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zeroneff
04-08-2006, 08:01 AM
I march from my school to another for this becuse my family came from mexico but nat only that but from spain... :P :P :o




What do you think about this?

terrasin
04-08-2006, 08:45 AM
I think the whole march protests are a joke. Most people involved with them are either ignorant of what is going on and just looking to whine about something, or they don't understand the issue at hand.

Illegal immigration is a very bad thing in this country. Especially now that a lot of companies are outsourcing jobs to other countries. By allowing illegal immigrants to stay in this country and work means that there are less jobs available for our own people here.

What I don't like to see is people are trying to turn this into a racist issue when it's nothing of the sort. This is the United States doing what it needs to. There are talks of ways to bring people into the country legally for work. There has been a lot of buzz about a temperary worker program which will allow immigrants to come work legally in this country. But people would rather do things their own way because they either don't want to pay taxes or just don't want to abide by the laws even though this would make their, and everyone elses lives a lot simpler.

That being said, if and when this program comes into effect, I totally support that immigrants who come into this country illegally be a federal offence and that anyone who helps an illegal immigrant is also a federal offence. We are creating ways for people to enter the country legally. If they don't do things the way they need to be done, then they don't need to be here.

CJ

cloroxmartini
04-08-2006, 08:57 AM
Another thread that belongs in Mars Hill but was posted in General Discussion. Tsk tsk tsk. :P

Yeah, I wish I could skip school too. But college students don't really have that luxury. Unlike high school students, our future depend a little more on our academic performance.

Anyway, the thing I find absolutely hilarious about this whole protesting thing is that these protesters aren't protesting for the rights of legal immigrant, they're protesting for the rights of illegal immigrants. Why are they standing up for something that is, well, illegal? I have no problem with the people that come into the country legally. I commend those who actually go through all the junk to get here legally. I do have a problem with the ones who hop over like it's some kind of free entree. That goes for immigrants of all countries, not just Mexico.

disciple
04-08-2006, 10:29 AM
I'm Spanish and I think all kinds of illegal immigration is ridiculous, and any who support it are suborning crime. The entire march idea is puzzling to me; "YAY! Let's support an illegal activity!"

skilltroks
04-08-2006, 11:48 AM
I have mixed emotions about this.

cloroxmartini
04-08-2006, 01:48 PM
I have mixed emotions about this.
What's so mixed about it?

zeroneff
04-08-2006, 02:00 PM
My family came illegaly in the early 1950

Now those that don't have money can't come


You see they get payed very very little
if you never been there you don't know how it's like
10 dollars is 108 peso'd
so to come you have to have at least $500.00
now they get payed o 12 pesos an hour or 1 an hour

cloroxmartini
04-08-2006, 03:41 PM
I'm sorry about that, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's illegal.

Isildur9473
04-08-2006, 03:50 PM
My family came illegaly in the early 1950

Now those that don't have money can't come


You see they get payed very very little
if you never been there you don't know how it's like
10 dollars is 108 peso'd
so to come you have to have at least $500.00
now they get payed o 12 pesos an hour or 1 an hour

k, that's special for them.

As much as immigration has helped this country in the past, right now it really doesn't need anymore. Close off the borders until we need more proles. It's quite simple really, once the middle class and lower class start to thin out, allow more immigrants to come in since eventually they'll rise to the middle class just like the ones from Europe did.

cloroxmartini
04-08-2006, 03:52 PM
Interesting way of putting things.

PinkGoo
04-08-2006, 04:32 PM
My family came illegaly in the early 1950

Now those that don't have money can't come


You see they get payed very very little
if you never been there you don't know how it's like
10 dollars is 108 peso'd
so to come you have to have at least $500.00
now they get payed o 12 pesos an hour or 1 an hour
That doesn't justify entering the country illegally.


And I don't think we should close off our borders, but entering the country should be much harder to accomplish than it is now.

skilltroks
04-08-2006, 04:39 PM
What's so mixed about it?
It would be nice to have people of different races and whatnot here in USA. Also, we allow citizens/people to live freely, and for the most part USA people have a good life. If USA allows immgrants to come USA allows them to have a good life. A con of Immgration is: if we allow to many Mexicans, par say, they are going to take over jobs which is cool 'n all, but it could lead to employement of USA people.

disciple
04-08-2006, 06:19 PM
It would be nice to have people of different races and whatnot here in USA.
This is not to say we don't already, right? A lot of the people here in America are descendants of immigrants of all different kinds.

theelectric3
04-08-2006, 06:29 PM
couldn't agree more with what CJ said.

terrasin
04-08-2006, 06:32 PM
around 92% of people living in the USA came from other countries. I'm not opposed to Mexicans or any other race living here if they do it legally. The problem is that the majority of mexicans who come to the USA anymore to work want to come in to work for 7 years, all the while sending the money they make back home to their families in Mexico so that when they go back, they don't have to work anymore. At least that is the way it is here on the east coast.

CJ

Isildur9473
04-08-2006, 07:45 PM
It would be nice to have people of different races and whatnot here in USA. Also, we allow citizens/people to live freely, and for the most part USA people have a good life. If USA allows immgrants to come USA allows them to have a good life. A con of Immgration is: if we allow to many Mexicans, par say, they are going to take over jobs which is cool 'n all, but it could lead to employement of USA people.

I hate that whole "embrace diversity" garbage. Every other week at school we have some assembely where we learn about the customs of some other race, that's just SO important.

I don't care about what people do in Mexico, sorry. That's real darn special they have their own culture, but so do we. You don't see other countries saying they need to embrace "American Diversity".

cloroxmartini
04-08-2006, 07:56 PM
Again I have to ask myself: why is this not in Mars Hill already?

And yeah, I agree with Greg.

Isildur9473
04-08-2006, 07:57 PM
Again I have to ask myself: why is this not in Mars Hill already?

LETS GO A FEW MORE TIMES! YEAH! THAT'LL MAKE EM DO IT!

:\

PinkGoo
04-08-2006, 07:58 PM
Again I have to ask myself: why is this not in Mars Hill already?
You perfectionist, you...

cloroxmartini
04-08-2006, 07:58 PM
Alright, let's do that!

terrasin
04-08-2006, 08:52 PM
I hate that whole "embrace diversity" garbage. Every other week at school we have some assembely where we learn about the customs of some other race, that's just SO important.

I don't care about what people do in Mexico, sorry. That's real darn special they have their own culture, but so do we. You don't see other countries saying they need to embrace "American Diversity".
I totally agree. If you want to live in this country, then you have to embrace OUR culture. We will not conform to embrace theirs to make them happy. Mind you, there is a fine line to this. I've lived in cities full of culture. Where the Italians are Italian, the Greeks are Greek, etc. They keep to their culture. It's when some people move here and expect us to respect their ways when they conflict with our own American ways.

For instance a while back there was a lady who was islamic or some middle eastern country who was attempting to get a drivers license. Some of you may remember it cause it was big news at the time. Anyway, this lady refused to take off her face covering to have her photo taken for the license, which is US LAW. She threw a fit about how it was against her religion. And so there was this big spiel about how the US has to respect her religion and blah blah blah. This is not an islamic country, so either deal with it, or go back to the country you came from.

Another annoyance is people who come to this country and refuse to learn and speak english. grrrrr

CJ

zeroneff
04-09-2006, 01:20 PM
Well first of Mexican have dark skin thet comes from INDIAN or native american's blood so um why did we let so people that are not native that we can't cross a cetin poin't i mean they or we were hear first
Aztic is the natives of Mexico so come on

terrasin
04-09-2006, 02:39 PM
It's a matter of being born in this country. For instance, if a person of native american ethnicity is born outside of the US, and their parents are not US residents, than that person will not be a resident of this country due to just their race. It's not a race issue. It's an issue of who are legal residents of the country and who are not.

CJ

Isildur9473
04-09-2006, 03:55 PM
Well first of Mexican have dark skin thet comes from INDIAN or native american's blood so um why did we let so people that are not native that we can't cross a cetin poin't i mean they or we were hear first
Aztic is the natives of Mexico so come on

In the 1800's, The United States took the land from the Indians and Mexicans through various ventures like the Mexican Cession. What's done is done, borders are set.

somasoul
04-09-2006, 05:17 PM
I totally agree. If you want to live in this country, then you have to embrace OUR culture.

Right.........like the English did when they got here.....

oh, wait.

Or the Italians, or the Russians or the Jews or *gasp* blacks.

Golly day, people. I live in a neighborhood that is the second highest populated area in the country with Jewish people. Their culture is very different.

And Baltimore city (not 10 miles from my home) is 67% black. You can't tell me that most of those folk are very similar, they aren't. Have any of you ever eaten "Lake Trout".........didn't think so. (Yeah, it seems racist......I know. I'm just pointing it out that there are some major differences.)

How about the folk in the mid-west, they are very different from city people.

Or Californias. Anyone in their right mind would want to make California it's own country and call it "Loony-Land".

Let's face it, America is a mixed bag. I welcome everyone who ascribes to our ideals of a free market, democracy and fairness. They don't have to seem sane. "Normal" or be white or any other other color. We don't own them and believe it or not no one owns the border any more then they can enforce it. We can't enforce the border therefore we don't own it.

asparagus
04-09-2006, 08:03 PM
I think the whole march protests are a joke. Most people involved with them are either ignorant of what is going on and just looking to whine about something, or they don't understand the issue at hand.I feel that is a rather sweeping asumption, and I would strongly but respectfully disagree. It has been a long time since the US has experienced such protests on such a massive scale.
Illegal immigration is a very bad thing in this country. Especially now that a lot of companies are outsourcing jobs to other countries. By allowing illegal immigrants to stay in this country and work means that there are less jobs available for our own people here.While I certainly don't favor illegal immigration, I think it is also important to recognize the scholarly economic work that has been done on the impact of illegal immigration on the US economy, and I think in general the research has tended to disagree with what you are arguing here...
That being said, if and when this program comes into effect, I totally support that immigrants who come into this country illegally be a federal offence and that anyone who helps an illegal immigrant is also a federal offence. We are creating ways for people to enter the country legally. If they don't do things the way they need to be done, then they don't need to be here.
CJ
I think the house version of the bill talked about making it a felony, as opposed to a federal crime. I actually thought this part of the bill made the least sense, since felonies mean serving more than two years in prison, especially considering that the cost of housing an inmate in prison per year is going for around $25,000-$30,000. That's $50,000 minimum per illegal immigrant that you and I shouldn't be putting our tax money for (assuming they only serve two years). Furthermore, considering the conditions and wages in Mexico, an illegal immigrant that gets caught might get paid higher wages doing jail work and have better housing than they did in Mexico.

It's things like this where I am just amazed at some of the "feel good" solutions that lawmakers come up with that have no real depth.

terrasin
04-09-2006, 10:44 PM
Right.........like the English did when they got here.....
*snip*
You obviousely threw a gasket at the first line and didn't read one sentence after that. Here is your clue for today:

I did not say that people should abandon their culture if they wish to live in this country. But our countries laws that have been literally set in stone should not have to conform to outsiders to make them happy. This country was started by mainly, a foundation of Christians. Granted, I know not all of them were Christians, but the majority of them were and being so, whether some people wish to agree or debate it, installed their belief and faith into our government.

Being so, everyone in this country is and should be allowed to practice whatever religion they so desire as long as it abides by the laws that are established in this country. If the law states that someone can not wear a face covering in their drivers license picture, then that person will either abide by the law and remove it, or not get a license. End of story.

There was something I posted a while back that hit home with this. Here it is again:

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or his culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America.

Our population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multi cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.

As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.

If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But, once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

CJ

terrasin
04-09-2006, 11:04 PM
I feel that is a rather sweeping asumption, and I would strongly but respectfully disagree. It has been a long time since the US has experienced such protests on such a massive scale.
Yes, and all the reports I've been reading, these protests have been led by either mexicans themselves, kids skipping class to go join the party, and politically active College students who have the mentality that if they stand on the street corner protesting the war in Iraq, that Bush will suddenly turn on the TV and see them on the news and say "OMG! WE HAVE TO PULL THE TROOPS OUT NOW BECAUSE A BUNCH OF IGNORANT COLLEGE KIDS ARE STANDING ON THE STREET CORNER WITH CANDLES!!!"... As stupid as that sounds, it's the truth. I've heard some interesting stories from my pastor talking about when he was in the gifted dorms in college and would constantly be invited to those things... anyway. Moving right along.

I'm not saying that each person protesting is doing so without honest motive. But the majority of these highschoolers, college students, and mexicans who are on the lines don't understand the first thing about what is going on. And instead of helping to come up with ways to fix the situation and make themselves heard, they just make the situation worse.

While I certainly don't favor illegal immigration, I think it is also important to recognize the scholarly economic work that has been done on the impact of illegal immigration on the US economy, and I think in general the research has tended to disagree with what you are arguing here...
Go try living in southern california and trying to get a job so you can pay your bills. I've worked in rock quarries and in factories there and the majority of the time, I was the only person who could speak english or fill out a W4. Or go drive through Jersey Shore in the mornings durring the week. There is a street there that literally thousands of illegals line up for every morning waiting for people to give them work for the day. When you get back, you might see that all that research they have is pretty much useless when it comes to reality.

I think the house version of the bill talked about making it a felony, as opposed to a federal crime. I actually thought this part of the bill made the least sense, since felonies mean serving more than two years in prison, especially considering that the cost of housing an inmate in prison per year is going for around $25,000-$30,000. That's $50,000 minimum per illegal immigrant that you and I shouldn't be putting our tax money for (assuming they only serve two years). Furthermore, considering the conditions and wages in Mexico, an illegal immigrant that gets caught might get paid higher wages doing jail work and have better housing than they did in Mexico.

It's things like this where I am just amazed at some of the "feel good" solutions that lawmakers come up with that have no real depth.
You're right on the felonies. I was using the incorrect word there. But keep in mind that these people, for the majority, are looking to raise families. That is a little hard to do in jail. And even if they do get on a work program, jail isn't free for the inmate either.

Bush now claims that the Democrats are the ones stalling the creation of the new programs for immigration... go figure, right? I think a legal worker program would be a very good solution if it's done properly. The problem them will be getting mexicans who are willing to do things the proper way. It's a pretty big deal and will take time to work out all the details. In the meantime, ideas are all they can do till they find something they think will work.

CJ

terrasin
04-11-2006, 07:26 AM
In addition, these people aren't protesting new laws. They are protesting laws that already exist. They are protesting that illegals should, in fact, be allowed within the boarders of this country.

I found this to be a very interesting read...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191142,00.html

I like the way one person said "There is no way to come over legally. If there was, do you think people would like to be in the desert risking their lives?"

People come to this country legally all the time. The issue is that these people don't want to go through the legal process we have in place whether the reason is that it takes too long or they don't want to lose their residency in their home country. But as I stated before, there are good reasons why we have these laws in palce.

CJ

timmyrotter
04-11-2006, 01:21 PM
this is rediculous!!! i am so mad about all this immigration crap!!! i work manual labor for a concrete business... yes im the only full-blooded American left doing it... but anyways, i run across illegals all the time, and you can tell easily, cause they talk about how bad it is that thier children dont want to speek spanish... you are in America! ADAPT TO OUR CULTURE!!! ah!!! this makes me so mad, why the health care problems? why all the social programs? cause illegals come here and then someone gets hurt or has a baby, and the government HAS to help, it is law... this is not the current administrations fault, it started in the Regan years when he granted amnesty to the illegals here...

now there are approx. 11-12 million illegals here (im not sure if that is just mexican or what) they just got extended... that is dumb... LOOK AT THIS, if all criminals were set free right now, what would happen to the crime rate? not only would they repeat thier offense cause they know there will be no consequences, but others will look at them and say "hey if they got away with it, so can we!"... same thing will happen with immigration, there will be a massive influx of illegal immigrants, and no one will do anything about it!

protect your country, burn a mexican flag... protest illegal amnesty!

cloroxmartini
04-11-2006, 04:02 PM
Dude, I don't care what flag it is, flag burning is not cool. Unless you were being sarcastic.

somasoul
04-11-2006, 05:22 PM
I think some of these posts are frightening. These people are human beings who we are demanded by God to love. We have no laws on the books that require people to speak english. Speaking English is an option whether you like it or not. Your annoyance at that their "quirks" does not justify the enaction of legislation to jail people. Everyone wants more legislation I wonder why. Have we gone mad?

Someone said that for every illegal that comes over there is one less job for an American. HAHAHA!!!! I laugh hysterically at the absurdity of such comments.........(Sorry, I know it seems rude. But it's such an ignorant comment). The free market and capitalism provide jobs on an 'as needed' basis. The more people you have living in an area the more jobs you have. People see a need for another grocery store.......one gets erected. More people need homes. More get built. People need more cars, the plant increases production and hires more workers.

In fact, as more people enter the country and start business' it increases competition. Competition spurs creativity and new innovation. Innovation preceeds high quality of living. So in fact, by allowing more people into the country we are encouraging our own well being so long as the new jobs Latinos have here are more productive then the jobs they had in Mexico. And you can take that to the bank.

In a global market system location of manufacture isn't as important as access to manufactured goods. And if their presence here increases manufactured goods then everyone who has access to the global market experiences a rise in quality of life. Not just Americans, but people all over the world. In fact, our rise in quality of life, through the purchase of goods, is the best way to ward off global poverty!

Anyway, look at the illegals as one step closer to ending poverty on an international level, all the while decreasing the dollar value thus enabling you to purchase more video games.


(Oh, and for those of you who want to ship these people back to where they came from. Feel free. But don't you dare send the bill my way.)

disciple
04-11-2006, 05:30 PM
I don't know how it goes where you live, but in my state, when the majority vote goes to giving extra funds to education, another tourist venue pops up; the way it works here is you only get hired if you're liked, and they'll only open up more jobs if they have money to pay them. As is, around here, they hire less employees (and the ones they do are incompetent), pay them less, and keep money for themselves.

zeroneff
04-11-2006, 06:30 PM
this is rediculous!!! i am so mad about all this immigration crap!!! i work manual labor for a concrete business... yes im the only full-blooded American left doing it... but anyways, i run across illegals all the time, and you can tell easily, cause they talk about how bad it is that thier children dont want to speek spanish... you are in America! ADAPT TO OUR CULTURE!!! ah!!! this makes me so mad, why the health care problems? why all the social programs? cause illegals come here and then someone gets hurt or has a baby, and the government HAS to help, it is law... this is not the current administrations fault, it started in the Regan years when he granted amnesty to the illegals here...

now there are approx. 11-12 million illegals here (im not sure if that is just mexican or what) they just got extended... that is dumb... LOOK AT THIS, if all criminals were set free right now, what would happen to the crime rate? not only would they repeat thier offense cause they know there will be no consequences, but others will look at them and say "hey if they got away with it, so can we!"... same thing will happen with immigration, there will be a massive influx of illegal immigrants, and no one will do anything about it!

protect your country, burn a mexican flag... protest illegal amnesty!

So if you were to saw me talking in spanish with my family you think im an illegal:(

zeroneff
04-11-2006, 06:37 PM
Is it because of my skin color
The Way I Talk
Were NOT TAKING YOU”RE JOD’S


AMERICA WOULD NOT LAST A DAY WITH OUT US!!!

Who picks you’re crops
Build you’re house or school’s
I pay over 15,000 dollars of taxes
SO what is it…

terrasin
04-11-2006, 06:51 PM
Exactly, not to mention that we pay, out of our taxes, when one of these people get hurt, go to jail, pay for their kids public education, etc.

As for Mr. Baltimore up there and his comment on more jobs for Americans; it's flawed. The days of mom and pop shops opening in areas are gone. Walmart is creating a monopoly in the market with it's huge supercenters that can provide for hundreds of thousands of people while undercutting the competition causing stores to close and unemployment in areas to rise as these stores close.

You've obviously never lived out west where this issue is the worst, and it's not getting better for anyone. We live in times when 50% of the tech jobs in the country are going to be outsourced to India and other countries that have cheaper pay rates so companies can save money. Where the biggest manufacturer of automobiles, GM, has just layed off over hundreds of it's workers because they were going to take a loss. The unemployment rate 3 years ago was the highest it's been in decades and it's currently "getting better".

Factories are cutting costs by getting machines that do the work of 50 men and only need 2 to run it. The funny thing is, cost of production is down, cost of supplies are down, cost of labor is down, prices are going up, and profits are going up for those in the corner offices. All you have to do is look at the quarterly profits of these companies. Simple research.

While unemployment is "getting better", it's still not good. And in the meantime, Americans who are struggling to make ends meet are having to compete against illegals for jobs. Like I said in a previous post, I worked with these people while I was in California. I've seen first hand how it effects the economy.

As I stated before, I am not against people coming into this country if they do it the proper way. There are several options they have to work with at this point and I think they should look at all aspects so they can balance it out so prices don't go up. The main thing is though that we need to have control of the population of "guests" we have coming into the country.

One idea I had would be making farm and aggy field jobs in southern areas exempt from the minimum wage so that we can keep the prices of vegetables down. They are very low paying jobs already and I think that they need to stay that way.

CJ

Isildur9473
04-11-2006, 06:57 PM
It's really simple, put up land mines and shoot people who try to run across. I don't mean to sound barbaric, but things have to be done. If people want to enter the country legally, all the power to them. However, if they want to enter illegaly, no, that shouldn't be tolerated.

I can't believe people have the tenacity to say that we should grant even more rights to illegal immigrants. If I went into a store and robbed it, I don't deserve to be let off with a slap on the hand, I broke the law and I should pay for it.

On the east coast, it's different besides Florida. The immigration problem is a real one out here, even in Idaho there are illegal immigrants coming in.

What if one of those immigrants was a terrorist? What if an entire terrorist cell ran the border and killed innocent people? Things have to be controlled.

This is different than the situation in the late 1800's when people from Europe were flooding in here. At that time we actually needed more people, now we don't.

terrasin
04-11-2006, 06:59 PM
So if you were to saw me talking in spanish with my family you think im an illegal:(
Zeroneff, we're more stressing the people who come into an english speaking country and blatantly refuse to learn the language. The way you talk to your family is your business, but when you are interacting with the public trying to communicate with english speaking people, that's where the problems start.

Is it because of my skin color
The Way I Talk
Were NOT TAKING YOU”RE JOD’S


AMERICA WOULD NOT LAST A DAY WITH OUT US!!!

Who picks you’re crops
Build you’re house or school’s
I pay over 15,000 dollars of taxes
SO what is it…
Don't turn this into a racist issue because that's not what it is. You've just proved what I have been saying all along about Americans having to compete for jobs against people who don't even hold a residency in this country. And as I said time and time again, we aren't saying we want mexicans to leave. We are saying we need to be able to know who these people are who are coming into our country, and we need to be able to control the population of how many guests we have here at once.

CJ

zeroneff
04-11-2006, 07:19 PM
Fine but the reson for this english thing is not the way to look at it walmart for example has employes that speak spanish and help those costumers and the don't find a need to learn english...
But when you take that out of the way and put a big sing that say's we do not speak english people think it's racist

I go to school and have freands that are illegals they have to lern english in 3 years in order to move up to the next grade

People pay rent and ladlords us the rent to pay taxes

how do i know well let's say that my perents own a few houses

Isildur9473
04-11-2006, 07:31 PM
Fine but the reson for this english thing is not the way to look at it walmart for example has employes that speak spanish and help those costumers and the don't find a need to learn english...
But when you take that out of the way and put a big sing that say's we do not speak english people think it's racist

Poor them, I'd hate to be that out of the loop. If they ever bothered to look at this country, the language is English. If you want to keep Spanish, speak it, that's great. But do not expect us to learn Spanish. Do not force us to hire people who can speak Spanish and English over those who can only speak English.

