skynes
02-22-2006, 01:17 AM
Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


Firstly, let me make it clear that this is not a 'Can you lose your salvation' thread. That's in Mars Hill right here (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showthread.php?t=1072&highlight=lose+salvation).

I want your opinions and views on this scripture. Things you've heard and things you've read.

I consulted my good old Greek dictionary (becoming more and more useful each and every day) and I found these:

Enlightened: Englightened, to be englightened, brought into light.

Tasted, both of them: To taste, to experience with enjoyment.

Partakers: Partners, allies.

Fall Away: Total Apostasy

renew: Turn back

NightCrawler
02-24-2006, 01:11 PM
If you fall away, you can't repent for your sin again.... because it would be like putting Christ back up on the cross.

Yeah, it is confusing ish.

weebird20
03-03-2006, 01:58 AM
So, what does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean? It could be that it is presenting a “hypothetical” situation. It could be saying that if a true believer were to fall away...which by the following verse seems impossible...

1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

...then there would be no other way of salvation, because there is no other way...

John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." and

Acts 4:12, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

If believers were to reject Christ they could never come back because “to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace”...

Hebrews 6:6, "if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

hmmm..just a thot...

skynes
06-19-2006, 07:44 AM
Well lads I think I have it cracked.

Firstly consider, who is this addressed to? Who is the recipient?

answer: Hebrews.

Personally I think this is to ALL Hebrews, both those who believed in Christ and those who didn't.
Hence why the first couple of chapters where trying to show them that Christ is the fulfillment of the promises, that God is speaking through Christ now.

Now onto the passage.

This is addressed to Hebrews, thus it needs to be looked at in a Hebrew context.

They were God's chosen people, they were HOPING for the promise, but it wasn't fulfilled yet.

Therefore they only had a TASTE of things to come, a taste of God's power and goodness. They were still partakers of the Holy Spirit too. But He didn't fully live in their hearts

However, their repentance was that of water and flesh. It wasn't a repentance to salvation such as we have now. It was like John the Baptist - he baptised with water but Christ baptises with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
It still meant something to a point, but it lacked saving power so to speak.


Hebrews 6 was an encouragement to take the last step. You have the Jewish foundation - repentance, baptism etc.
Now they were encouraged to accept Christ as the fulfillment of the promise.

This is the big bit:

The author was saying that a Jew, who refused Christ could NOT go back to the old ways. The old ways were now obsolete, there won't be another Christ coming just for them. it's Jesus Christ for all mankind or noone.

Yearly sacrifices would not work anymore.
God has fulfilled his promise in Christ.

aliengurl7
07-24-2006, 05:05 AM
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


Its not just for Hebrews or Jews but for all. All the bible is intended for us. Just like the letters of Paul are not just for the Thessalonians. You have to distingish which is intended for the reader.
Hebrews 6:4-6, this is how I interpret it, it is impossible for christians who have had salvation and were given the Holy Spirit,and recieved the word of Christ, If they were to fall away to be brought back because they would be crucifying Christ by rejected him thus putting Him to a open shame again.
All through Hebrews it warns against hardness of the heart because it can become irreversible and making repentance impossible. So this verse is not Christ saying, "You can't come back" its the person who's harden heart makes it impossible for them to do so.

skynes
07-24-2006, 06:04 AM
My original problem with Hebrews 6 is that what you said completely stands out from everything else in the book. It doesn't fit in at all.

I read Hebrews over and over when researching this and each time that passage stood out not making any sense with the context.

Its not just for Hebrews or Jews but for all. All the bible is intended for us. Just like the letters of Paul are not just for the Thessalonians. You have to distingish which is intended for the reader.

Yeah I know that... but when you understand it's historical context it makes its modern day context a lot clearer.

Its historical context has NOTHING to do with losing salvation, not in the slightest.

The core message was that Christ is the only way, no other methods of salvation will work, Judaism will not work anymore. The old covenant has been declared null and void.

They were living in hopes of the Messiah, the Messiah has now come. To continue to hope for a Messiah is fruitless because Christ will not come back to be crucified for them all over again.

When it spoke of those who 'tasted' the good things of God etc. It was referring to The JEwish 'gifts' so to speak.

