Hey, Wot do guys think of freedom of speech? I mean any speech? Post away, I'm very interested to hear wot the americans think!!!

I thank God that I live in a country that allows me the right to speak. And if that means that some moron can say whatever moronic thing they want; then they are just proving that they are a moron. But that also means that I can stand up and speak inteligently whether I agree or disagree.

I Think free speech is not "I can say what ever I want and you can't do anything about it :P," rather it is "I can safely talk about an Issue, including Government and it's policies, and not be thrown into jail for saying it." Freedom of speech shouldn't be a licence for vulgarities, nor should it be a licence to lie, gossip, or slander. That isn't freedom of speech, it is anachy of speech.

What happens when a moron starts writing all over the school black bord things like "Death to Arabs" as one kid did in my school? I tell you, freedom of speach ends there. And as the policemen who were brought in to take care of the situation explained to us, the kid could say what ever he wanted at home in his room, or even amongst his friends, but on that blackbord he crossed the line. The kid, and his friends who helped him got legal warnings.

Yes, there is a thin line where free speech ends. They do things like that in school to look kewl in front of their friends. The reality there is that there is no reality there. They know nothing about Arabs or other people across the globe. I think a lot of it has to do with how much the education system in America sucks and how lazy this country is. People don't care who they are and they don't want to learn anything.

CJ

Actually the Constitution says free speech cannot be abridged neither can the press. It doesn't say except in a crowded theater, or when it hurts someone else's feelings or if it has racial overtones or not. It says "Congress shall make NO LAW..." That is pretty simple.

HOWEVER (before yall freak out at me), there are a few things to consider. A_68 has a point because the us Constitution was designed primarily to protect the people from the government. Now, yes the USC gives us unlimited rights to speech but there are some limits; for example libel (written defamation) and slander (oral defamation).

I am allowed to libel and slander anyone I want, but they are also allowed to take me to court for damages incurred if they can prove libel or slander took place from me about them. That of course is settled in a civil courtroom between two parties neither of which is the state.

According to the USC I am allowed to yell fire in a theater as much as I want, however in my personal opinion, if people are hurt or trampeled I should be held responsible for my actions. I am not saying my speech should be limited, however if my speech directly causes the erosion of life, liberty, or property of others then I think that there is some civil issues (lawsuits) that would be fairly easy to prove.

And yes I can stand on my front porch or even on public property and say I hate black people, or that all crackers are stupid, and be perfectly within the law. I might get beat up or ugly looks, but there is no such thing as hate speech. I would never say things like that and it is sad to think anyone would, but in this country it is their right.

You can also give false testimony to anyone you see fit unless you are a business, a public official (and a few selected others), or if you are under oath.

Personally I tink the public education system in this country should be abolished. But that is a topic for another time.
;D

Free speech does not exist. If u wish to blashpeme God, u can do it, if u wish to slander Jesus, u can do it. If u wish to speak every so called contradiction in the bible on worldwide TV, u can do it

Wanna give creation evidence? Nope sorry cant do that
Preach the gospel? Soory cant do that either
Say ANYTHING positive about Christianity or the bible? NOPE not happening...

Free speech only exists as long as ur not promoting Christianity. OR getting at a 'minority' group. Speak anything against evolution and ur a fanatic who hates science. Speak against homosexuality Ur a filthy bigot.

c my point?

Well that's just majority rules there. Having free speech doesn't mean that people will agree with you. It just means you aren't going to get shot by the government for saying it.

For example: You can go to school and start passing out fliers with scriptures on them standing inbetween a gay rights activist and an a pro choice enthusiest, and paople may or may not take your fliers, you are exercizing your right to free speech. But if someone with authority comes directly to you and tells you that you can't do that there, and they say nothing to the other 2, that is keeping you from your rights.

Just because people don't listen, doesn't mean you don't have your right to yell and scream it out. You have to remember that we are the aliens in a secular world and our beliefs contradict everything they know and are use to.

CJ

You have to remember that we are the aliens in a secular world and our beliefs contradict everything they know and are use to.



Exactly, free speech only applied to them. Not to us. Pick a third world country, say something Christian and u get shot, beaten killed and ur family have their intestines ripped out.
Not as severe at that over here mind u. But I know it will be at some stage.