I go to school and have freands that are illegals they have to lern english in 3 years in order to move up to the next grade

People pay rent and ladlords us the rent to pay taxes

how do i know well let's say that my perents own a few houses

Well that's special, but that isn't federal taxes, or state taxes. The IRS has no way to keep up with the illegals if they're only paying local taxes through landlords.

zjf
04-11-2006, 07:45 PM
zeroneff: as someone in the Tech industry watching all of my job prospects go to someone in India for less than half of a minimum wage job here ($5.15/h), I understand why people are up in arms. I tried to start a computer business here because I disliked the outsourcing. I made $200 the entire year. Spent $500 in advertising alone, so I ended up spending all of my profits and then some to get business. My problem is that there are 3 large computer places here that have a monopoly and don't allow any small enterprises.

I know that a lot of the city is maintained by immigrants, legal or otherwise. I don't have a problem at all with the legal ones. They're fine. My issue is people coming in illegally and taking jobs from LEGAL Americans. It's not how this nation was designed to run. I live in Lubbock, TX, and as such, there is a LARGE Mexican population here. My career as a Systems Administrator isn't in danger from them, but it is in danger from people in India that Bush think can do a better job than me for cheaper. The problem is that we have that hit to the middle-upper-middle class folks, then the lower class folks don't have a job because illegal immigrants have them all.

As sad as it is, I have considered moving to another country just to get some job security. I filled out an application for a job as a Computer Tech Support a year or so ago, and between the time I applied and the time I was scheduled for an interview, my job vanished to someone in India. Please, explain how that is right and just? Even if I wanted a construction job or a foodservice job, I probably couldn't get one here. I've been a legal American since I was born 20 years ago. There's no reason why I should have to play second hand man to someone who isn't even legally here. I admire the fact that you're trying to better your lives. That's fine. Just do it legally is all we're asking.

timmyrotter
04-11-2006, 09:20 PM
zeroneff... honestly if you were speaking spanish with your family, i would probably think you (or someone you are with) is illegal... tell me are your parents legal? im not racist, im a protectionist though, and whether or not you agree with my viewpoints, no one can argue that coming over here illegally is ILLEGAL!!! that is what it means... and since were are in a country with no official language, "ilegal" for those people who speak only spanish... but right now, until the spinless, gutless, pigs in office (both parties) change the laws to reward the people who broke our nations law of immigration, which im sure they will. the issue stands at the fact that what they did was ILLEGAL, en espanol "ilegal", and why should people be rewarded amnesty for evil?

and about our law makers, a bunch of stining pansies!!! soon these 12 million illegals are going to have a vote, or their children will, so why would they want to go by what they really believe, and speak out agianst this dilema? then they wouldnt get those votes... such a corrupt nation! if any one senator, congressman, or governor speaks our against this outrage, i would vote him to the sole dictator of this country!!!

asparagus
04-11-2006, 09:30 PM
this is rediculous!!! i am so mad about all this immigration crap!!! i work manual labor for a concrete business...It's good to hear you are employed, because I am not. But it should be noted that I'm not blaming Mexico for my problems. yes im the only full-blooded American left doing it...Wow, ok, let's be careful not to sound too aerian... but anyways, i run across illegals all the time, and you can tell easily, cause they talk about how bad it is that thier children dont want to speek spanish... you are in America! ADAPT TO OUR CULTURE!!!Apparently they have, considering you can understand them... ah!!! this makes me so mad, why the health care problems? why all the social programs? cause illegals come here and then someone gets hurt or has a babyIsn't the baby an American citizen?? What's the problem if a latina has a baby in America.

You don't like that their kids don't like speaking spanish? You don't like that some American citizens are citizens because their immigrant parents gave birth to them in America? I hope I am just missing something here, because this all sounds like you've really got it out for these non-pure breds...

asparagus
04-11-2006, 09:35 PM
soon these 12 million illegals are going to have a vote, or their children willI mean, God forbid we give legitimate latino American citizens the vote...that'd just be downright constitutional.

Isildur9473
04-11-2006, 09:45 PM
I mean, God forbid we give legitimate latino American citizens the vote...that'd just be downright constitutional.

That's true, and that's something that needs to be changed. Just because someone's born in a hospital here, that shouldn't instantly make them a US citizen. Their parents should have to show either proof of citizenship, or something else that shows that they're in the process of getting a US citizenship at the time.

In parts of the Western United States, pregnant women run the border just so their kid can become a US citizen when it's born, making it easier for them to stay here. Something has to be done about that.

timmyrotter
04-11-2006, 10:08 PM
alex you are really picky... i wasnt braging about having a job, or blaming mexico for that... the point i was making is that the majority of concrete work is done by mexicans.

and the language thing. i dont think America should have to teach spanish to everyone, or change the road signs, every sign wouild have to be bilingual... how does that make sense? they want to be a part of America, they should adapt to our culture!

i dont know where you are trying to go with them havng a vote... why should people who came here illegally have a vote? and why should people who came here illegally have legal babies? then they wine and cry about how bad it would be if we had them deported... breaking up families that were built on illegal pretenses... oh... that just breaks my heart... everytime someone is convicted of rape, my heart goes out to them. every time someone kills a little child in cold blood and burys them under a cement hot tub slab, oh i feel so bad for the killer... or when a mother who screwed around with drugs, and got pregnant, oh poor poor lady, who is the victim, the mother or the aborted baby?

well America is the victim here, those 12 million laws that were broken when the illegals stayed past thier allowed time. these people cant be deported when they break the law either, when they rob a convinience store, rape someone. they dont even keep them in jail, cause they arent American. but they give them free health care... Americas downfall, stupid leaders...

asparagus
04-11-2006, 10:10 PM
That's true, and that's something that needs to be changed. Just because someone's born in a hospital here, that shouldn't instantly make them a US citizen. Their parents should have to show either proof of citizenship, or something else that shows that they're in the process of getting a US citizenship at the time.No, it's not something we should change and it's not practical or ethical to change it. Being born in American makes you and me American citizens...

I mean, what country would they be a citizen of? It'd be illegal for them to live here AND in Mexico?

timmyrotter
04-11-2006, 10:13 PM
I mean, God forbid we give legitimate latino American citizens the vote...that'd just be downright constitutional.

that was in response to me saying "soon those 12 million(illegals) will have a vote" are you listening to yourself??? why in the world would someone who came to this country illegall, have the power of a vote???

only in America..

timmyrotter
04-11-2006, 10:14 PM
No, it's not something we should change and it's not practical or ethical to change it. Being born in American makes you and me American citizens...

I mean, what country would they be a citizen of? It'd be illegal for them to live here AND in Mexico?

the point being they shouldnt have been born(here) in the first place...

asparagus
04-11-2006, 10:18 PM
alex you are really picky... i wasnt braging about having a job, or blaming mexico for that... the point i was making is that the majority of concrete work is done by mexicans.The point is, if anyone should be complaining about their job being stolen, it's me. I have a four year college education from a Big Ten University's honors college. But I'm not the victim here.

and the language thing. i dont think America should have to teach spanish to everyone, or change the road signs, every sign wouild have to be bilingual... how does that make sense? they want to be a part of America, they should adapt to our culture!
You want them to adapt to our culture?? Don't you hate our culture though? It's materialistic, self-centered, greedy, impatient, and anti-family. Those aren't requirements I want to find in immigrants. I think what you really mean is you want them to learn english...

i dont know where you are trying to go with them havng a vote... why should people who came here illegally have a vote? I'm not talking about illegals having the vote, only their American born children.

asparagus
04-11-2006, 10:19 PM
the point being they shouldnt have been born(here) in the first place...So what are we going to do about it? Do you think we should force abortions on illegals so their kids don't become American citizens?

timmyrotter
04-11-2006, 10:20 PM
thier American born children, as far as im concerned arent Americans...

timmyrotter
04-11-2006, 10:21 PM
no i think they shouldnt be here in the first place... there is no arguement in that! what they are dong here is Illegal!!!

i need to go to bed... I'm right by the way... and i got the last word in, at least that i will see...

asparagus
04-11-2006, 10:24 PM
thier American born children, as far as im concerned arent Americans...Right. I understand that.

The question is: what country do you want to have take them? What country should they be citizens of? Mexico? But they aren't citizens of Mexico, they would have to find a way to legally immigrate to Mexico.

asparagus
04-11-2006, 10:28 PM
no i think they shouldnt be here in the first place... there is no arguement in that! what they are dong here is Illegal!!!
So what if we made it legal? Then would you have any objections? I ask, because your entire argument seems to be that you are upset that they are doing something that is illegal.

zjf
04-12-2006, 03:37 AM
no, I don't think the issue at hand is legal mexican americans. the issue is that we have a lot of illegal ones coming here to have a kid here. we are being overpopulated as it is, and more and more illegal immigrants coming here isn't helping.

I really don't think anyone has a problem with immigrants coming here...that's how america was started for crying out loud! what we want is for them to come here legally as I stated before.

zeroneff
04-12-2006, 04:04 AM
Im legal and so are my perents but spanish is still needed why

well even if you know english no one know two lagueges perfictly so some people prefer to here something

zeroneff
04-12-2006, 04:05 AM
If you make hard for illegals to come, than make easyer for legals to come..

zeroneff
04-12-2006, 04:13 AM
do you even know how hard it is to become an legal imagrant

zeroneff
04-12-2006, 04:41 AM
Hola me llamo zeroneff


Oh i talk spanish come and take me
to my homecontry




Oh wait this is my home contry

timmyrotter
04-12-2006, 05:58 AM
So what if we made it legal? Then would you have any objections? I ask, because your entire argument seems to be that you are upset that they are doing something that is illegal.

why reward those who break the law?

timmyrotter
04-12-2006, 06:05 AM
well America is required to let people in, if they say "no" to immigrants, then they shouldnt be able to live here. what kind of respect for a country is it when the first thing you do coming here is breaking the law? how do you think they are going to act if they get away with breaking one law? more to come? there are ways to become legal, you can work on a farm for 2 years for a very low wage, hard labor, and then you can become legal. why dont more people do that? cause they have no morals, or respect for our declining country.

i cant believe you are even arguing with me, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ILLEGALS!!! "ILEGAL" remember? they shouldnt be here. they broke the law coming here. comprende senor?

somasoul
04-12-2006, 07:14 AM
Some of these suggestions by supposed 'Christians' scare me.

asparagus
04-12-2006, 07:14 AM
Timmy Rotter,
This is circular reasoning.

1) Illegal immigrants are bad.
2) Anyone who is an illegal immigrant breaks the law.
3) The fact that they break the law is proof that they are bad.
4) Therefore illegal immigrants are bad.

Has it occured to you that if we (hypothetically speaking) make it so illegal immigrants are no longer illegal, then your whole arguement breaks down?

You're whole argument, is "They are illegal immigrants, that's why they shouldn't be here." This argument, however, says nothing about the topic at hand, which is whether or not we should make it easier for people to become legal immigrants.

I am still waiting for your response on some other posts I have posted on here as well.

somasoul
04-12-2006, 07:17 AM
i cant believe you are even arguing with me, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ILLEGALS!!! "ILEGAL" remember? they shouldnt be here. they broke the law coming here. comprende senor?

Crossing the border illegally is a misdomeanor. Shoplifting is a felony.

Should we deport all shoplifters? Why do people care about other people wanting to come here to work? When you look at these people and you want to know if they are worthwhile ask yourself:

"Are these people an economic asset or liability?"

They are an asset. They provide services at low labor rates, services we all buy. And their labor is more valuable to us here then it is in Mexico. It's a win/win situation for everyone involved.

What's the problem?

mk kid
04-12-2006, 08:32 AM
but what does shoplifting have to do with illegal aliens? if you want to be a citizen of this country apply for citizenship and become legal. these people who are protesting are breaking the law. and what do you have to say to those who through the legal process and became verified citizens. do you just say oh sorry, you wasted a lot of time you could have saved time and protested. the laws state that in order to be a citizen of this country you have to apply for citizenship, comply with the laws and be an upstanding citizen. whats the problem? it is called people breaking the law, it is called why did my relatives back in the 1940's to escape Hitler's oppression, go through the process to become legal, while these people can just become citizens, by protesting. they are not asking for easier ways to become legal citizens. they are demanding to be made citzens or else. that is not asset, that is anarchy in a migrant worker suit. i didnt know this country was so cool on supproting anarchist? they could do like my ancestors did, who escaped much worse than what these people did. they are not doing this, they are choosing to demand and threat if they dont get what they want. and what they want is a free handout dont learn our laws, or anything about us just use us. in the 60's when the civil rights movement(which they compare their cause to) was occuring those men and women peacefully protested, and then made up their minds they would go through other avenues to accomplish their goals. they could do this, they dont. they sound like a poor mafia group waiting to get their henchmen on board and muscle us into their will. i hope they do protest on May 1 then when they dont come to their jobs they can be fired. the same thing you and me would get if we chose to protest instead of work.

I do have a question to ask those who support these people protesting, heva you ever lived along the border? why does this matter, because if you did you would know that most of those who have come across the border have done it illegally and are repeat offenders, in such actions from rape to burglary. my uncle who lives in texas, (and where i came from) has been robbed numerous times from people who are probably working now as migrant workers. oh and before any person starts bringing out the race card and saying i am a bigot, two of the three cities i lived in my friends were hispanic and they were legal citizens. these friends were ashamed of what these type of people were doing, and they called them criminals. oh and by the way my uncle's dad, worked with the migrant family working on his farm and helped them become citizens. reuben and gloria are two of the nicest people you would ever meet. and they are legal. i dont have trouble with hispanics i have trouble with law breakers.

Isildur9473
04-12-2006, 10:37 AM
Some of these suggestions by supposed 'Christians' scare me.

Christianity and government policy have no business having anything to do with one another.

disciple
04-12-2006, 11:03 AM
Why do people care about other people wanting to come here to work? When you look at these people and you want to know if they are worthwhile ask yourself:

"Are these people an economic asset or liability?"

They are an asset. They provide services at low labor rates, services we all buy. And their labor is more valuable to us here then it is in Mexico. It's a win/win situation for everyone involved.

What's the problem?
The problem is that people who are here illegally get a job that someone like me, a born US citizen, should get. As ZJ has stated numerous times, he is more than qualified to do many computer-related jobs, but many of his jobs are going out the window because companies would rather hire people who can barely read English for very low wages than people who actually know what they're talking about.

Ever called for tech support and gotten the run-around? Ever gotten stupid advice like "Try restarting your computer"? Probably not.

asparagus
04-12-2006, 11:53 AM
The problem is that people who are here illegally get a job that someone like me, a born US citizen, should get. As ZJ has stated numerous times, he is more than qualified to do many computer-related jobs, but many of his jobs are going out the window because companies would rather hire people who can barely read English for very low wages than people who actually know what they're talking about.

Ever called for tech support and gotten the run-around? Ever gotten stupid advice like "Try restarting your computer"? Probably not.Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with outsourced jobs, and they certainly aren't stealing anything other than menial service jobs. Outsourcing doesn't have anything to illegal immigration. If anything, it decreases immigration to the US because they then have jobs in their home country.

disciple
04-12-2006, 11:54 AM
Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with outsourced jobs, and they certainly aren't stealing anything other than menial service jobs. Outsourcing doesn't have anything to illegal immigration. If anything, it decreases immigration to the US because they then have jobs in their home country.
Yeah, I'm sorry, my mind went full circle and I missed my point by a million miles... this is why I need to stay out of Mars Hill.

shorty
04-12-2006, 11:57 AM
it would be one thing if they came into the country legally. but when its done illegally its soooo wrong. i think that they should all have to be deported back to their countries and if they want to come back then it should have to be done legally!

somasoul
04-12-2006, 12:25 PM
The problem is that people who are here illegally get a job that someone like me, a born US citizen, should get.

Uh, dude, you're not gaurunteed anything at birth. No one owes you anything, even a job.

And as I explained before the increase in population means an increase in production. The idea that there is a loss of jobs due to immigration is absurd!

If anything, the influx of low wage, low educated workers, means higher paying jobs for the rest of us.

somasoul
04-12-2006, 12:32 PM
but what does shoplifting have to do with illegal aliens?


You're arguing about the law and I'm telling you what the law says. The law says crossing illegally is a minor offense.

if you want to be a citizen of this country apply for citizenship and become legal.

Why should people have to file paperwork with any institution to travel God's earth at their own will? The government doesn't own this land, it merely manages it. And it does horrible job of it too, I might add.

I oppose government interference in the lives of peaceable people. I oppose beauracracy at any level that should interfere with my right do as I please. Likewise, should governmental goons and beauracrats think it best for you to decide how you should behave I'll stick up for your rights as well.

I don't need elightened rich folk in Washington DC to decide how I should live my life. And the fact that other people encourage such absurdities is beyond me.

Unregistered
04-12-2006, 01:38 PM
And as I explained before the increase in population means an increase in production. The idea that there is a loss of jobs due to immigration is absurd!



Tell that to the millions of people in China. An Increase in population does NOT cause more jobs automacticly..

amodman
04-12-2006, 01:55 PM
Hola me llamo zeroneff


Oh i talk spanish come and take me
to my homecontry




Oh wait this is my home contry

No offense zero, but stop spamming. We don't need 4 posts in a row with half a sentence each. I don't have the time or energy to type anything long right now, but to Alex and Tim, I've read this entire thread, and you both completely skipped over responding to any strong arguments made to weaker ones (yes, this is a debate/discussion, people present arguments). This irks me. Most of what I'd want to say to respond to you has already been said by CJ and, even, Greg and Disciple. Why repeat them when you glossed over those arguments in the first place. "Comments in this thread make me sad that they're made by supposed Christians," aren't helpful for discussion.

zeroneff
04-12-2006, 02:43 PM
Ok i am sorry but look in the eye's of an emagrint and tell me that they are crimenals

So of them are christians



think about it
I'm now going to lock this post at 9:30PM c/t 4/12/06


Im sorry for the way I acted

I am disapointed on some of you

Isildur9473
04-12-2006, 02:47 PM
Ok i am sorry but look in the eye's of an emagrint and tell me that they are crimenals

So of them are christians

That's very special that they're Christians. Too bad the government has no right to give special deals to religions, if it did, we'd be just as bad as all the other "religious" nations.

And they are criminals. A criminal is someone who breaks the law, which is what they're doing. Speaking of that, it should become a felony to run the border.

terrasin
04-12-2006, 02:52 PM
You're arguing about the law and I'm telling you what the law says. The law says crossing illegally is a minor offense.

Why should people have to file paperwork with any institution to travel God's earth at their own will? The government doesn't own this land, it merely manages it. And it does horrible job of it too, I might add.

I oppose government interference in the lives of peaceable people. I oppose beauracracy at any level that should interfere with my right do as I please. Likewise, should governmental goons and beauracrats think it best for you to decide how you should behave I'll stick up for your rights as well.

I don't need elightened rich folk in Washington DC to decide how I should live my life. And the fact that other people encourage such absurdities is beyond me.
I don't have a lot of time or patience right now. I'm tired and worn out and sore from moving tons of steel truss for stinking Disney On Icem so I will make this short and deal with it later.

The Bible also tells you to obey the laws of your land. It doesn't mean you have to like them or agree with them, but only to obey them. The law of this land says that illegal immigrants are not allowed to be in this country, work in this country, live in this country, or exist in this country without going through the proper legal procedure.

Why should it exist? Because it's our way of knowing who is in our country, what kind of past they have meaning if they are former felons or have prior convictions, so they can legally work and pay taxes just like the rest of us do. And keep in mind, those taxes will be what supports you when you are old and unable to work any longer. They are what will educate your children and pay for local services that keep your roads in good condition, keep your fire and police departments running, and many many other things that are needed. Anywhere you go on this planet, there will be laws you have to follow by one government or another. Even if you go somewhere and buy an island in the middle of the ocean.

As for your comment about it being a minor offence, you are obviousely in the wrong part of the country. Being here illegally is a very MAJOR offence that we have spent millions upon millions of dollars to upgrade, especially since 9/11. You need to get your facts strait.

And one last thing, don't go throwing the Bible, Christianity, or God in the face of people when you only contradict yourself in doing so as I have stated the reasoning in the first couple sentences. If you dislike so firmly about the government of the place you live, then do us all a favor and LEAVE.

CJ

asparagus
04-12-2006, 03:15 PM
There seem to be several issues that we are actually discussing:
1. What we should do about illegal immigrants (i.e. what the punishment should be)
2. What restrictions we should have on immigration (i.e. should we make it easier for people to immigrate or not).

If I'm right in this, then simply repeating "illegals are bad because they break the law" has no impact on the discussion of issue two.

timmyrotter
04-12-2006, 04:00 PM
so what if my argument breaks down... for now it stands and until they are legal, everything about that it true. so your arguments can wait until they apply. crossing the border is a misdeminor huh? well so is driving over the speed limit, but if you drive over the speed limit once and continue to do so for the rest of your life. well then that can be dangerous. these people are living, breaking the law constantly.

as for your other questions, they dont need to be answered now...

mk kid
04-12-2006, 05:24 PM
Hey timmy i second your response. i would like to know why their cause is so important and yet my mom who is a legal citizen, and is handicapped cant get social security, i guess she should take up a banner and hobble out to the street and demand better social scurity while comparing her cause to the civil rights movement. do you guys see how goofy these protest are when you put them in other issues. one more thing before we go making anyone legal citiens on this issue. lets pay the native americans money for the land we stole from them. now there is a group that has a right to protest.

why should someone fill out papers to travel god's land? are you even listening to yourself. it is called law breaking, there are laws which state that in order to become a citzen, you either have to be born in the U.S or apply(not travel) for legal citzenship. if you follow the law it is not that hard. you become a citzen applying for it, then you become a LEGAL citizen. You dont protest and demand first, then accept later. i would love to know what is going to happen when these people strike and if they dont get what they want. are we going to have riots in the streets, i mean they are anarchist style now, i dont want to see what happens if we dont give them what they want.

one last thing if you call yourself a christian and live in this country, it does not matter if you are legal or illegal you have a higher standard. YOU MUST FOLLOW THE LAWS, we are to set ourselves above the status qou, if you are saved you follow the laws or you do that to the best of your abilities. or if the law is immoral, and becoming a citzen is not immoral. that is the whole issue right their, do you support people who are breaking the law, or do you not.

zjf
04-12-2006, 05:34 PM
Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with outsourced jobs, and they certainly aren't stealing anything other than menial service jobs. Outsourcing doesn't have anything to illegal immigration. If anything, it decreases immigration to the US because they then have jobs in their home country.

so, since my trade is menial to you, I am menial as well?

