jessbaby
02-05-2006, 11:00 AM
do u think that u go 2 hell if u commit suicide?

terrasin
02-05-2006, 12:41 PM
I'm more inclined to believe that anyway you look at suicide, it's considered murder. Murder by definition is premeditated killing, which is what suicide is. And one of the Bibles commandments is not to murder. That's not something I would want on my head as I face God for judgment.

CJ

Isildur9473
02-05-2006, 01:18 PM
Yes, I do. For the reasons CJ listed.

disciple
02-05-2006, 02:22 PM
I agree with CJ. I'll admit, it's a hard thing to think over, something difficult to understand. It's one of the things everybody is divided on.

morgojw
02-05-2006, 05:40 PM
that's a good point.. but I think it depends on the situation.. I know a man at our old church who's daughter commited suicide.. and yet she was a christian. If you are really a christian I don't think you would go to hell for commiting suicide becuase I don't believe you can lose your salvation. (there are verses on that but I'm not going into it right now, maybe later)

pizza brain
02-05-2006, 06:01 PM
I'm with morgojw.

amodman
02-05-2006, 06:29 PM
I don't know. Kill yourself and find out. Are there any sins that will completely "Seal your fate" to Hell? The only one I can think of is the obscure reference to rebuking the Holy Spirit (sorry, in no mood to look up verses right now, heh).

In any case, I'm not inclinced to say one or another. I'm not inclined to say anybody for sure "went to hell" or "went to heaven" who has died. You don't know them. You don't know their personal walk with God. Is murder unforgivable? Is there grace in death? How much of the "suicide" was driven by their own person? What were all the factors? I don't know, and I don't care.

Develop your own walk with God, don't try and pick apart others'.

p.s. I know that stance can kind of seem like one of those, "Well what's the point in questioning and discussing Biblical philosophy at all?" type statements. But in my mind, it's not. This is one of those issues that, in my opinion, can only have this type of an answer, *shrugs*. Like I said, kill yourself and find out (I'm joking, but you get the idea here).

newday_7
02-05-2006, 06:40 PM
i say not if you're a Christian, cause once you've asked Jesus to forgive you and have accepted His gift you have been forgiven of the sins you have commited and ever will commit, wether it be sucide (murder) or anything else

terrasin
02-05-2006, 06:52 PM
that's a good point.. but I think it depends on the situation.. I know a man at our old church who's daughter commited suicide.. and yet she was a christian. If you are really a christian I don't think you would go to hell for commiting suicide becuase I don't believe you can lose your salvation. (there are verses on that but I'm not going into it right now, maybe later)
I disagree with this. How can someone say they follow God, and yet, turn their back on him and expect to be taken in by him at the same time? It's too contradictory, especially after everything the Bible teaches us. For someone to take their own life, they aren't living for God, they are living for themselves. The whole "once saved always saved" idea is also a sham. And we could get into this huge theological debate about it as well, but when it comes right down to it, you will be a different person in 20 years than you are now, and you might not be a person of God. You could become a drug addict that sleeps with a different girl every night and convince yourself that God doesn't exist. Does that mean you wern't serious when you first came to him? No, but people change over time.

Back to topic, suicide is a very selfish decision. People who do it are usually inconsiderate on how others will react. They care only about themselves and not about the pain it would cause others. And I've heard the same sob stories now from many many people I've talked to over the years. How their lives are so bad, how they think no one loves them, how they just want to end it all (mind you, I'm talking about the ones who are serious, not the ones who are just looking for people to feel sorry for them or looking for attention). They are too blind to see what's around them and the things they have and the people who do love them. I find todays kids don't know what bad is. You look at children who live on the streets scrapping garbage cans every night for food and living in abandon buildings. Look at all the people in these other countries out east who have had tsunamis and a massive earthquake that left 100,000's of people dead and those surviving living in tents with very little food and water as winter comes in the mountains. Then you have an American kid who complains because some kids pick on them at school and their parents won't let them go out and party so they must hate them and they want to kill themselves because "they have it bad". I find that absolutely pathetic. There are people in this world who are dying to have a warm house to come home to. Who are starving and would kill to have even one meal on your dinner table. Who would love the chance to go to school, even if it meant they had to be picked on, just so they would have the opportunity to learn and make a life for themselves.

How do you think God would look on someone who doesn't appriciate all the things they do have and decided to kill themselves because they think they have it bad. Anyone who doesn't appriciate those things don't deserve to have them. And the next time one of you think about committing suicide, you remember that out there is someone without breath who would give anything to have yours.

CJ

sky_flashings
02-05-2006, 06:57 PM
Going along with what was said about suicidal people being blind to the things God has given them...
I've found that when most people get an idea in their head and let it build up and fester, especially with something as big as feeling like nobody loves you, they develop a mindset that is very difficult to destroy. Even if people are telling them how much they love them, they begin thinking things like "They say they love me, but they don't show it, because they don't make time to spend with me" or whatever. It's like if a person has a dream, and they spend their whole lives building it up, thinking about, doing their best to make it real, they will not let someone who comes in and tells them they can't do it when their whole lives have been about this dream. Changing someone's mindset is difficult, especially when it's something as serious as this.

To me, commiting suicide is basically telling God that you don't believe that He can get you out of the bad times. And if you came to Him and gave Him your life, and at the end of it tell Him that, I don't believe your faith was where it should have been, and that because you doubted at a point in your life where you should have trusted Him the most, shows that your faith was not the kind that leads to heaven.

amodman
02-05-2006, 07:00 PM
Ah, but CJ, we commit selfish sins of our own each and every day of our lives until, approximately, the day we die. At least, I know I do. Be they "large" or be they "small." I think any concrete "rule" what does and does not condemn you is hypocritical and egotistical. But hey, I guess that may just be me.

I do believe in different degrees of "salvation" (for lack of a better term) in life. That is, where, exactly, youe walk is and is not with God, and hoe much you have grown in him. I don't think, when we die, we simply quit learning and growing in our relationship with God. We simply lose our selfish, sinful natures. This is why I think it's ridiculous to pin down whether suicide is or is not a "condemning" sin.

Specific cases, I agree, may be common that we can make a reasonable assumption on whether not that person's soul was or was not truly "saved." But why? If you have a personal relationship with them, pray for God's mercy on them. But there is, I don't think, any sort of "blanket rule." I don't think such a thing really exists for much in life, really. I daresay, if God really condemned all for not directly following in his statutes to the best of their abilities to the exact moment and day they die...well, no one would be saved! God, I think, has ridiculous amount of mercy. Just plain ludicrous, really ;).

as~i~lay~dying
02-05-2006, 08:23 PM
No I do not belives so. You can still be a christian and make mistakes/go to heaven. I was a christian when I was smoking pot, and doing things with guys,sneeking out blah blah blah. Its the same...all sin is the same in God's eyes. If I died while I was doing those things, I wouldve gone to heavne, you CANNOT lose your salvation.

Spiffles
02-05-2006, 09:47 PM
I agree with what CJ said in his first post..

On the topic of loosing your faith etc etc... Its written in the bible (new testament but cant remember the verse sorry) that if you turn your back on God he will turn his back on you. Deny God and he will deny you, so the question is.. are you denying God and turning your back on him when you commit suicide? I would say yes, since that is i can guarantee, the complete opposite of Gods commandments for our lives, because you are effectively killing Gods Temple.
For the argument that we always sin and turn our backs on god.. yes that is true, but he gives us the opportunity to ask forgiveness and recieve his love and grace... You cant do that when your dead, so when you commit suicide, you dead, you cant do anything about it after that... That is all assuming the suicide is successful.. obviously if you somehow screw it up, or someone else finds you and you live, then its just like any other sin.. (God sees all sin as the same..)

anyway.. thats what i beleive..

agent_c68
02-05-2006, 10:23 PM
But if that were so, then if I sinned and was killed before I could repent, then I would go to hell.

God is faithful to his promisses, even when man is not...

if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Even if we take faithless actions, He is still faithful to his promiss of salvation. I'm not saying that suicide is ever right (although some could consider it suicide that you would give your life for someone else... I wouldn't but some might), but it does not void your salvation in Christ.

Spiffles
02-06-2006, 12:48 AM
Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


that is the verse i base what i beleive about this topic on.
Anyway.. its what i beleive.. i not fussed if people believe something else, just wanted to state my thoughts and stuff :)

skynes
02-06-2006, 12:54 AM
Answer: No.

I have not seen anything in scripture that would even remotely support the idea of going to hell for suicide.

I say it's very easy to once be close to God and following His Will and then fall away horribly and commit suicide.

E.g. King Saul.
He followed God, he prophesied, he did God's Will, he screwed up, he abandoned God, he commited suicide.

Personally I don't see a difference between one sin and another (except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit... another topic). Suicide is selfish, but so is lying, stealing, lusting, greed, pride and many other things.

All sin is a disobedience to God and an attempt to get by on your own.

"How do you think God would look on someone who doesn't appriciate all the things they do have and decided to kill themselves because they think they have it bad. Anyone who doesn't appriciate those things don't deserve to have them. "

Well all of us don't appreciate what we have and none of us deserve them. I think that's the whole idea behind 'Grace' that it's favour and salvation we do not deserve.


What about demonic interference? Noone has mentioned it yet. What about a person who demonically oppressed and was driven to suicide under their manipulations? Do they lose their salvation for being manipulated?

Mr. Xcitement
02-06-2006, 02:29 AM
To the first question, I say yes, you would go to hell for committing suicide, for it is the same as murder, and if you feel guilt or feel bad about lying, stealing or something and then get killed, I feel you would go to heaven, for even if you didn't speak it, you did humble yourself in feeling the guilt of the sin, and you cannot do that with suicide. You cannot feel bad about committing suicide, or you wouldn't be doing it in the first place. I was going to church during the 4 years that I was depressed and contimplated suicide, but I put my hope in God, and it wasn't until I broke free of those years that I consider my journey with God to start. The Bible states that things are Black and White, no grey area, everyone in the world does have salvation, but whether they choose to embrace it or not, is their choice. If you follow Jesus, and then break away and start committing sins then you would go to hell, for you have refused your salvation.

Also on the part with the demonic possession, I am not too sure about that one, because it wouldn't really be you doing it, but I would think it would all have to do with how much you fight the demon, if you embrace the demon, then yes, you would go to hell, if you fight it with all your might, and the demon wins, then I suppose you would go to heaven (givin that you had accepted Jesus).

skynes
02-06-2006, 02:48 AM
Prove it with scripture.

It's all easy to say "if you embrace the demon" if you know what it is.
I've learnt that most Christians have no idea what is messing with them, they're miserable and suicidal and don't know why.

amodman
02-06-2006, 07:43 AM
What about demonic interference? Noone has mentioned it yet. What about a person who demonically oppressed and was driven to suicide under their manipulations? Do they lose their salvation for being manipulated?

How much of the "suicide" was driven by their own person? What were all the factors?

I was staying away from the subject ;).

Mr. Xcitement
02-06-2006, 07:57 AM
I feel that what was said in the "Cutting" thread can also be applied to this. Your body is God's temple, so thus committing suicide is killing His temple. Just thought I'd add that in.

skynes
02-06-2006, 08:03 AM
So?

I don't disagree that its sin. I disagree that its unforgiveable.

I believe that Christ's blood is enough to cover the sin. If it can cover murder, adultery, rape and child sacrifice, then it can cover suicide.

morgojw
02-06-2006, 09:11 AM
So?

I don't disagree that its sin. I disagree that its unforgiveable.

I believe that Christ's blood is enough to cover the sin. If it can cover murder, adultery, rape and child sacrifice, then it can cover suicide.

I agree.. once you have excpeted Jesus as your Saviour, you can't possibly lose your salvation.. now to answer what Spiffles brought up.. thinking about that verse.. if someone was really saved, had really tasted Christ's salvation and experienced His grace.. then what could possibly make them want to leave? Once you've seen Christ's face how could you turn away?

asparagus
02-06-2006, 12:17 PM
How can someone say they follow God, and yet, turn their back on him and expect to be taken in by him at the same time? It's too contradictory, especially after everything the Bible teaches us. For someone to take their own life, they aren't living for God, they are living for themselves.