Freedom of speech exists as long as u dnt speak against
Evolution, Communism, Marxism, Humanism, Gay rights, Pro-choice, other religions or a million other things!

Skynes, In America you have the right to speak out against those things. That doesn't mean that the media will flock to cover it. (Tho they sure covered the anti Bush rally yesterday.)Or when they do they wont mock you for it. But we have the right to speak without being locked up in jail, or as in many other countries tortured or killed because we disagree.
I see people speak out against all of the things you mentioned without being locked up. There are many times that people don't speak up because they don't want to deal with the flack that they will get for doing so.
As far as school goes you have the right to say that you don't believe what they are teaching. Begin your sentances with "Tho unproven by fact some scientists believe (or theorize)" It's when you make a threat like "death to so and so" in school yes you should be in trouble.

Skynes, In America you have the right to speak out against those things.

If you speak out against something and get flack for it, then its not freedom of speech. If it was freedom of speech u would be allowed ur opinion WITHOUT getting hassled about it. But ppl DO get hassled about it, so its not free. There's a price to pay for it.

As far as school goes you have the right to say that you don't believe what they are teaching. Begin your sentances with "Tho unproven by fact some scientists believe (or theorize)" It's when you make a threat like "death to so and so" in school yes you should be in trouble.


thats only partly true. Yes u can speak against it, but teachers are being told to teach evolution as FACT not as theory. I have a book upstairs who's sole purpose is to undo what a 'teacher training' book does. Tell teachers methods to teach evolution as fact.
As far as they're concerned, Evolution is a fact and is incontestible. Go agaisnt it and ur a religious bigoted fanatic who wants us to return to the dark ages

Free speech does not exist. If u wish to blashpeme God, u can do it, if u wish to slander Jesus, u can do it. If u wish to speak every so called contradiction in the bible on worldwide TV, u can do it

Wanna give creation evidence? Nope sorry cant do that
Preach the gospel? Soory cant do that either
Say ANYTHING positive about Christianity or the bible? NOPE not happening...

Free speech only exists as long as ur not promoting Christianity. OR getting at a 'minority' group. Speak anything against evolution and ur a fanatic who hates science. Speak against homosexuality Ur a filthy bigot.

c my point?

Freedom of speech lets us talk, preach, say positive things about Christianity without GOVERNMENT PERSICUTION, it is the media that persicutes us for what we say (at least in the USA). I will not be thrown in jail for saying homosexuality is wrong, but the media will call me a bigot. I can speak out against anything, but there will always be someone in the media who will call me old fashioned, a bigot, a fundamentalist... It isn't (or at least shouldn't) the governments place to restrict what I speak for or against, but the media makes sure that what I say isn't accepted if it goes against popular thoughts (like accepting homosexuals).

If you speak out against something and get flack for it, then its not freedom of speech. If it was freedom of speech u would be allowed ur opinion WITHOUT getting hassled about it. But ppl DO get hassled about it, so its not free. There's a price to pay for it.
[quote]

Having freedom of speech doesn't mean you won't get flack for it. It means you have the right to talk about it without fear of opression, imprisonment or, death. Look at when Homosexuals first came out and started speaking and how widely unaccepted it was. Over time, schools started teaching of how it's ok to experiment and how it became more "normal" in our culture.

The Bible states directly that Xians won't be accepted in this world, so don't expect it to happen. We are the aliens and we are the ones who are out of place here.

CJ

I don't expect it to happen. Point I'm trying to make that if Freedom of speech really exists then we WOULDNT get hassled for saying what we do! If we have to pay the price of verbal persecution to say our beliefs then its not FREE! It's pay for your speech! Not freedom of speech.

Wouldn't that be a paradoxal event. Saying things that don't offend anyone, people would be offended if I said that communism is wrong just as I am offended when people say that Christianity is a load of trash. If they were not allowed to call Christianity trash, than there would be no freedom of speech (freedom isn't free).

Let me restate this, Freedom of Speech is there so that the government cannot punish people for saying things, like "I believe the president is focusing more attention on 'Issue 1' rather than the more important 'Issue 2'." But there is a limit that freedom of speech protects, you can get in trouble for lying to police.