I appreciate your compliments. In all reality, it isn't a tech support job, it's a SYSTEMS ADMIN job, which is a LOT higher up the food chain. I can't get any kind of job here because 1) I'm not really a windows admin, and 2) noone wants me since they can hire someone else in india to do the same job from a remote location for cheaper. the difference between a tech support job and a sysadmin job is about $80,000 a year. You don't ever see the systems admins, but you see their hard work whenever you load a website or log in to your school (or work) computer. Sysadmins are the ones that make sure Panheads.org is up as often as it is, and that it responds fast enough when you click the ok button. they are the ones that when the server is attacked, will restore YOUR profile from backup, and do so without you noticing. Sysadmins are underappreciated, and unnoticed 98% of the time. Tech Support is generally a small job that just about anyone can do with enough training.

Just thought I'd share with you what my "menial" line of work does for you.

asparagus
04-12-2006, 07:50 PM
so, since my trade is menial to you, I am menial as well?

I appreciate your compliments. In all reality, it isn't a tech support job, it's a SYSTEMS ADMIN job, which is a LOT higher up the food chain. I can't get any kind of job here because 1) I'm not really a windows admin, and 2) noone wants me since they can hire someone else in india to do the same job from a remote location for cheaper. the difference between a tech support job and a sysadmin job is about $80,000 a year.

Just thought I'd share with you what my "menial" line of work does for you.I can't tell whether or not you are being sarcastic and whether or not you are actually offended. In my previous post, I was not demeaning the service industry; instead I was describing the types of jobs that illegal immigrants tend to work. These are the very low wage service jobs. In general, your job (nor any other white collar job) is not being threatened by illegal immigrants...instead I suspect outsourcing is a much more serious threat to job security.

Further clarifying, I don't think there's nothing wrong with having a low paying service job. Again, I was just trying to describe the types of jobs that are threatened by illegal immigrants. If you were offended by my terminolgy, I think a PM would have been a better media to go through.

Hope this clears things up,
Alex

asparagus
04-12-2006, 08:10 PM
If you dislike so firmly about the government of the place you live, then do us all a favor and LEAVE.
If any patriot in American history had followed such advice, we wouldn't be the great country we are today.

Some of the people who have loved me the most are the one's who challenge me and confront me when I do wrong. If I really care about someone, I'm not going to just sit by and watch them ruin their lives. The same is true for the country I love.

Truely loving and caring for America means that we have to stand up sometimes. For example, I think abortion is a serious problem in America. If I turn a blind eye to it, that's not helping this country.

Similarly, if you have loving criticism for me, share it with me. I want that. I want to be a more humble and loving person who's focused on Christ.

terrasin
04-13-2006, 10:00 AM
If any patriot in American history had followed such advice, we wouldn't be the great country we are today.
Yes, and because of that mentality, look at where our country is today. We are probably the most immoral, uncaring, unforgiving, broken country in the world right now as a people because we've let ourselves have the mentality we have.

CJ

timmyrotter
04-13-2006, 08:42 PM
supposed christians!!! huh who the **** are you to judge??? a couple people have said this now... this is rediculous, you have no idea what i am going through. and im sorry to say that its good little "christians" like some of you, that cause so many people not to become christians.... ive witnessed so many people that dont want to go to church cause they dont want to get judged. where is the love in the loving God's church? well i can tell you its not there... ive seen more than i ever wanted to see of overly judgemental people screwing things up. maybe we are called to a higher standard, but that doesnt put us above others. what aobut all the talk about humility? even Jesus washed the feet of a whore. if a whore began posting on here, what would ya'll think? think aobut it? man o man...

cloroxmartini
04-13-2006, 09:19 PM
Loving our fellow man has nothing to do with illagal immigration at all. Sure we can love them, but that doesn't mean we accept what they do and call it okay.

And I don't think there is anyone on the boards (at least not myself) that thinks that illegals are bad people. The thing that upsets us is this: there are set guidelines in our society called laws, and when people break these laws and then recieve little or no punishment, it's kind of like a slap in the face to those of us who abide by the law. I don't know who mentioned it before, but it's disrespectful to the country you're trying to get into. The first thing you do when you get there is break the law? That doesn't exactly create a great first impression.

Say you own a house and you allow pretty much anyone to enter your home if they ask and show some kind of background information that proves they aren't up to no good. So everything is going great and then one day, some stranger walks into your house without asking and starts eating your food and drinking your drink. Then they go and take a nap in your bed. Wouldn't you be a little pissed? Who is this person and what are they up to? It's the same thing with illegally immigration.

unshakeable15
04-14-2006, 02:27 PM
Everybody take a deep breath and count to ten before you post. Every time. Things are getting hot in here, needlessly.
_________________________________________

zeroneff... honestly if you were speaking spanish with your family, i would probably think you (or someone you are with) is illegal... tell me are your parents legal? im not racist, im a protectionist though[...]
Really? You may not be racist, but what you've just said certainly sounds racist. Just because someone speaks Spanish at home does not make them an illegal. Would you think the same if you heard someone speak Italian at home? Or Russian? Or how 'bout French? It could be a Canadian illegal!

Speaking two languages is to be admired. Try telling Switzerland (where German, French and Italian are all spoken) that one language is it. America is unique in our desire for one language and one language alone, no secondary languages to speak at home.

CJ said something in the second post of this thread that i can only halfway agree with.

That being said, if and when this program comes into effect, I totally support that immigrants who come into this country illegally be a federal offence and that anyone who helps an illegal immigrant is also a federal offence.
If i lived in Texas, near the border, and i found somebody, half dead with thirst and hunger, i would not want to be in the position of breaking the law or saving a life. i don't want to have to call INS everytime i see someone collapsed on the ground, not to mention to do so would be prejudging them as an illegal. Showing charity to another human (not "charity" as in a handout, but "charity" as in love) should not be illegal.

timmyrotter
04-14-2006, 03:00 PM
well mike. we dont really have a problem with illegal russians do we? as in there are not an estimated 12 million of them as there are mexicans... so the ratio is slightly different, wouldnt you agree? they allow around 200,000 immigrants last year legally, i dont know if that is mexicans only or all together. but if ive done my math right, that would be 1/60 are legal? hmm.... that seems to me that saying they would be illegal... so what im trying to get at is, why would they speak another language frequently if they werent from another country? and if they were from another country then they are probably illegal...


and this abolutly disgusts me that people are so supportive of these law breakers!!! HEY EVERYONE NEXT MONTH LETS RALLY AROUND SHOPLIFTERS AND GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WANT!!!

and nobody can say that these mexicans are like the civil rights movement either, what they were doing was legal.

unshakeable15
04-14-2006, 03:18 PM
It's still racist to assume that. Just as it's agist to assume because i look young (i'm 22 but look 16-18), i'm a bad driver. Not only am i not young, but i'm not a bad driver either, and i never was. Not all young people are bad drivers. Simply because teenagers have experience and a stronger tendency to be reckless does not make every one of them worse drivers than most adults. Just like it's wrong to assume someone speaking Spanish at home is illegal.

What Rosa Parks did was illegal as well. She refused to give up her seat at the front of the bus for a white man. That was against the law.

That is why people associate the two. The Jim Crow laws were wrong, people see the laws in regards to illegal immigrants as wrong. Not all want to give citizenship to illegals in the U.S.; some want to simply change the laws to be more fair. Some want to protest portions of the law, or show solidarity with their brethren who are illegal.

Not everything is black and white. There are infinite shades of gray (or is it grey? Even this is shady.)

timmyrotter
04-14-2006, 04:05 PM
your right, there are blacks, whites, and browns... anyways check your laws, rosa parks did get arrested, but i dont know if what she was doing was illegal. but either way, she was legally in the country, i do know that...

asparagus
04-14-2006, 05:11 PM
they allow around 200,000 immigrants last year legally, i dont know if that is mexicans only or all together. but if ive done my math right, that would be 1/60 are legal? hmm...You are assuming that there are 12 million illegal immigrants that enter this country every year? I think, instead, the "12 million illegal immigrants" figure that we hear so often is a total as opposed to a yearly immigration figure. So your 1/60 figure is indeed flawed, and rather dramatically at that. To some extent, it appears you are making up figures to support your racial bias that everyone who speaks Spanish is an illegal immigrant.

and this abolutly disgusts me that people are so supportive of these law breakers!!! HEY EVERYONE NEXT MONTH LETS RALLY AROUND SHOPLIFTERS AND GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WANT!!! Who are you arguing against? No one has said they are supportive of them, and no one has said we should give them the right "to do what they want." People however, have said that we should show all people, illegal immigrants or not, compassion, mercy and other fruits of the spririt. I don't think anyone on here has suggested we give them a 100% free ride or ignore the problems that come with mass immigration. I'm certainly not suggesting that.

I might add that on a spiritual level, we are all lawbreakers (and even in the secular sense, I humbly admit that I have broken more than my fare share). Simply because someone gets the label, "lawbreaker," doesn't mean that we suddenly have an excuse not to be Christ to them. Reeper would be quick to mention here that being to them Christ also means holding them accountable to change their ways, but as I like to emphasize, it also means showing unconditional love. I don't think it's wise to go to one extreme or the other, but to find a sensible middle where immigrants are welcome here and protected here, while simultaneously held accountable for their actions like anyone else.

and nobody can say that these mexicans are like the civil rights movement either, what they were doing was legal.It wasn't legal at the time...

In response to another post you wrote:
anyways check your laws, rosa parks did get arrested, but i dont know if what she was doing was illegal. but either way, she was legally in the country, i do know that...Just so you know, what she was doing was, infact, illegal.
Wikipedia Rosa Parks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks)

skilletosis
04-27-2006, 04:08 PM
Oh my gosh spend a couple of weeks off the board and look what happens. I have many responses. These will be in no certain order.

Alex to make the illegals legal would not break down the argument. Reagan gave amnesty to millions in the 80's. What this did was encourage more and more by the millions to cross our borders and live here illegally. So making it legal for all of them would not help the situation. The proposed bill as it stands with it's three tiered system encourages millions to not stand up and go through the process.

Also Alex I took great offense at your "menial" comment. Here's the deal. If the systems administrator lost his job due to outsourcing and had to feed his family while looking for a comprable job he could go into construction or other labor types of work. If my hubby was killed in a car accident and I had to work picking strawberries you bet your rear end that I would do it to feed my kids. But these jobs are filled by those who are in this country illegally. You know a good way to help support yourself through college could be through the many jobs that illegals are doing. It must be wonderfull to have the degree from the college that you do and I'm sure you didn't mean to offend but you certainly did put down all of us who aren't at your same level of education. Wisdom and discernment aren't learned in college. You have alot to learn from those who are beneath you.

Zero mentioned that his family in the 50's came across illegally. Zero was born here and yet his gramar is absolutely terrible. His sentance structure is almost non-existant and is full of typos. On the net there's leeway with gramar but this goes far and beyond that. Please tell me this isn't the product of an American public school education. I'm seeing visions of dollars being flushed down the toilet. What's wrong with this picture.

More to come later.

disciple
04-27-2006, 04:22 PM
Zero mentioned that his family in the 50's came across illegally. Zero was born here and yet his gramar is absolutely terrible. His sentance structure is almost non-existant and is full of typos. On the net there's leeway with gramar but this goes far and beyond that. Please tell me this isn't the product of an American public school education. I'm seeing visions of dollars being flushed down the toilet. What's wrong with this picture.
You're one of the few who'd come out and say that... unfortunately, people still look down and speaking the truth, and even more so do people look down on education. I know countless teenagers who don't care anything about school, and don't want to apply themselves. (I am not pointing fingers at anyone.)


Well, I guess Education is best left for another thread.

skilletosis
04-27-2006, 04:27 PM
The protests......

When it comes to the kids walking out of class that's the one that really burns me. First of all it's my tax dollars that they are waisting when they walk out mid-day. They went around waiving Mexico's flag, if you are here and you want to be an American then be supportive and wave the American flag. You and I both know that a very large percentage of those kids didn't know enough about the issue to be protesting. Then there's the hey let's ditch class and join the protest crowd.

In my area here's what happened. At the junior high some kid jokingly waved a Mexico flag and all of the sudden kids started gathering and screaming. "Hey what's going on?" "A protest" "About what?" "The immigration thing, let's go see". At the high school the students were told that if they wanted to protest they could go to the cafeteria and write a letter to their congressmen. 25 kids were picked up for jumping the fence.

All the students who left school should get the same punishment as any other kid caught in the act of truancy.

skilletosis
04-27-2006, 04:37 PM
You're one of the few who'd come out and say that... unfortunately, people still look down and speaking the truth, and even more so do people look down on education. I know countless teenagers who don't care anything about school, and don't want to apply themselves. (I am not pointing fingers at anyone.)


Well, I guess Education is best left for another thread.

D, the reason that I say it is because of the millions of dollars MY TAX DOLLARS that are being spent on the children of illegal immigrants. Whether those children were born here or not doesn't matter to me. The fact is in SoCal there are hundreds of students in each school that are here illegally. At 4 to 5 thousand dollars per student per year we are talking about millions of dollars in education alone. When my daughter was in elementary school she would come home once a week and announce that there's a new kid in school who can't speak any english. They would sit the kid next to another kid who spoke spanish and expect them to translate the lessons. Which is takes away from that childs education also.

More on education dollars later.

disciple
04-27-2006, 04:38 PM
D, the reason that I say it is because of the millions of dollars MY TAX DOLLARS that are being spent on the children of illegal immigrants. Whether those children were born here or not doesn't matter to me. The fact is in SoCal there are hundreds of students in each school that are here illegally. At 4 to 5 thousand dollars per student per year we are talking about millions of dollars in education alone. When my daughter was in elementary school she would come home once a week and announce that there's a new kid in school who can't speak any english. They would sit the kid next to another kid who spoke spanish and expect them to translate the lessons. Which is takes away from that childs education also.

More on education dollars later.
I knew that. Of course, anybody who is motivated enough can educate themselves -- I am living proof of that.

Reeper
04-27-2006, 04:57 PM
I guess since he called me out I need to respond to this.

Alex, I think you misunderstand what I mean by holding someone accountable. To me it sounds like you think that holding someone accountable means that you are yelling at them or something. That is not at all what I mean. Let me give you an example. K. When I did something wrong when I was younger my parents would reprimand me. You know tell what I did wrong, why it was wrong, and threatened to break my knee caps if I did it again, then they would give me a big hug, tell me they loved me. That is what I mean by holding someone accountable. You let them know that you love them, and the only reason why you are telling them that they did something wrong is that you love them, then you tell them what they did wrong.

It seems to me that you associate unconditional love with allowing people to do what they want to do. That is not love. That is cowardice. Not trying to be offensive here, but that is my opinion. Sometimes what people want is not what is best for them, or what is best for everybody else. That is the issue we are dealing with here. What these people want is not best for everyone. While you may be showing them love, what are showing to everyone that your love is hurting.

Finally I just want to say that I think we need to stop calling people racist on the thread. That includes everyone on here, even you Mike. While Timmy's comments are not the smartest in the world he is not being racist. Racism would be if he saw someone who was hispanic and then decided that they were illegal based on their "race" alone. Either way, the term doesn't help to cool down the heat that this convo has taken on. Just my opinion though.

Peace

skilletosis
04-27-2006, 04:57 PM
My next thoughts on education. Considering the amount of money that is spent educating those who shouldn't be here think of what that amount of money could do for those who are American citizens and here legally by other circumstance. Teachers could get a respectable salary, school buildings and desks wouldn't be falling apart, there wouldn't be a shortage of up to date text books, classes wouldn't be overfilled, and so on. Plus think of the money that is spent of printing everything in spanish also.

Now here's where it really hits home. I am now stepping up on the Autism Soapbox. It is really expensive to educate children with disabilities. My daughter needs speech therapy, occupational therapy, and adaptive PE. It is a fact that these children are capable of learning. It sickens me that we aren't properly taking care of our citizens yet we spend millions on illegals. So one might say but what about the disabled kids from other countries (trust me there have been illegals in my daughters classes). To that I would say let them apply for a special status. As a parent of a disabled child you have to fight for the therapies your kids need. My child is a citizen take care of her first. Off the soapbox.

asparagus
04-28-2006, 08:29 AM
I guess since he called me out I need to respond to this.Reeper, bro, I wasn't calling you out. I was suggesting that we each over-emphasize different elements of God's love. Re-read my post. I was trying to be agreeable. Dang.

It seems to me that you associate unconditional love with allowing people to do what they want to do. That is not love. That is cowardice. Not trying to be offensive here, but that is my opinion. Sometimes what people want is not what is best for them, or what is best for everybody else. That is the issue we are dealing with here. What these people want is not best for everyone. While you may be showing them love, what are showing to everyone that your love is hurting.
Wow, I don't even know what you are debating me about. Here is what I said:
I don't think it's wise to go to one extreme or the other, but to find a sensible middle where immigrants are welcome here and protected here, while simultaneously held accountable for their actions like anyone else.

asparagus
04-28-2006, 08:39 AM
Also Alex I took great offense at your "menial" comment.So you want me to be more PC? The definition of the word, according to Oxford American Dictionary is "unskilled work." I'll try to use that term in the future. What's the lable that you use for low-wage jobs? Just let me know the lable and I'll use it so I don't offend you anymore. I come across offensive terms on these boards all the time, and by now I've just given up on them.
Here's the deal. If the systems administrator lost his job due to outsourcing and had to feed his family while looking for a comprable job he could go into construction or other labor types of work. If my hubby was killed in a car accident and I had to work picking strawberries you bet your rear end that I would do it to feed my kids. But these jobs are filled by those who are in this country illegally. You know a good way to help support yourself through college could be through the many jobs that illegals are doing.You act like I didn't work before I had my bachelors degree. Well I did, and I didn't do it by picking strawberries, and I haven't heard of anyone yet who has. Illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans don't do.

Zero mentioned that his family in the 50's came across illegally. Zero was born here and yet his gramar is absolutely terrible. His sentance structure is almost non-existant and is full of typos. On the net there's leeway with gramar but this goes far and beyond that. Please tell me this isn't the product of an American public school education.So what is the argument here?

skilletosis
04-28-2006, 09:44 AM
So you want me to be more PC? The definition of the word, according to Oxford American Dictionary is "unskilled work." I'll try to use that term in the future. What's the lable that you use for low-wage jobs? Just let me know the lable and I'll use it so I don't offend you anymore. I come across offensive terms on these boards all the time, and by now I've just given up on them.
You act like I didn't work before I had my bachelors degree. Well I did, and I didn't do it by picking strawberries, and I haven't heard of anyone yet who has. Illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans don't do.

So what is the argument here?

Aw come on Alex you know I am not one to fall for the PC garbage. I would call a low-wage job a low-wage job. I wouldn't say unskilled because there are many low-wage jobs that do require some level of skill and knowledge even if it only takes a few minutes of instruction to learn it. The problem was that you mentioning your level of education had nothing to do with the subject. You don't know mine or many others here's level of education. You assumed that systems admin was menial. I read the thread in one day. When putting your different coments together that you made the impression of you being above others was most definately made.

The is a misconception that Americans won't do those jobs. Which is why I gave the examples that I did. My hubby dies unexpectly I would pick strawberries, clean toilets, paint houses, etc. My daughter wants extra spending money than she can earn it. Here's another example of the misconception. As reported on Fox and other venues just after hurricane Katrina hit. There was a temp company that went and hired 250 people from the New Orleans area to help with the cleanup. About a week later they were all fired because as they said the Mexicans are here. They fired all the legal citizens in favor of illegals.

As far as Zero goes what I said was an observation. His family came for opertunity and instead we get a waist of tax dollars. Unless one has a learning disability there's no excuse for such poor English skills. Anyone who has made it through the eighth grade and applied themselves would have a better comand of English.

skilletosis
04-28-2006, 10:06 AM
Ok now for the economy arguement. In this post I'm only speaking of the men that come here. As a former grocery store employee I can tell you that there were groups that would regularly come in and rarely buy much more than rice, beans, and tortillas. Sometimes a little meat, rarely any milk or cereal, and very little produce. They do their best to live on as little as possible so that they can send money home to their families in Mexico waiting for the day that their family can follow them to the US. They aren't spending money on luxury items like dvd's and new furniture. I know a few people that have had a house on their street that was rented out and as many as 25 people were residing at the residence. The illegals were packing in as many as they could so that their rent was minimal. So no they aren't helping the economy.

More on the economy later.

asparagus
04-28-2006, 10:31 AM
The problem was that you mentioning your level of education had nothing to do with the subject. You don't know mine or many others here's level of education. You assumed that systems admin was menial. I read the thread in one day.Here's what I said: Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with outsourced jobs, and they certainly aren't stealing anything other than menial service jobs. Outsourcing doesn't have anything to illegal immigration. If anything, it decreases immigration to the US because they then have [more] jobs in their home country.

I certainly don't think a systems administration job is being threatened to any serious extent because of uneducated illegal immigrants.

You keep talking about my education, but I think I should mention that both my wife and I work in seasonal, outdoor occupations.

The is a misconception that Americans won't do those jobs. Which is why I gave the examples that I did. My hubby dies unexpectly I would pick strawberries, clean toilets, paint houses, etc. My daughter wants extra spending money than she can earn it. Here's another example of the misconception. As reported on Fox and other venues just after hurricane Katrina hit. There was a temp company that went and hired 250 people from the New Orleans area to help with the cleanup. About a week later they were all fired because as they said the Mexicans are here. They fired all the legal citizens in favor of illegals. Yeah, and these actions are illegal. I don't understand what exactly we are debating. We both think it should be illegal to hire illegal immigrants.
As far as Zero goes what I said was an observation. His family came for opertunity and instead we get a waist of tax dollars. Unless one has a learning disability there's no excuse for such poor English skills. Anyone who has made it through the eighth grade and applied themselves would have a better comand of English. So what does that have to do with immigration?

terrasin
04-28-2006, 10:41 AM
I have to agree 100% with skilletosis on what she is saying. She is probably the most educated person in this forum on the topic from her years of experience and has been effectively discussing more to point what I was posting about earlier on.

May 1st, they are planning another huge protest in the southwest.

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Pro-immigration activists say a national boycott and marches planned for May 1 will flood U.S. streets with millions of Latinos to demand amnesty for illegal immigrants and shake the ground under Congress as it debates reform.

"There will be 2 to 3 million people hitting the streets in Los Angeles alone. We're going to close down Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Tucson, Phoenix, Fresno,"

"We want full amnesty, full legalization for anybody who is here (illegally)," Rodriguez said. "That is the message that is going to be played out across the country on May 1."

This is a load of crap if you ask me. They want to pass go and get paid $200 with out rolling the dice and making their way around the board. Are they going to be paying taxes too? Register for a social security card? They are going to have to do all the paperwork anyway. And how many more will come here in the following years and expect the same deal as their cousins/neighbors/families? If we allow this to happen, how many will call upon the rest of their familes from Mexico to join them? This will happen again and again and again till we get someone in office to put their foot down and stop it.

More later.

CJ

terrasin
04-28-2006, 10:46 AM
So what does that have to do with immigration?
The point she is making is that we have people coming here and not educating their children on American life. They want to pretty much bring Mexico here. One of the biggest problems is language. They don't teach nor enforce the use of English to their children. This causes a problem because they never learn to speak it properly or write it properly. It ends up costing us tax money because they get held back in school.

CJ

skilletosis
04-28-2006, 02:56 PM
I have to agree 100% with skilletosis on what she is saying. She is probably the most educated person in this forum on the topic from her years of experience and has been effectively discussing more to point what I was posting about earlier on.

May 1st, they are planning another huge protest in the southwest.