Back to topic, suicide is a very selfish decision. People who do it are usually inconsiderate on how others will react. They care only about themselves and not about the pain it would cause others.

How do you think God would look on someone who doesn't appriciate all the things they do have and decided to kill themselves because they think they have it bad. Anyone who doesn't appriciate those things don't deserve to have them. And the next time one of you think about committing suicide, you remember that out there is someone without breath who would give anything to have yours.

CJ
One of the definitions of depression is that it is a condition independent of one's circumstances.

asparagus
02-06-2006, 12:26 PM
Answer: No.

I have not seen anything in scripture that would even remotely support the idea of going to hell for suicide.

I say it's very easy to once be close to God and following His Will and then fall away horribly and commit suicide.

E.g. King Saul.
He followed God, he prophesied, he did God's Will, he screwed up, he abandoned God, he commited suicide.

Personally I don't see a difference between one sin and another (except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit... another topic). Suicide is selfish, but so is lying, stealing, lusting, greed, pride and many other things.

All sin is a disobedience to God and an attempt to get by on your own.

"How do you think God would look on someone who doesn't appriciate all the things they do have and decided to kill themselves because they think they have it bad. Anyone who doesn't appriciate those things don't deserve to have them. "

Well all of us don't appreciate what we have and none of us deserve them. I think that's the whole idea behind 'Grace' that it's favour and salvation we do not deserve.


What about demonic interference? Noone has mentioned it yet. What about a person who demonically oppressed and was driven to suicide under their manipulations? Do they lose their salvation for being manipulated?Well said, well said. So many verses come to mind that overwhelmingly convince me that what Skynes says here is true.

disciple
02-06-2006, 12:57 PM
It's all easy to say "if you embrace the demon" if you know what it is.
I've learnt that most Christians have no idea what is messing with them, they're miserable and suicidal and don't know why.
Just something I want to know your thoughts on, what if they know it's just demons dragging them down, and they decide to give in anyway?


From here on out I am staying out of this conversation, because as I have already stated my belief, it's a sensitive subject for me, because I've been down there, and it wasn't a pretty place. If I had believed I would go to heaven, I would have given up many times over by now. I just have to stick by that belief for my own safety...

UntiedPanHead
02-06-2006, 01:00 PM
In any case, the state of those after death is not our business. The Lord judge. Our Christian work is to tend to the living. And to the living we say, all evidence is that a 'true' Christian will not commit suicide. And therefore contemplating suicide may be evidence that one is not truly Saved at all, and therefore still under the wrath of God. Let every soul contemplating suicide think hard on these things. Let them ask themselves why they would abandon God because of their pain. We are 'sent' with a mission and it's not over until God calls us home. It's not over when we decide we don't want to live anymore because God (supposedly) placed upon us more than we can bear (in direct contradiction to His Promise). Not at all, for He would never do that. He is our Strength, not our burden. If we have a burden we cannot bear, it's because we have not laid it down at the feet of Christ. And to be sure, how can one carrying his own burden, get into the Kingdom of Heaven?

terrasin
02-06-2006, 02:26 PM
I don't think you've EVER understood real depression, and I don't think you've EVER had someone very close to you, who was a Christian, commit suicide.

One of the definitions of depression is that it is a condition independent of one's circumstances.
Just from what you said above shows how ignorant you can be sometimes, Alex. You have no idea of the crap I've gone through in my life. I've been there, I've been down lower than even the sorry likes of you can imagine. I just choose not to display my past like a banner unlike some people. I've choosen change and to be positive and look for the good in life rather than dwell in self-pity cause a few people didn't like me. I realized that I had to get over my pity party and get over myself. And I, for one, didn't want to face the consequences of those actions. I've been through hurt and shame like nothing you could imagine. I've stood on the end of a bridge and drank myself sick. But you know what? It was stupid and selfish, and there was no excuse. And the only reason I'm still here today is because of certain people in my life and the fact that I realized that the only person who could change my circumstances was me.

Don't address me like you know anything about what I've gone through in my life, because your ignorant posts show that you're totally clueless. And don't give me some bullcrap like I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just realistic rather than trying to talk myself into some mummery to make myself feel better about a stupid decision someone made. Do me a huge favor, Alex, and shut your mouth.

CJ

zjf
02-06-2006, 03:09 PM
First and foremost, although I'm not a forum mod, I am a chatroom mod, and generally using the word "fing" is no better than saying the full word. I don't have any ability to moderate your posts, but I would like to say that that is seen as offensive by many people.

I agree with TerraSin on this one (yet again). I don't know his history, because as he said, he doesn't brag about it, but I've been there. I know now that had I committed suicide, there would have been many affected by it. It is a very selfish thing to commit suicide, as it does more than just end your life, it also affects family, friends, and many others you may not even know about. Think about it.

Spiffles
02-06-2006, 03:23 PM
I agree.. once you have excpeted Jesus as your Saviour, you can't possibly lose your salvation.. now to answer what Spiffles brought up.. thinking about that verse.. if someone was really saved, had really tasted Christ's salvation and experienced His grace.. then what could possibly make them want to leave? Once you've seen Christ's face how could you turn away?


Its quite easy to turn away from God actually.. I have seen it numbers of times before.. ive experienced it myself before... I was just lucky i had people that never gave up on me..
what makes people turn from God is basicly selfishness in whatever various form it may take.
It does happen.. all the time..


People can loose their salvation...
example.. say some dude, when he was like 10 years old or something, gives his heart to the lord... but then.. say his parents die, and he is fostered out throughout his life, and by the time hes a teenager.. he literalyl says.. screw you God, i disown you... and then lives his whole life sinning, raping, murdering, doing satanic stuff, doing drugs and everything else, and then commititng suicide.. I beleive in that example, he wont be going to heaven.. he told God to get lost, and then did everything in his life against what God wants... If you tell God to get screwed either by words, or actions or whatever.. guess what..God will leave you... God cant be around sin.. God had to leave Jesus when Jesus was on the cross with all our sins, for that reason.. God plain and simple, cant be around sin..
When we die.. we have to answer for our lives.. Christians and nonChristians.. If we are all good with God, then we will be fine with going to heaven.. if we are not, then God will say, i dont know you because you disowned me.. and we end up not in heaven..
you can all make up yuor own minds as to if suicide, which is killing Gods holly temple, is disowning God or not.. I beleive it is..



As for Pretendeavor and Alex.. there is no need to patheitc pesonal moronic comments... both of you grow up

asparagus
02-06-2006, 03:28 PM
Just from what you said above shows how ignorant you can be sometimes, Alex. You have no idea of the crap I've gone through in my life. I've been there, I've been down lower than even the sorry likes of you can imagine. I just choose not to display my past like a banner unlike some people. I've choosen change and to be positive and look for the good in life rather than dwell in self-pity cause a few people didn't like me. I realized that I had to get over my pity party and get over myself. And I, for one, didn't want to face the consequences of those actions. I've been through hurt and shame like nothing you could imagine. I've stood on the end of a bridge and drank myself sick. But you know what? It was stupid and selfish, and there was no excuse. And the only reason I'm still here today is because of certain people in my life and the fact that I realized that the only person who could change my circumstances was me.

Don't address me like you know anything about what I've gone through in my life, because your ignorant posts show that you're totally clueless. And don't give me some bullcrap like I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just realistic rather than trying to talk myself into some mummery to make myself feel better about a stupid decision someone made. Do me a huge favor, Alex, and shut your mouth.

CJI responded to some rather sweeping generalizations that you made. Like you, I also took your comments personally, but I realize that I overreacted. Apologies.

-Alex : - )

UntiedPanHead
02-06-2006, 03:41 PM
I know neither of you and it's probably none of my business BUT I really hate to see both of you upset w/ each other. It's not worth it at all!!!

skilletfreak101
02-06-2006, 06:36 PM
ok honestly...if you were a christian and your life was truly sold out to God..you would never commit suicide.

Mr. Xcitement
02-06-2006, 11:17 PM
I feel that suicide must be a sin, because think of it, if it wasn't a sin, and we all want to hurry up and get to heaven, the Christians would embrace suicide as the fastest way to heaven, and I can't for the life of me, believe that God would think that's ok.

skynes
02-07-2006, 12:34 AM
ok honestly...if you were a christian and your life was truly sold out to God..you would never commit suicide.

Sorry, I'm calling your bluff on this. I've seen people who were totally sold out to God drop into pits of despair in a heartbeat, sometimes it was their own fault, others it was not their fault.


I agree that suicide is a sin.
I agree that God does not like it.
I agree that we should strive to help people AWAY from suicide.

I disagree that it's unforgiveable.

Matt 12:31 ""Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. "

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. "

Romans 8:38-39 "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

NightCrawler
02-07-2006, 07:17 AM
Say you jump purposefully on a bomb to save your comrades? You knowingly gave up your life (kill yourself) of your own accord (suicide). No one would think that was going to send him to Hell.

John 15:
13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

NightCrawler
02-07-2006, 07:18 AM
Skynes, you are saying pretty much what I am thinking.

Mr. Xcitement
02-07-2006, 05:27 PM
Say you jump purposefully on a bomb to save your comrades? You knowingly gave up your life (kill yourself) of your own accord (suicide). No one would think that was going to send him to Hell.

John 15:
13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

That is completely different. Giving up your life so another may live is an honorable thing, and it is not suicide, but a form of protecting someone you care deeply about, where as suicide you are consirned mainly with your own feelings and don't do it to "help" anyone but yourself.

Jumping on a bomb to save someones life is very different than hanging yourself, and I would consider it possibely an unforgivable sin, because you make the ultimate choice that you have decided when your life ends, not God, and thus have refused to follow his path.

morgojw
02-07-2006, 07:48 PM
That is completely different. Giving up your life so another may live is an honorable thing, and it is not suicide, but a form of protecting someone you care deeply about, where as suicide you are consirned mainly with your own feelings and don't do it to "help" anyone but yourself.

Jumping on a bomb to save someones life is very different than hanging yourself, and I would consider it possibely an unforgivable sin, because you make the ultimate choice that you have decided when your life ends, not God, and thus have refused to follow his path.

I agree completely

amodman
02-07-2006, 07:52 PM
That is completely different. Giving up your life so another may live is an honorable thing, and it is not suicide, but a form of protecting someone you care deeply about, where as suicide you are consirned mainly with your own feelings and don't do it to "help" anyone but yourself.

Jumping on a bomb to save someones life is very different than hanging yourself, and I would consider it possibely an unforgivable sin, because you make the ultimate choice that you have decided when your life ends, not God, and thus have refused to follow his path.

A poor argument for suicide overall, I agree. However, it clearly gives us an example of where the Bible goes so far as encouraging suicide. It shows that killing yourself, under certain circumstances, is not only forgivable, but laudable. This is not the general rule, to be sure, but it just further asks the question - what, exactly, are the details of the situation, or, suicide?

newday_7
02-07-2006, 09:00 PM
okay, here's another way to think about it, a sin is a sin is a sin right? so suicide is a sin just like lieing or stealing or having a lustful thought is, well you must be able to be forgiven for it and go to heaven cause everyone sins even the most Godly people sin, and everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Anyways so say you're walking down the street and you're right with God and it's all going well and you see a hot girl (or guy) and have a lustful thought, and then get hit by a car and die instantly. well would God send you to hell because you didn't ask for forgivness before you died? you didn't have a chance did you? it's the same with people commiting suicide, they just commited a sin like all the rest of us do and died before they could ask for forgiveness. Does that mean a loving God that they have followed all their life would reject them? Think about who our God is, would He do that?

skilletgirl
02-07-2006, 09:14 PM
Its really one of those questions that can go either way. I used to think it was 100% to hell.. but now I think some situations are possiblely... not that way

PinkGoo
02-07-2006, 09:14 PM
okay, here's another way to think about it, a sin is a sin is a sin right? so suicide is a sin just like lieing or stealing or having a lustful thought is, well you must be able to be forgiven for it and go to heaven cause everyone sins even the most Godly people sin, and everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Anyways so say you're walking down the street and you're right with God and it's all going well and you see a hot girl (or guy) and have a lustful thought, and then get hit by a car and die instantly. well would God send you to hell because you didn't ask for forgivness before you died? you didn't have a chance did you? it's the same with people commiting suicide, they just commited a sin like all the rest of us do and died before they could ask for forgiveness. Does that mean a loving God that they have followed all their life would reject them? Think about who our God is, would He do that?

