TheFireBreathes
03-10-2006, 08:21 PM
Ok, I know lieing is a sin and all, but why is it still a sin if your doing it for the sake of someone's life and/or protecting your country? I mean is it a sin if you kill someone in self defense? And there's so many different scenarios where this could jump in. Like if you were in the CIA (or any intelligence agancy) and you didnt want to blow your cover so you told your friend you were a lawyer or something. Or like negotiators (sp?) Im sure they have to lie in order to get that person whom is olding people hostage out sometimes. Im sorry, I just dont understand this.

bob
03-11-2006, 05:40 AM
First off, its spelled lying, so please change that before someone makes a sarcastic remark about it.

I don't think lying is good in any circumstance, so . . .

amodman
03-11-2006, 09:28 AM
Not saying one way or another, I like this particular story -

1Sa 21:10 And David arose, and fled that day for fear of Saul, and went to Achish the king of Gath.
11 And the servants of Achish said unto him, [Is] not this David the king of the land? did they not sing one to another of him in dances, saying, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands?
12 And David laid up these words in his heart, and was sore afraid of Achish the king of Gath.
13 And he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard.
14 Then said Achish unto his servants, Lo, ye see the man is mad: wherefore [then] have ye brought him to me?
15 Have I need of mad men, that ye have brought this [fellow] to play the mad man in my presence? shall this [fellow] come into my house?
22:1 David therefore departed thence, and escaped to the cave Adullam: and when his brethren and all his father's house heard [it], they went down thither to him.

korey_cooper_jr
03-11-2006, 10:36 AM
First off, its spelled lying, so please change that before someone makes a sarcastic remark about it.

Haha, looks like you just contradicted yourself, bob.

sky_flashings
03-11-2006, 10:38 AM
Check out Judges 3:12-30. Here's a crazy story about an average guy, (or below than average, in this case, him being left-handed, which back then was unheard of), who was called by God to set them free of Moab. While lying and murder are sins, this man did it to free his country from oppression. Also read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8. (You probably know it, it's the passage about there being a time for everything) Included in that is "A time to kill, and a time to heal, a time to break down, and a time to build up." While lying and murder is a sin, I believe that it has it's place, else the majority of the Bible would be found in sin.

korey_cooper_jr
03-11-2006, 10:38 AM
Anywho, I've always been taught that a sin is sin. Like... even if I told a "white lie" (as in telling someone they looked nice in a very ugly hat to not hurt feelings), and I happened to die or Jesus came back, I'd still go to hell with the murderers and such. So when someone asks me a question like "Do I look good in this?" I try to avoid it, or give some type of helpful response instead of yes or no. :-\

riz
03-11-2006, 11:02 AM
Anywho, I've always been taught that a sin is sin. Like... even if I told a "white lie" (as in telling someone they looked nice in a very ugly hat to not hurt feelings), and I happened to die or Jesus came back, I'd still go to hell with the murderers and such.

That reasoning is fallible on so many levels.

korey_cooper_jr
03-11-2006, 11:35 AM
That reasoning is fallible on so many levels.

What do you mean?

Isildur9473
03-11-2006, 12:03 PM
Anywho, I've always been taught that a sin is sin. Like... even if I told a "white lie" (as in telling someone they looked nice in a very ugly hat to not hurt feelings), and I happened to die or Jesus came back, I'd still go to hell with the murderers and such. So when someone asks me a question like "Do I look good in this?" I try to avoid it, or give some type of helpful response instead of yes or no. :-\

I'm sure God would condemn you to hell if you were a hostage negociator, I agree totally. :\

skynes
03-11-2006, 12:48 PM
Killing someone in self-defense os not murder, therefore is not sin.

The lying one is complicated.

On one hand, lying is sin, regardless of the circumstance. Even if you are a CIA agent, lying is still sinful.

On the other hand, due to our screwed up world, lying is sometimes necessary. In the case of the CIA guy, to lie is to sin, to not lie is to probably have people killed...

Isildur9473
03-11-2006, 12:58 PM
On the other hand, due to our screwed up world, lying is sometimes necessary. In the case of the CIA guy, to lie is to sin, to not lie is to probably have people killed...

Yeah, so I believe Common-Sense prevails here.

korey_cooper_jr
03-11-2006, 05:56 PM
Look I was just saying my opinion... or what I've just always been told.

riz
03-12-2006, 06:51 AM
Sorry, but damned for a sin you commit right before an unexpected death? I don't buy it. Jesus forgave all our sins when he died and rose. He has forgiven all the sins we have done; also the sins we have yet to commit. We would all be in pretty horrible shape if what you've said is true. Our repentance and belief in Christ are what initially saves us from condemnation, not some random confession we must take before we die. A freak accident without warning should not be the deciding factor on whether we will be heading to hell or not.

alorian
03-12-2006, 09:03 AM
Anywho, I've always been taught that a sin is sin. Like... even if I told a "white lie" (as in telling someone they looked nice in a very ugly hat to not hurt feelings), and I happened to die or Jesus came back, I'd still go to hell with the murderers and such. So when someone asks me a question like "Do I look good in this?" I try to avoid it, or give some type of helpful response instead of yes or no. :-\

Sounds like people trying to scare you into submission. I detest when people do that.

disciple
03-12-2006, 01:57 PM
A freak accident without warning should not be the deciding factor on whether we will be heading to hell or not.
I agree with that.