This is a load of crap if you ask me. They want to pass go and get paid $200 with out rolling the dice and making their way around the board. Are they going to be paying taxes too? Register for a social security card? They are going to have to do all the paperwork anyway. And how many more will come here in the following years and expect the same deal as their cousins/neighbors/families? If we allow this to happen, how many will call upon the rest of their familes from Mexico to join them? This will happen again and again and again till we get someone in office to put their foot down and stop it.

More later.

CJ


Exactly CJ. In the 80's Reagan gave amnesty. It was an attempt to legalize those who were here so they could assimilate into Americans. Here we are almost 20 years later and we are back in the same boat because we didn't close the border. The border needs to be controlled. In fact the Minutemen have seen a rise in people trying to cross over ever since this whole protest garbage started.

To allow those who have given the proverbial finger to our laws and illegally entered the country legal status is a complete slap in the face to anyone who has legaly immigrated here. They want to take cuts in line and don't care who might get hurt in the process.

disciple
04-28-2006, 03:17 PM
To allow those who have given the proverbial finger to our laws and illegally entered the country legal status is a complete slap in the face to anyone who has legaly immigrated here. They want to take cuts in line and don't care who might get hurt in the process.
I totally agree. Honestly, I think the analogy is quite fitting, same with CJ's analogy from Monopoly. :P

Isildur9473
04-28-2006, 03:40 PM
Exactly CJ. In the 80's Reagan gave amnesty. It was an attempt to legalize those who were here so they could assimilate into Americans. Here we are almost 20 years later and we are back in the same boat because we didn't close the border. The border needs to be controlled. In fact the Minutemen have seen a rise in people trying to cross over ever since this whole protest garbage started.

To allow those who have given the proverbial finger to our laws and illegally entered the country legal status is a complete slap in the face to anyone who has legaly immigrated here. They want to take cuts in line and don't care who might get hurt in the process.

I was reading that they shoot people who try to illegaly cross into Mexico, why don't we do that here? Once we nail a few hundred of em mabye they'll think twice.

Also, everyone who goes out on this protest and leaves work should be fired. Maybe that will make them think again about doing something stupid like that.

skilletosis
04-28-2006, 04:18 PM
Ok now on to the ER. If a woman who is here illegally is or becomes pregnant when she goes to the hospital and gives birth there are bills for services from the hospital, obstetrician, and the pediatrician which are payed by taxpayers and absorbed into the costs of those with insurance. Illegal aliens use the ER like a clinic. When the baby gets an ear infection it to the ER. When an adult gets a cold and it goes into bronchitis it's off to the ER. When a day laborer gets hurt on the job they don't go to the industrial clinic, it's off to the ER. When they are in a car wreck it's off to the ER. Have a heart attack, here comes the ambulance and off to the ER.

My last ER bill for an dog bite ended up with 4 visits totalling about 6 grand. Thank God we have insurance. But even the insurance companies are being charges more for services because the hospitals offset losses by raising fees to those who can and do pay.

Millions of illegal aliens equals millions in hospital charges.

disciple
04-28-2006, 04:43 PM
Millions of illegal aliens equals millions in hospital charges.
More than just millions in charges, I'd suppose.

To simplify what you've said, illegal immigrants cost us, the legal citizens of America, more money for education and hospitalization and such while they skate by taxes and other fees and paperwork. Am I correct?

terrasin
04-28-2006, 05:17 PM
That's pretty much correct. By being here illegally, they pay no taxes other than sales tax when they buy something, when one gets hurt, we end up paying their bill, their kids get free education in our public schools...

CJ

skilletosis
04-28-2006, 07:38 PM
More than just millions in charges, I'd suppose.

To simplify what you've said, illegal immigrants cost us, the legal citizens of America, more money for education and hospitalization and such while they skate by taxes and other fees and paperwork. Am I correct?


ding ding ding, you got skippy. It is a fact that illegal immigrants consume much more than they contribute.

unshakeable15
04-30-2006, 09:36 PM
Finally I just want to say that I think we need to stop calling people racist on the thread. That includes everyone on here, even you Mike. While Timmy's comments are not the smartest in the world he is not being racist. Racism would be if he saw someone who was hispanic and then decided that they were illegal based on their "race" alone. Either way, the term doesn't help to cool down the heat that this convo has taken on. Just my opinion though.
Just thought i should let it be know that not only was i not calling anyone racist, i don't think anyone should. Instead, i was pointing out a comment made by Timmy that has racist connotations to it. Big difference. i was simply trying to keep things from getting to heated racially (and keep people aware of what they say).

NightCrawler
05-01-2006, 06:08 AM
Sorry to jump in, as I have not read this thread...

My friend suggested that we (USA) take over mexico and then canada... then the rest of latin america. It solves a lot of border issues, and stuph. I thought that was a fun idea, but I couldn't imagine the weight on the economy that would have.

NightCrawler
05-01-2006, 06:18 AM
Okay, so I was reading this thread afterward... and I think my friend has the best solution. There, I am nuts like a lot of the people that posted in this thread!

Reeper
05-01-2006, 08:58 AM
Reeper, bro, I wasn't calling you out. I was suggesting that we each over-emphasize different elements of God's love. Re-read my post. I was trying to be agreeable. Dang.


Wow, I don't even know what you are debating me about. Here is what I said:
I don't think it's wise to go to one extreme or the other, but to find a sensible middle where immigrants are welcome here and protected here, while simultaneously held accountable for their actions like anyone else.

Sorry really sounded like you wanted me to respond to it. However I would disagree with the fact that we both overemphasize different aspects of God's love, as stated by the rest of my post. I was debating what you think I overemphasize. I was trying to show you that you misunderstand what I mean by "hold accountable." My second point was that if you allow these people to stay here you will be giving them what they want. What they want is not best for everyone concerned, therefore the love you are showing only extends to a small percentage of people and in fact turns everybody else off to you. Also you will be teaching others that if they come here illegally they will be able to stay. Yeah they may get a slap on the wrist but who cares. This solution will not help solve the immigration problem. But anyway, we're talking around each other.

Mike, my point was that first off the comment made was not a racist comment, in the context it was presented, as I explained, really you were the one that brought race into it, and second that no matter what, throwing around the term, or carefully placing the term racist, does not help the discussion in any way. Whether you are calling someone racist or their comments racists, it does not help, except to make the discussion more heated. I don't think saying that Timmy's comments were racist helped him to settle down and in fact it seemed to feed his fire. Man you try and help out...

Peace

unshakeable15
05-01-2006, 10:33 PM
Mike, my point was that first off the comment made was not a racist comment, in the context it was presented, as I explained, really you were the one that brought race into it, and second that no matter what, throwing around the term, or carefully placing the term racist, does not help the discussion in any way. Whether you are calling someone racist or their comments racists, it does not help, except to make the discussion more heated. I don't think saying that Timmy's comments were racist helped him to settle down and in fact it seemed to feed his fire. Man you try and help out...
i see your point, but i must disagree, again.

To quote Timmy again (Go here for the full text of his post (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showpost.php?p=270544&postcount=42)): "zeroneff... honestly if you were speaking spanish with your family, i would probably think you (or someone you are with) is illegal... tell me are your parents legal? im not racist, im a protectionist though[...]"

The very fact that he said "i'm not racist" is a red flag. Usually, people say that when they realize they are saying something that probably isn't right. Just like when people say "i don't intend to be mean" they usually are and to some extent do intend to be mean. Otherwise, they wouldn't say what they are going to say in the first place.

Also, did you notice that zeroneff said he was speaking Spanish with his family. If we so wanted, my family could speak Piglatin to each other. My sister and i did, on occasion do just that. But does it mean anything other than we wanted to speak that language? No. In fact, if you speak Spanish at home with your family, it does not mean you are illegal; far from it! Spanish is the most spoken language on this planet! Everywhere from Spain, to South America, to islands in the Pacific speak Spanish.

If someone is speaking Spanish to their family, then all it means is that they originally came from a nation that speaks Spanish. To infer they are illegal aliens is, in fact, a racist idea.

Now, i do not want to drag this conversation further off that it already has. i admire the fact that you are sticking up for what you think is right, but to ignore a racist comment (made intentionally or not) just because it would keep the temperature of the debate on a more even level is stupid. The only way to teach each other what is wrong is to point it out when it pops up (this applies to much more than racist comments). To not do so would be cowardice.

Now, if you want to further discuss this, my PM box is always open. :) i don't want to make this thread stray any farther than it already has. :)

Reeper
05-02-2006, 04:37 AM
I want to further discuss it but here. None of this slap and run stuff.

Mike you proved my point for me. My point was the comment had nothing to do with race. As you stated Spanish is spoken all over the world, therefore saying someone is illegal based on them speaking it is not judging someone based on race. Again judging someone based on race would be, if I made a judgement about you just because of the color of your skin, or your ethnicity, Not Your Language. The comment "I'm not a racist" had nothing to do with his former comments, he was prefacing his next comment. However, were the comments stupid and loaded with prejudice? Yeah. That is what could have been said. When you start using terms like racist you are just asking for trouble. I don't know why you can't just take this advice. I understand you want to point out someone's mistake but you went about it the wrong way.

Now I never said to ignore this comment. Dude please read what I said. I said that the best way to handle it was not to call someone or their comments racist. That is not cowardice it is intelligence. My point was the situation could have been handled better. Geez. Again you try and help... I think I'm gonna take a little break, so don't lock the thread.

Peace

riz
05-02-2006, 08:03 AM
Race is related to ethnicity, though.

Maybe instead of the term racist, the word ethnocentric might be used. A little less harsh, but still having similar connotation, and able to be used in regards to language.

asparagus
05-02-2006, 10:49 AM
Sorry really sounded like you wanted me to respond to it. Reeper, thanks for your response. :-)

timmyrotter
05-02-2006, 11:24 AM
the protests yesterday made me so mad! i dont agree with them being here in the first place, as most of you know. the fact that they broke the law to enter this country, what loyalty does that show? im sure they were escaping oppression, and i understand thier motivation. but once they enter a foreign place, why are they trying to change the rules in thier favor? havent we done enough by letting them stay here(i dont think we should, but thats whats been done.)

and then they complain "where would you be without us?" "we pick your fruits and do dry wall" all the thinks that dont take skill. so why should we feel threatend byt that? any high schooler could do that.

and ive heard them say "we pay taxews..." oh wait hold on there, as i recall many illegals send a bulk of money back to mexico to thier familys, well that gets around sales taxe. income? well i know for a fact that many of them are payed under the table. that doesnt get reported to the state.

we need a wall! not like a fence, but like isreal does to keep out palestine. raid the homes of the illegals, and deport. before our country deterioratews from the inside!

timmyrotter
05-02-2006, 11:27 AM
one more thing, the only problem with people getting fired from skipping work. what employer wants to lose thier cheap work force. under any other circumstances, mass absenses would result in firings. but you know something is up when it doesnt happen.

asparagus
05-02-2006, 11:38 AM
the protests yesterday made me so mad! i dont agree with them being here in the first place, as most of you know. the fact that they broke the law to enter this country, what loyalty does that show? im sure they were escaping oppression, and i understand thier motivation. but once they enter a foreign place, why are they trying to change the rules in thier favor? havent we done enough by letting them stay here(i dont think we should, but thats whats been done.Timmy,
It is unfair of you to assume that the protesters are all illegal immigrants. I took part in the boycott yesterday, but I am neither an illegal immigrant, nor latino.

My wife is latina, and sympathizes with the protesters. Her ancestors did not come to America, but instead America came to them. Sierra today lives in America not because her family moved, but because the states her ancestors lived in were taken over by the US. So when you say, "I don't agree with them being here in the first place," consider that it was the U.S. that first forced them here.

terrasin
05-02-2006, 11:42 AM
I've been listening to a lot of news shows the past couple days about this and I have to agree with a lot of what they said.

I believe we first have to secure our borders and tighten security. Then we need to nail the places that hire illegals and hit them hard. After that, we can start looking to the people currently here and give them a chance to become full residents of the country. I'm not taking about amnesty. There should and will not be amnesty for those people here. But give them a chance to go through the proper process to become full, law abiding, tax paying citizens.

The other issue I see here is that these people coming here won't do this because they don't want to pay taxes nor do they want to live here forever. They only want to make enough money to live comfortably and then retire back home after working here for 7 years. This is why a guest program would be good for them and it would be able to control the amount of people migrating to the US as well.

As for the companies who lost money due to hiring illegals, I don't feel sorry for their losses.

CJ

timmyrotter
05-02-2006, 01:24 PM
I've been listening to a lot of news shows the past couple days about this and I have to agree with a lot of what they said.

I believe we first have to secure our borders and tighten security. Then we need to nail the places that hire illegals and hit them hard. After that, we can start looking to the people currently here and give them a chance to become full residents of the country. I'm not taking about amnesty. There should and will not be amnesty for those people here. But give them a chance to go through the proper process to become full, law abiding, tax paying citizens.

The other issue I see here is that these people coming here won't do this because they don't want to pay taxes nor do they want to live here forever. They only want to make enough money to live comfortably and then retire back home after working here for 7 years. This is why a guest program would be good for them and it would be able to control the amount of people migrating to the US as well.

As for the companies who lost money due to hiring illegals, I don't feel sorry for their losses.

CJ


i agree completely

timmyrotter
05-02-2006, 01:29 PM
This is what we are allowing into our country...



By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 6 minutes ago



MEXICO CITY - Mexican President Vicente Fox will sign into law a measure that decriminalizes the possession of small amounts of marijuana, cocaine, heroin and other drugs for personal use, his spokesman said Tuesday.

Spokesman Ruben Aguilar defended the law, which was approved Friday by Mexico's Senate, despite criticism in the United States that it could increase casual drug use.

"The president is going to sign this law," said Aguilar, who called the legislation "a better tool ... that allows better action and better coordination in the fight against drug dealing."

"The government believes that this law represents progress, because it established the minimum quantities that a citizen can carry for personal use," Aguilar said.

Under current Mexican law, judges can drop charges against people caught with drugs if they can prove they are addicts and if an expert certifies they were caught with "the quantity necessary for personal use."

The new bill makes the decriminalization automatic and drops the addict requirement — automatically letting any "consumers" have drugs.

While police will still be able to detain people for public consumption or possession of drugs, it appears that those caught could only be referred to a treatment program — of which Mexico has few — or have their names added to a registry of addicts.

On Friday, Mayor Jerry Sanders of San Diego, said he was "appalled" by the bill. The city of 1.3 million people is a short drive from the Mexican border town of Tijuana.

"I certainly think we are going to see more drugs available in the United States," Sanders said. "We need to register every protest the American government can muster."

Under the new law, consumers may possess up to 25 milligrams of heroin, five grams of marijuana (about one-fifth of an ounce, or about four joints), or 0.5 grams of cocaine — the equivalent of about four "lines," or half the standard street-sale quantity.

The law also establishes allowable quantities for other drugs, including LSD, ecstasy — about two pills' worth — and amphetamines.

However, the bill stiffens penalties for trafficking and possession of drugs — even small quantities — by government employees or near schools, and it maintains criminal penalties for drug sales.

It also gives local police more power to go after small-scale dealing.

bobbi
05-02-2006, 03:02 PM
I think this whole debate about immigration is crazy. Since when does America decide that something that's ILLEGAL is suddenly going to be okay? I have tons of friends that came from England and have (or had) to pay loads of money to live in America, and now America is saying that you can do it illegally and people will fight for you to be able to stay here! It makes me angry.

riz
05-03-2006, 07:36 AM
This is what we are allowing into our country...

Dude.

I don't support illegal immigration in the states because, duh, it's illegal. But, they're people too. You're acting like they aren't human, the way you're bandying about terms to describe them. Try to be a bit more respectful in your arguments...

timmyrotter
05-03-2006, 11:43 AM
Dude.

I don't support illegal immigration in the states because, duh, it's illegal. But, they're people too. You're acting like they aren't human, the way you're bandying about terms to describe them. Try to be a bit more respectful in your arguments...


what are you reffering to as "terms"?

disciple
05-03-2006, 11:49 AM
what are you reffering to as "terms"?
He quoted it in his response. "What" being a key word.

At least I think so.

bob
05-03-2006, 01:18 PM
Well, I think the situation has obviously gotten out of hand (no duh!). There are a million differen solutions though . . . but which one will be chosen is the question. (Do I win the Captain obvious award?).

bob
05-03-2006, 01:24 PM
and I didn't do it by picking strawberries, and I haven't heard of anyone yet who has. Illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans don't do.


Ummmm, I work on a vineyard for a living, which includes picking grapes, which is a job done by Mexicans in California. :P

terrasin
05-03-2006, 05:11 PM
Yes, and Bob will be scoring CJ some free wine this year. ;)

CJ

disciple
05-03-2006, 05:17 PM
Yes, and Bob will be scoring CJ some free wine this year. ;)

CJ
Because I am sure you need some stock of wine for the anniversary, right? ;)

terrasin
05-03-2006, 06:00 PM
pfft, that would require sharing. I don't like sharing my wine. Especially if it's vintage. ;)

j/k

CJ

bob
05-04-2006, 02:07 PM
Yeah, considering it'd be illegal to give you wine since my boss doesn't have a permit to make wine . . . i'm sure i'll give you some :P

mk kid
05-04-2006, 05:31 PM
Guys all of this dandy and fine but why are defending these people. i want to know why i should as a tax paying citizen of this country, allow someone to live here who is not a citizen? here is another question why cant't my mom who is handicapped not get medicaid, or even have her voice listened to, but someone who is illegal can demand to become legal. and do it in a way that does not follow our laws that our fore fathers or leaders before us set.
Also i want to address something else i am getting tired of some of the comments like "supposed christians" and "your remarks are racist" in the post, just because you dont agree with what somebody is saying. nobody is disrespecting anyone and they are not trying to, they may be a little heated but that is all. that is just a few comments that have gotten me personally a little hot.
yes i will also admit that what happened in the protest was deplorable, it is a sad day when people who break that law can be so arrogant. saying things like if it wasnt for us you wouldnt... i have good decent respectable hispanic fiends who didnt bother to protest.if this was for workers rights i would be for it, if this was for freedom from a communist nation i would be or it. all of these people are not saying hey i will be an example i will provide for my family, i will become legal and will never have to worry about being deported. no you dont hear this you hear demands.last time i looked being legal wasn't a crime. but apperently to these people(not hispanics in general) being legal is a crime and i am a bad person. you know what my family instilled in me that respect is earned. these people have not earned it.but the number one issue is do you think these people are breaking the law or do you not.
Oh and one more thing, using the exscuse of ancestors long ago owned this land and that is why these people can strike, is a crock. if that were the case, then the land(North America) was first dscovered by the vikings, who discovered what is now Native americans who ORIGINALLY lived on the land. then the spanish followed closely by the dutch and african slaves. so unless you are claiming these people through blood lines of the spainards, which is still quite a stretch. that is the only way you can say these people's descendent had this land originally. i didnt see all of the native american tribes protesting, so i didnt even bother. oh and quite comparing your protest to the civil rights movement, it is a mockery of Dr.King.

unshakeable15
05-04-2006, 09:29 PM
I want to further discuss it but here. None of this slap and run stuff.
i am only continuing to post here because i want everyone to see that i'm not just running off and not doing what i need to.* BUT, this is just the type of discussion that should be moved to PM because it has drifted away from the point of the thread. If, after this post, you still feel need to continue, i will not respond except in PM format.

Mike you proved my point for me. My point was the comment had nothing to do with race. As you stated Spanish is spoken all over the world, therefore saying someone is illegal based on them speaking it is not judging someone based on race. Again judging someone based on race would be, if I made a judgement about you just because of the color of your skin, or your ethnicity, Not Your Language. The comment "I'm not a racist" had nothing to do with his former comments, he was prefacing his next comment. However, were the comments stupid and loaded with prejudice? Yeah. That is what could have been said.
You are correct. i didn't use the term that fully meant what i wanted it to. Ethnocentric (as Riz pointed out) would have been the better term. But then again, what is race but a social construct? So racism isn't anything that is set in stone, but is fluid and hard to pin down. Just the same, i should have been more careful to use a better word.

When you start using terms like racist you are just asking for trouble. I don't know why you can't just take this advice. I understand you want to point out someone's mistake but you went about it the wrong way.
You're right, i went about it the wrong way, but only in the word i used.

Now I never said to ignore this comment. Dude please read what I said. I said that the best way to handle it was not to call someone or their comments racist. That is not cowardice it is intelligence. My point was the situation could have been handled better. Geez. Again you try and help... I think I'm gonna take a little break, so don't lock the thread.
i can't believe you'd think i'd lock this thread just because you disagree with me on a word! i'm more insulted by that than anything else you've said! And i see that you did not say to ignore the comment; but if i can't point it out, what else can i do but ignore it?

Now, mk kid, please watch what you say. i was the one who tossed the word "racist" out there in the fashion you so describe, but i did not do it as the basis of an argument on illegal immigrants. In fact, except for some of the more extreme ends of the argument, i agree that illegal immigration is a problem and should be stopped. But we need to do it in a way that displays kindness and love instead of just giving everyone the boot.

Also, a point of contention. Natives from Mexico and other Latin American countries are, on the majority, descendents from two groups, the Spanish and the Native Americans (Aztecs, Incas...), so if you take their Native American heritage, yes, they do have more right to the land than we do. And since you can't separate an individual's heritage when talking about things like this, we have to say it WAS their land to begin with.

*Referring to my second paragraph.

mk kid
05-05-2006, 11:46 AM
I concead your point, and that is one reason i tried to distinguish between illegal hispanics and hispanics in general. i am not against hispanics, many of them are my friends. it just seemed that many were using this as lets bash the people who are against the illegal immigrants. i still think that them comparing themselves to the civil rights movement is wrong.there are also a lot of things i disagree with on this issue, does that mean i hate hispanics, no in fact i am at my school listening to a maruachi band play music and they are very nice. But Mike, my beef wasnt just with you. many others have made comments , but think you for clearing this up i am human and sometimes i blow up. i will not apologize for what i said, however i will apologize for handling it the wrong way. but even then i tried to keep it civil(no name calling no threats and no shredding)in some respects.
And on the land issue, that issue is mute, we can go back and yell and scream that they desrve this because of the land issue. but it doesn't accomplish anything the land is now owned by the usa and we have to comply by the rules, unless it usurpes god's law. that is all i was trying to say, stop using the land issue!
besides that, that is all i had a problem with. was the statement and mainly people using this land issue. it is the usa that owns it period. but on a personal note if i would have protested i would have been fired . mk kid out

asparagus
05-05-2006, 03:09 PM
And on the land issue, that issue is mute, we can go back and yell and scream that they desrve this because of the land issue. but it doesn't accomplish anything the land is now owned by the usa and we have to comply by the rules, unless it usurpes god's law. that is all i was trying to say, stop using the land issue!
besides that, that is all i had a problem with. was the statement and mainly people using this land issue. it is the usa that owns it period.
Chris,
I'm not sure what you are exactly referring to as the "land issue," but I think you are referring to my post about my wife's ancestry. Please understand that I only brought up that story in response to some of timmyrotter's comments that I interpreted to suggest that latinos are somehow less thankful to America or owe America more than other citizens. I only mentioned it to remind him that not all latinos are immigrants, but that instead some of them are natives and have been in America longer than his ancestors have.