But suicide is PLANNED. It's different than getting hit by a car in a freak accident.

Spiffles
02-07-2006, 11:01 PM
A poor argument for suicide overall, I agree. However, it clearly gives us an example of where the Bible goes so far as encouraging suicide. It shows that killing yourself, under certain circumstances, is not only forgivable, but laudable. This is not the general rule, to be sure, but it just further asks the question - what, exactly, are the details of the situation, or, suicide?

That i wouldnt call suicide at all.. i'd call it sacrifice, which i view as completely different. Suicide = selfish, sacrife = unselfish

skynes
02-08-2006, 12:43 AM
What does scripture say on the matter? What does scripture say about unforgivable sins? What does scripture say about forgiveness and grace?

Answer those Three questions and you have the answer to this thread.

NightCrawler
02-08-2006, 05:53 AM
That is completely different. Giving up your life so another may live is an honorable thing, and it is not suicide, but a form of protecting someone you care deeply about, where as suicide you are consirned mainly with your own feelings and don't do it to "help" anyone but yourself.

Jumping on a bomb to save someones life is very different than hanging yourself, and I would consider it possibely an unforgivable sin, because you make the ultimate choice that you have decided when your life ends, not God, and thus have refused to follow his path.So, killing yourself is sinful relative to the situation. That I would agree with. But does this sin create a barrier that Christ does not cover?
What does scripture say on the matter? What does scripture say about unforgivable sins? What does scripture say about forgiveness and grace?

Answer those Three questions and you have the answer to this thread.Amen.

newday_7
02-08-2006, 09:26 PM
But suicide is PLANNED. It's different than getting hit by a car in a freak accident.
my point was that you don't have to have asked forgiveness for every sin before you die or else you won't go to able to go to heaven. Suicide isn't different than any other sin, and instead of looking in our own heads for the answer, why not go to the bible. Does it say anywhere in the bible that suicide send you staright to hell? I know that someone posting in this thread (i forget who) has already given verses pointing out that suicide can be forgiven.

skynes
02-09-2006, 12:30 AM
That would probably be me.

http://www.panheads.org/boards/showpost.php?p=240937&postcount=34

aliengurl7
02-09-2006, 05:24 AM
Killing yourself goes against the comandment "Thou shalt not kill." If you take your life how is any different from taking somebody else's life and why would the punishment be different for breaking that commandment?

OTD
02-09-2006, 06:01 AM
it isn't different from any other sin, but it is also covered under the blood of Christ, like EVERY other sin. The punishment is not loss of salvation, personally, I feel the cost of our sin will be in our proximity to the Christ after resurrection.

aliengurl7
02-09-2006, 06:03 AM
How can you repent of suicide?

skynes
02-09-2006, 06:06 AM
How can you repent of suicide?

Which begs the question:

Do you need to repent of every tiny little sin and make amends for it to be saved? Or do you just trust Christ?

asparagus
02-09-2006, 06:42 AM
Which begs the question:

Do you need to repent of every tiny little sin and make amends for it to be saved? Or do you just trust Christ?
Well said.
Romans 4:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Romans 10.11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)

OTD
02-09-2006, 07:04 AM
Which begs the question:

Do you need to repent of every tiny little sin and make amends for it to be saved? Or do you just trust Christ?exactly my point. we'd have to be put in a coma in order to never sin after we've been saved.

audiocarbomb
02-09-2006, 06:48 PM
"For i am persuaded, that neither death nor life nor angels nor pricipalities nor powers, nor height nor deapth, nor any other creature shall be able ot separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord..."

Or something to that effect. I can't remember the reference, but that's how it goes. The Bible says that Christ forgives us of ALL sin...you can assume that implies future sins as well. Suicide is murder, and thus is sin. Sin is something that is in God's power to forgive.

This thread ought to include "Eternal Security?" in it's title because that seems to be where this topic is going.

Edit: when discussing this topic, try to be as forthcoming and understanding as you can be...some of the people on these boards have diffent opinions than you or I do, and the only truth that exists in this discussion is the Bible...so use it. Back up your statements with scripture, because you will accomplish nothing if you just made up something that sounds intelligent...

amodman
02-09-2006, 07:06 PM
Why is this thread still going? Lol. As far as I'm concerned, the same point has already been effectively made over and over again concerning suicide...the comments made to the effect of "How could suicide be forgiven?" Need only to look back in thread, not have the same argument and reasoning told them again.

aliengurl7
02-09-2006, 07:32 PM
Which begs the question:

Do you need to repent of every tiny little sin and make amends for it to be saved? Or do you just trust Christ?
Yes,I think you do. Thats the whole point of being christian is asking for forgiveness and trusting Christ.I don't agree thats it is forgiveable to kill yourself because you didn't trust or have faith in Christ. Its not a "tiny" sin its murder and thats all that I have to say.Im outta here.

petrameansrock
02-09-2006, 07:52 PM
Repenting of every tiny little sin is what the Israelites had to do with the sacrificial offerings of the animals. We trust Christ, so that all our infractions and transgressions dont have to be individually accounted for and repented for, because all your sins, past, present, and future are already paid for. That includes suicide, murder, even rape, but only if you TRULY believe in Jesus, just saying it wont do.

aliengurl7
02-09-2006, 08:03 PM
Who believes in Christ and yet continues to live a sinful life without repenting?

"That includes suicide, murder, even rape, but only if you TRULY believe in Jesus, just saying it wont do."

So you can't be forgiven for rape until you do it?

What kinda christian thinks that he can potentially murder or rape somebody in the future?

petrameansrock
02-09-2006, 08:15 PM
Well, I was actually referring to past sins. Anyone can be redeemed. And even after one is saved, some people have "lapses" in the spirit. No true Christian uses his faith to justify sin, but sin, even murder, etc. does happen even to Christians. Christians get angry too.

aliengurl7
02-09-2006, 08:29 PM
Killing in the name of God? Like the christians who bomb abortion clinics?

unshakeable15
02-09-2006, 09:29 PM
look at it this way: Christ died approximately 33 AD (a little later, 'cause he wasn't born in year 1. the guy who figured it out got it wrong, but that's a side topic). so Christ died about 2000 years ago. say you got saved in '95. that's still nearly 2000 years after the death of the Savior. if you can be forgiven for sins you committed before 1995 (which was still after 33 AD), why can't you be forgiven for sins committed after 1995? 2000 years vs. 2015 isn't much difference.

the reasons Christians are told to repent and ask forgiveness (which go hand in hand) is because they interfere with our relationship with God. every sin you commit adds a brick to the wall. each brick makes the wall a little higher, harder to see over. when you repent and ask forgiveness, God tears down the wall between you and him and heals you; not the kind that made your heart "white as snow" but the kind that helps you say no the next time that sin waltzes up.

pizza brain
02-09-2006, 09:44 PM
Pual writes about strugling with sin as a chistain. He says something kind of like this I do the evil I don't want to do.

skynes
02-10-2006, 12:58 AM
Yes,I think you do. Thats the whole point of being christian is asking for forgiveness and trusting Christ.I don't agree thats it is forgiveable to kill yourself because you didn't trust or have faith in Christ. Its not a "tiny" sin its murder and thats all that I have to say.Im outta here.


No... the whole point of being a Christian is that the responsibility for sin is not on our shoulders any more.
For the Jews, they lived lives of constant repentance, always sacrficing, always repenting, always trying to EARN salvation.

We do not earn salvation. Christ gave us salvation freely, no cost to us, great cost to Him. Christ's blood is enough for any sin, He said so Himself.



Aliengurl I'm sorry if I've never made this clear enough here, but to me, Scripture is the first and final authority.

Scripture says all sins can be forgiven, and it came right out of Jesus' mouth. Now as far as I'm concerned after reading that, it applies to every sin thats exists now and will exist in the future, with ZERO exceptions. That includes suicide.

Now I have scripture to support my argument, as I have shown multiple times in this thread, Do you have any to support yours?

=================

Pizza Brain - What you're referring to is Romans 7. In it, Paul says that our flesh will still bother us for our entire lives, regardless of what we do.
He wants to do good, but doesn't do it.
He doesn't want to do evil, but does it.

aliengurl7
02-10-2006, 08:13 AM
No... the whole point of being a Christian is that the responsibility for sin is not on our shoulders any more.
For the Jews, they lived lives of constant repentance, always sacrficing, always repenting, always trying to EARN salvation.

We do not earn salvation. Christ gave us salvation freely, no cost to us, great cost to Him. Christ's blood is enough for any sin, He said so Himself.



Aliengurl I'm sorry if I've never made this clear enough here, but to me, Scripture is the first and final authority.

Scripture says all sins can be forgiven, and it came right out of Jesus' mouth. Now as far as I'm concerned after reading that, it applies to every sin thats exists now and will exist in the future, with ZERO exceptions. That includes suicide.

Now I have scripture to support my argument, as I have shown multiple times in this thread, Do you have any to support yours?





I did use scripture "thou shall not murder"so my arguement is backed by a verse and consider this verse,
“For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death”(2 Cor. 7:10).
The sorrow of the world overwhelms people because there is no way out, no hope: unless one turns to Christ in true repentance. He is our hope.
Jesus said if we lose our life for his sake then we will find it. It is better to have lost one's life for faith in Christ and gain eternal life than to lose it for selfish reasons. Rom. 8:17: “and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.”

disciple
02-10-2006, 01:55 PM
Actually, today God moved me to write a poem which changedm y opinion on the matter (rarely has God moved as such to tell me something). I now believe that, as with many other things, the situation itself is what matters.

NightCrawler
02-10-2006, 05:59 PM
No... the whole point of being a Christian is that the responsibility for sin is not on our shoulders any more.No, the point is to have a relationship with God (through Jesus Christ). ;)

Which in turn (through faith) seals us and declares us righteous.

Tell me, if you commit suicide even though your best friend told you not to, would you cease to be his friend in making the decision?

Similarly, if you sin against God (and don't have it repented) then die (suicide or otherwise)... are you and God just gonna call it off?


Romans 3

"19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28002i)] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith."

-----------

Seriously, because we follow the laws or not is NOT how we get to heaven. It doesn't matter if one sins or not -- in actually it is because one DOES sin that we need Christ.


So, does your faith save you or your works? Because the fact that you DON'T commit murder doesn't make you good.

Mr. Xcitement
02-11-2006, 08:06 AM
I have such a hard time believing that, you're saying that even though we have a set of laws to go by, even if we decide not to, we still get to Heaven? I know God is all forgiving, but if you turn your back on God by commiting suicide, then I don't think you should go to Heaven, like I have said before, if you go to Heaven after comiting suicide, then why not embrace it? We all want to go to Heaven as soon as we can and can't wait to go there, so why not speed it up? Well I for one, feel that, that is not what God wants, because then you are turning your back on God, Jesus, the people you love, and your beliefs, and at that moment when you commit suicide, I believe you would be an atheist, since you have turned your back on all you loved, and that loved you.

NightCrawler
02-11-2006, 10:07 AM
I have such a hard time believing that, you're saying that even though we have a set of laws to go by, even if we decide not to, we still get to Heaven?Yes.

I know God is all forgiving, but if you turn your back on God by commiting suicide,You are assuming that you are turning your back on God, and that you can lose salvation.
First assumption, give verses for that.
Second, different thread.

I [...] then I don't think you should go to Heaven, like I have said before, if you go to Heaven after comiting suicide, then why not embrace it?IF it was the case that your first two assumptions were right, then this would follow. /\

We all want to go to Heaven as soon as we can and can't wait to go there, so why not speed it up?Because that doesn't get other people there too.