They had laws of stone, we have the law on our hearts.
The Spirit came upon them, the Spirit now lives in side us.

---------------

All through Hebrews it warns against hardness of the heart because it can become irreversible and making repentance impossible. So this verse is not Christ saying, "You can't come back" its the person who's harden heart makes it impossible for them to do so.


This doesn't work with the wording used. It says that they can't repent because it would be crucifying Christ again, not because their hearts are too hardened.

theelectric3
07-24-2006, 10:41 AM
Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


Firstly, let me make it clear that this is not a 'Can you lose your salvation' thread. That's in Mars Hill right here (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showthread.php?t=1072&highlight=lose+salvation).

I want your opinions and views on this scripture. Things you've heard and things you've read.

I consulted my good old Greek dictionary (becoming more and more useful each and every day) and I found these:

Enlightened: Englightened, to be englightened, brought into light.

Tasted, both of them: To taste, to experience with enjoyment.

Partakers: Partners, allies.

Fall Away: Total Apostasy

renew: Turn back


i think these verses are speaking of the believer. when one is close to God, "on fire" as we would often define them, and then they full on rebel from God... it is nearly impossible for them to come back.

why? because God hates them? no. because to go from being so close to God, to getting so hard and cold... they know the "right things to say"... and so it's hard to minister to them. they think "been there, done that, tried that and it didn't work."

my concern is that they never really tasted Jesus' goodness and gotten to know Him. why do i say that? because after all that Jesus has done for us... all of His love and goodness... and to reject that? how? He didn't have to save us, we surely didn't deserve it.

if we really stop and look at Love... how could we say no? it doesn't make sense to me.

sidenote: it'd be interesting to look up what "impossible" in this passage is defined.

skynes
07-24-2006, 11:05 AM
I know many people who've gone through a major backslide state, I mean right up to cursing God stuff. Yet they came back to God later.

Going on modern ideas on this passage. They aren't saved. they had their one extra chance and they blew it, now they get to look forward to hell.

It doesn't make sense.

If noone who turns away can come back, then that means NOONE at all, ever ever ever. Yet in our lives and the lives of those around us contradict that.

How does this fit with the rest of the book?
The book is an encouagement to the Jews to accept Christ as their messiah, why in the middle of that, would the author turn around and out of nowhere speak a Salvation loss warning to Christians, then go right back to encouraging Jews?

-------------

I checked the word Impossible. It means just that - Absolutely Impossibly, completely powerless, cannot be done.

aliengurl7
07-24-2006, 11:34 AM
Well, what about Satan? He was perfect in all his ways, close to God, until iniquity was found in him and he fell away and he is never coming back. If a high ranking angel can fall away and not return, why wouldn't it be possible for a human too?

Even though its to the Hebrews it can still be applied today. Because the book of hebrews was speaking to the Jews that became christians then went back to Judaism losing their salvation. And hebrews warns them mutiple times to not act like their fathers did in the wilderness when they tried and doubted God. Their unbelief hardened their heart. Its warning against unbelief.

skynes
07-24-2006, 12:04 PM
Angels are different. The Bible even says so... in Hebrews funnily enough

Hebrews 2: 16 "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham"

"Even though its to the Hebrews it can still be applied today. Because the book of hebrews was speaking to the Jews that became christians then went back to Judaism losing their salvation."

I disagree. From the way it's written I think it's written to ALL Hebrews, those who believe in Christ and those who don't. If written to Christians, why spend so long arguing from the OT how Christ is the Messiah?

I know it can be applied today, I just dont agree with the applications people see in it, lol.

dawn of light
07-24-2006, 12:10 PM
That passage is confusing to me as well. I read it in the Amplified version and it seemed even more confusing.

We can't really be compared to angels. They're not above us, they're supposed to minister to us.

The Bible does say that nothing is impossible with God, but to me that's not a satisfactory answer to explain this passage. I'm gonna do a little research before I post anything else.

skynes
07-24-2006, 12:11 PM
Rachel, this is what I got from researching it - http://www.panheads.org/boards/showpost.php?p=287091&postcount=4

aliengurl7
07-24-2006, 12:26 PM
We can't really be compared to angels. They're not above us, they're supposed to minister to us."

hebrews 2: 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

We are lower than the angels. When the word became flesh he became a little lower. By being a human he was lower.

dawn of light
07-24-2006, 12:48 PM
Psalm 8:5 (NKJV)
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor.