In writing this, I've taken time to reread the posts on this page. In it, absolutely no one has "yelled and screamed that they deserve this because of the land issue," as you describe.

On a more technical note, you also say, "the land is now owned by the usa and we have to comply by the rules." This is true, but much of the debate in the legislature has been whether or not the rules should be changed. Simply saying we should comply by the rules is not a good argument for not changing them.

useofpronouns
05-05-2006, 03:53 PM
I think the whole march protests are a joke. Most people involved with them are either ignorant of what is going on and just looking to whine about something, or they don't understand the issue at hand.

Illegal immigration is a very bad thing in this country. Especially now that a lot of companies are outsourcing jobs to other countries. By allowing illegal immigrants to stay in this country and work means that there are less jobs available for our own people here.

What I don't like to see is people are trying to turn this into a racist issue when it's nothing of the sort. This is the United States doing what it needs to. There are talks of ways to bring people into the country legally for work. There has been a lot of buzz about a temperary worker program which will allow immigrants to come work legally in this country. But people would rather do things their own way because they either don't want to pay taxes or just don't want to abide by the laws even though this would make their, and everyone elses lives a lot simpler.

That being said, if and when this program comes into effect, I totally support that immigrants who come into this country illegally be a federal offence and that anyone who helps an illegal immigrant is also a federal offence. We are creating ways for people to enter the country legally. If they don't do things the way they need to be done, then they don't need to be here.

CJ



I've read most of the posts on here; and I decided to comment on the politics of today too. Ya, you know what... People should be free to enter America. It's the melting pot of society. My stance is not racial or prejudice in the least if anyone is curious. However!! although it is the melting pot of society, one should be inclined to abide by the rules of society. I have no problem with people coming into our country, but legality is the key thing here.

A few months ago, a bunch of Hispanic college students protested this whole ordeal by burning OUR AMERICAN FLAG!!!!!! Then, they put their country's flag in the place of what they had just burned. You know what... our families and friends have not only fought but have DIED for that flag!! My family has taught me to be majorly patriotic... and just like in Pillar's song "Indvisible"... if you don't like my country.... you can leave.


oh! and on the one lady who wasn't willing to remove her veil... I am Pentecostal for anyone who doesn't know.. There is a dress code that I personally abide to and it's a personal conviction that I have as a Christian... but my convictions and my "dress code" NEVER gets in the way of the law... If she wants a drivers license so badly... she's going to have to, once again, abide to the rules of society.

These immigration laws were not established for America to be "the bully" of society. Laws are created to protect citizens of the country; and when you are here illegally (aka without legal consent) you are NOT a citizen.

oh... and again on the flag thing.. I have no problem with people wanting to be patriotic for their own homeland. If I were in another country, I would want the memories of what I call "home"; however, once you are in this country legally and you become a citizen of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, you are thus *shocker* an American!!! The American flag should be treated with proper etiquette and the highest respect. If you have a problem with that... go back to your homeland then.

Ya... I will be the first one to admit that America has internal and external problems... but if you are so concerned with living in this blessed country... you should "do as the Romans do."


I was browsing xanga's and this guys had a few words to say about the ordeal too.
http://www.xanga.com/Thi_Tie/479798...ing-my-lip.html



"America the Beautiful"
"Give me liberty or give me death"
"One nation UNDER God"

Forever will my loyalty be...
Forever an American.


GOD bless America.


-Hannah-

mk kid
05-08-2006, 10:01 AM
Alex thanks for clearing that up. i agree with what you said and it makes sense. i was only using the we should comply by the rules comment in case anyone is trying to downplay that issue. and yes it is about wether or not to change the laws. but at the same time it still also comes back to do you believe these people are breaking the law or not. i personally agree they are. but all this aside thanks for clearing that up. Mk kid

skilletosis
05-13-2006, 07:54 PM
Chris,
I'm not sure what you are exactly referring to as the "land issue,"

Aspargus there is most definately a movement reqarding the land issue. Here's a link http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm there's an interesting article and if you scroll down there are links to the references. Now I haven't checked all of it out but this is just to give you a little information on the land issue. Also if you google aztlan or atzlan you will find a bevy of info.

skilletosis
05-15-2006, 10:05 AM
I am looking forward to the presidential address on immigration this evening. It should be quite interesting. This is one of the very few issues that I don't agree with Mr. Bush on. I am sure there will be plenty of good commentary and debate to come.

theelectric3
05-16-2006, 11:29 AM
so... what are everyone's thoughts on the President's ideas?

skilletosis
05-16-2006, 11:40 AM
I think I'm fired. I had a major headache and didn't realize the time until the speech was well over. I think I need to find a transcript of the speech.

timmyrotter
05-16-2006, 11:46 AM
he side stepped the realt solution, sending them home... but he did what i thought, appeased everyone... as for "securing the border" they arent going to stop illegals from coming over, but they will stop drugs and weapons. if they wanted to really stop drugs and weapons they could not let illegals over period, and then there would be little to no chance of weapons and drugs coming over. but politicians are a bunch of pansies...

unshakeable15
05-16-2006, 06:57 PM
I think I'm fired. I had a major headache and didn't realize the time until the speech was well over. I think I need to find a transcript of the speech.
All presidential speeches are found on whitehouse.gov. Specifically, this would be the speech (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/05/20060515-8.html) you're looking for.

bob
05-17-2006, 03:20 PM
The problem with Bush is that he tries to please everyone by taking a middle stance and in doing so no one likes his discisions. He never takes an extremist viewpoint on a topic, which is why a lot of people don't like him. The thing I didn't like what he said he wasn't giving amnesty when he wasn't forcing the illegal immigrants in our country stay. Sure he said that they'll learn English and then they'll have a chance to stay. I just rolled my eyes and turned my tv off.

cloroxmartini
05-17-2006, 05:10 PM
The problem with Bush is that he tries to please everyone by taking a middle stance and in doing so no one likes his discisions.
...or in doing so, really doesn't get anything done.

bob
05-17-2006, 05:19 PM
...or in doing so, really doesn't get anything done.

Agreed. Bush simply has to get over the fact that he can't please everyone and democrats will hate him no matter what he does. Of course it doesn't help that he's ticked off his own party.

cloroxmartini
05-17-2006, 05:21 PM
Heh, yes. It will be pretty difficult for him to gain the trust of either side in this case.

skilletosis
05-22-2006, 10:51 AM
My quick thoughts are this. There is no reason that we must have a bill that covers all of the issues. Let's pass a bill on getting the border secure first. We need current laws enforced, real penalties for those who illegally enter and those who hire them first. Then let's tackle the illegal immigration issues. I think the guest worker program is extremely flawed. There a big time issues when it comes to how many family members they will be allowed to bring over if they do become citizens. I read something like up to 7 family members both immediate and not (heard a quick blurb about it, don't have full info). I did like that Bush addressed the assimilation into becoming Americans. This still remains an issue that I am in big disagreement with Bush.

skilletosis
05-29-2006, 09:58 AM
I think the next couple of weeks will be interesting. Both the House and the Senate are writing bill. Personally I prefer the House bill. I won't cry if nothing passes at first if that means that they keep working toward getting a good solid bill. Then they need to enforce it. There are laws already regarding employers that should have been enforced and haven't. I hate the way the guest worker program gives a "path to citizenship (amnesty)" but I like the biometric ID for temporary workers. That will make enforcement on employer accountability easier. But first and foremost we need a secure border. I hate to say it Bush gets a big fat F for waiting this long to address the border. Why on earth wasn't this addressed for national security reasons? Why did they wait till we completely spazzed over illegal immigration to decide that this was important.

Many here are of voting age, and many will be soon. We need to pay attention to what our Representatives and Senators are doing. And when they aren't serving the needs of the constituents then we need to hit them where it hurts. At the voting booth.

somasoul
05-29-2006, 10:26 AM
What makes you think those senators and representatives care what we think? Do they have a record of caring about what the majority think in their respective districts?

I certainly don't think so.

terrasin
05-29-2006, 10:31 AM
I agree that the whole path to citizenship is a load of crap. But on the other side, I can't see us deporting 2million mexicans. I think it would thrash our economy for quite some time and we would be seeing a massive rise in price for products like fruits and veggies and others that mexicans dominate the work field in.

I also think that businesses that hire illegals should be punnished with at least a 1million dollar fine and subject to probation for 5 years after with restrictions on pricing so they couldn't raise prices on their products unless they were losing money in which case they would be able to raise it only enough to break even. I don't feel sorry for businesses that hire illegal workers.

CJ

skilletosis
05-29-2006, 12:59 PM
What makes you think those senators and representatives care what we think? Do they have a record of caring about what the majority think in their respective districts?

I certainly don't think so.

The day that we voters get off of our lazy rear ends and start voting poor performing Reps and Senators out of office is the day that they will start to care about what the constituents want.

Deportation of all is not feesable but we simply cannot give them all citizenship either. There does need to be a fair amount of deportation so that they get that we mean business. For instance when an illegal is arrested they aren't deported. In Socal when a cop questions someone they aren't allowed to question their legal status. That is such a load of baloney. Enforcement can't be left up to only INS and Border Patrol. The coyotees need real punishment also.

We need to make it extrememly difficult to cross the border; extremely difficult to become a citizen; extremely difficult to work without proper id. We should not offer no questions asked education for children that are illegal immigrants or children of illegal immigrants.

More later.

somasoul
05-29-2006, 01:03 PM
Why can't we give them citizenship? Is there something I don't know about?

Isildur9473
05-29-2006, 02:12 PM
Why can't we give them citizenship? Is there something I don't know about?

Why should we give 11 million illegals citizenship?

skilletosis
05-29-2006, 03:26 PM
Why can't we give them citizenship? Is there something I don't know about?

Because disrespectors of the law should not be rewarded. You earn (that's right I said earn not deserve) citizenship by going through the proper process. You do know that what they have done is illegal don't you.

somasoul
05-29-2006, 06:50 PM
Warning: Strong language and vast amounts of cynicism ahead.

Because disrespectors of the law should not be rewarded. You earn (that's right I said earn not deserve) citizenship by going through the proper process. You do know that what they have done is illegal don't you.

Sorry. I don't really obey laws. Especially stupid ones that only exist to claim ownership over other people, their property and their lives.

We don't own these people. And we don't own the homes they buy. As such, I don't really care.

Why should we give 11 million illegals citizenship?

THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION!!!!!!!!

I'm glad you asked:

Here's exactly why illegal aliens should be given citizenship:

1) No matter how much anyone wants to we simply cannot deport all these people. It's not possibly. It would create a police state of unimaginable size. It would cost billions.......trillions of dollars. It would create government beaucracy of an untold scale. It would be as successful as the drug war.

Honestly? Deporting them would never work. It'd be an nightmare and a total failure.

So since deportation is an inpossiblity there's only two logical options left

1) Guest worker program
2) Citizenship

Now, alot of people support the guest worker program. Because it's a nice sounding compromise. Let me tell ya. What America needs is another second class of 'citizens' who have less rights than the rest of society. Pick up any history book and see what happens when you create an entire populace every one else looks down on.

Let's see. There's South Africa and where you had the white upper class and the black underclass, that was a total success, right? The same here in the states up until 40 years ago. Oh, how about all those France riots last year? How'd that start? Turkish Muslims. The French said "Oh, hey, here's all these different colored folk. Let's start a........uh.......GUEST WORKER PROGRAM!!!! Results? How about one burned down city! Woo-Hoo! Or the Hutu's and the Tutsies. What'd we get? Rwanda! Or the current crisis in the Sudan! All scenerios created by giving favor to some and less favor to others. People have this ability, and call me crazy, that if you legalize oppression they can get a little miffed. Go figure. And all this time you thought they'd be handing over their virgin daughters as a sign of thanks.

So in case you missed the headlines: There are about 14 million illegals here. And they are fiercly communal, unlike how we Americans have become. They have the ability to organize. They've done it already all over the country. You really want to piss them off?

YEAH, CREATING SECOND CLASS CITIZENS IS EXACTLY WHAT AMERICA NEEDS!!! WOO-HOO!!! The only question left is: "What do I get to loot first once the chaos starts?"

Now the forces of logic take over and only leave one reasonable solution:

Legalize the illegals before they take over. Because they will. They want a share of the pie. And nothing short of a police state unlike one we've ever seen will stop them. Are you willing to give up your constitutional rights to remove these poeple? Because that's exactly what it will take.

You don't have to like the fact that they're here. But they are. And they ain't going anywhere.

skilletosis
05-30-2006, 05:29 PM
*****Sorry. I don't really obey laws.****

What makes you so special that you are above the law.

****Especially stupid ones that only exist to claim ownership over other people, their property and their lives.*****

This isn't about ownership of people. It's about what makes one an American citizen and illegally crossing the border isn't the path to becoming an American citizen.

A guest worker program doesn't create second class citizens. It gives an avenue for those who CHOOSE(it's a choice, nobody is getting their arms twisted here)to come and work here to support themselves and their families. If they don't like the program they can also choose not to come. Knowing that guest workers went through the proper channels to come and are obeying the law and paying taxes would lessen the tension between those who are here legally and those who aren't. You know why because they would be obeying and respecting our law(yes the law, the rules we govern ourselves by). A guest worker program could work as long as it is not a path to citizenship.

****So in case you missed the headlines: There are about 14 million illegals here. And they are fiercly communal, unlike how we Americans have become. They have the ability to organize. They've done it already all over the country. You really want to piss them off?****

Just as we will not let the fear of terrorism rule our lives I won't be feared into giving in to the wants of illegal aliens. Yes they are here and we have to deal with it. There's more than one way to deal with it and giving them citizenship is not the answer; there are other answers. I already addressed deportation and yes I do beleive that a large number should and can be deported. We need to show that we are serious about our laws. This could most definately be achieved without making this a police state.

somasoul
05-30-2006, 06:19 PM
What makes you so special that you are above the law.

I'm not special. I just believe, like our founders, that we born with "unalienable rights". I don't believe anyone owns the world and I think peaceable people should come and go as they so choose.

This isn't about ownership of people. It's about what makes one an American citizen and illegally crossing the border isn't the path to becoming an American citizen.

Dude, this is all about ownership. It's all about these questions: "Who owns American's land?" "What legal classification do we give these people?" or "How do we claim ownership of their actions?" "What property and where are these people allowed to own it?" The entire thing is all about ownership!

A guest worker program doesn't create second class citizens.

Houston, we have a problem.

It gives an avenue for those who CHOOSE(it's a choice, nobody is getting their arms twisted here)to come and work here to support themselves and their families.

One minute you hate the free market........

If they don't like the program they can also choose not to come.

..........and the next you love it.

I love free market capitalism because it gives us choices. I don't like being regulated I don't like regulating other people's lives who don't wish me any harm.

Knowing that guest workers went through the proper channels to come and are obeying the law and paying taxes would lessen the tension between those who are here legally and those who aren't.

Let's just say that if you live anywhere west of the appalachian mountain then you broke the first treaty the Native Americans had with a newly formed America and you reside there illegally. Please vacate the premises or your possessions will be thrown onto Montana.

A guest worker program could work as long as it is not a path to citizenship.

NOT a path to citizenship? Dude, didn't you just see what happened in France? Pick up a history book. Economic equality is the only stabilizing force in the history of this planet. By not giving citizenship and allowing them to stay you are breeding an army and reason for civil war! Golly-day, deportation is better than chaos and civil unrest! Between deportation and legislated economic opression I'll take deportation!

Just as we will not let the fear of terrorism rule our lives I won't be feared into giving in to the wants of illegal aliens.

Are these people really that bad that we can draw lines between terrorists and Mexican day laborors?

I already addressed deportation and yes I do beleive that a large number should and can be deported.

Let's talk deportation. Now, I'm a patriot and I believe in good ole fashioned American values like Apple Pie and Log Cabins and baseball............okay, I hate baseball. I admit. I must be a terrorist or french or something........

Anyway. There are 14,000,000 of these people. Let's say it costs $1 to deport each one. That's $14,000,000. But let's get real here. A plane ticket from New York to Mexico is $441 (Cheapest price via Expedia.com)

so 441 X 14,000,000 = 6,174,000,000

So we are up to about 6 BILLION dollars in airfare alone. That's a hefty bill. And that's airfare alone. Now imagine all the officers to employ. Let's say you got 1,000 officers who work on just tracking these people down. And let's say they earn the country's mean income which is about 35,000 grand a year. That's another 35,000,000 a year. Now let's say that each officer arrests one illegal per day.

14,000,000/1000 = 14,000

So it'll only take 14,000 days to arrest every single illegal alien in the country. That's 38 years plus some. And that's if no more illegals ever come into the country.

So your idea that it can be done, that it is a solution, is absurd. Like I said before. It'd take the loss of governmental freedoms and the loss of constitutionally protected rights unlike anything we've ever seen before. It'd cost gazillions of dollars. We'd rob the taxpayer poor to arrest illegal aliens who really aren't doing anything illegal other then simply existing here. You can't just round these people up and send 'em on their way. You'd need buses. Gas cards. Guys with guns. Health insurance. Offices. It'd be another huge bloated government beaurucracy. A cash cow.

One more thing about such governmental agencies. They never work! Why? Because you'd be emplying people to rid themselves of their own jobs! It's like: "Hey Joe. Better go catch those illegals. The quicker we do that the quicker we get to be...........unemployed!" Man, nothing makes people work hard at their job like the prospect of once the task is completed you get to go sit in the unemployment office. That really gets me wound up. No wonder we have the CIA, NSA, FBI, ATF, Homeland Security, Coast Guard. What a job the ATF has done on illegal firearms and drugs, huh? Despite their constant efforts over the span of......uh, 200 years I can still get drugs delivered to my door quicker than a pizza. Any glance into a history book will tell you such things rarely work because there is no reason for them to! The completetion of the task dries up the cash cow and everyone goes home unemployed and jobless.

We need to show that we are serious about our laws. This could most definately be achieved without making this a police state.

It most definetly could not be done without placing the entire country on lockdown. That's what it would take. Believing that deportation is a simple solution is............foolish.

skilletosis
05-30-2006, 07:23 PM
****'m not special. I just believe, like our founders, that we born with "unalienable rights". I don't believe anyone owns the world and I think peaceable people should come and go as they so choose.****

It's nice that you believe that but that does not over-ride the fact that the United States is a sovreign country with borders and laws. You don't have to agree with them but you must obey them. These laws are set to provide a peacable environment for our country. Choosing to not abide by those laws does not make one peacable it makes them disrespectful rebels.

****Dude, this is all about ownership. It's all about these questions: "Who owns American's land?" "What legal classification do we give these people?" or "How do we claim ownership of their actions?" "What property and where are these people allowed to own it?" The entire thing is all about ownership!****

First I'm not a dude. Second read my last paragraph it applies to this statement as well. Thirdly it sounds like someones been reading up on Atzlan or Aztlan (I've seen it spelled both ways).

****Houston, we have a problem.****

Just because I disagree doesn't mean I have a problem. I disagree with you but I choose to present a well thought out debate.

****One minute you hate the free market........and the next you love it.I love free market capitalism because it gives us choices. I don't like being regulated I don't like regulating other people's lives who don't wish me any harm.****

Giving them the "choice" to follow our laws or don't come at all has nothing to do with the free market.

*****Dude, didn't you just see what happened in France?*****

Again I'm not a dude. The problem with France was that they opened their doors wide open to immigration and the government didn't do anything to create jobs. There was no opertunity.

****So your idea that it can be done, that it is a solution, is absurd.****
****It most definetly could not be done without placing the entire country on lockdown. That's what it would take. Believing that deportation is a simple solution is............foolish.****

You obviously didn't read what I wrote on deportation over the last couple of pages of posts. I never said deport them all. Maybe you should be clear on what I said before you call it absurd or foolish. This needs to be a one step at a time process. With a good solid protected border it would be lockout not lockdown.

All this being said I am not writing the bills that govern our country. So I'm not going to give a comprehensive step by step. There are many viable things that can be done but pushing through bills that cover too many aspects of issue too quickly can make the majority of the bill a failure.

asparagus
05-30-2006, 07:54 PM
Skilletosis,
I appreciate your calm and thoughtful writings, which make me think that there is a lot to be said for your position on this issue. However, I do have one area that I am not so sure about. I am curious if you (or anyone else), think there is a feasible and efficient way to deport existing illegal immigrants while also preventing future illegal immigrants?

As I've suggested before, I fear that deporting the existing illegal immigrant population would be almost completely unfeasible. Outside of other criminal justice costs (like trials, lawyers, judges, ambassadors, border enforcement, and the infrastructure for all that), we should remember that incarceration, by itself tends to run at $20,000/year/person. By comparison, that's more than three times as much money than what my state gives to local schools to educate a pupil per year.

As much as I may not want to admit it, it just doesn't seem feasible to deport them all. And Isildur's solution of just "shooting them" sounds a little too anti-EverythingAmericaStandsFor to me. (I think Greg himself might agree.)

Apologies for only coming up with problems and not proposing a solution.

theelectric3
05-30-2006, 08:18 PM
the thing that concerns me over not deporting them is the message that it sends.

to the legal immigrants who worked hard, waited and got their green card. it sends the message that all your hard work to be legal means nothing. you just have to find a way to cross the border and stay for a certain period of time and everything will be ok.

and what's to be done to those who hired illegal immigrants? it's ok? so those who obey the law by not hiring illegals.. are they going to suffer (financially speaking) because they obeyed the law? while those who hired illegals for less pay get more money for their services?

who's going to uphold the law if those who break it are rewarded?

i'm concerned that this message will come across if we let the illegals stay. even if they have families... i'm sorry. we welcome immigrants but we have standards and rules that you have to obey. and then you need to become part of our soceity and be loyal to America.

i've heard that some young hispanics say if America is at war with a foreign nation, they will fight with Amercia. but if we go to war against mexico, they will fight with mexico against America.

and that's wrong. you need to become a part of soceity in order to be here. learn our history, language and way of life.

it's good to know your culture and roots... but you should always be loyal to America first. (if you are a citizen here.)

skilletosis
05-30-2006, 09:26 PM
Asparagus, I know that deporting all of them is not feasable. First we need to secure the border properly. As far as deportation goes I would start with giving the police the authority to question the status of anyone they question. We need to deport all of those who we have encarcerated (it would be up to Mexico to either encarcerate them there or let them go free). Deport those who are arrested and found guilty of crimes. I know your going to say "court costs" but many of these crimes are for things like shoplifting and possesion of narcotics and controled substances. Those crimes don't cost more to ajudicate than one good trip to the ER costs taxpayers(then the offender would be out of our country and unable to cost us any more). Deport women who have given birth here and don't give them automatic status. Let the baby have citizenship on the condition that they are given to a legal citizen guardian or legal citizen adoptive parent. Deport any and all single men and women. Immediate deportation for anyone found during an employement raid that doesn't have proper documentation.

These are just starting ideas. We have to start somewhere and show that we mean it when we say our laws will be enforced. Right now there is no fear of deportation. All it looks like to them is a golden opertunity if they get across the border. Come to America, find work, get paid tax free, have kids at the hospital and don't pay, go to er and don't pay, get your kids eduated for free, and if you wait long enough amnesty. We have make it so that there isn't an incentive to break the law. Some of these ideas are for before a guest worker program can start and some are after it's implemented.

somasoul
05-31-2006, 05:10 AM
Here's my question (All cynical remarks aside)

What harm are these people actually comitting?

useofpronouns
05-31-2006, 06:38 AM
it's good to know your culture and roots... but you should always be loyal to America first. (if you are a citizen here.)