Well I for one, feel that, that is not what God wants, because then you are turning your back on God, Jesus, the people you love, and your beliefs, and at that moment when you commit suicide, I believe you would be an atheist, since you have turned your back on all you loved, and that loved you.I don't.

asparagus
02-11-2006, 11:45 AM
Well I for one, feel that, that is not what God wants, because then you are turning your back on God, Jesus, the people you love, and your beliefs, and at that moment when you commit suicide, I believe you would be an atheist, since you have turned your back on all you loved, and that loved you.I think this can be said about any sin.

unshakeable15
02-11-2006, 02:52 PM
remember Mr. X, your deeds are meaningless in getting you to Heaven ("deeds" meaning what you do or don't do). however! they do prove your faith*.





*check out James 2.14-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26;&version=31;)

Mr. Xcitement
02-11-2006, 05:32 PM
Please explain to me then, how comiting suicide is not turning your back on God and your faith? Comiting suicide is probably one of the most selfish things you could do, and thus you would be completely thinking of yourself and not anyone else.

404not_found
02-11-2006, 06:11 PM
It could be a spur of the moment type thing. I mean, where you aren't even really thinking about what you are doing and just do it. Thats usually how most sins happen. You get caught up in the moment and it causes you to stumble. If you are extreamly upset, and you just arent really thinking, things happen. You arent exactly turning your back on God or your faith. Same way you arent turning your back on God going to a wild party, getting caught up in the moment and then getting drunk or doing something stupid. You still messed and could have chose not do to whatever but I think we can all agree that stupid desicion makings are not out of Gods grace.

Same thing. There are few times where if I actually had a gun sitting next to me at the time, I'm sure I would have picked it up and pulled the trigger. Its when I start thinking that actually makes me change my mind. Now, if you are absolutly calm about the whole thing and everything, I don't know. Would a Christian kill someone in cold blood? This would be simliar so I think there salvation would be in question if this was the case.

But most suicides are a moment thing. There is only a small window where they are so emotionaly upset where they'd actually do anything. If you can somehow talk them down, or keep them from doing it while they're going through this phase, they'll start thinking and are much less likely to do anything. Of course, something could trigger their emotions and they'll fall right back into this state. But again, they arent exactly turning their back on God... they just become so emotionaly upset that they stop thinking correctly cause they are too blinded by their current struggle.

So I do not think you would go to Hell for suicide. It's really just like every other sin I think. Its a stupid move on you're part but I dont think Jesus will abandon you because of this one. Albeit, I am not going to test this... there is still that .1% of doubt and eternal life with God is worth a life full of struggles over a crappy life you cut short and eternal seperation from God.

BTW, just curious, where do people get this idea? I've browesed alot of message befores and many people who are not Christians (and some Christians) have this idea that the bible specifically says suicide is an unforgivable sin. Is this more of a Catholic thing? Just curious.

asparagus
02-11-2006, 06:23 PM
Please explain to me then, how comiting suicide is not turning your back on God and your faith? Comiting suicide is probably one of the most selfish things you could do, and thus you would be completely thinking of yourself and not anyone else.In my experience with suicide and from people who suffer from severe depression, the motivation for suicide often comes from a belief that you are actually doing the world a favor. In their own eyes, in that moment, it is quite easy for them to believe that they are doing the world a favor.

We all do incredibly selfish things all the time without realizing how selfish they are. I think if we fully knew and never forgot how harmful sin was, then we wouldn't sin.

If you don't suffer from serious depression, or haven't lived with someone who has, then to truly understand how messed up their conscious thinking is, is quite difficult. Like an alzheimer's patient, they can be quite healthy one day, and be quite a different person the next. I am convinced someone who commits suicide no more turns their back on God than an alzheimer's patient who forgets the crucifixion.

Humbly submitted,
Alex

asparagus
02-11-2006, 06:28 PM
Killing yourself goes against the comandment "Thou shalt not kill." If you take your life how is any different from taking somebody else's life and why would the punishment be different for breaking that commandment?David was forgiven. Why wouldn't someone else be?


2 Samuel 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=12&version=31)

sky_flashings
02-11-2006, 06:58 PM
To me, commiting suicide is basically telling God that you don't believe that He can get you out of the bad times. And if you came to Him and gave Him your life, and at the end of it tell Him that, I don't believe your faith was where it should have been, and that because you doubted at a point in your life where you should have trusted Him the most, shows that your faith was not the kind that leads to heaven.
I reiterate my statement. "God, I love you and I've given you my life with complete trust that you know what's best for me, however, I don't believe that you can help me through this troubled time or do anything to change it, so I'm going to take my life so I don't have to deal with it."

asparagus
02-11-2006, 07:15 PM
I reiterate my statement. "God, I love you and I've given you my life with complete trust that you know what's best for me, however, I don't believe that you can help me through this troubled time or do anything to change it, so I'm going to take my life so I don't have to deal with it."
I would politely but strongly disagree with this notion which includes one of the greatest myths of suicide: that suicide is primarily situational. It is not situations that cause suicides, but rather triggers, which is a fine but significant line.

Treating depression and suicidal thoughts is very similar to the way you treat anyone struggling with any addiction. You try to get them to recognize and avoid triggers, you get them involved in a counseling or support group, you get them to admit that they have a problem.

Spiffles
02-11-2006, 10:20 PM
I would politely but strongly disagree with this notion which includes one of the greatest myths of suicide: that suicide is primarily situational. It is not situations that cause suicides, but rather triggers, which is a fine but significant line.

Treating depression and suicidal thoughts is very similar to the way you treat anyone struggling with any addiction. You try to get them to recognize and avoid triggers, you get them involved in a counseling or support group, you get them to admit that they have a problem.

I disagree with that..
From personal experience plus a number of close friends, and family experiences ive been invlovled in as well has shown, that counseling and support groups do nothing but make things worse. what they need is one or two close friends/family supporting them, encouraging them and lifting them up, support groups, while good intended, make an uncomfortable presence which is the worst thing for a depressed person.

As for the triggers thing.. i disagree for the fact that if the situation or circumstance was different there wouldnt even be triggers. deal with what is causeing the triggers, not deal with the triggers. if you dealt with the triggers, the underlying problem is still there, deal with what is causeing it, then they wont be back.

NightCrawler
02-11-2006, 10:38 PM
What about elderly?

They have a VERY high attempt rate (and success rate). They are old, so... when they want to get it over with... the go to Hell, no matter what.

Is that what this notion means?

Mr. Xcitement
02-12-2006, 12:06 AM
In my experience with suicide and from people who suffer from severe depression, the motivation for suicide often comes from a belief that you are actually doing the world a favor. In their own eyes, in that moment, it is quite easy for them to believe that they are doing the world a favor.

We all do incredibly selfish things all the time without realizing how selfish they are. I think if we fully knew and never forgot how harmful sin was, then we wouldn't sin.

If you don't suffer from serious depression, or haven't lived with someone who has, then to truly understand how messed up their conscious thinking is, is quite difficult. Like an alzheimer's patient, they can be quite healthy one day, and be quite a different person the next. I am convinced someone who commits suicide no more turns their back on God than an alzheimer's patient who forgets the crucifixion.

Humbly submitted,
Alex

Well I know this isn't what you meant to do, but I myself spent years and years in depression, about 7 years to be exact and for some reason I barely remember any of those years, but your message helps me remember, how even though in those 7 years I was suicidal I also prayed to God at the same time to save me from all the pain, walking the fine line between grace and sin...I will have to sit back, pray and think a lot about this now.

(Do not feel bad you made me remember this, I have been trying hard to remember, so that I may possibely help others with their problems some day)

aliengurl7
02-12-2006, 02:43 PM
David was forgiven. Why wouldn't someone else be?


2 Samuel 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=12&version=31)
David had the opportunity to repent. Someone who takes their own life doesn't.

404not_found
02-12-2006, 04:32 PM
Well hopefully I wont die in a car crash or something so I can have time to repent of my sins just before I die... unless somehow before I got in the car I just repented and managed not to think one wrong thought before the accident.

PinkGoo
02-12-2006, 04:36 PM
Well hopefully I wont die in a car crash or something so I can have time to repent of my sins just before I die... unless somehow before I got in the car I just repented and managed not to think one wrong thought before the accident.

Quoted for truth. What more is there to say? This thread is getting repetative.

aliengurl7
02-12-2006, 04:42 PM
Well hopefully I wont die in a car crash or something so I can have time to repent of my sins just before I die... unless somehow before I got in the car I just repented and managed not to think one wrong thought before the accident.

Thinking you can't help. Actions you can, if you walk with Christ you shouldn't be sweating a car accident. Its all good, unless your doing something you shouldn't be that causes the car accident.

PinkGoo
02-12-2006, 04:47 PM
So what's the difference, Michelle?

aliengurl7
02-12-2006, 04:48 PM
between what? premeditated suicide and accidental death?

PinkGoo
02-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Yes, I mean, I see the point you are trying to make... that suicide is planned out and thought about before-hand, but still... isn't it all the same to God?
Sin is sin, you know.

amodman
02-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Thinking you can't help. Actions you can, if you walk with Christ you shouldn't be sweating a car accident. Its all good, unless your doing something you shouldn't be that causes the car accident.

What? Hun, I think you need a serious wake up call if you think bad things to happen to Christ's followers. Even random bad things, like car accidents...

aliengurl7
02-12-2006, 04:52 PM
If you and I can see the difference. Why wouldn't God be able to, ya know?

aliengurl7
02-12-2006, 04:54 PM
What? Hun, I think you need a serious wake up call if you think bad things to happen to Christ's followers. Even random bad things, like car accidents...
Are you kidding me?

PinkGoo
02-12-2006, 05:01 PM
If you and I can see the difference. Why wouldn't God be able to, ya know?
This has already been said... All sin is equal in God's eyes.

aliengurl7
02-12-2006, 05:04 PM
Where in the bible does it say "all sin is the same in his eyes"?
mat:23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
I think God does measure sin by severity.Sin is sin.Just like pain is pain but there are different degrees of it.

404not_found
02-12-2006, 06:13 PM
1 "You shall have no other gods before me.

2 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

3 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

4 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

5 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

6 "You shall not murder.

7 "You shall not commit adultery.

8 "You shall not steal.

9 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

10 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Well thats the 10 commandments. If you break any of those, you are in need of a Savior. Just about everyone has commited just about everything on there. Murder isnt even on the top of the list and God conciders hate for another murder in your heart. If we are saved, then Jesus has taken our sins and washed them away. By your reasoning, if anyone does any of these on list, they are again in need of Salvation. The first time was basically useless. For me, instead of a born again, I would be like... a born again again again again etc. I think it is important to ask for forgiveness and stuff when you realise youve done wrong but I dont think Jesus will abandon you every time you sin. Nor do I think he'll send you to hell just because you were angry at your parents for some reason and drive off and get killed in a car crash.

pizza brain
02-12-2006, 07:41 PM
Many suicids are caused by clinical depression a medical condition in wich a person (depending on level of severity) is (at times) all but incapable of clear thought without outside help many of you have used rational thinking to say suicide is wrong alot of these people (at least in my experience) are not capable of it with out outside help.
Now about this whole it's turnig your back on God and denying your faith bit. it's no more that than any other sin and these people are not thinking about that (my experience) if any thing they are thinking about going to be with Him after they die I know I was.

aliengurl7
02-12-2006, 08:05 PM
Many suicids are caused by clinical depression a medical condition in wich a person (depending on level of severity) is (at times) all but incapable of clear thought without outside help many of you have used rational thinking to say suicide is wrong alot of these people (at least in my experience) are not capable of it with out outside help.
Now about this whole it's turnig your back on God and denying your faith bit. it's no more that than any other sin and these people are not thinking about that (my experience) if any thing they are thinking about going to be with Him after they die I know I was.

