The last part would refer to the ministries the Lord gives and not the gifts, cause in context Paul has been talking about the ministries and not the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Make sense?

Ephesians 4
8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."

9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--

16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love

This shows that the "members" of the body being different refers to the ministries the Lord gives and not to the Spiritual Gifts the Spirit gives. So body parts are different when it concerns ministries, but they don't have to differ in gifts. They can all operate with the same gifts. What they do differs, but they can use the same gifts.

The last part would refer to the ministries the Lord gives and not the gifts, cause in context Paul has been talking about the ministries and not the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Make sense?


kinda, except i don't see how that passage talks about ministries. i talks about unity & the different aspects of the church being together still one church. i don't see how it fits. besides, what you make of the other passage? they have to come together somehow. if the 2Corinthians passage really means what i took it to, then the Ephesians passage can't mean what you took it to mean. & the opposite applies. so either our ideas need to meet in the middle (no idea where) or one of us is wrong (& i don't mind that being me).

One thing that my pastor mentioned about spiritual gifts in his sermon sunday was that you can use do what is discribed as a gift or you can be gifted with that Gift. it was a little more understandable with what he said.

There are people who are Gifted with Exhortation, but we are all called to Encourage. Christians should Give, But Some are Gifted with Giving...

Just because we do something, like giving, encouraging, or pastoring, doesn't mean that we are Gifted in that way. I can Exhort but not have the Gift of Exhortation.