I agree with you completely. This is a legal process. Not just some random thing one can chose to do. It's a protection for one's own country; not a hidden racist way to keep who we want out. Once you are a citizen of the US... then, the US (not wherever) is one's loyalty. One shouldn't live here and reap all the benefits American society has to offer just to drop it when the peoples' loyalty is needed most.

MeNtAlCaSe
05-31-2006, 08:02 AM
Here's my question (All cynical remarks aside)

What harm are these people actually comitting?The issue is one of following the law. We have standards and procedures to go through to enter this country. We allow X number of skilled and unskilled people in, based on the requirements of our economy. We know about how much each immigrant will cost (for lack of a better term). Illegal immigrants want all the benefits and pay basically no tax to help support the infrastructure that supports them. I'm not saying that there aren't jobs for them, but the immigration process is lengthy to weed out the undesirable element (criminals, disease carriers, etc). They have DEMANDED special treatment like government business conducted in their own language, businesses put up multilingual signs, hire multilingual workers. My ancestors (Native American not included) demanded no special treatment. They wasnted to fit in, wanted to be Americans first and foremost. They were Swedes, Germans, Irish who just happened to be in America.

If there are jobs for them, then maybe Mexico should do a little more to keep more modern records which would facillitate a work visa, emmigration process.

skilletosis
05-31-2006, 08:32 AM
Here's my question (All cynical remarks aside)

What harm are these people actually comitting?

The answers to your question have been covered in posts 5, 16, 21, 58, 30, 36, 38, 40, 41, 45, 46, 56, 62, 66, 71, 77, 78, 80, 81, 87, 93, 96, 99, 103, 105, 106, 107, 110, 111, 112, 117, 122, 125, 127, 128, 138, 142, 143, 144, 157, 161, 167, and 171. Go back and read them.

But I am glad that you admit that you don't follow the law so that we understand you don't respect it. How do you expect that your opinion will be respected at all if you can't even respect the law. Your disrespect of our laws takes away the credibility of your debate.

skilletosis
05-31-2006, 08:36 AM
Oh and the cost to deport that you quoted is flawed beyond belief. The closer to the border the cheaper it is to deport. I wouldn't stick someone in San Diego County on a plane. I'd load up a bus at less than a quarter of the cost and dump them out across the border (of course this is only speaking of the Mexican illegals). With a fenced and secured border we would save the American tax payers millions in medical and educational expenses alone.

Oh one little idea I had is if they do pass a guest worker program. I would like to see those who apply and show docs that they are already living here to not just pay a fine. I would like to see them pay a higher tax rate in order to reimburse hospitals, schools, and other social programs that they have benefited from while living here illegally.

somasoul
05-31-2006, 09:25 AM
The answers to your question have been covered in posts 5, 16, 21, 58, 30, 36, 38, 40, 41, 45, 46, 56, 62, 66, 71, 77, 78, 80, 81, 87, 93, 96, 99, 103, 105, 106, 107, 110, 111, 112, 117, 122, 125, 127, 128, 138, 142, 143, 144, 157, 161, 167, and 171. Go back and read them.

I think you made these numbers up. Post number 5 has nothing to do reasons why they should stay out of our country

But I am glad that you admit that you don't follow the law so that we understand you don't respect it.

No. I don't respect the law. Our lawmakers have lost their frickin' heads. Can't smoke in bars. Gotta wear a seatbelt. They'll arrest you for eating in a subway station. These people sit around and think up ways to run our lives! I certainly don't respect them! The laws they pass are senseless and the best is...........they don't even read them before they pass them! So forget them and their silly laws. Screw them and their endless beaurucracy! I've had enough!


How do you expect that your opinion will be respected at all if you can't even respect the law.

I dunno. How do you think you'll be respected by me if you give approval to this endless governmental boondoggle that is ever increasing in power, size, scope and approves of unconstitutional legislation any chance they get? They are looking up our phone records. Jailing people without pressing charges. Trying to say that the search of Congressman William
Jefferson was a breach of the seperation of powers.

These people have lost their frickin' minds!

Your disrespect of our laws takes away the credibility of your debate.

My disrespect of the law is exactly the kind of sensibility this country has lost.

No wonder there is so much crime........it's illegal to do anything anymore! Everyone is a criminal! Send me to jail! Let's all go! (They did, by the way, for not renewing my registration on my car)

Did you know that, currently, .7% of the US population resides in a prison cell? That's one in every 136 people! Insane! Currently in jail, not former prisoners. Then the number gets higher. And if you're a black male.........well, let's just say odds are you'll be staying in a prison cell sometime during you life.

So, again, no, I don't respect the law. Because our lawmakers have made us all criminals.

You irritation with me or illegals or GodHatesFags.com is not reason enough for legislation.

skilletosis
05-31-2006, 10:05 AM
5 was a typo, meant to hit 2.

skilletosis
05-31-2006, 10:18 AM
****No. I don't respect the law. Our lawmakers have lost their frickin' heads. Can't smoke in bars. Gotta wear a seatbelt. They'll arrest you for eating in a subway station. These people sit around and think up ways to run our lives! I certainly don't respect them! The laws they pass are senseless and the best is...........they don't even read them before they pass them! So forget them and their silly laws. Screw them and their endless beaurucracy! I've had enough!****

That is a huge red herring. The topic is illegal immigration not any of the things you mentioned. I could name plenty of laws that are completely sensible but again that is off topic. Most of the rest of your post has nothing to do with the topic. Alot of the rest of your post can be addressed in other existing threads on the boards.


****You irritation with me or illegals or GodHatesFags.com is not reason enough for legislation.****

I'm not irritated with you. I have the ability to debate in a calm and well thought out manner. I am extremely irritated with the illegal immigration situation that we currently have while retaining the ability to calmly debate. And another big red herring Godhatesfags.com has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

Let's keep the topics where they should be. This one is illegal immigration/the opinions on the protests. Just as we have laws that are there to keep order in our nation we have threads for specific topics to keep order on the boards.

timmyrotter
05-31-2006, 12:14 PM
well im angry! im about to go hulk on our southern boarder, and all the morons in our country, including the makers of Lost.

somasoul
05-31-2006, 01:10 PM
That is a huge red herring.

I agree. I wasn't talking about illegal immigration, rather, I was issuing a counterpoint based on the comments about how I should respect the law. Those comments were placed in this forum and as such my tangent reflected the argument that I should somehow respect the law.

Just as we have laws that are there to keep order in our nation we have threads for specific topics to keep order on the boards.

In this instance the laws are going to create chaos unlike what anyone can imagine. I bet that if the situation remains the way it is or a permenant guest worker program are established we'll see riots. Needless to say, if things remain the way we are American businessmen will merely grow angier over their situation of being forced to hire illegals to compete with other business' who currently do.

All the problems expressed with illegals can be solved with citizenship besides two:

1) Illegals still have circumvented the system thus making all the folks who worked so hard to come here legally look like chumps.

2) South Americans will still send American money south of the border.

Besides those two things I cannot think of any other problems that citizenship will not solve. Can you?

skilletosis
05-31-2006, 08:45 PM
The problem that wouldn't be solved by giving them citizenship is that they will have learned that they don't need to follow the rules and will be rewarded for it. We will still be paying throught the noses with our tax dollars for a bunch of disrespectors of our laws. And our elected leaders will have succeeded in the face slapping heard around the nation being applied to every immigrant who went through the proper process to earn citizenship. Citizenship for immigrants must be earned.

Pretendeavor
05-31-2006, 10:53 PM
if the send all the illegal immigrants back. im gonna miss seen the mexicans at walmart.
walmart wont be the same without seen a mexican.

timmyrotter
06-01-2006, 09:37 AM
hopefully Wal*Mart goes to mexico wiht the mexican working there...

Isildur9473
06-01-2006, 02:01 PM
What are you guys talking about? I live in an area that has quite a few Hispanics, and both Wal-Mart's are populated by people from all over the ethnic spectrum.

Pretendeavor
06-01-2006, 03:01 PM
hopefully Wal*Mart goes to mexico wiht the mexican working there...


hey now i love walmart. if it saves me a few dollors on crap i shop there.

asparagus
06-01-2006, 07:35 PM
Illegal immigrants want all the benefits and pay basically no tax to help support the infrastructure that supports them. I'm curious how you know what they want? Did you find this out from a statistical survey or what?They have DEMANDED special treatment like government business conducted in their own language, businesses put up multilingual signs, hire multilingual workers.I don't think that is a big deal. Do you really think it is a big deal that businesses do that? I mean, why does that offend you? My ancestors (Native American not included) demanded no special treatment. They wasnted to fit in, wanted to be Americans first and foremost. They were Swedes, Germans, Irish who just happened to be in America. You somehow think Mexicans want to be less American than other immigrants? Where did you get this information?

terrasin
06-01-2006, 11:23 PM
I think the one thing that erks me the most about mexicans in this country is the language thing. They want everyone else to conform to them so that they don't have to learn the language. It's like MeNtAlCaSe stated, you are more likely to get a job in southern states if you speak spanish. An American shouldn't need to speak spanish to get a job here. I don't speak spanish and I have no desire to learn it. This is America, an English speaking country.

CJ

timmyrotter
06-02-2006, 06:56 AM
woo! preachen to the chior CJ!

skilletosis
06-04-2006, 04:58 PM
Asparagus I will respond to your post but it will have to be after we finish moving. Be back on in about 10 days.

skilletosis
06-05-2006, 07:02 AM
I'm curious how you know what they want? Did you find this out from a statistical survey or what?I don't think that is a big deal. Do you really think it is a big deal that businesses do that? I mean, why does that offend you? You somehow think Mexicans want to be less American than other immigrants? Where did you get this information?


I woke up extra early and couldn't go back to sleep this morning and thought I would take advantage of the last day of internet for a week while waiting for the hubby to go get coffee (yes we packed the coffee maker).

We know what they want and that they are demanding it because they took to the streets and held protests. We don't need statistics when we live in areas that are heavily populated with many illegals. During these protest they shouted their demands. That's what prompted this whole thread.

I do think it's a big deal when public schools, government offices, and hospitals have to spend the money on printing everything in spanish also. That's alot of paper and toner. Now if it's a business that chooses to print in spanish that is a business decision. However their are tons of jobs that require spanish that I would not be able to get.

Now when I worked at the auto auction due to our location on auction day 70% of those who came were from Mexico (meaning they crossed the border on a weekly basis to come. This business was not open to the general public. We weren't required to speak spanish. There were many bilingual employees because most of them were Mexicans (just so you know that was no big deal to me other than the one that was a resident alien). But even they felt that if you were going to come to America and do business that's your choice and you should learn english.

I know alot of people who's families immigrated from countries of hispanic origin. They applied to come and when they came they made it a priority to learn english (that was a requirement). And they were happy to do it. Here in Socal many don't bother to learn english. I have gone into stores and been greeted in spanish on many occasions and I am so white that you couldn't just assume that I speak spanish. There's a store out here called Cardenas. You can get the best carnitas on earth there. But I only went a couple of times. When I've gone I couldn't get help because most of the employees only spoke spanish. When they announced a special over the p.a. they announced in spanish only. People looked at me like "what are you doing here". I wasn't made to feel welcome at all.

At the public schools they take time out of class for the kids to practice the Mexican hat dance and then they whole school has an assembly for it on Cinco de Mayo. Why on earth should our kids loose out on educational time to observe another countries holiday. It irks me when public parks are taken over for the day for cinco de mayo parties and they announce on the news that the local gangs have called a truce for the day for the celebrations. It's nothing more but a reason for vendors to sell crap so they overlook the fact that it's another countries holiday.

I had many friends who either their parents (many times just the mom) or both grandparents didn't speak any english yet they had been in America for many years.

When my daughter was in elementary school she was invited to spend the night at her friends house. I told her no because the parents spoke no english. I was especially pleased that I denied her the opertunity when a month later my friend told me that her daughter had also been invited and she learned that there were 7 yes that's 7 uncles living in the house also. The house had 4 bedrooms. So there was mom, dad, kids (3 or 4), and 7 yes 7 uncles (I don't know if any were married) living under that roof.

A while ago my I took my kids to a nieghbors as they were having a birthday party for one of their kids. They had 4 pinatas. They sang a song in spanish and I guess it said when your turn was over. When it was my sons turn they started screaming at him at the end of the song. He had no idea what they were saying because they all screamed in spanish. So I just took a deep breath and screamed over the whole crowd that we don't speak spanish. You should have seen the stunned faces at the thought of the little white boy can't speak spanish. They expected us to.

It is one thing to remember traditions. It's another thing to not try to assimilate into the American culture.

zeroneff
07-12-2006, 02:46 PM
hopefully Wal*Mart goes to mexico wiht the mexican working there...

lol gues what there is alredy in mexico bigger than the one here!!!:P

NightCrawler
07-13-2006, 07:40 AM
I think the one thing that erks me the most about mexicans in this country is the language thing. They want everyone else to conform to them so that they don't have to learn the language. It's like MeNtAlCaSe stated, you are more likely to get a job in southern states if you speak spanish. An American shouldn't need to speak spanish to get a job here. I don't speak spanish and I have no desire to learn it. This is America, an English speaking country.

CJ

They are people too. Why don't you want to communicate with them? The MAJORITY of America is english speaking. By the sound of your argument, people that come in and don't speak english aren't Americans. Not true.

Why not learn a second language? It is fun and good. You will benefit in MANY ways. Spanish, german, ...even French. :: gulp :: I said it.

timmyrotter
07-13-2006, 09:07 AM
They are people too. Why don't you want to communicate with them? The MAJORITY of America is english speaking. By the sound of your argument, people that come in and don't speak english aren't Americans. Not true.

Why not learn a second language? It is fun and good. You will benefit in MANY ways. Spanish, german, ...even French. :: gulp :: I said it.

i dont think CJ was saying that because they dont want to learn our language that they arent human.

if someone comes to your house uses your things, shouldnt they do the courtesy of doing something as simply as adapting to your ways. (not in every way)

i went to mexico last summer, and when i ordered food, asked for things, i did my best to do it in spanish. i didnt barge into thier country (and i went there legally) and go blabbing my language expecting them to adapt to me. no i adapted to them. and you know what, even if my spanish wasnt perfect, i know they respected me for that.

learning other languages is useful, i dont deny that, its very great IF YOU PLAN ON TRAVELING. as in going there, no so we can becomea multi-lingual country. but if you want 300 million americans to learn another language, thats ridiculous! when you can have the less than 1 million mexicans that come here learn english.

BAM!!!

Reeper
07-13-2006, 09:56 AM
They are people too. Why don't you want to communicate with them? The MAJORITY of America is english speaking. By the sound of your argument, people that come in and don't speak english aren't Americans. Not true.

Why not learn a second language? It is fun and good. You will benefit in MANY ways. Spanish, german, ...even French. :: gulp :: I said it.

I find it interesting that such a big advocate of people learning a second language doesn't seem to think that mexicans should learn a second language. And not only a second language, a language which is virtually the universal language of the world, a language which will greatly aid them in life. Just found that interesting.

Peace

terrasin
07-13-2006, 12:15 PM
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith
becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated
on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man
because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.
But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also,
isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...
We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...
and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Just as if I moved to Italy or Greece, I wouldn't expect or even want them to conform to me. I should be EXPECTED to learn Greek or Italian. Same goes for this country. If people come here to live and work, I expect them to learn our national language and use it with me.

EDIT: For the record, I know Quenya, but that's not even a true world language. I am going to be learning Latin sometime in the future, but as of now it's a low priority on my list. :P

CJ

NightCrawler
07-14-2006, 07:35 AM
i dont think CJ was saying that because they dont want to learn our language that they arent human.
I may have come off sounding like that, but I meant they are Americans, not just human. This is their new home, and they deserve the decency of being treated like a human living at home.

I find it interesting that such a big advocate of people learning a second language doesn't seem to think that mexicans should learn a second language. And not only a second language, a language which is virtually the universal language of the world, a language which will greatly aid them in life. Just found that interesting.

Peace

You make some rather flagerant assumptions. Have you seen my previous posts in this thread? Where did you get the idea that I would suggest that mexicans not learn english?

NightCrawler
07-14-2006, 07:44 AM
Just as if I moved to Italy or Greece, I wouldn't expect or even want them to conform to me. I should be EXPECTED to learn Greek or Italian. Same goes for this country. If people come here to live and work, I expect them to learn our national language and use it with me.

EDIT: For the record, I know Quenya, but that's not even a true world language. I am going to be learning Latin sometime in the future, but as of now it's a low priority on my list. :P

CJ

But what if there are two national languages?

dawn of light
07-14-2006, 08:51 AM
But what if there are two national languages?

Canada is bilingual...French and English

Only about 18% of the population can speak both French and English though. Quebec is the only "French" province. New Brunswich is the only officially "bilingual" province. All the other provinces are english.

In most places bilingual education/public services are offered. People who speak french generally know english. But if you're in Quebec you're expected to speak french.

Reeper
07-14-2006, 10:02 AM
You make some rather flagerant assumptions. Have you seen my previous posts in this thread?

Yes, and yet my "flagerant assumptions" remain.

Where did you get the idea that I would suggest that mexicans not learn english?

No idea. Maybe it was when you told someone to learn a second language in order to communicate with them. But I might be wrong.

Peace

NightCrawler
07-14-2006, 10:54 AM
Yes, and yet my "flagerant assumptions" remain.



No idea. Maybe it was when you told someone to learn a second language in order to communicate with them. But I might be wrong.

Peace

I never said mexicans that immigrate to USA should not learn english. Never have I taken this stance. In fact, I oppose it.

I think that people that come in contact with people that speak another language often, should learn the language. For example, if I come into contact with a lot of Spanish speaking customers, wouldn't I (as a businessman) want to learn Spanish? But at the same time, if I want to work at a predominately English speaking workplace or something, wouldn't I want to learn English?

It goes both ways, but it is MORE important for the minority to learn the majority's language. Why? Because that is how communication works -- the core of language.

Reeper
07-14-2006, 11:48 AM
^ o.k.

Peace

terrasin
07-14-2006, 12:34 PM
But what if there are two national languages?
There aren't. And I don't think there ever will be because of the politics surrounding that kind of decision.

It's more important that they learn the English language because it is the agreed upon language of the country, and pretty much the rest of the world. I once heard that the USA was one vote away from being a german speaking country, but I'm not sure how true that is.

CJ

somasoul
09-04-2006, 04:49 PM
It's more important that they learn the English language because it is the agreed upon language of the country

No it's not. Where do people get this stuff?

People can speak whatever language they want. If they want to talk to English speaking folk then they can learn the language. If you want to speak to them, learn theirs.

terrasin
09-04-2006, 05:13 PM
You missed the point. If a person works in the USA and speaks a different language than I do, it will be impossible for me to communicate with them. I should not have to learn a new language in order to go about my daily business whether it be the people I work with, the people at stores, or people I need to interact in order to accomplish set tasks. It is that persons duty if they choose to live and work in this country to learn the national language so that there is no barrier of communication.

In california when I was pretty much the head of my department at a factory in Corona, 95% of the people I worked with were mexican. Not only that, but barely any of them knew a word of english, nor did they attempt to learn. It was irritating trying to give them instructions or directions, and because of that, our production was slowed majorly. This eventually was one of the key factors to everyone in the plant apart from 12 people being layed off before Christmas.

Thus, I stand by my words.

CJ

Spiffles
09-04-2006, 05:35 PM
No it's not. Where do people get this stuff?

People can speak whatever language they want. If they want to talk to English speaking folk then they can learn the language. If you want to speak to them, learn theirs.


*blinks twice*
Are you serious?

Think of a nation.. any nation.. as YOUR house.. You have a primary language you speak in your house right?
What if someone comes into your house.. You would expect them to speak the same language you do. you wouldnt want them speaking some other weird language you dont know in YOUR home..
It's rude. (to put it nicely)

It is the same in a nation also.
That nation has an infusracture in place so that it can run efefctivly and people can communicate so that things get done properly. That infastructure includes language. People NEED to communicate effectivly.. It is essential..
When people come into that nation and expect to speak a different language, all they do is break that infustracture already made and things dont run effectivly. When things dont run effectivly, it affects people in a negative way, and if the cycle continues it starst affecting the national ecconomy, which in turn efefcts everyone in that nation in a negative manner..

This situation applies to every nation also, not just United states of aemrica..
Go to Germania to live.. They expect you to learn German if you wish to be apart of their society..
Go to England.. Your expected to learn English to be apart of society.
Same with any other nation.. Whatever their MAIN language is.. you need to learn..

To go to another nation who speaks a different language to you, then refuse to learn that language but demand to be accepted into that societies infastructive is rude and selfish.




As for the illegal immigrant thing.. There is a reason its called Illegal... Because it is against the law.. Laws are made to either help thigns run properly, or protect people.. Break a law and yor putting a negative effect on that society..
In Australia, Illegal immigrants that are caught get put in a detention center, and they stay there till their imigration status is either changed to allow them in legally, or they are deported..
I FULLY agree with this.. I am all for multicultralism.. I love diversity..It is one of Gods great gifts to humankind.. But people should do it legally.

asparagus
09-05-2006, 06:33 AM
Someone who speaks three languages: trilingual.
Someone who speaks two languages: bilingual.




Someone who speaks one langauge: American.

timmyrotter
09-05-2006, 07:04 AM
why be forced to learn another language for the sake of an immigrant? that just gets me...

Alex you have to understand, America is one of the largest countries. with English as the most common language. its different than living in europe where yo can drive 50 miles and be in another culture, country, and language. therefore it doesnt make it as necessary to learn 1 even 2 other languages. id be interested to see how many people in China are bilingual, compared to americans. maybe australia too.

terrasin
09-05-2006, 10:26 AM
why be forced to learn another language for the sake of an immigrant? that just gets me...

Alex you have to understand, America is one of the largest countries. with English as the most common language. its different than living in europe where yo can drive 50 miles and be in another culture, country, and language. therefore it doesnt make it as necessary to learn 1 even 2 other languages. id be interested to see how many people in China are bilingual, compared to americans. maybe australia too.
Moreso, our country has more cultures in it than any country in the world. If we make this country bilingual by also making it a Spanish country, should we also have to learn the language of other cultures in this country like Chinese, Japanese, and Korean since there is also a high asian population here?

In other countries who have different national languages, they teach their younger generations english in schools because it has become the worldwide accepted language. There are more english speaking countries in the world than any other language. In our own, we have the choice of which secondary language we want to have in school, though very few ever learn to speak them fluently due to lack of interest.

Most young people in asian countries learn english as a second language. Australia, not to much, because like America, they already speak the worldwide accepted language. Just as I am sure that if Chinese was the international language, there would be less people in China actually learning a second language fluently.

CJ

Spiffles
09-05-2006, 01:32 PM
Someone who speaks one langauge: American.

If i had a dollar for how many Americans say things like that i'd be a millionare..

Thats completely ignorant of the world outside of America.

asparagus
09-06-2006, 07:10 PM
Huh? I don't understand what you are saying...

asparagus
09-06-2006, 07:13 PM
why be forced to learn another language for the sake of an immigrant? that just gets me...
Tim, no one is forcing anyone to learn a little español here. No one has said that at all in this forum (that I can think of).