No, I think we've all been there to one degree or another and i know most people aren't thinking about being with Jesus. If they were thinking about being with Jesus they'd be happy not depressed. They are focusing on themselves,im sorry but its true in most cases and there's medicine and sertonin boosters and stuff like that to help.God does make an escape and its not suicide.

newday_7
02-12-2006, 10:02 PM
God makes and escape for every sin, yet we still sin. I wanna ask some thing but please don't take offence. Do you know who God is? Really, if you spend time with Him and get to know Him, read the bible. I don't see Jesus as the kind of person who will abandon you or will forsake you just cause you killed yourself. Really it's just not Him. He died for you, i say He fight and die again for you when you are being judged after commiting suicide. I'm sure He'd be saying that you where already bought with His blood and all your sins were payed for so you are His and He wants you with Him.

skynes
02-13-2006, 01:04 AM
I did use scripture "thou shall not murder"so my arguement is backed by a verse and consider this verse,
“For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death”(2 Cor. 7:10).
The sorrow of the world overwhelms people because there is no way out, no hope: unless one turns to Christ in true repentance. He is our hope.
Jesus said if we lose our life for his sake then we will find it. It is better to have lost one's life for faith in Christ and gain eternal life than to lose it for selfish reasons. Rom. 8:17: “and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.”

And? I've already provided a rock-solid scripture saying that all sins can be forgiven.

Matt 12:31 ""Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. "

Mark 3:28 ""Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; "

There's two. They both say ALL sins can be forgiven.

Forgive my rashness, but who are any of you to say what God will and will not forgive when His own Son says that all can be forgiven?
Why should suicide not be included in that? Is this not the absolute answer to this thread? If God incarnate turns around and says that all sins can be forgiven does this mean:

All sins can be forgiven... except suicide

Well no it doesn't... It means:

All sins can be forgiven... INCLUDING suicide
==================

Aliengurl, please do some research into Biblical Grace. I think you'll find it really interesting.

NightCrawler
02-13-2006, 07:29 AM
Sorry to single you out, Michelle.

as~i~lay~dying
02-13-2006, 07:32 AM
Awesome verses skynes!! I think what you said noone can really agrue with. I mean it's hardcore truth from the bible!

NightCrawler
02-13-2006, 07:36 AM
Okay... So, assuming you could be a Christian and 'can' commit suicide...

What about the first covenant (prechrist, ya know)? You sin, you must be atoned. Sacrifice, purification, ritual.

Sheol be your home?

skynes
02-13-2006, 07:43 AM
Okay... So, assuming you could be a Christian and 'can' commit suicide...

What about the first covenant (prechrist, ya know)? You sin, you must be atoned. Sacrifice, purification, ritual.

Sheol be your home?

Wasn't Christ the sacrifice?

NightCrawler
02-13-2006, 07:49 AM
Before Christ was sacrified.

skynes
02-13-2006, 07:52 AM
You mean what happened to the OT lot if they commited suicide?

NightCrawler
02-13-2006, 07:57 AM
Yes, OT. As I meant by prechrist and before Christ. The first covenent and how they had to be atoned with a sacrifice when they sinned.

;)

(and using the hebrew equivalent for our understanding of Hell... Sheol)

skynes
02-13-2006, 08:00 AM
Mmmmm...

Firstly, since God still wanted Faith and sitll accredited Faith as righteousness, on one side I'd say exactly the same thing happens as now.
Since why they were saved is that they were hoping for a future Messiah, Christ's sacrifice affected the past as well as the future.

So the same thing would apply.

Just a guess though.

asparagus
02-13-2006, 11:27 AM
Mmmmm...

Firstly, since God still wanted Faith and still accredited Faith as righteousness, on one side I'd say exactly the same thing happens as now.
Absolutely. Gen. 15:6.

Spiffles
02-13-2006, 11:34 AM
Matt 12:31 ""Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. "




Just wondering what you lot consider blasphemy against the spirit or how you define it as something else other then a sin (if you define it that way.... i dont want to assume how anyone defines anything :P )

aliengurl7
02-13-2006, 11:41 AM
And? I've already provided a rock-solid scripture saying that all sins can be forgiven.

Matt 12:31 ""Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. "

Mark 3:28 ""Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; "

There's two. They both say ALL sins can be forgiven.

Forgive my rashness, but who are any of you to say what God will and will not forgive when His own Son says that all can be forgiven?
Why should suicide not be included in that? Is this not the absolute answer to this thread? If God incarnate turns around and says that all sins can be forgiven does this mean:

All sins can be forgiven... except suicide

Well no it doesn't... It means:

All sins can be forgiven... INCLUDING suicide
==================

Aliengurl, please do some research into Biblical Grace. I think you'll find it really interesting.

Its not a question of forgiving all sin, which I know he does except for the unforgivable sin.
Its a question of whether or not a person who commits suicide,who is guilty of murder when doing so... has the chance to repent and accept his forgiveness. Sincere repentance does not include intentionally murdering yourself.

asparagus
02-13-2006, 11:48 AM
David had the opportunity to repent. Someone who takes their own life doesn't.I don't have a good enough memory to repent of every sin. What about my friends who were too drunk to remember what sins they should repent of? But I digress...

Think about it another way. In Hosea, our relationship with God is compared to a marriage relationship and in malachi, God says he hates divorce. In the New Testament, we are called the bride of Christ.

So, here is my question to you. When a spouse sins against another spouse, does that end the relationship? By no means! Of course it hurts the fellowship of the relationship, and this is where repentence comes in. But whether or not your spouse comes to you in repentence does not negate the other spouses' duty to forgive. We don't divorce and remmarry at every unconfessed sin, and our love is conditional! Imagine how much more this is true with God's unconditional love. Praise God!

Sin does not break our relationship with God. It does not have that power . It does, however, naturally damage our fellowship with God, which repentance repairs.

God gives us another anology of our relationship with him. In Romans 8:15 it says: 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

You, aliengurl, are a daughter of someone. Is there any way for you to no longer be called you father's daughter?

Later, in that same Chapter, Paul writes:
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

8For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Can it be any clearer? I mean, wasn't he writing this to try to cover everything? I think, if there was something that could seperate us from God, like suicide, Paul would have been SURE to mention it, and then re-ephasize it, as he did everything that was important.

From Genesis, to Hosea, to Malachi, to Romans to Galatians, the story is about the power of righteousness through faith, not acts (like making sure we confess absolutely everything to God).

My two questions to you is this: Have you recieved salvation by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

aliengurl7
02-13-2006, 12:17 PM
What does repentance mean? and is there forgiveness of sins without repentance?

"Have you recieved salvation by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?"
I recieved salvation through Jesus Christ by repenting of my sins and putting my faith in Him.

"After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"

No, I let the holy spirit guide me because my works are filthy rags and attain nothing apart from Jesus Christ.

"When a spouse sins against another spouse, does that end the relationship?"

God allows the relationship to end due to adultery.

asparagus
02-13-2006, 02:10 PM
God allows the relationship to end due to adultery.
Adultery does not end a marriage. It damages it, but it does not end a marriage. And as seen in Hosea, despite repeated adultery, the relationship goes on.

Spiffles
02-13-2006, 02:18 PM
what she was getting at is that, God considers it ok to end a marriage because of adultury

amodman
02-13-2006, 02:28 PM
what she was getting at is that, God considers it ok to end a marriage because of adultury

No he doesn't...lol. That's a radical statement that desperately needs some evidence...which doesn't exist. MArriage is binding. Any termination of it in life is considered sin. Not un-forgivable sin, but sin. God doesn't like it, but he accepts it.

Spiffles
02-13-2006, 02:35 PM
*shrugs* i was just correcting a mis interpreted comment

skilletfreak101
02-13-2006, 02:51 PM
no but seriously...if you are ultimately sold out to God, there's no way you're going to commit suicide...if someone you know who commited suicide who seemed like one of the most sincere christians, there must've been something going on in their lives that made them want to do that. you can't tell who a person is on their outside.

disciple
02-13-2006, 02:55 PM
No he doesn't...lol.
I get what you're saying, but I think that idea she said was spurned from


"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." ~Matthew 5:31-32


right?

aliengurl7
02-13-2006, 03:00 PM
Yep, thats the one.:)

asparagus
02-13-2006, 06:18 PM
So anyway, I sin against my spouse all the time. Sometimes I don't realize it or remember it and I end up not confessing it to her or repenting of it. That hardly means Sierra has plans to divorce me. It just means she's a great woman.

Spiffles
02-13-2006, 09:28 PM
yeh, but if for example. i had a wife (that why its an example, cause i dont), and she decided to cheat on me, and run off with some other guy, and i divorce her because of that... then what i am being told here is i am still sinning by divorcing her... which in my hunble oppinion is a complete load of crap.. i'm not sinning because i ended something because of someone elses unfaithfulness

amodman
02-13-2006, 10:59 PM
yeh, but if for example. i had a wife (that why its an example, cause i dont), and she decided to cheat on me, and run off with some other guy, and i divorce her because of that... then what i am being told here is i am still sinning by divorcing her... which in my hunble oppinion is a complete load of crap.. i'm not sinning because i ended something because of someone elses unfaithfulness

Just like if on a business contract your partner is not holding up his end of the bargain you have complete license to be as shady as you want! Or, if someone steals from you, you can then steal right back from them. It's only fair, right? (wrong)

Your wife (in the example) = unfaithfulness. Is divorce right? No. What would be right would be for her to repent of her sin and come back. Unfortunately, these double contract things called marriage often require two ends to be held up (Though, while I can understand how this happens, if you didn't trust a person in the first place, why did you marry them?). Like I said, God doesn't like divorce, but he accepts it.

As far as the verse is concerned, it refers to your wife (assuming you are the man, here - flip this if you're not, lol). Okay, you divorce her because she is committing adultery. YOU, as the divorcer, have sinned, but, you have only sinned against yourself. Now, you divorce your wife for any reasons other than adultery. YOU, the divorcer, have sinned against both yourself and your wife. Don't like it? Tough. You swore, before God and in his name have you, that you would stay with her forever no matter what. As pretty much one of my favorite quotes says -

"But the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair." - Relient K, Be My Escape.

^ We deserve worse ya know...

skynes
02-14-2006, 12:56 AM
Its not a question of forgiving all sin, which I know he does except for the unforgivable sin.
Its a question of whether or not a person who commits suicide,who is guilty of murder when doing so... has the chance to repent and accept his forgiveness. Sincere repentance does not include intentionally murdering yourself.

Firstly may I point out that calling Suicide murder is a theory, it doesn't have any solid foundation in scripture, you are assuming it is murder.

Murder - www.dictionary.com
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Suicide - www.dictionary.com
1. The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.

The dictionary shows a difference between the two.

Secondly if you just admitted that all sins can be forgiven, what difference does the repentance make? If all sins can be forgive, including suicide, then it would be forgiven regardless of the repentance.

To live a life of continual repentance is to live a life of FEAR. If we need to repent continually then Christ's death accomplished nothing, we are still in our sins and we still need a Saviour! Christ died for sin once and for all, not a continual repeated death everytime we screw up, He died once to cover all our sins permanently.

John 10:28-29

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

I see this as a promise. Those who Christ has given eternal life (us) shall never perish and NOONE is able to take them from God' hand, Noone includes the individual in question.

NightCrawler
02-14-2006, 07:55 AM
Stance:
You don't need to ask forgiveness and repent of every sin, it is impossible. You sin because you are a sinner, not a sinner because you sin. When you have faith, it is accredited as righteousness, you are made RIGHTEOUS -- your sin is made irrelevant to the fact that you have a relationship with God. So, if you sin and are declared righteous by your faith (regardless if you have repented or not) wouldn't you NOT go to Hell? You are still God's child, declared into His presence.

Michelle, again sorry for singling you out, do you disagree with this?

aliengurl7
02-14-2006, 04:55 PM
1jn1:19 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us. Obviously, he is speaking of all sins and telling us to confess to him and ask for forgiveness. Tell me how somebody who committs suicide can do this? So no I don't agree with what your saying.

aliengurl7
02-14-2006, 05:08 PM
Firstly may I point out that calling Suicide murder is a theory, it doesn't have any solid foundation in scripture, you are assuming it is murder.