Psalm 8:5 (Amplified)
5Yet You have made him but a little lower than God [or heavenly beings] , and You have crowned him with glory and honor.

The Hebrew word used here for 'angels' is Elohim. This is the only place in the Bible that Elohim is translated into angels. Everywhere else it's translated God.

Just thought I'd share that, I'd quote more verses but I don't want to derail this thread! Sorry!

aliengurl7
07-24-2006, 12:49 PM
Why would hebrews be in the new testament if its not for christians? Through this argument we can say all books in the NT was written for them back then and not for us now.
Hebrews 2: 16 "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on, him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


My version(KJV) says something different and the context is different as well. Its speaking of how Jesus took on a form of a man and not of angels.

why spend so long arguing from the OT how Christ is the Messiah?"

He was talking to unbelievers and clarifying that Christ was not only the messiah but greater than Moses. That can be of use for unbelievers now.

skynes
07-25-2006, 12:35 AM
Quick question: Have any of you prayed about this passage?
---------------------


I went and re-read it another two or three times last night.

Here goes:

Based on modern interpretation we see this....

Chapter 5 is about Christ being our High Priest. How He is in heaven etc as a Priest.

Chapter 6 is Oh No Christians can lose salvation!! Oh and God can't lie

Chapter 7 is about Christ our High Priest and how He's like Melchizidek.


...
See the problem? It makes no sense whatsoever, the modern idea on Chapter 6 changes it entirely from the surrounding chapters. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

Now let me give an alternative idea.

The New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant.
Judaism 2.0 so to speak.

The Jews were living in hopes of the Messiah and His coming.
The Christians are living in the fulfillment of that hope.

Hebrews was written to Hebrews (funnily enough). Both those who believed in Christ and those who didn't.
Due to this, you need to compare everything to the Old Testament and Old Covenant as it draws a lot of symbology and wordings from there in order to make the author's point.

It says somewhere in the NT, I don't know the exact wording so I can't search it up (anyone care to help?) it says that the Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come, that what God gave Moses on the mountain was a copy of what he was shown.

The Old Covenant was an imperfect copy of something in heaven.
The New Covenant was the realised complete version.

However the New Covenant was built UPON the Old. The Old Covenant was like a foundation to everything of Christ.

So when we see this in chapter 6:

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment

Notice anything? These are all the basics of Judaism.
The author was saying that Judaism was a foundation for perfection and that we shouldn't relay the foundation over and over again, but leave it alone and start building upon it.

Then it goes into the 4-6 bit.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This is connected to the bit before it, that of relaying the foundation again and again.

The Old Covenant is fulfilled in Christ so the Old Covenant is now obsolete.

"Why does one hope for what he sees?" as Paul says.

The Jews had repented (at least) once. Every year at their sacrifice of a lamb, it was an act of repentance for the sins of the past year. However this repentance was not a repentance to salvation, as up till this point Christ had not yet come.

God however granted them salvation through it, not because of the act, but because of the Faith they had in hoping for the Messiah. They were living by Faith in the shadow of something to come.

Now the Christ has arrived, they are told to no longer live in the shadow but proceed to the full thing.

Those Jews who refused to accept Christ but continued the Old Covenant and living in the shadow would find it would not work anymore. They were trying to re-lay the foundation over and over.

They were hoping for a Messiah which had already come. Christ died for sins ONCE and only ONCE. Not twice or three times.

The author says that Christ is not going to come back and get crucified again just for those Jews who refused Him the first time.
They can't be renewed again by the sacrificial based repentance cause Christ had died already and that old way was nullified.

After this the Author continues into God's faithfulness.
He spends verses 13 to the end talking about God's truthfulness, that He cannot lie and that He always keeps His promises.

If 4-6 is about salvation, this end bit makes no sense. What has God's faithfulness got to do with a Christian who turns away from God and condemns himself to hell?

If 4-6 is about God providing the Messiah and that Faith in Him only brings salvation, then it makes perfect sense. As providing the Messiah was a huge promise God made.