Very true, I was speaking in the literal constitutional meaning of freedom of speech. If what Sky is talking about were true, that would be one messed up world. Gays, pro-choice, and liberals being able to say whatever they want and not have anyone tell them they are wrong. Xians preaching the word without any persecution. We would never get anywhere because no one would be able to listen to anyone else for fear that they might speak out against them.

Unless of course, he was talking about some fantasy world where only Xian's would be allowed to talk freely about anything and everyone else had to listen without arguing. ;)

CJ

As far as school goes you have the right to say that you don't believe what they are teaching. Begin your sentances with "Tho unproven by fact some scientists believe (or theorize)" It's when you make a threat like "death to so and so" in school yes you should be in trouble.


thats only partly true. Yes u can speak against it, but teachers are being told to teach evolution as FACT not as theory. I have a book upstairs who's sole purpose is to undo what a 'teacher training' book does. Tell teachers methods to teach evolution as fact.
As far as they're concerned, Evolution is a fact and is incontestible. Go agaisnt it and ur a religious bigoted fanatic who wants us to return to the dark ages

I couldn't agree with you more on that. And many people get religously discriminated against because of that. Alot of times teachers cross the line with that and the students don't realize it. And not just science classes but in others. There's a movement going on now to try and get Intelegent Design taught in schools. I'd like to see more people get involved with it.

Actually, in Ohio, they are no longer allowed to teach the theory of Evolution as fact. Thats one point for the good guys!

CJ

Actually, in Ohio, they are no longer allowed to teach the theory of Evolution as fact. Thats one point for the good guys!



:o Really!? thats gud to hear! bout time ppl had some sense!

That is good to hear.
Well, my opinon on freedom of speech.... Any kind should/could not be violated. No matter if its againest somebody.

We have free speech here. too bad so few americans have anything worthwhile to say. no im not talking about ppl on this board, im talking about tv and talk shows on the radio.....

There is a man who owns an RV park on the west side of town. He has put up a sign in the front that says "Do you support our troops or do you support Islam? You cannot support both."

Now besides the incongrueties inherent in this statement (what about the followers of Islam serving in the armed forces?), this is obviously hateful towards about a fifth of the world.

Well, my friends and I decided we needed to do something about it. We told our english teacher, who (along with Mickey, his roommate from Germany who is awesome) went to talk to the guy about the sign. Well, the guy wasn't there but two ladies were. In the words of Mickey: "Those ladies were giving me s___, so I was like "What the f___?" and left. Those people have something wrong- they are DEFICIENT, there is something wrong with their heads. I was reading their website [BTW: www.freedompoint.net (http://www.freedompoint.net) ] and the thing is, no intelligent person would say such things. I wanted to ask him, "What are you thinking? Explain to me why you say these things? But there were only ladies giving me s___." (You to think all that in a German accent to get the full effect.)

Well, the next day, two of my friends went over there and pulled the sign off the plywood it was attached to. They rolled it up with a letter explaining why they did it. The guy came out and chased them half a mile. Last night, we went to check it out again, and he had put the sign back up- with Christmas lights. ::) .

I don't know what has become of the sign now, but my point is this: he has every right to put that sign up. And I support that right. But I feel that against what I feel is hate speech, I also have the right to make my point.

I don't exactly see anything wrong with the information posted on the website you linked... or a sign that reads what you say it did. Obviously hateful? I must be an ignoramous because I see nothing blatantly hateful about it.

And I really don't see how you can use 'free speech' as a defense to harrass someone who has posted a silly sign.

That really kinda sucks, actually. :-

I don't know what has become of the sign now, but my point is this: he has every right to put that sign up. And I support that right. But I feel that against such hate speech, I also have the right to make my point.


However, you do not have the right to damage private property. You have the right to respond to speech with speech, not action. Which is sort of the point of "freedom of speech". Nobody's freedom of speech trumps anybody else's. You have no right to forcibly silence him anymore than he has a right to knock out your teeth for calling him a bigot.

I don't know what has become of the sign now, but my point is this: he has every right to put that sign up. And I support that right. But I feel that against such hate speech, I also have the right to make my point.