Murder - www.dictionary.com
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Suicide - www.dictionary.com
1. The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.

The dictionary shows a difference between the two.

Secondly if you just admitted that all sins can be forgiven, what difference does the repentance make? If all sins can be forgive, including suicide, then it would be forgiven regardless of the repentance.

To live a life of continual repentance is to live a life of FEAR. If we need to repent continually then Christ's death accomplished nothing, we are still in our sins and we still need a Saviour! Christ died for sin once and for all, not a continual repeated death everytime we screw up, He died once to cover all our sins permanently.

John 10:28-29

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

I see this as a promise. Those who Christ has given eternal life (us) shall never perish and NOONE is able to take them from God' hand, Noone includes the individual in question.



Well, anybody who commits suicide is taking a life regardless of what websters dictionary may say about it.Because you need to turn away from the sin in order to be changed and turn towards Christ for forgiveness. 1john1:9 tells us if we sin to seek christ for forgiveness so we can be cleansed.As I said before I believe people can lose their salvation so I do believe they can turn away from God.

unshakeable15
02-14-2006, 05:20 PM
1jn1:19 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us. Obviously, he is speaking of all sins and telling us to confess to him and ask for forgiveness. Tell me how somebody who committs suicide can do this? So no I don't agree with what your saying.
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

(Just thought it would be a good idea to put the verse up there word for word before i say what i am going to.)

Nowhere in that verse does it say that you confess so that you can claim salvation. going back to verses 5 & 6, it says "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth."

Verse 9 is the remedy for those who live in the dark to regain the light. Confession. But simply because you live in the dark does not mean your world is dark, it just means you haven't turned on the lights. That is, God can hold us in His arms and call us "Son" or "Daughter", but if we are consciously sinning, we don't have that fellowship, that connection we once did.

aliengurl7
02-14-2006, 05:29 PM
"but if we are consciously sinning, we don't have that fellowship, that connection we once did."

Thats what Im talking about somebody who commits suicide is consciously sinning by taking their own life.If it wasn't wrong why do people apoligize for doing it? Also, would there be anything wrong with a christian suicide cult? After all, they just want to be with God,right?I think the whole idea that suicide is "okay" and forgiveable is a deception from satan.

amodman
02-14-2006, 05:35 PM
"but if we are consciously sinning, we don't have that fellowship, that connection we once did."

Thats what Im talking about somebody who commits suicide is consciously sinning by taking their own life.If it wasn't wrong why do people apoligize for doing it? Also, would there be anything wrong with a christian suicide cult? After all, they just want to be with God,right?I think the whole idea that suicide is "okay" and forgiveable is a deception from satan.

We are always conciously sinning...

unshakeable15
02-14-2006, 05:40 PM
NOBODY is saying suicide is "okay." Forgivable, yes, because Christ's blood covers over a multitude of sins.

i think we've found the problem in miscommunication. It seems to me that you think, correct me if i'm wrong, that fellowship is the same as salvation. But everyone else is saying that fellowship is not the same.

When we say fellowship with Christ we are refering to the intimacy of the relationship. The close fellowship that comes with confessing one's sins would be like having a best friend and sharing with them everything and becoming closer best friends. The wounded fellowship that comes from unrepentant, willful sin is like having a best friend who lives across the country from you. You're still best friends, but you can't have that same intimate, sharing-everything-including-the-shirt-off-my-back friendship you had previously.

Here's what i said earlier in this thread on that same idea.

every sin you commit adds a brick to the wall. each brick makes the wall a little higher, harder to see over. when you repent and ask forgiveness, God tears down the wall between you and him and heals you; not the kind that made your heart "white as snow" but the kind that helps you say no the next time that sin waltzes up.

aliengurl7
02-14-2006, 05:58 PM
So, if suicide is forgivable than what would be wrong with a christian suicide cult? How can you have fellowship with Christ but not salvation? Its everything.The question is, if somebody commits suicide do they have that fellowship thats necessary for forgiveness?Are they walking in the light? or are they in darkness?

1jn1:6-7 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Spiffles
02-14-2006, 06:21 PM
We are always conciously sinning...

not everyone is "always" sinning conciously or any other way.. always implies all the time which implies consistently/continuously

amodman
02-14-2006, 06:30 PM
not everyone is "always" sinning conciously or any other way.. always implies all the time which implies consistently/continuously

Do you deny you sin? Sure, a deeper relationship with God and spiritual growth can greatly eliminate the amount of sin involved in your life, and also constantly open your eyes to how you have been living your life. However, not until the day we die will we ever, and again I say ever stop sinning.

Spiffles
02-14-2006, 06:42 PM
i'm not sinning when i'm worshiping God, or praying with him..
sin is mearly going against Gods will, or doing what Gods says not to.., so when i'm doing things that God wants me to be doing, i'm not sinning...
I dont deny i do sin.. i just state i dont always sin, which means i dont continuosly sin.

asparagus
02-14-2006, 07:59 PM
So, if suicide is forgivable than what would be wrong with a christian suicide cult? How can you have fellowship with Christ but not salvation? Its everything.The question is, if somebody commits suicide do they have that fellowship thats necessary for forgiveness?Are they walking in the light? or are they in darkness?

1jn1:6-7 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The very next verses say this: 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

What would be wrong with a Christian suicide cult is that suicide is still a sin. Noone has suggested otherwise. Christians don't fight sin to ensure their salvation, but rather as a response to God's love.

newday_7
02-14-2006, 09:08 PM
aliengurl, you have beaten yourself and proved us right when you agreed that all sin is forgivable, cause there's no way anyone could ask for forgiveness after commiting suicide. so if you have to ask for it to be forgiven that that must mean suicide is not forgivable, which would be saying that not all sin is forgivable, which would be basically saying what Jesus said was a lie. Which would mean Jesus wasn't perfect and wasn't God and then that would mean none of us would be saved at all and that our whole faith is a lie.

skynes
02-15-2006, 01:42 AM
^ Above in clearer words:

If all sin is forgivable then that must include suicide.

If repentance for every sin is necessary, then suicide is not forgiveable.

Therefore all sins are not forgivable so Jesus is a liar.

I think the whole idea that suicide is "okay" and forgiveable is a deception from satan.

I haven't insulted you, nor has anyone else. Would you please show us the same courtesy?

NightCrawler
02-15-2006, 08:25 AM
"but if we are consciously sinning, we don't have that fellowship, that connection we once did."

Thats what Im talking about somebody who commits suicide is consciously sinning by taking their own life.If it wasn't wrong why do people apoligize for doing it? Also, would there be anything wrong with a christian suicide cult? After all, they just want to be with God,right?I think the whole idea that suicide is "okay" and forgiveable is a deception from satan.
It isn't 'okay,' it is a sin like any other sin. The idea that Jesus' blood cannot cover over all sins dependant on if you remember to confess them (regardless if you are aware of them or not) is a deception from Satan. He is trying to empty the cross of its power.

aliengurl7
02-15-2006, 10:41 AM
I haven't insulted you, nor has anyone else. Would you please show us the same courtesy?
Thats just my opinion for what its worth, I was intending to insult you.

aliengurl7
02-15-2006, 10:49 AM
It isn't 'okay,' it is a sin like any other sin. The idea that Jesus' blood cannot cover over all sins dependant on if you remember to confess them (regardless if you are aware of them or not) is a deception from Satan. He is trying to empty the cross of its power.
The topic here is suicide, not "all sin."I know Jesus forgives everybody who confesses and repents of their sins.Now listen to this:The question is, Can a person who commits suicide, repent?

PinkGoo
02-15-2006, 10:52 AM
Michelle, I think we've already discussed the fact that you do not have to repent of every single sin you commit. It's absolutely impossible and unnecessary.

aliengurl7
02-15-2006, 10:58 AM
I don't wanna repeat myself like I already have, but you know where I stand.

NightCrawler
02-15-2006, 07:06 PM
The topic here is suicide, not "all sin."I know Jesus forgives everybody who confesses and repents of their sins.Now listen to this:The question is, Can a person who commits suicide, repent?
They don't need to if they have faith.

asparagus
02-15-2006, 08:25 PM
The topic here is suicide, not "all sin."I know Jesus forgives everybody who confesses and repents of their sins.Now listen to this:The question is, Can a person who commits suicide, repent?
What you are suggesting is that we need to confess every single little sin to God, otherwise we aren't saved. For one thing, that throws the whole "relationship" bit out the window. That's not how relationships work. Even in adultery, that doesn't mean the relationship is over. Sin doesn't break our relationship with anyone, especially God. It breaks fellowship, yes, but not the relationship.

The second, and more important issue is the issue of having to confess every single little sin in order to be saved. If I don't know something is a sin, and I don't confess it, am I not saved? What if I am not sure that something is a sin? What if I am a forgetful person and don't remember all my sin? I mean, is everyone with alzheimer's going to hell?

aliengurl7
02-15-2006, 08:55 PM
What you are suggesting is that we need to confess every single little sin to God, otherwise we aren't saved. For one thing, that throws the whole "relationship" bit out the window. That's not how relationships work. Even in adultery, that doesn't mean the relationship is over. Sin doesn't break our relationship with anyone, especially God. It breaks fellowship, yes, but not the relationship.

The second, and more important issue is the issue of having to confess every single little sin in order to be saved. If I don't know something is a sin, and I don't confess it, am I not saved? What if I am not sure that something is a sin? What if I am a forgetful person and don't remember all my sin? I mean, is everyone with alzheimer's going to hell?

They might, do you know? Everybody knows when they sin. No two ways about it.

newday_7
02-15-2006, 11:30 PM
Hey, aliengurl, have you prayed about this at all? ask God if He would send someone who has loved Him all his life to Hell just cause he got alzheimer's (which he has no conrtol over) and forgot about one sin?

skynes
02-16-2006, 12:31 AM
Ok how about this.

Compose a proper argument. One single post. Get your Bible, get the scriptures that support your stance and we'll all have a look at them.

Post them and say why they support your argument.


(I just had a thought, breaking one of the 10 commandments was to result in death. but if suicide is murder and they are already did, how can that be fulfilled?)

Thats just my opinion for what its worth, I was intending to insult you.

Don't you mean I wasn't intending to insult you?


The topic here is suicide, not "all sin."I know Jesus forgives everybody who confesses and repents of their sins.Now listen to this:The question is, Can a person who commits suicide, repent?

Show me in Scripture, where it's said to believers (i.e. not Jews or Gentiles)that every sin must be repented of.


Revelation 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."

Jesus says He only chastises believers, not condemn them.

Matt 9:13 "For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Jesus says He's calling sinners to repentance not the righteous.

Mark 2:17 "When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." "

Once again Jesus says that it is sinners who need repentance, not the righteous.

Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." "

Now there's THREE times in scripture Jesus says the same thing. That it's sinners He calls to repentance.

Hebrews 6:1 "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, "

The author of Hebrews is stating that we should not continually go back and do the foundation of repentance and Jesus save me over and over.


May I add that repentance is a single action. It is not a continual active action, it is a single done once action.

aliengurl7
02-16-2006, 02:21 PM
Hey, aliengurl, have you prayed about this at all? ask God if He would send someone who has loved Him all his life to Hell just cause he got alzheimer's (which he has no conrtol over) and forgot about one sin?
Don't you think that God would know better than us if somebody with alzheimer's deserves to go to hell. After all hitler had parkinsons.

unshakeable15
02-16-2006, 04:42 PM
'cause that excuses his actions. Parkinson's doesn't affect your thinking or your actions; it just eats away at your body.

unless Michelle wants a chance to follow up on Scott's challenge to compose the entire argument, with Scripture, in one post, i'm going to lock the thread. it's gone in circle so many times, the Merry-Go-Round at the park is getting dizzy.

aliengurl7
02-16-2006, 05:37 PM
Don't you mean I wasn't intending to insult you?

Yea, thats what I meant sorry about that.

Heres a few verses:

"Revelation 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."

Is referring to believers and he's telling them to repent.