Spiffles
09-06-2006, 07:32 PM
Huh? I don't understand what you are saying...

I'm saying, your comment is a load of crap. to be perfectly blunt but as nice as I can put it.


Someone who speaks one langauge: American.


I'm not American, yet I only speak one language..
To say everyone who only speaks one language is American is completely ignorant of everything outside of America.. There is a lot of nations where the people in that nation only speak their own native language and no other languages..

What your comment says is that everyone who speaks only one language is American..

asparagus
09-06-2006, 07:33 PM
why be forced to learn another language for the sake of an immigrant? that just gets me...
Tim, no one is forcing anyone to learn a little español here. No one has said that at all in this forum (that I can think of).

Immigrants, in time, learn english. If you are upset that they don't learn it faster, there are ways to deal with that. If you are upset that they bring their customs into America, there are ways to deal with that too. And if you are bothered that they are slow to change, there are ways that address that.

But the fact that they want to live in America...can you blame them!? I mean, I want to live in America too! There's nothing wrong with immigrants wanting to come here--the only way we can really solve the immigrant problem is by making our country undesireable...which I really don't want to do.

Any healthy country has an "immigrant problem." It means they're doing things right!

Now of course you might be quick to point out all the problems that immigrants bring. Some don't speak our language, some bring with them drugs and other criminal problems, and some drain our resources.

But the truth of the matter is that so do a lot of naturalized citizens. Naturalized citizens have all kinds of problems with drugs and violence, plus they're lazier than I ever thought possible, and to be honest, some of them I would prefer they not speak english so I don't have to listen to their selfish attitudes! :-)

I agree with you that there is a problem, and I agree that we need to do something about it. But while immigration is a problem, the immigrants aren't exactly cause--the companies that hire them are the problem.

If you deal with the "dealers," the opportunists disappear. Drug enforcement is a lot more effective when government targets the dealers instead of the addicted users. In the same way, it is companies that are dealing out jobs to illegal immigrants who just can't say no. I mean, the immigrants come here for money and jobs. But if we prevent companies from giving them jobs--if we just enforce laws against hiring illegal immigrants--we can make some major progress and take a real hit at the root of the problem.

What do you think? I think these sell-out, un-American businesses that will hire undocumented workers are a major part of the problem, and they really encourage illegal immigration.

asparagus
09-06-2006, 07:42 PM
I'm saying, your comment is a load of crap. to be perfectly blunt but as nice as I can put it.

I'm not American, yet I only speak one language..
To say everyone who only speaks one language is American is completely ignorant of everything outside of America.. There is a lot of nations where the people in that nation only speak their own native language and no other languages..

What your comment says is that everyone who speaks only one language is American..Well naturally my comment was a generalization. If you take a look at other first-world countries (most of western Europe, Canada, and western and southern Asia), I think you'd be hard pressed to statistics showing too many countries that were monolingual.

I mean someone already cited a statistic indicating that neally 1 in 5 Candians speak AT LEAST French and English. 1 out of 5! And that doesn't even count the Candians that speak English and some other language! In contrast, I don't think there's a single state in America where one of five Americans is bilingual.

Spiffles
09-06-2006, 08:29 PM
Well naturally my comment was a generalization. If you take a look at other first-world countries (most of western Europe, Canada, and western and southern Asia), I think you'd be hard pressed to statistics showing too many countries that were monolingual.

I mean someone already cited a statistic indicating that neally 1 in 5 Candians speak AT LEAST French and English. 1 out of 5! And that doesn't even count the Candians that speak English and some other language! In contrast, I don't think there's a single state in America where one of five Americans is bilingual.

My original comments to which you replied to where talking about the nations infrastructure in regards to language. Which you seemed to have ignored when you called me an American because I only speak one language..(except i'm not American thus proving your generalization wrong)
France, they speak French.. Germany, they speak German. England, they speak English. Spain they speak Spanish, Japan they speak Japanese.. Thats off the top of my head, so not really hard pressed.

Yes.. people in those nations may speak another language, but its their choice to speak another language not because they have to to be apart of their national society.
If for example (and it is purely hypothetical for an example) Australia had a massive cival war and it became dangerous to live here, and i decided to move to Germany for the rest of my life (Immigrate)(or heck you could probably argue political refugee in that example) I would be expected to learn German if i was to become a part of their society.

It's no different to people Immigrating to America. (or Australia) Both Australia and America are multicultural nations yes? (i hope you can agree on that) BUT there is only ONE official language and the whole infrastructure of that nation is based on that one language..
Therefore EVERYONE who wishes to live in that nation should HAVE to learn the official language of that nation. Which in the case of America (and Australia) is English.
(sure places like Canada in your example are different because they are UNIQUE and have a section of the nation that is officially Fench instead of English, but that isnt the norm for I would say Most nations)(and with that situaion, if i was to move to Qubec.. then I would learn French because that is the right thing to do.. the wrong thing to do is expect be apart of that society without learning French)

I'm sorry for all the rants there but frankly I object to being called an american because i only speak one language. (which is EXACTLY what you did) and you called all the French that only speak French Americans. You called all the Germans that only speak German Americans. You called all the Japanese that only speak Japense Americans.. etc etc..



Immigrants, in time, learn english.

They do? Must be different in America..
I have come accross a LOT of times through friends at school or other friends ive meet where their parents or grandparents have immigrated to Australia but REFUSED to learn English but yet expected to be provided public wealthfare/health/insurance and do nothing about intergrating into society.

I really hate this because it clogs up the system for the people that actually try to do things to improve themselves and be apart of the society they are in.

I dont mind people haveing the ability to speak other languages.. thats cool.I dont mind people coming here and still honouring their ancestors culture.. Thats cool.. But they SHOULD be expected to intergrate FULLY into the nation and society that they moved to.. That means learning the official language of that nation.

I'm all for multiculturalism, but not at the expense of National infastructure.

asparagus
09-07-2006, 05:05 AM
I have come accross a LOT of times through friends at school or other friends ive meet where their parents or grandparents have immigrated to Australia but REFUSED to learn English but yet expected to be provided public wealthfare/health/insurance and do nothing about intergrating into society.Wow. Honestly I've never heard of such an occurance. Things are pretty hard for first generation immigrants, so I have no idea why they'd refuse to learn english. This is the first I've heard of such a thing.

I can't imagine any immigrant to the US not wanting to learn english. I regularly see immigrants place adds and offer money for just conversation partners! They seem downright desperate to learn english!

You have friends who have friends who know their grandparents refused to learn english but then also know enough personal financial information to know that they also demanded welfare? I hope you understand that it sounds a little far-fetched to me. And as always, "friends" don't constitute a statistical sample.

asparagus
09-07-2006, 05:23 AM
Speaking of statistical samples, here's one study that explains why it is just so hard for immigrants to learn another language. Published by the University of Houston.

http://www.uh.edu/~achin/research/bleakley_chin_english.pdf

terrasin
09-07-2006, 11:45 AM
Wow. Honestly I've never heard of such an occurance. Things are pretty hard for first generation immigrants, so I have no idea why they'd refuse to learn english. This is the first I've heard of such a thing.

I can't imagine any immigrant to the US not wanting to learn english. I regularly see immigrants place adds and offer money for just conversation partners! They seem downright desperate to learn english!

You obviously never leave Michigan too often. In the south, the majority of people who immigrate anymore have no interest in learning languages. First generation families still don't want to learn (maybe they want to hold on to their heritage?). What is really sad is when these people refuse to teach their kids english. In Fresno, my wife would talk about how schools would do everything in 5 languages because kids didn't know how to speak english. This also leads to cultural division in the classroom that keeps the kids from learning english early on in their life and by senior year, while most have learned, some still can't speak it.

CJ

Spiffles
09-07-2006, 02:24 PM
You have friends who have friends who know their grandparents refused to learn english but then also know enough personal financial information to know that they also demanded welfare? I hope you understand that it sounds a little far-fetched to me. And as always, "friends" don't constitute a statistical sample.

um.. no.. NOT what i said..

I said i had friends at school or other friends (ie, ones not from school)whos parents or grandparents refused to learn English but where recieving welfare..


I did NOT say I had friends of friends...
So maybe read what i wrote properly and not misquote me..
*Apu from Simpsons voice* thank you, come again


Sorry, but i hate when people make up crap about and manpiluate something i said to suit themselves.


As for you thinking it's far fetched *shrugs* I could care less.. I know from my personal experiences that my comments are true. you can think my friends and my personal life are far fethed if you wish. What I KNOW as the truth doesnt require your beleif.

asparagus
09-07-2006, 05:37 PM
Spiffles,
Three reactions:
1) Their parents refused to learn the language, but the kids learned it? Their kids are your friends, right? So these parents who are sooooo anti-english let their kids learn it? Or do you talk to the kids in their native tongue? Please help me understand. I'm not trying to criticize what you are saying, just trying to understand.

2) Did you read the rest of my post?

3) What you hear from friends, as I have already said, is quite different from statistical samples. Personal experience (or stories of personal experience) is not as generalizable as a statistical survey.

Suppose four of five of my friends prefer Wendy's over McDonalds. Just because 80% of my friends prefer them does not mean that I should assume 80% of Americans (or Austrailians) prefer Wendy's. Now it's a very different scenario if a random sample of some 1,000+ people indicates that 80% of people prefer something. That's generalizable to a larger population, the former is not.

In the same way, just because your friends tell you their relatives refused to learn english does not mean that all immigrants refuse to learn english. All it tells you is that in this ONE instance, this ONE immigrant refused to learn english. It says nothing about the larger population.

Even if all 100 of your friends each have a hundred stories about an immigrant refusing to learn a language, these stories say more about you and your friends then they do about immigrants.

In summary:
statistical/scientific sample=generalizable to larger population
personal stories=stories

asparagus
09-07-2006, 05:43 PM
You obviously never leave Michigan too often.ouch. In the south, the majority of people who immigrate anymore have no interest in learning languages. First generation families still don't want to learn (maybe they want to hold on to their heritage?). What is really sad is when these people refuse to teach their kids english. Did you read the study I posted that explains this? In Fresno, my wife would talk about how schools would do everything in 5 languages because kids didn't know how to speak english. This also leads to cultural division in the classroom that keeps the kids from learning english early on in their life and by senior year, while most have learned, some still can't speak it.Wow, that is really sad. Out of curiosity, what are the five languages? Do you know why they picked them? Is Fresno really diverse?

Thanks,
Alex

terrasin
09-08-2006, 06:59 AM
ouch. Did you read the study I posted that explains this? Wow, that is really sad. Out of curiosity, what are the five languages? Do you know why they picked them? Is Fresno really diverse?

English, Spanish, Hmong, some middle eastern language, and 2 other Asian languages.

This pretty much makes up the whole of Southern California as well, not just the Fresno area. I know there is a very large population of Asian communities west of Anaheim.

CJ

Spiffles
09-09-2006, 03:05 AM
Spiffles,
Three reactions:
1) Their parents refused to learn the language, but the kids learned it? Their kids are your friends, right? So these parents who are sooooo anti-english let their kids learn it? Or do you talk to the kids in their native tongue? Please help me understand. I'm not trying to criticize what you are saying, just trying to understand.



The Children were born in Australia and went to school here so learnt English like any Australian..
What the issue is.. Is the parents who dotn want to learn English NEEDING to take their children to go shopping or pay the bills and to the wealthfare center to get their payments because they CANT interact within the society they CHOOSE to live in by themselves..

It is wrong againt that nation and frankly a burden on many other people. (the check out chick, the person at the wealthfare place, and person at the bank to pay the bills etc..)

It's wrong againt their own children..Their children will eventually grow up and what then.. should they ahve to live at home for the rest of their lives and not have their own life because the parents dont want to learn the official language... I perosnally think its wrong and selfish of the parents.




3) What you hear from friends, as I have already said, is quite different from statistical samples. Personal experience (or stories of personal experience) is not as generalizable as a statistical survey.

Suppose four of five of my friends prefer Wendy's over McDonalds. Just because 80% of my friends prefer them does not mean that I should assume 80% of Americans (or Austrailians) prefer Wendy's. Now it's a very different scenario if a random sample of some 1,000+ people indicates that 80% of people prefer something. That's generalizable to a larger population, the former is not.

In the same way, just because your friends tell you their relatives refused to learn english does not mean that all immigrants refuse to learn english. All it tells you is that in this ONE instance, this ONE immigrant refused to learn english. It says nothing about the larger population.


I ahave had more then one friend with this example.. I'll count between 10 and 12 different friends with this example (it is a rough 10 to 12 because i cant be stuffed counting everytihng of my life)
I have experienced it with others I have interacted with in society. (insert my check out chick example.. when i worked out in customer service i came accross a LOT of this sort of thing.)

What personal experience does it give in this case, mywself, but could be whoever, atctual experience in the REAL world. they see what is happening, experience, feel it..
statistics are not the real world. half the time they arent close to reality, and most of the time made up from iditos sitting in an office that have no clue what they are on about.



In summary:
statistical/scientific sample=generalizable to larger population
personal stories=stories

Ahh back to Generalizations again are we??

Someone who speaks one langauge: American.

Remeber this quote you made, which you then said was a generlization?

Asparigus wrote:
Well naturally my comment was a generalization.


Sorry mate, but i cant accept generlizations, because they dont work, and with this example arent not even remotly true.

What i'm going on is personal experience. Not just in one small community with oen or two people. Granted if it was just one instances in one small community with oen friend it would be different. But my personal experiences are numerious over 4 states within Australia and 6 diffrent communities (I moved around a lot due to my old man being in the defence force)
That is how i know it is NOT just one experience "out of the ordinary".
To confirm what i know as personal experiences, our Prime Minister made remarks similar to this only last week in relation to Immigrants refusing to intergrate themselves into the society in regards to learning English and other things that are essential to being a part of the Astralian society..

If its different in the United States then thats cool, but judging from other peoples comments such as CJ's it seems to be similar issues.


Did you read the rest of my post?

Sorry.. i'll try to be civil.. dont run lines like that at me after you misquoted me.. no.. it wasnt a mis quote.. you ADDED words that i didnt write to effectivly changed what I actually wrote.
(sorry, but if you hadnt noticed, i HATE when people manipulate other peoples words wrongly)

asparagus
09-10-2006, 07:46 PM
The Children were born in Australia and went to school here so learnt English like any Australian..
What the issue is.. Is the parents who dotn want to learn English NEEDING to take their children to go shopping or pay the bills and to the wealthfare center to get their payments because they CANT interact within the society they CHOOSE to live in by themselves..You originally said the parents refused to learn english. Now you explain this through assumptions? When you first made such a claim, it sounded like these friends said, "my parents refuse to learn english." Have they ever actually said that to you? I mean, how do you know that they refuse?

It is wrong againt that nation and frankly a burden on many other people.It's not just immigrants that burden society. It's obese people that run up unpaid hospital bills, smokers that can't pay for cancer treatment, the accused that can't afford lawyers, the mentally ill that require in-patient care, and a multitude of other people groups. I mean, we can't deport them all can we? I'm much more concerned about people's attitude in their heart than I am over how easy it is for them to pay a hospital bill.

It's wrong againt their own children..Their children will eventually grow up and what then.. should they ahve to live at home for the rest of their lives and not have their own life because the parents dont want to learn the official language... I perosnally think its wrong and selfish of the parents.Wrong of the parents to immigrate, or wrong of the parents to prevent their kids from learning the language?

I ahave had more then one friend with this example.. I'll count between 10 and 12 different friends with this example (it is a rough 10 to 12 because i cant be stuffed counting everytihng of my life)
I have experienced it with others I have interacted with in society. (insert my check out chick example.. when i worked out in customer service i came accross a LOT of this sort of thing.)Correlation does not equal causation. Do you know what that means? I'm not using a sarcastic tone here; it's just I feel we are like ships passing in the night.

What personal experience does it give in this case, mywself, but could be whoever, atctual experience in the REAL world. they see what is happening, experience, feel it..
statistics are not the real world. half the time they arent close to reality, and most of the time made up from iditos sitting in an office that have no clue what they are on about.Oh golly. We really are like ships passing in the night. I have several responses to this, but let me just try this one:

Personal experiences are generally subjective, inherently selective, and neither testable nor debateable.

For example, if you have five out of five friends that don't like Wendy's then would it be smart to assume (the scientific word is "generalize") that 100% of Austrailians don't like Wendy's? As Paul would say, "By no means!" :-) But let's say for a moment that you did assume that. If I then, in an argument, told you that 5 of 5 of my friends LOVED Wendy's, then we'd be at an impasse. There would be no way for one of us to convince the other one, based off our data (our friends, i.e. personal experience), that Wendy's was 100% popular or unpopular. We no nothing about the GENERAL population (this is what the scientific term "generalization" refers to, it is a statement about how data from a SAMPLE can be applied to a more GENERAL POPULATION); all we know is that you have 5 friends that hate Wendy's and I have 5 friends that love Wendy's. This probably says more about how we choose our friends than anything else.

But let's think about this impasse again. We might decide to go to a "third party." We might decide to RANDOMLY ask someone on the street. This is where we get the idea of a RANDOM SAMLE. It's not just something that "iditos sitting in an office" created, but instead is somewhat of a natural development that helps us understand the world around us.

Can you imagine if we approved drugs based off personal experience as opposed to statistical trials! Oye!

Ahh back to Generalizations again are we?? Remeber this quote you made, which you then said was a generlization? Sorry mate, but i cant accept generlizations, because they dont work, and with this example arent not even remotly true.We all make generalizations. They're a beautiful thing. I mean, without them, we can't even make basic decisions. Generalizability (also called applicability or external validity) is something we all do, everday, whether we understand the term or not.

[quote]What i'm going on is personal experience. Not just in one small community with oen or two people. Granted if it was just one instances in one small community with oen friend it would be different. But my personal experiences are numerious over 4 states within Australia and 6 diffrent communities (I moved around a lot due to my old man being in the defence force) That is how i know it is NOT just one experience "out of the ordinary".
To confirm what i know as personal experiences, our Prime Minister made remarks similar to this only last week...<snip>[quote]I love this argument! You are making an argument that your data, your sample, should be generalizable. You go on to say, "granted, if it was just one instance...", a phrase that indicates that you are also arguing that your sample is LARGE enough. You also argue that your sample is RANDOM enough when you say that your "personal experiences are numerous<,> over 4 states within Australia and 6 different communities."

Now, of course, 10, 12, 100, or even 1,000 friends can never constitute a statistical sample for as long as they are a non-random sample (in this case, friends). There's good reason too, don't you agree? If I work for Ford, and 50% of my friends work for Ford, should I assume 50% of America works for Ford? What if I've worked for Ford 30 years, lived in 10 different states, had 100 friends in those 30 years and still 50 of them worked for Ford. Would it still be wise of me to assume that then 50% of America works for Ford?

Hope this helps our discussion,
Alex

Spiffles
09-10-2006, 11:38 PM
You originally said the parents refused to learn english. Now you explain this through assumptions? When you first made such a claim, it sounded like these friends said, "my parents refuse to learn english." Have they ever actually said that to you? I mean, how do you know that they refuse?


They on each occasion my mates told me their parents have said, "I dont want to learn English". Ive seen it where ive gone shopping with them. My mate has to read all the labels so the parent knows what it is (except obvious things like say.. a banana) Had to do all the check out stuff, pay for everything and all translating back to the parent on each occassion.


It's not just immigrants that burden society. It's obese people that run up unpaid hospital bills, smokers that can't pay for cancer treatment, the accused that can't afford lawyers, the mentally ill that require in-patient care, and a multitude of other people groups. I mean, we can't deport them all can we? I'm much more concerned about people's attitude in their heart than I am over how easy it is for them to pay a hospital bill.


I agree.. You really dont want to get me started on fat people. Or smokers. I'll get all sorts of controversy on my thoughts on them, hehe

as for people not affording lawyers.. 1: they shouldnt break the law, which most of the time they are. Granted some people are wrongly accused, but there are public lawyers for people who cant afford a QC (Queens council) [insert American equivelant of a QC]. Yes, a QC will get a better result msot of the time.. That is just something that has gone on for centuries.. The rich always have it better.. cant be changed in any short amount of time and probably never will change.


For people who LEGALLY come to a nation.. They should learn that nations official language.. no if's or butts.. They should NOT have a choice.. learn it or leave..
If people come legally, that nation should have programs available to assist those people to learn the offcial language.. I dont think people coming to a nation should just be left to find out where and how to learn themselves.. But it SHOULD be a condition of their visa to learn the official language, and if they dont.. they then get deported.



Wrong of the parents to immigrate, or wrong of the parents to prevent their kids from learning the language?


You miss understand me there.. It is wrong of the parents to expect to have their children do everything for them because they refuse to learn the official language and therefore cant themselves function in society. In that situation, the children are no better then a slave.

I have, as stated a few times in this thread, got no problem at all with people coming into Australia.. I love diversity and multiculturalism. Just not at the expense of that nations infrastructure. (which language is a big part of that infastructure)


Oh golly. We really are like ships passing in the night. I have several responses to this, but let me just try this one:

Personal experiences are generally subjective, inherently selective, and neither testable nor debateable.

For example, if you have five out of five friends that don't like Wendy's then would it be smart to assume (the scientific word is "generalize") that 100% of Austrailians don't like Wendy's? As Paul would say, "By no means!" :-) But let's say for a moment that you did assume that. If I then, in an argument, told you that 5 of 5 of my friends LOVED Wendy's, then we'd be at an impasse. There would be no way for one of us to convince the other one, based off our data (our friends, i.e. personal experience), that Wendy's was 100% popular or unpopular. We no nothing about the GENERAL population (this is what the scientific term "generalization" refers to, it is a statement about how data from a SAMPLE can be applied to a more GENERAL POPULATION); all we know is that you have 5 friends that hate Wendy's and I have 5 friends that love Wendy's. This probably says more about how we choose our friends than anything else.


But let's think about this impasse again. We might decide to go to a "third party." We might decide to RANDOMLY ask someone on the street. This is where we get the idea of a RANDOM SAMLE. It's not just something that "iditos sitting in an office" created, but instead is somewhat of a natural development that helps us understand the world around us.



Can you imagine if we approved drugs based off personal experience as opposed to statistical trials! Oye!


Stastitics say smoking a bong is bad for everyone.. Personal experience from some people tell them somoking a bong helps them in their immense and overwhealming back and neck pain.

Staticstics from my expereince are taken from random things. If they are not, then they are "rigged" and not going to be any clsoe to reality.

example.. Say i went to America. Went to 10,000 people, gave them each a hot dog (the way you yankys like hot dogs) and a spoon of vegimite and asked each of those 10,000 to eat the hot dog and the spoon of vegemite, and then tell me which one they liked better.. I could just about guarantee it would be at least 90% hotdogs.
The majority of stastictics ive seen are "rigged" like this from my experience. (maybe not as obvious as my example)
Which is why i think of statistics like I do..
(All that bit i doing is letting you know what i think of statistics, i am not trying to change how you think of them)






I love this argument! You are making an argument that your data, your sample, should be generalizable. You go on to say, "granted, if it was just one instance...", a phrase that indicates that you are also arguing that your sample is LARGE enough. You also argue that your sample is RANDOM enough when you say that your "personal experiences are numerous<,> over 4 states within Australia and 6 different communities."