However, you do not have the right to damage private property. You have the right to respond to speech with speech, not action. Which is sort of the point of "freedom of speech". Nobody's freedom of speech trumps anybody else's. You have no right to forcibly silence him anymore than he has a right to knock out your teeth for calling him a bigot.


HAHAHA I knew people would say stuff like this. And from an objective perspective, I am inclined to agree. Although if you believe what is said on that website and others, you stereotype Islam by the fundamentalists. It's like basing all of Chrisitanity on the Army of God.

I know pouring paint on the sign was illegal. But I didn't actually pour the paint. And a case could be made for civil disobedience.

Also, that sign was blatently hateful towards Muslims. I don't really understand how you can make this an issue.

BTW, if he puts it up again, our next "plan of attack" is to go sing Christmas carols to him. I think that definately falls under the category of free speech.

Also, that sign was blatently hateful towards Muslims. I don't really understand how you can make this an issue.

Actually, wasn't the sign protesting the religion of Islam itself? I don't support Islam. In fact, I believe it to be a false religion leading many people to hell. Does that mean I hate muslims? Absolutely not.

Dude. There's a difference between vandalism and free speech.

I actually have to agree with that site. Islam HAVE declared themselves enemies of the western world. So that sign I have no problem with. It seems you were the one declaring hate messages more than him. Your denying him the very thing you claim to be using - free speech.
Another reason why I think free speech doesn't exist. Everything you say and do is going to provoke an attack from someone, I can't combine that with free speech. The two are incompatible.

I don't think you are grasping the spirit of the sign.

I already said that upon furthur consideration molesting the sign is like the death penalty: stupid, childish, and contrary to the message we are trying to get across.

We support the war against Islam terror.

Against Islam terror. Terrible grammar, but that's not important. This guy apparently does not have a problem with Christian terror (a la Army of God) or Israeli (NOTE: not Jewish -- Israeli) terror.

This site is dedicated to the men and women of America (USA) who are defending our freedoms today and everyday in war against Islam.

And those Muslims in the armed forces?
War against Islam isn't really defending our freedoms... What freedoms has Islam taken away?

We pay tribute, we honor, we support and give thanks to our defenders.

They are not defenders. They go because they were sent, and attacking a country does not constitute defense.

We honor those who gave their lives in service and defense of their and our country.

I honor the innocents that our troops have slaughtered. Honestly, we have the most advanced technology, we can drop bombs soooo precisely... but we aim at restaurants Saddam "might" have been at, and drop cluster bombs (what is up with those? ::) Death and destruction... of CHILDREN!).

Who has declared themselves our enemy and vowed to destroy US and our country, and if they cannot destroy US then strike terror in our communities and country?

Islam

I must have missed this. I recall al-Qaeda doing so, but Islam in general? No.

They are theologically motivated and driven, killing and dying in pursuit of an Islamist Jihad against the rest of the world.. To comprehend Islamist terrorism, one must understand its theological and ideological roots.

Only the extreme minority of radical fundamentalists. Also, it's theological and ideological roots are Judeo-Christian, what is this guy talking about?

Western civilization is a constant and flagrant reminder of Islam's failure in science, medicine, philosophy, the arts literature and technology

They invented the zero. Their archetecture is amazing. I don't buy this "they're just jealous of us" bit. They don't want to become like us. They want the OPPOSITE.

The Islam/Muslim world lacks the military and scientific-technological ability to confront Western civilization head on.

The only way the West can be confronted is through international terrorism.

Islamist/Muslim leaders may differ on fine details of the terror thrusts, but they all agree the United States and Western civilization must be destroyed.

Islam/Muslim countries can not build an airplane, but they can hijack ours and destroy it.

Islam/Muslim countries can not build a truck, but they can build a truck-bomb and kill.

11 September required so much planning and effort... this guy would never have been able to hijack a taxicab and drive it into the WTC. I love how the owner of an RV park is taking credit for all the achievements of Western Civilization. ::)

That is why I disagree with the sign and his site. Also, I don't hate him at all, I just find his views arrogant, illogical, and above all fearful. The fundamentalist terrorists have obviously succeeded, America is frightened, so we attack.