Rev2:5 Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

He's telling the church of Ephesus that they have left thier first love and that they have to remember from where they have fallen.And to repent or else God will remove their lampstand from its place.

rev3:3 3"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Also telling them to repent and be ready for his coming this is obviously speaking to believers.


Once again Jesus says that it is sinners who need repentance, not the righteous.
Who's righteous? romans3:10 says none is righteous.

May I add that repentance is a single action. It is not a continual active action, it is a single done once action.
Thats not true. Its a continuous action which requires a life of turning away from sins and towards God.

(I just had a thought, breaking one of the 10 commandments was to result in death. but if suicide is murder and they are already did, how can that be fulfilled?)
What do you mean?

disciple
02-16-2006, 05:42 PM
I'm sorry my post might not be worthwhile because of my naïvté, but didn't those churches turn away from God, and not just sin?

Luvnoswin2sayno
02-16-2006, 05:43 PM
actuallly IF you have accepted JEsus Christ as your Lord and Savior ALL of your sins past AND present have BEEN forgiven.

unshakeable15
02-16-2006, 05:44 PM
Rev2:5 Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

He's telling the church of Ephesus that they have left thier first love and that they have to remember from where they have fallen.And to repent or else God will remove their lampstand from its place.
i think you using this verse for your argument hinges on knowing what the lampstand was. you didn't explain that (if you could, using a concordance, or reference Bible).

aliengurl7
02-16-2006, 05:46 PM
I'm sorry my post might not be worthwhile because of my naïvté, but didn't those churches turn away from God, and not just sin?
They turned away from God by sinning. Their still believers but in danger of losing thier salvation. He's warning them unless they repent of their acts.

aliengurl7
02-16-2006, 05:57 PM
i think you using this verse for your argument hinges on knowing what the lampstand was. you didn't explain that (if you could, using a concordance, or reference Bible).
Strongs concordence isn't specific about this verse. But nkjv life application bible commentary says, Jesus warns them that their lights could go out, Jesus himself would exhiquish any light that did not fullfill its purpose. The church had to repent of its sins.

newday_7
02-16-2006, 07:48 PM
I've said this once before, but i'll say it again seeing as you've havn't proved me wrong about it yet. saying that suicide is un forgivable is the same as calling Jesus a liar. If anyone would like me to explain how again i'd be glad to

aliengurl7
02-16-2006, 11:53 PM
You haven't proved me wrong,I haven't proved you wrong,its a tie, now leave me alone already.JK :) I just don't see your point.

newday_7
02-17-2006, 12:05 AM
hehe well my point is simple that suicide doesn't lead straight to hell, cause it's a sin, and Jesus said all sins can be forgiven. Which means suicide can be too

skynes
02-17-2006, 01:06 AM
"Revelation 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."

Is referring to believers and he's telling them to repent.

Correct, but Jesus wasn't telling them they'd lose their salvation. He wads telling them He would chasten them.



Rev2:5 Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

He's telling the church of Ephesus that they have left thier first love and that they have to remember from where they have fallen.And to repent or else God will remove their lampstand from its place.

The Lampstands are explained in Revelation 1:20 "...the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. "

Jesus was saying that is they didn't repent, He would remove that church from Ephesus. He wasn't saying they would lose their salvation.
That church did not repent, the church in Ephesus no longer exists. But the members of it were still saved.


rev3:3 3"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Also telling them to repent and be ready for his coming this is obviously speaking to believers.

Your point is? He was saying that if they didn't keep an eye out for what He was doing, that they wouldn't see the troubles coming. This has nothing to do with salvation.



Who's righteous? romans3:10 says none is righteous.

None is righteous, that's true. But what Jesus was talking about is that He has come to call those who are in rebellion to God to Him, not those who follow and worship God already.


Thats not true. Its a continuous action which requires a life of turning away from sins and towards God.

Do I get saved over and over? Do I get baptized over and over? No I don't. The foundation of repentance is the original turning to God for forgiveness of sin. That is not and cannot be repeated. Once God has wiped the slate clean, it is clean.


What do you mean?

The punishment for murder was death. He who takes life, was to lose their life. But a suicide cannot lose their life for murder, since they're already dead! So half of what Moses said on Murder doesn't apply to them.

=================

You haven't proved me wrong,I haven't proved you wrong,its a tie, now leave me alone already.JK I just don't see your point.

To say that there is a sin that is unforgivable is calling Jesus a liar, Jesus Himself stated that all sins can be forgiven, now this must include suicide or Jesus WILL be a liar.

You cannot say suicide is forgivable ONLY if you repent, since repentance is impossible, suicide would be unforgivable and Jesus lied when He said all sins are forgivable.

unshakeable15
02-17-2006, 12:59 PM
on that note, i'm going to lock this thread. it's beginning to look like a dog chasing it's tail. if you feel a need to have it re-opened, let one of the moderators know (giving your reason) and we'll open it for you.

until then, good day.

Quadripedman
06-26-2007, 11:23 PM
This question has plagued me for a very long time, probally sence I was depressed to the point of said action. So, what are your thoughts? Do you go to heaven if you commit sui.cide?

From what I've thought about it, there could be two options to this.

1: Even though by ki.lling yourself (which I take to be a sin: mur.der), you go to hell, because you didn't have time to ask forgiveness about it.

2: Even though ki.lling yourself is a sin, Jesus has died for you, and taken away the punishment from you for ki.lling yourself, and you still go to heaven.

Before I was saved, and had more of a Catholic view on salvation, I leaned more towards the first option, but now that I am saved, I lean more towards the second, but still, I'm very confused, and any insight would be grately appreciated!

(no, all the times i have periods in the middle of words arent typos. my computer has an evil blocker that blocks out words like that if i try to post them. if a mod could fix the times that i have had to do that, (in this post and the title) that would be greately appreciated!)

skynes
06-26-2007, 11:36 PM
We have a thread on this somewhere. I'll try and dig it out for you

Edit: Found it.

Right here (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showthread.php?t=4586&highlight=suicide)


Core of my argument:

Salvation is not dependent on anything you do, we do not gain it by deeds, we gain it by God's grace. Therefore our deeds would have no effect on LOSING it either, as it was never ours in the first place. The only way to lose it would be for God to revoke it.

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. "

I cover all this though in depth in that thread

NightCrawler
06-27-2007, 09:20 AM
G'job Skynes. Dead-on, concise, and sound.

Quadripedman
06-27-2007, 09:29 AM
yea, i had figured that there would be a thread on it somewhere. i even searched for it last night, but for whatever reason i searched for posts instead of threads....hey, it was like 3am and id been riding on planes all day....

so anyway, thread closed unless a mod feels the need to merge it ::]

RJ91classic
06-27-2007, 09:56 AM
From what I was taught and believe in strongly.It doesn't matter who or what you do if your saved and believe in Jesus you'll be able to go to heaven.
I have been there in depression to where life is too cruel and taking ones own life seems to be the only way to easy the pain.Just remember things are never as bad as they seem.Also if things get bad again and cutting yourself makes you feel good trust me it doesn't it just leaves embarrassing scars of stupidity that only lead to bad memories

jade
06-27-2007, 01:20 PM
Since this has been discussed pretty heavily I went ahead and merged it into the preexisting thread. It has been some time since this was closed up so I'm going to open it back up in case anyone cares to carry on the discussion.

Just don't make me regret opening it back up. ;)

alienyouth9292
06-27-2007, 07:41 PM
This question has plagued me for a very long time, probally sence I was depressed to the point of said action. So, what are your thoughts? Do you go to heaven if you commit sui.cide?

From what I've thought about it, there could be two options to this.

1: Even though by ki.lling yourself (which I take to be a sin: mur.der), you go to hell, because you didn't have time to ask forgiveness about it.

2: Even though ki.lling yourself is a sin, Jesus has died for you, and taken away the punishment from you for ki.lling yourself, and you still go to heaven.

Before I was saved, and had more of a Catholic view on salvation, I leaned more towards the first option, but now that I am saved, I lean more towards the second, but still, I'm very confused, and any insight would be grately appreciated!

(no, all the times i have periods in the middle of words arent typos. my computer has an evil blocker that blocks out words like that if i try to post them. if a mod could fix the times that i have had to do that, (in this post and the title) that would be greately appreciated!)



i believe that if u commit suicide and you are a christian, you will go to heaven. its as simple as that....;D

Quadripedman
06-27-2007, 09:45 PM
yea, thats what i think as well, i just wanted to ask about it because im not too much of a church-goer...(not my discion...)

alorian
06-27-2007, 10:43 PM
I'm not much of a church-goer either (my decision).
Many churches teach against what the bible teaches, especially on this matter.

NightCrawler
06-28-2007, 10:10 AM
Off topic, but God commands that we go to church so we may encourage and be encouraged, working together in the faith. Hebrews 10:25.

alienyouth9292
06-28-2007, 02:55 PM
while many churches have been corrupted, God does want us to band together with other believers....

Quadripedman
06-28-2007, 03:02 PM
Off topic, but God commands that we go to church so we may encourage and be encouraged, working together in the faith. Hebrews 10:25.

like i said though, its not my decistion...im going to start going regularly when i can drive..

aliengurl7
06-28-2007, 03:23 PM
Off topic, but God commands that we go to church so we may encourage and be encouraged, working together in the faith. Hebrews 10:25.

Believers can be gathered anywhere, it can be at home or in a field it doesn't just have to be at a church. Christ said "Where two or three are gathered togethered in my Name, there will I be in the midst of them.".

DarkestRose
06-28-2007, 04:19 PM
There is a thread, I think the one about our prayers influencing God, where Mike explains how the verse you just quoted was taken out of context.

aliengurl7
06-28-2007, 04:27 PM
How was it taken out of context? I'm to lazy to look up the thread.

DarkestRose
06-28-2007, 05:02 PM
This is what Mike said:

Here is the full passage: Matthew 18:15-20 "If your brother sins against you,go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Notice the beginning of that passage that has the single quote marks around a section? Good, 'cause that's quoting from the Old Testament, specifically Deut 19:15. It is speaking of things of this world, things that have to do with how we run 'government' and a court of law. Jesus is still talking about that when he reiterates the "two or three."

He is talking about attempting to bring about a reconciliation between yourself and a friend who has sinned against you. If you can't do it alone, go with two or three and attempt to correct him. If he refuses, basically, kick him out of the church, and in so doing, because you have the two or three witnesses, it is as if in God's name ("where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them").

Also, logically, it doesn't follow using the verse in the 'usual' context (that is, the wrong context). God is with us where at least two are gathering together? Wait, isn't God with us always? If so, why does He need to say specifically when two or more are meeting together, He shows up? Shouldn't He show up wherever we are? Yup. So, either that verse is redundant (in the 'usual' context) or we really don't have the Spirit with us every moment (that is, unless we are with a fellow believer).

I went to the trouble to type this all out because i'm tired of people misusing this verse. It is one of the most misused verses of the Bible. Basically, it doesn't work with your argument.

(Hint of the Week: Paragraphs make reading easier on the eyes.)

Joelle
06-28-2007, 05:41 PM
it's weird because i ALWAYS assumed that if you kill yourself you would go to hell. i had never even considered that you would be going to heaven till someone that was suicidal told me he thought he was going to heaven. now several years later..i dont know what to think. i mean if it seems like such an easy way out. i can commit suicide because im a christian and go to heaven. such an easy way out...you'd think that lots of people would start becoming christians so that they can kill themself..but that opens into another suject...can you lose your salvation..because if you become a christian..invited jesus into your heart then you either can't lose your salvation or you can...which if you can't lose it..would make it an easy to become a christian and kill yourself...i just dont know what to think...

aliengurl7
06-28-2007, 06:12 PM
This is what Mike said:


Jesus is saying that if two or three agree on anything and ask for God to do it, he will fufill their request and Christ is assuring them that he will be there(through his holy spirit) and ready to fullfill their request. Not just church matters or lawful matters. He says anything, he's just making a point.

alienyouth9292
06-28-2007, 06:30 PM
it's weird because i ALWAYS assumed that if you kill yourself you would go to hell. i had never even considered that you would be going to heaven till someone that was suicidal told me he thought he was going to heaven. now several years later..i dont know what to think. i mean if it seems like such an easy way out. i can commit suicide because im a christian and go to heaven. such an easy way out...you'd think that lots of people would start becoming christians so that they can kill themself..but that opens into another suject...can you lose your salvation..because if you become a christian..invited jesus into your heart then you either can't lose your salvation or you can...which if you can't lose it..would make it an easy to become a christian and kill yourself...i just dont know what to think...



well if someone became a christian just so he could commit suicide and go to Heaven, i don't think he would be actually putting his faith in Jesus. he would be putting his faith on a "ticket to Heaven", so therefore, he would spend eternity in Hell. its almost like the person would be devoting his afterlife to Jesus, not his life on earth.....

bobbi
06-28-2007, 07:59 PM
I've said this once before, but i'll say it again seeing as you've havn't proved me wrong about it yet. saying that is un forgivable is the same as calling Jesus a liar. If anyone would like me to explain how again i'd be glad to

I agree with you. Suici/de isn't different than any other sin. One sin isn't any worse than another sin. Yes, different sins have different consequences, but sin is sin.