That argument was in reponse to your comment refering to one instance, whereas for me my comments are not based off one instance..It was to clarify that it was not one instance.. (i then probably rambled on afterwards, which i tend to do sometimes) they are based off many.. Yes if you get all technial it is still an assumption i'm basing that part of my argument. I'll try and explain better what i am going on about though, so bear with me.

Say I have one experience in one town.. Thats just one exepreince that may not mean anything outside of that town.. Then a couple years later, i move to a different state, (and obviously a different town).. I encounter the same type of experience only with different people.. I'll go, "oh thats weird, that happened were i last live" but think not much more and put it down to coincidendce... Say i again move a couple years later again to a differnet state and town (i did say my old man was in defence force so that did happen with the moving around a lot).. I again encounter the same type of expereince with yet another diferent person.. I think to myself. "this is getting weird, that it is the same experince"..
Low and behold, the defence force moves us off again somewhere else, back to the first state, but a different town (not many states in aussie land, so we live in the same ones a bit more often).. wam bam kazzam, the same epereince happens with eyt again a different person.. This now gives me a good impression this is actually the case around the nation and not just a one off case in one particular spot..
Then you hear the Prime Minister talk on national TV in an interview that there is this same problem..
After all that, you have to think it is more then just a one off occurance that you came accross..
So I come to the conclusion, the experiences i have seen are not just me..
I cant believe that it would be just me experiencing these sorts of things accross 3 states and 4 or 5 towns since i'm just a normal person who does normal things within the society i live in.


Now, of course, 10, 12, 100, or even 1,000 friends can never constitute a statistical sample for as long as they are a non-random sample (in this case, friends). There's good reason too, don't you agree? If I work for Ford, and 50% of my friends work for Ford, should I assume 50% of America works for Ford? What if I've worked for Ford 30 years, lived in 10 different states, had 100 friends in those 30 years and still 50 of them worked for Ford. Would it still be wise of me to assume that then 50% of America works for Ford?


Ive seen satsticis gone from a survey of 1000 people.. and then the morons who do these surveys try to tell us it is true.. Out of 20 million people (australias population roughly) 1000 isnt a greta deal, so i go off what i have experienced rather then some nob in an office..
The only statstics i came beleive truely are ones taken from the census which does every person in the nation.

To me statistics dont prove anything over literal experiences..Statisitcs are just numbers and words written by someone, more then half the time never been involved in that area anyways.
Statistics dont impact me or my experiences.. Encounters in the REAL world do impact me and what i base my arguments on..

Hope i have made myself more understandable. (either that or i have just confused you more, lol)


Anyway.. I doubt we are gonna agree on our stances, which is ok.. To sum up mine.. People coming into a nation should have to learn that nations official language.. I love diversity and mulitculturalism, but not at the expense of the nations infastructure, which includes language.

asparagus
09-11-2006, 02:36 PM
Enjoyed the discussion. I'll leave you with the last words (outside of this post).

: - )

Alex

skilletosis
09-14-2006, 06:20 AM
Oh good golly how did I miss this.

Ok I didn't even look at the stats. Michigan doesn't have the illegal immigration problem that CA, AZ, TX have. The southern border states are signifigantly more effected by it than Michigan. Just because you asparagus haven't personally been witness to it doesn't mean that it isn't a huge problem in many other areas. CA is paying out multiple millions more than many states due to the burden of illegal immigration. And that money comes from tax payers.

CJ and Spiffles both have the same experience in their geographical area that I experienced. Parents and grandparent not even trying to learn English. There is no excuse for living in this country for multiple years and still not understanding "how are you" and not being able to respond. Good grief I can say it and respond in spanish and I have never been to Mexico. I had multiple friends who had multiple family members that didn't learn and weren't trying to learn English.

I worked at the auto auction for 3 years and good old Nick a guy in his early 30's didn't speak one lick more of english in the 3 years time. If I needed him in the office I had to call him in spanish and have someone else tell him what was needed.

It is wrong for children to have to translate business matters to their parents; for the younger ones they are more likely to loose the meaning of the matter in translation.

skilletosis
09-14-2006, 06:28 AM
It's not just immigrants that burden society. It's obese people that run up unpaid hospital bills, smokers that can't pay for cancer treatment, the accused that can't afford lawyers, the mentally ill that require in-patient care, and a multitude of other people groups. I mean, we can't deport them all can we? I'm much more concerned about people's attitude in their heart than I am over how easy it is for them to pay a hospital bill.


Alex

We have programs in place that are there to help the burdens. But these programs are meant for "legal citizens" and "legal immigrants". If we were to relieve ourselves from the burden of "illegal immigration" there would be a much bigger budget to help with these burdens or to put towards education, prescription drugs, foster care, you name it. I could think of oodles of things our tax dollars could be better spent on than the burdens of illegal immigration.

somasoul
09-14-2006, 01:16 PM
I could think of oodles of things our tax dollars could be better spent on than the burdens of illegal immigration.

A simple "Yes" or "No" will do.

If the illegals are made legal will they pay taxes?

mk kid
09-14-2006, 02:37 PM
they should if they are citizens or if they are made citizens. heck i pay taxes, and i dont have the fallback of being illegal to keep me from getting in trouble. if i dont pay and i get caught i go to jail.

Grunge=Fun
09-14-2006, 07:15 PM
alright guys. heres the thing. if your an illegal immigrant you are unwanted. nobody wants you here if your not a citizen, not trying to sound mean but its the truth. its a federal offense and you are a criminal. even though it doesnt sound so bad, it is. its just as bad as any other crime and you should be deported :-D

skilletosis
09-15-2006, 07:24 AM
A simple "Yes" or "No" will do.

If the illegals are made legal will they pay taxes?

BIG FAT RED HERRING!!!

It is not as simple as a yes or no. We have given amnesty before. And now we are back to where we were before and then some. It's not just about them paying taxes and you know it. We've gone over this before. You aren't going to change your mind and I am not going to change mine. I can counter point everything you say and have done so in the past. You don't respect the laws of this country so there is no real discussion with you.

somasoul
09-15-2006, 11:37 AM
BIG FAT RED HERRING!!![quote]

Uh, no. It's not a red herring. Legalizing them would solve every and all ecominic problems.

[quote]You don't respect the laws of this country so there is no real discussion with you.

So since I don't respect the "law" I'm not "worth" talking to?

QUICKLY, FOLKS, FALL IN LINE! MARCH IN LINE, DON'T WANT ANY DISSENT! THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR US, LISTEN UP! ANY DETRACTORS WILL BE IGNORED!

skilletosis
09-15-2006, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=skilletosis;303906]BIG FAT RED HERRING!!![quote]

Uh, no. It's not a red herring. Legalizing them would solve every and all ecominic problems.



So since I don't respect the "law" I'm not "worth" talking to?

QUICKLY, FOLKS, FALL IN LINE! MARCH IN LINE, DON'T WANT ANY DISSENT! THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR US, LISTEN UP! ANY DETRACTORS WILL BE IGNORED!

It was only a few years ago that amnesty was given. The problems weren't solved then and they wouldn't be solved now if we legalized them again. You see this is circular which is the point. You say what you think. I refute with my opinions and back them with the facts. Niether changes their mind. Your not willing to respect the law so no it is not worth it for me to discuss it to you. To do so would just keep the circle going round and round and round. Good grief I think this is the third time in this thread I've pointed out what a failure amnesty in the 80's was, you see the circle.

somasoul
09-15-2006, 01:59 PM
Okay, let's start here:

What are the problems illegal immigrants bring to America?

Whay was the issue with Amnesty in the 80s? What problems continue from the amnesty that was brought 20 years ago?

skilletosis
09-17-2006, 08:50 AM
Ok this is a copy and paste of my reply to you the last time asked this question.

The answers to your question have been covered in posts 2, 16, 21, 58, 30, 36, 38, 40, 41, 45, 46, 56, 62, 66, 71, 77, 78, 80, 81, 87, 93, 96, 99, 103, 105, 106, 107, 110, 111, 112, 117, 122, 125, 127, 128, 138, 142, 143, 144, 157, 161, 167, and 171. Go back and read them.

Those are just my replies, CJ also has some good informational replies as well.

Shall we continue the circle?

somasoul
09-17-2006, 02:49 PM
Shall we continue the circle?


Absolutly. You've obviously continued the topic in my absence. Why is it, when I return, that the topic is suddenly off limits?

Spiffles
09-18-2006, 08:39 PM
To sort of continue from my discussions/comments earlier.. John Howard has publicly stated they are looking at changing laws so that anyone who wishes to become a citizen will NEED to do an English test first.. When I find an article that isnt one sided media garbage i'll link it (i'm looking sort of, when not doing Essays for Uni)..
It is certainly a problem in Australia if the leader is looking at changing the actual laws..

Not sure what the go is in the United States. Maybe they could adopted something similar so that everyone can communicate properly with everyone else?? A few people have said thnigs that give me the conclusion the issues are similar.. Maybe the fix is similar also. Maybe both our nations could work together and go" look, here is a problem (and it is a problem), what can we do to help each other out with fixing the problem"


I still support the detention centers in Australia that we send "illegal" aliens.. They are breaking the law so shouldnt be allowed free access (just like every other criminal isnt allowed to freely go anywhere they want) to everytihng like unemployment wealthfare and shouldnt be taking jobs off the people that come here legally, do the hard work to do it legally..

terrasin
09-18-2006, 10:28 PM
I still support the detention centers in Australia that we send "illegal" aliens.. They are breaking the law so shouldnt be allowed free access (just like every other criminal isnt allowed to freely go anywhere they want) to everytihng like unemployment wealthfare and shouldnt be taking jobs off the people that come here legally, do the hard work to do it legally..
I don't like the idea of detention centers. There are too many illegals in america wasting our tax dollars as it is. I'd rather put them in a catapult and launch them back to their homeland with a warning that if they are caught in the USA again illegally, they will be shot.

CJ

dawn of light
09-19-2006, 03:39 PM
I don't like the idea of detention centers. There are too many illegals in america wasting our tax dollars as it is. I'd rather put them in a catapult and launch them back to their homeland with a warning that if they are caught in the USA again illegally, they will be shot.

CJ

Shot?? I hope you're being sarcastic!

On another note does anyone know which would cost more, detention centres or deportation? Perhaps detention centres could cost less tax dollars if they were used to put the illegal aliens through the immigration process and re-leased back into society. Just a thought. (do they do that in Australia? I don't know how the detention centres work.)

terrasin
09-19-2006, 05:28 PM
Actually, I was being serious. People who come to the country illegally need to know that it will not be tollerated and we will not be lax in punishment. Unfortunately, they don't seem to mind spending time in our prisons.

It wouldn't cost near as much to deport them as it will to keep them here. The immigration process takes years for the USA. We're the hardest country to gain citizenship of, as it should be. So in the mean time, we would be spending tax money for years of prison time while they work on citizenship which they should have been doing before they came to the country? No thanks. Taxes are high enough as it is.

I'm also 100% against the idea of amnesty. It's like we've said in past threads, give them an inch, they want a mile. The same will just happen every decade and the population wil grow more and more as people come north from mexico expecting the same deal.

CJ

somasoul
09-20-2006, 05:27 PM
Does anyone here, like, own the country? Who invented these damned lines in the sand?

Catapults? Detention centers? Shot?

WOW! Um.......I see our worship of the police state is at an all time high. Let's shoot people for spitting on the ground! That's illegal! Let's build detention centers for people who swear in public! The end of our use of force upon others knows no bounds!

Why don't you meet some of these people face to face before you demand shooting them. In fact, if you want them shot then you can be the one to do it. Let it be on your own head. If you want them jailed, then you be the one to take them to your fanciful "detention center".

"Hey man, here's a cell for you. Let's lock you up like a dog. Sure you pose no threat to me but you don't speak English and that's annoying. Let's take away your liberties because I find you mildly irritating."

Golly, I think it's twisted how we just want to jail and sue and shoot everyone. State worship is despicable because it denies people the most basic of rights. No one gave you the land to own. No one gave it to us. It isn't "ours" or "yours". The borders are entirely man-made. I say it's time we give the flippin' planet back to the people who actually live on it, not these huge bureaucracies that create laws depending on which way the wind is blowing.

God bless people who come and go as they see fit. Because those people understand freedom. God bless people who avoid the tax man because he's the one who wants to cart you off to jail if you don't pay up. God bless the people who ignore the rules of a society which thinks jails are the solution to every problem we face.........because such a society who wishes to lock a human being up for these minor offenses is truely the worst offense possible.

Legalities mean nothing. I no more trust laws. I don't trust lawmakers like Cynthina McKinney or Barbara Mikulski or John McCain or any other bureaucrat. Forget them, forget their laws. I don't respect these people and I don't need my life run by them.

The rule of law is entirely a lie. The Constitution is the law of the land and it's ignored daily by people sworn to protect it. What a bunch of lying hypocrits. They break the law constantly but want to jail us. Everyday they make laws to send more of us to prison. That's what laws do, threaten people with death for a lack of compliance. Given, many good laws are on the books but that doesn't mean we need our entire mandated by the federal government.

Liberalism has finally spread it's wings over all we hold. Even self expressed conservatives have become state worshippers.

http://www.theflagpole.com/images/jesus%20holding%20flag.JPG

terrasin
09-21-2006, 12:34 PM
Yes, in a nice dream world, we could all live in Utopia. Where everyone is friendly, there is no money system because everything is free, no government because everyone is respectable and the world didn't need one, where everyone helped one another...

Now lets step out of lala land and take a look back at reality where there is hate, greed, murder, crime, governments, etc, etc, etc.

Lets say that we do as you just said, open up the world... how many more people would instantly move to the USA because of how much opportunity is here that they don't have in their own countries? Our population would jump by at least 3x what it already is in a matter of a couple years. A situation that would collapse an already unstable economy.

Lets look at things this way. Unemployment and taxes are major problems in the US already. While they are down in numbers from a few years ago, they are still major issues for Americans because so many people don't make enough income to support a family. So they depend on government cash, which we provide with taxes, to get them through till they can make enough to support their house. The problem is that too many people abuse this system. They choose to make just enough cash that they can stay on government programs and get the extra check in the mail each month because if they get another job, it still won't pay as much as they get now. Then there are the people who flat out don't work at all because they get free money in the mail each month, when they are fully capible of finding a job and working. Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?

Now how many people would take advantage of this system if we just opened up the borders? How much would taxes go up for honest, hard working Americans so that someone else can get a free ride? To a lot of these people, it would still be better living than the way they lived back home.

Currently, illegal mexicans who come to this country live in a small house with 10-15 others to keep the cost down. If the borders open up and immigration laws don't exist, how many would just bring their whole families and expect to be paid in proper wages so they could support their families? This would cause major price rises on produce items and other items which they work normally in, unemployment would skyrocket, taxes would at least double to help support these people... Especially in California where the minimum wage is being raised. It's already going to be an issue for small businesses who are trying to compete with larger markets. If they are taxed any further, all small businesses would be forced to close.

Now lets see this world with no government since you seem to be in an anarchist phase. Hate crimes would be up, theft would be up, insurance wouldn't be affordable if available at all. There would be no safe place for your family. Roads would fall apart because no one would pay to have them redone, there would be no medical coverage, the lower class would turn to crime because they would die without government support... it would turn into a country of chaos. So yes, you need laws and you need a government to keep the country running. ;)

This isn't even mentioning that anarchy is not acceptable in the eyes of God unless the law you are protesting is clearly against his.

CJ

somasoul
09-21-2006, 04:52 PM
Without government hate crimes would be up? People would just go mad and start killing other people? Insurance would go up? HA! Insurance would go down! Without government imposed regulations in place prices owuld drop.

In the meantime most immigrants that come here do work, they don't live on welfare. They want to pay taxes. They want to do their fair share. They are not looking for a handout. They want work, jobs, homes, a car isn't too far off.


This isn't even mentioning that anarchy is not acceptable in the eyes of God

The Israelites didn't have a king before Saul. They obeyed God. God warned them what kings would do.

I don't advocate anarchy across such a wide spread like America but I don't need to obey this country's laws anymore. They've lost their heads. The country is ruled by three cities:

New York-The money
Washington-The power
Hollywood-The voice

The only way Americans are remotely free is when they break the law. Enough with the lawyers and judges. Enough with the handouts. Enough with the lawmakers.

I side with peaceable people who want to work, make a good living and provide something to the rest of society. Those people are valuable. Illegal immigrants don't want to harm us, they want work, just like the rest of us. Good for them. Politicians send our men off to war, to kill or be killed. They make meaningless laws. They want to rule us and make our choices for us. They want to hamper my freedom, my God given rights that I was born with. We should ship them off to Mexico. Heck, I'll buy the plane tickets.

Spiffles
09-21-2006, 05:11 PM
I don't advocate anarchy across such a wide spread like America but I don't need to obey this country's laws anymore. They've lost their heads.


New York-The money
Washington-The power
Hollywood-The voice

The only way Americans are remotely free is when they break the law. Enough with the lawyers and judges. Enough with the handouts. Enough with the lawmakers.



If you go against the laws then you go against God. Your a brave man to go against God.. But I assure you, you wont win against God.

Romans 13:1-7
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.




As for the freedom thing... There can NEVER be true freedom.. True freedom means no nothing.. it means people can go into other peoples houses and take whatever they want..
It means people can do anything they want whenever they want.. There would be no privacy. EVERYTHING would be public.. No one would own anything. It would all be free right. freedom = no ownership.

Do you want people coming into your own house all the time whenever they want despite what you may want? Thats true freedom.

Laws are in place because it is a NECCESSARY thing so that people can live properly. Humans are not capable because of our sinful nature to live with true freedom.
To promote true freedom, is to promote people who kill, murder, steal. I'm sure you know what God thinks of people who kill murder, steal.


Does anyone here, like, own the country?

the LEGAL citizens own the country.


God bless people who avoid the tax man

God would NOT bless that.. That goes against his word. He would curse that.


God bless the people who ignore the rules

God would NOT bless that.. That goes against his word. He would curse that.


Laws PROTECT people. Laws let people live without fear, of murder, stealing etc..

somasoul
09-22-2006, 05:20 AM
If you go against the laws then you go against God. Your a brave man to go against God.. But I assure you, you wont win against God.

Romans 13:1-7
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Then the entire nation is opposed to God because the founders of this country disobeyed God when they fought their own country, England.




As for the freedom thing... There can NEVER be true freedom.. True freedom means no nothing.. it means people can go into other peoples houses and take whatever they want..

No it doesn't.

the LEGAL citizens own the country.

Actually.........you can only own what you can defend, you can only defend what you can possess. With the nation unwilling to defend its borders it cannot own them in any true sense. If the nation decided to defend its borders, to send back the lawbreakers......then it would possess, own and defend. As of now the borders are unowned because the owner is apparently unable to assert his ownership.


God would NOT bless that.. That goes against his word. He would curse that.

God wouldn't bless the rulebreakers? The founders of this nation broke the rules and they appeared to be blessed. David broke the rules when he ate the bread reserved for the temple preiests. In fact, his entire Kingship was opposed to the law because one of his ancestors was a Moabite, but God ignored the rules and declared David King. What about the rules of death which Jesus overcome? The guy/God/entity cheated death, one of the few rules we all get to obey. Jesus was a rule breaker and allowed sinners to touch him. The Bible is full of rule breakers, law breakers, sinners, revolutionists, prostitutes, soldiers, gentiles, disobedient sons and the like. God blesses them.

terrasin
09-22-2006, 11:41 AM
God would NOT bless that.. That goes against his word. He would curse that.
Scripture to back this up?

Your argument is not even valid. The Revolutionary War happened for freedom from political oppression.

CJ

dawn of light
09-22-2006, 11:59 AM
I think Somasoul was trying to quote Spiffles when he said that. Notice his rebuttal to that statement right underneath.

terrasin
09-22-2006, 01:29 PM
I know, I was replying to his rebuttal.

CJ

Spiffles
09-22-2006, 01:39 PM
just ebcause you ignored it the first time Somasoul cause it screws up your argument..
from the bible, about laws.

Romans 13:1-7
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

somasoul
09-22-2006, 05:19 PM
I think Somasoul was trying to quote Spiffles when he said that. Notice his rebuttal to that statement right underneath.

You're right. I forgot to put quotes around it. These words were originally said by Spiffles:

God would NOT bless that.. That goes against his word. He would curse that.

Romans 13:1-7
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

While typically I am the most conservative guy you could meet to interpret the Bible the above passage doesn't make a lick of sense. There's not one country on this planet right now that didn't disobey the previous governing authorities to become what it is. America, England, Germany, Italy, Russia, Autralia........all these countries ousted the previous "governing authorities". If God had truely blessed governing authorities then the original peoples of those lands would have never been overthrown and the new authorities would have never been formed.

Paul's passage doesn't make a lick of sense to me because it's evident that God has allowed people to overthrow every government on the face of the earth.

So while I like your interpretation, and can understand it, I can't help but think that it is entirely wrong.

Besides, I can't really see Jesus sticking Mexicans in jail for wanting to hang drywall or pick berries. Doesn't seem like his style.

One more question. If a family of illegal immigrants came to your church, attended for a while, made friends and came to Bible studies, do you think you'd be so quick to send 'em back off to Mexico if they got found out? Would you look at 'em and say: "Well, up to the catapault with you!"

I don't think so.

Spiffles
09-22-2006, 06:04 PM
There's not one country on this planet right now that didn't disobey the previous governing authorities to become what it is. America, England, Germany, Italy, Russia, Autralia........all these countries ousted the previous "governing authorities".


*blinks*

Australia VOTED to become indipendant.. We did NOT have any war or anarchy or anytihng else.. We had a CHOICE, and voted. Secondly, we are still a commonwealth country, and the ultimate rule still belongs to the queen, as Australia chooses it to be.

I dont claim to know all about the other countries. but your completely wrong about Australia...
Maybe you should get your facts straight first, lol



Paul's passage doesn't make a lick of sense to me because it's evident that God has allowed people to overthrow every government on the face of the earth.



(Sarcasim) What God say is just so completely wrong (/sarcasim)


My interpritation was just a direct quote from the bible, Gods word.
If you think it is wrong.. take it up with God..
Let me know how that goes... lol

[quote]
One more question. If a family of illegal immigrants came to your church, attended for a while, made friends and came to Bible studies, do you think you'd be so quick to send 'em back off to Mexico if they got found out? Would you look at 'em and say: "Well, up to the catapault with you!"

I don't think so.

If they were ILLEGAL, i wouldnt make friends with them.. I dont befriend criminals..

So dont presume that i wouldnt "think so" I dont think so Dont shove your crap in my mouth.
If they wrere here legally, or had amneisty, or were political or war refugess, that is completely different, as I have stated a number of times in this thread..

Why are you speaking to me about mexicans when I am in my posts speaking in general about ALL illegal alien??
My views are not just about mexicans coming illegally into America.. I'm sure other races are doing the same, and my views on the other races are just the same..

As with people coming illegally into Australia.. I could care less if they are white, black, yellow, or any race.. Illegal activites deserve the law to come down on them like any other criminal act.

Illegaal immigrants ARE a burden on society.. I fully support people who make the effort required to do it right.. Those that break the law I have no tolerance for, nor people who support those breaking the law and anarchism like you are promoting in this thread..