I don't think you are grasping the spirit of the sign.
And I think you may be reaching a little too far to grasp what you have...

The fundamentalist terrorists have obviously succeeded, America is frightened, so we attack.


I seem to recall our country being attacked in the name of the god of Islam [little g emphasized] and thousands of people losing their lives. I think it's fair to feel a little threatened. Extremists or not, Islam isn't the nice, happy, brotherly-love promoting religion that people are trying to convince us of. It's roots are jealousy and spite [Ishmael and Isaac here] and looking for harmony between the two religions is pretty futile. It's a conflict that is thousands of years in the making and we're not going to change that no matter how much we try to white-wash it.

A major part of Islam is the killing of all infidels (non-muslims). They've practically declared war on everyone under the sun. Their religion is forced on ppl, if someone in an islamic country converts away from Islam they get tortured, beaten and killed.

Today my friends and I went over there to talk to the guy. I seriously doubt that he is the one who wrote the dribble on the website, he is too articulate for that. Basically, we agreed on all the facts, like how America supports people like bin Laden and Hussein until it is no longer convinient. The main difference is that he sees extremism in all Muslims while I believe that sort of thing is only found in a small minority of fundamentalists. He even stated that the people at the local mosque, if given the chance, would cut off our heads. I just don't see that happening.

I know that the actions of some Muslims have made it seem like all followers of Islam are hateful and want to kills all infidels. If you look at some bits of Christianity, though, don't you see the same thing? The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Burning Times, Manifest Destiny, the KKK, the Holocaust... these all show the mentality of "I am right, you are wrong, you must die." Not at all following the example of Jesus Christ. I'm not saying Mohammed was a wonderful man, but I feel it is wrong to demonize some good people simply because they pray to Allah.

The guy talked to us for almost two hours, and was very kind and willing to listen and explain his side of it. He invited us to stop by again later, and told us to read up on some things over the break. I have respect fo this man, now, even though I still don't agree with him. I feel that his sign is still out of line, and that no one driving by is going to understand his point unless they too stop and talk for 2 hours.

Isn't there anyone out there who agrees, at least partly, with me?

Well, that's certainly a much more constructive, better process than vandalizing his property.

See, I equate his bigotry with the sort of racism that exists in Pittsburgh. People here are *not* out-and-out racists, like some parts of the Deep South still are. The KKK cannot come to Pittsburgh. That sort of racism just plain does not exist here. Instead, they're more like uninformed bigots, not bigots because they really hate black people, but bigots because they really just don't know any better. All they hear about on the news is about a shooting or a robbery in (heavily black) Homewood or the Hill District, and so they assume all blacks are into that sort of thing. And there is a subtle difference.

That's where most bigotry towards Islam lies, I believe. It's more like being an uninformed wingnut (regardless of how informed one thinks s/he may be) than it is harboring an intense hatred. The guy's just a dope who doesn't know any better. Same as many Muslims just don't know that not all Christians and Jews are out for their blood.

The problem is that when one holds a belief such as this, direct confrontation does not work, because the target just gets defensive, instead of receptive. Something as simple as a news clipping about the work a Muslim charity has done would probably be more effective than, say, trashing his sign or telling him that the correct way to think is the opposite of the way he does. He told you to do some "reading up", perhaps you should direct him towards some reading that he ought to be doing.

There's a movement going on now to try and get Intelegent Design taught in schools.


Do you mean intelligent? ;D

Sorry... I couldn't resist!

they're more like uninformed bigots, not bigots because they really hate black people, but bigots because they really just don't know any better.
The guy's just a dope who doesn't know any better. He told you to do some "reading up", perhaps you should direct him towards some reading that he ought to be doing.


Actually, this is about the first time I've had an arguement of this sort and felt like I was the lesser informed party. He was telling us about all the Muslim philosophers he's read and about how he was in Turkey and talked to all kinds of Muslims... He kept repeating that he'd heard all of our arguements before. There isn't really any chance of changing his mind, the only reason my friends and I plan on returning is that it is very interesting to talk to him, and we can maybe learn something from him.

and free speech is both you and him being able to discuss your respective sides without getting shot. :)

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)