I don't even get where you guys are getting this "lose your salvation" junk. Can anyone SHOW me in the bible where it says you can lose your salvation? Just curious. Every time Jesus talks about Heaven and salvation, it's always ETERNAL, not "unless you killl yourself."

I think that sucidde is a way of ruining God's plan. He doesn't PLAN for anyone to do that, therefore that decision goes against God's plan for your life. But that doesn't mean you'll go to hell for it!!

Quadripedman
06-28-2007, 08:21 PM
I agree with you. Suici/de isn't different than any other sin. One sin isn't any worse than another sin. Yes, different sins have different consequences, but sin is sin.

I don't even get where you guys are getting this "lose your salvation" junk. Can anyone SHOW me in the bible where it says you can lose your salvation? Just curious. Every time Jesus talks about Heaven and salvation, it's always ETERNAL, not "unless you killl yourself."

I think that sucidde is a way of ruining God's plan. He doesn't PLAN for anyone to do that, therefore that decision goes against God's plan for your life. But that doesn't mean you'll go to hell for it!!


exactly. everyone sins, and sinning ruins Gods plan, so if you ki.lled yourself, would that be any different than sinning and then dying of a hearattack immediately thereafter? i dont think so.

alienyouth9292
06-28-2007, 08:28 PM
exactly. everyone sins, and sinning ruins Gods plan, so if you ki.lled yourself, would that be any different than sinning and then dying of a hearattack immediately thereafter? i dont think so.


actually, everything you might do, even suicide, is part of God's plan that he pre-destined in the beginning of time;D :P you can't technically "ruin" God's plan....

NightCrawler
06-28-2007, 08:35 PM
exactly. everyone sins, and sinning ruins Gods plan, so if you ki.lled yourself, would that be any different than sinning and then dying of a hearattack immediately thereafter? i dont think so.
Wouldn't that show that sin doesn't ruin God's plan?

Meanwhile:

[NIV] Psalms 33:
10 The LORD foils the plans of the nations;
he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.
11 But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever,
the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Just a contrast: God's plans can't be thwarted, but mans' plans are thwarted by God.

[edit]
Jesse answered it while I was posting. But I think he might have been joking :P

Quadripedman
06-28-2007, 08:35 PM
actually, everything you might do, even , is part of God's plan that he pre-destined in the beginning of time;D :P you can't technically "ruin" God's plan....

im still not buying that predestination thing 100%...

alienyouth9292
06-28-2007, 08:36 PM
oh well thats what i believe....

Quadripedman
06-28-2007, 08:40 PM
i just dont really know, but really, in the grand schime of things for me, does it really matter?

alienyouth9292
06-28-2007, 08:43 PM
no it doesn't

Joelle
06-29-2007, 07:37 AM
I don't even get where you guys are getting this "lose your salvation" junk.

i said that because it's something that people debate about. and trust me that is a whole other conversation.

RJ91classic
06-29-2007, 12:54 PM
If you believe you will go to heaven no matter what you do in the bible it says no sin is greater then any other.Don't quote me but I will go check but it says disobeying your parents is to doing witch craft

bob
07-02-2007, 10:15 AM
I don't think it'd be fair if you went to heaven if you comitted suicide. If that was the case, I'd jump off a cliff right now without passing go and collecting my $200.

The bible says in James 1: 2-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:2-3;&version=50;) to rejoice in trials, not end your life.

earthfiregurl
07-07-2007, 10:56 AM
^what he said :)

NightCrawler
07-07-2007, 11:11 AM
I don't think it'd be fair if you went to heaven if you comitted suicide. If that was the case, I'd jump off a cliff right now without passing go and collecting my $200.

The bible says in James 1: 2-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:2-3;&version=50;) to rejoice in trials, not end your life.
Do you think it is fair that you go to heaven at all??

bob
07-07-2007, 12:13 PM
Do you think it is fair that you go to heaven at all??

Good point.

But the bible really doesn't point out any short cuts. If there were, I'd take them.

someoneudontkno
07-07-2007, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE=amodman;244499]Do you deny you sin? Sure, a deeper relationship with God and spiritual growth can greatly eliminate the amount of sin involved in your life, and also constantly open your eyes to how you have been living your life. However, not until the day we die will we ever, and again I say ever stop sinning.[/QUOTE/]

So.. because we have sinned we do continue sinning? is it not possible to train yourself through a lifelong walk to not sin?

Psa 19:12 Who can understand [his] errors? cleanse thou me from secret [faults].
Psa 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins]; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

hmm.. great transgression=sin?

this shows that we can be upright, innocent of great transgression, does it not?

skynes
07-07-2007, 03:58 PM
The focus of Psalm 19 is the effect of God on a person.

It says in verse 7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;..."

Then in verse 9 "The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

Then it says how much these are to be desired.

Then it says vs 13 "Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression. "

So looking at 13 alone, it could be seen that it's possible to train to be sinless. However if you look at the whole chapter and see the emphasis and focus is NOT on people, but on God. Followed by vs 14 "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer. "

You can see that David wanted to be acceptable in God's sight.

When God looks at me, He sees me dressed in white, covered in the blood of the lamb. I am already acceptable in His sight. Despite my failings, despite my sins, I am blameless and innocent before Him, because I trusted in Christ.

The blood of Christ is enough for suicide.

bob
07-08-2007, 09:15 PM
The blood of Christ is enough for suicide.

Yes, but aren't you supposed to repent of your sins?

skynes
07-08-2007, 10:23 PM
Yes, but aren't you supposed to repent of your sins?


If I forget one of my sins, forget to repent of it... Have I lost my salvation because of it?

If I was unaware something was sin, do I lose my salvation?

No to both.

Continual repentance is a sign of a genuine Christian, but it is not what keeps them as a Christian.

Punkchick_002
07-09-2007, 04:28 AM
Yes, its is great that you repent because that is what Jesus tells you to do.....but what MAKE you a christian is that you pick up your cross daily and follow Jesus, EVEN when you don't "FEEL" like it! When you commit suicide you are killing someone that was made perfect in Gods eyes, we are made in the image of him, and when someone decides to kill themselves, they WILL go to hell.....no matter if they were a strong christian, but if you were a christian, would you kill yourseslf? You would know that God put you on this earth to do His will, why would you stop your life before you found out what that was?

Just my thoughts!!!!

skynes
07-09-2007, 04:33 AM
they WILL go to hell.....

Back that up with scripture.

Mark 3:

28 Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter

29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"

Unless suicide is the unforgiveable sin (which it isn't) then it is a forgiveable sin along with every other.

NightCrawler
07-09-2007, 07:54 AM
Yes, its is great that you repent because that is what Jesus tells you to do.....but what MAKE you a christian is that you pick up your cross daily and follow Jesus, EVEN when you don't "FEEL" like it!
I thought it was God's grace -- who gives us salvation through faith -- because we fail daily. The verse you're referencing is about discipleship, right?

When you commit suicide you are killing someone that was made perfect in Gods eyes, we are made in the image of him,
True, but any sin is forgiven men except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. (Matt 13?)

and when someone decides to kill themselves, they WILL go to hell.....
Doesn't that imply that a sin cannot be forgiven men other than the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I ask this because suicide is not a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

no matter if they were a strong christian, but if you were a christian, would you kill yourseslf?
Didn't Jesus commit suicide on our behalf? He willingly went to the cross to die, after being tormented, flogged, and mocked.

You would know that God put you on this earth to do His will, why would you stop your life before you found out what that was?
That assumes that committing suicide under any circumstance is necessarily outside of His will, and that you can only find out God's will by living your life out until something else causes your death.

Just my thoughts!!!!
Okay.

bobbi
07-09-2007, 07:54 PM
I absolutley agree with you, Johnathan. It says in the Bible that the only unforgivable sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

How can you argue further? That ends it right there.

DarkestRose
07-09-2007, 08:09 PM
Mentally ill people have a high rate of suicide. There are many different factors leading up to this, but even strong Christians can become mentally ill. What if (this a true scenario too) a schizophrenic was told by hallucinated voices that if he killed himself he would go to Heaven and that God wanted him to do this? (Though the guy in the real scenario survived.)

And some mentally ill people who are Christians feel forsaken by God and forsaken by the church which at-large ostracizes them, sometimes accuses their lack of faith as why they are not better, sometimes blames their sin as the cause for them getting sick and sometimes (quite literally) demonizes them. People who feel that God doesn't want anything to do with their life anymore, who are cut off from those who should counsel them and feel that all they had to live for is gone from them...sometimes they give up because they honestly believe there is no hope.

Life's messy like that, but stuff like that needs to be taken into account.

bob
07-09-2007, 08:49 PM
I don't think there's a clear cut answer. If there was, I'd drive my car off a cliff tomorrow morning. (I'd have to go out in style) I think it'd probably be fair to let God be the judge seeing as how he is God and what not.

NightCrawler
07-10-2007, 08:02 AM
I don't think there's a clear cut answer. If there was, I'd drive my car off a cliff tomorrow morning. (I'd have to go out in style) I think it'd probably be fair to let God be the judge seeing as how he is God and what not.
Why would you do that?

I am taking that response to be of similar nature to Skyne's response to predestination. Why is something that is fixed cause or reason to neglect commands, give up, or be lazy? Paul said that he would rather die because it would mean being with the Lord, but he knew in his heart that it was necessary that he was to remain; Philippians 1:

21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.

bobbi
07-10-2007, 08:23 AM
Well said.

bob
07-10-2007, 11:52 AM
Why would you do that?


Who would honestly choose Earth over Heaven?

NightCrawler
07-10-2007, 01:03 PM
Who would honestly choose Earth over Heaven?
The apostle Paul.

As I quoted.... >_>

bobbi
07-10-2007, 03:21 PM
Who would honestly choose Earth over Heaven?

Because you're suppose to be here. If there was no plan for your life, you'd just be held down under the water when getting baptized! Just because is the EASY way out of life doesn't mean that it's the right way!!! It's the same with sin..sin is easy and it's fun, but does that give you the right to do it? No way.

skynes
07-11-2007, 01:14 AM
Who would honestly choose Earth over Heaven?

Those who realise they have a job here, and that souls depend on them doing it. Your friends, your family, your neighbours. Their souls depend upon your actions. I can think of no greater blow to the truth of the Gospel in the eyes of the world than a Christian who commits suicide.

---

Psalm 37:24 "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the Lord upholds him with His hand. "

bob
07-11-2007, 01:49 PM
I just got pwnd.

I change my opinion.

bobbi
07-11-2007, 06:04 PM
Haha. Good. I'm glad. :)

NightCrawler
07-12-2007, 10:46 AM
I just got pwnd.

I change my opinion.
Especially in light of your blog, I'd like to point out that conceding takes a lot of humility.

bob
07-12-2007, 12:26 PM
More than you'll ever know. ;)

LeShep
07-13-2007, 04:56 PM
what about accidental suicide, what happens then?

DarkestRose
07-13-2007, 04:57 PM
I don't think it's unforgivable.