It, of course, does not mean we shouldn't strive to better ourselves and live as righteous a life we can (I know that "no one is righteous" but I mean to strive for living that way).

lamb_servant72
03-12-2006, 02:23 PM
I Kings 22:
v20 "The LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this while another said that. 21 "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 "The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice {him} and also prevail. Go and do so.' 23 "Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."

Read this chapter for a better understanding. I know I've discussed this chapter elsewhere. I know lying is one of the Ten Commandents. But, God asked one of the spirits before His throne to go into 400 prophets and lie to them about what He was saying.

I find this interesting.

TheFireBreathes
03-12-2006, 06:12 PM
Hmm, that is intresting. I dont even know what to say haha.

amodman
03-12-2006, 07:39 PM
Hmm, that is intresting. I dont even know what to say haha.

I/II Kings/Samuel/Chronicles is great for that stuff, heh. I've just been gettin' through it myself. I think my favorite was when Elijah ran faster than the chariots to beat the king back to the city, lol :D. God "girded up his loins." Great stuff.

skynes
03-13-2006, 01:08 AM
Amodman, when I see girded up his loins, I can't help but see him pull up his skirt and get chased by a couple of dogs who want a bite to eat.

So he runs faster than a chariot to avoid the dogs...

I know thats not what happened, but it makes me laugh to think about it.

korey_cooper_jr
03-13-2006, 03:05 AM
I/II Kings/Samule/Chronicles is great for that stuff, heh. I've just been gettin' through it myself. I think my favorite was when Elijah ran faster than the cahriots to beat the king back to the city, lol :D. God "girded up his loins." Great stuff.

I agree. I love that story. He's better than the Flash!! :D

bob
03-13-2006, 03:40 PM
Elijah was flat out awesome.

TheFireBreathes
03-13-2006, 03:41 PM
Amodman, when I see girded up his loins, I can't help but see him pull up his skirt and get chased by a couple of dogs who want a bite to eat.

So he runs faster than a chariot to avoid the dogs...

I know thats not what happened, but it makes me laugh to think about it.

He'd be a good mailman *laughs*...I know that was lame.

lamb_servant72
03-13-2006, 05:44 PM
I/II Kings/Samuel/Chronicles is great
I love reading those, too! Elijah is awsome!!

loner_33
03-13-2006, 07:09 PM
Back on topic, I think it has it's place. Rahab the prostitue lied to keep the Israelite spies safe from Jericho's soldiers, and then said something along the lines of "The Lord has sent you" or something like that (I can't remember exactly and I'm too lazy to fetch my concordance :p )

And what about Samson? He was used as God's tool against the Philistines--He killed them simply for vengeance! And I think vengeance is wrong ("It's mine to avenge, I will repay"~several verses, I'm looking at Hebrews 10:30) But in the end he figured out that God was what mattered and "killed more when he died than when he lived." I guess, in the end, it all comes down to the purpose that God has given to you. If you're meant to be a soldier, you'd better be able to kill. If you're meant to be a CIA agent, you'd best be ready to lie... At least, I think that's how it would go... *needs to study the topic more*

amodman
03-14-2006, 12:45 PM
I just remembered another story from (I/II?) Kings. One of Kings (duh) whose name I can't remember gained the throne (Israel? Judah? don't remember which, sorry, lol) and, yet again, had to cleanse the Baal worshippers and corruptions his forbear(s) had let into the nation. To do such, he sent word throughout all the land that a great celebration of Baal would be had at the Temple (another king had built it) of Baal. He made certain that every single Baal worshipper was in attendance.

Once they were all gathered in the Temple and had it, for the first time, completely filled, he called out to the crowd to make sure that everyone there was really there to worship Baal and that no followers of the LORD (Yaweh) were present. Having confirmed this fact, he took his leave of the Temple and informed the commander of his assembled army to slaughter them all by the sword and to not let a single one of them escape! After which, he destroyed the Temple (of Baal). He was highly favored by God! ;D

skynes
03-15-2006, 01:05 AM
Did God these people to lie? Or did they do it of their own accord?

I think you can lie (sin) and still accomplish good. God will honour the good, but the sin will still be sin.

lamb_servant72
03-15-2006, 06:19 AM
I Kings 22:
v20 "The LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this while another said that. 21 "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 "The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice {him} and also prevail. Go and do so.' 23 "Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."

Read this chapter for a better understanding. I know I've discussed this chapter elsewhere. I know lying is one of the Ten Commandents. But, God asked one of the spirits before His throne to go into 400 prophets and lie to them about what He was saying.

I find this interesting.
Sorry to requote myself. Scott, I know we've discussed these verses before, and we disagree on what we think they are saying. But, it looks to me as if God asked a spirit to lie.

I know we are not supposed to lie. I don't understand everything about God.

Interesting that the story of Samson should come up. The Israelites were forbidden to marry "outsiders", yet look at Judges 14:1-4. Samson is crazy over this Philistine woman, but his parents don't want him to marry her. Verse 4 says it was of the Lord, for He was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.

Is it sin if it serves God's purpose?

skynes
03-15-2006, 07:25 AM
I say that sin is sin, regardless of circumstance. But God can use any circumstance and sin to accomplsh His Will.

lamb_servant72
03-15-2006, 07:52 AM
But God can use any circumstance and sin to accomplsh His Will. I want to be sure I'm understanding.

Would you say God would choose do use sin to accomplish His will? (Or, did the sin happen, and God turned it around for His purpose....which we know He can do.)

It looks like from these scriptures, that He chose and even asked (before the sin happened) to have the person or spirit commit sin to accomplish His purpose.

petrameansrock
03-15-2006, 05:20 PM
There are two very common misconceptions about the commandments:

1. The commandment in the original text did NOT say "Thou shalt not kill," it said "Thou shalt not murder in cold blood." There is a big difference between the two. Murder in cold blood is when you kill a defenseless person who doesnt know its coming. If you kill to protect another, or yourself then you have not sinned, because you did not murder them in cold blood.

2. The commandment does NOT say "Thou shalt not lie," it says "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Again, there is a difference between lying and bearing false witness against your neighbor. What it is saying is that, you should not lie for personal gain, or make false accusations, or lie to hurt someone you dont like. It is okay to lie to protect another, as long as your not hurting innocents by doing it.

alorian
03-15-2006, 05:30 PM
I agree with Scott here. Sin is sin, but God can use the circumstances of peoples' sins to accomplish good.

lamb_servant72
03-15-2006, 06:08 PM
Seth, did you read the scripture (from post #27)?

Don't go on what you have been told to believe about God. What does that scripture say?

loner_33
03-15-2006, 06:32 PM
"God permits what he hates to accomplish what he loves..."

alorian
03-15-2006, 07:58 PM
Yeah lisa, I had this discussion with my mom once. I can't remember the whole outcome of our convo, Gahh! She was arguing your side, though, but I prevailed, heheh. A "spirit" told the Lord he would do that, and God said "go and do so". You need to look at intent. Was God commanding the spirit to do so? Or saying "pffftttt, yeah, go ahead and do it." or "go and do it, if that's your plan, that's right, go ahead"
Maybe I should say this tomorrow when I'm cognitive, or until I get coffee later tonight

unshakeable15
03-15-2006, 10:26 PM
Is it sin if it serves God's purpose?
Was Judas' betrayal sin? If talk by the New Testament authors is any indication, then i'd say a resounding "Yes!" is in order.

Did it serve God's purpose? He caused the Son of Man to be handed over to be killed, so that mankind might be redeemed. I'd say there's a purpose any greater.

But at the same time, we know from James (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:13-15;&version=31;) that God does not tempt. Would compelling someone to sin (such as Judas' betrayl, or Samson's lie) be considered temptation?

alorian
03-16-2006, 01:50 AM
Yes, thank you. I would add were it not almost 4 AM

lamb_servant72
03-16-2006, 02:14 AM
A "spirit" told the Lord he would do that, and God said "go and do so". You need to look at intent. Was God commanding the spirit to do so? Or saying "pffftttt, yeah, go ahead and do it." or "go and do it, if that's your plan, that's right, go ahead"

I disagree. That's not what the scripture said. 1 Kings 22:20, "The Lord said, who will go up and entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?"

This is the scripture. God asked. The spirit didn't say he was going to do it until God asked.

This wasn't just permitting, either. God asked.

Samson falling in love with Delilah was of God. The Word says that. So, if God doesn't tempt, it must not have been sin. But, then why was it sin before?

Now, I realize what Petrameansrock actually helps this conversation concerning Ahab (not Samson). I didn't read that until after I posted. I don't normally do that, I just didn't realize anyone else had posted. But, I've got to go to work now, so more on this later.

Jesus_Skater
03-16-2006, 05:29 AM
I agree with Scott here. Sin is sin, but God can use the circumstances of peoples' sins to accomplish good.
yes, thats is true sin is sin, but inevitibly God will use all means to accomplish his will even if that means letting the devil have some control over us