Hi all, I was wondering what your thoughts were on predestination. My school (I go to a chrisitian school) teaches predestination but my parents and church don't believe in it. Just curious on what your views are on this matter.
Thanx

oohhh. sticky topic this one is. ;) just make sure things stay friendly & cordial. despite what some people may say, you can have a nice Christ-like discussion on this topic.

i do have something to say on this, but i will post it once i have had a chance to look over my notes again.

Yeah, i hope it stays nice and calm. just trying to see what everyone has to say about it, with scriptural back up of course ;D
Don't worry, I'll keep it under control ;)

i might be severely uneducated on this topic but from what i know about it, i think it's utter horse sh*t

it assumes that God creates people, knowing that they have a ZERO percent chance of going to heaven. Why would he create someone with the full intent to send them to Hell?

I believe in predestination. But my view differs slightly from the normal.

God did predestine us to be with him. Simply cause that is why he created us. Then we messed up and then sin came. And we and God was seperate because of the sin in our beings.

Then Jesus came and again died for all this sin. Because of this, God could again enter and dwell with us. But there was still a problem.

It is God's destiny for all ppl to be with him. But we need to pay the price of letting our old man go.

The reason being that sin has a home in the old man. The old man cannot come into the Kingdom of God, cause wickedness cannot come into the Kingdom. And the root of sin dwells in the old man. It's origin dwells in the old man.

To destroy sin, the origin needs to be destroyed. So God already knows what to do. Every one who is willing and he will let be born again. In this way man can live again as he chooses from the new root that God will give him. So when someone believe, God put new Life in him. Something never seen before. A being with 2 roots in him. But God figured that out to. A being can only have 1 root. So something needed to be done with the old one.

But see the old one was really strong and it was under man's control and man sometimes didn't even know it was there, the reason being that man used this root to breath, and because of that, he couldn't see it, cause he was in it. This life was man's sinful life.

God had to kill this life, if he wanted man to come to him, but in so doing, he would have to kill man, cause killing man's life, would be killing man also. So God decided that he would share his life with man. So if man came willing God gave him a new life. Now God could take out the old life. And he did and because the new life, was the life of his son. He could put the old life into the new life of his Son. Then when the 2 got together, the old life was crucified and died.

Now everyone who comes to him, and calls upon his name is given the new life of His Son. And God chooses those who comes to him to share in a new Kingdom.

But parts of the old life is still broken off in man.(man held onto them) To destroy these, man must let his new life move over the old life, until the old life's dead wood is removed from him.

God chooses those who has faith. Many are called to believe, but only those who have faith are chosen.

it assumes that God creates people, knowing that they have a ZERO percent chance of going to heaven. Why would he create someone with the full intent to send them to Hell?


God created Adam and when he created Adam, we were already created, cause we are Adam's seed. God doesn't create babies everyday, he already created them in Adam. So he created everyone sinless, but Adam sinned and then sin entered him and his seed.

Ppl will be born cause they are already created. But God has given the seed of Adam a way back to him through Jesus Christ.

Before we start talking on this I think we need to define our terms. Different ppl have different ideas of what 'Predestination' means. when I hear it I think the beleif that God chose before any of us were born Who would turn to Him and who would not. We do not have Free Will we cannot choose to follow God or not, He chooses for us.

Personally I don't believe in it, at least not in the sense I described above.

God gave us the will to choose Him or turn against Him, He won't violate that. It is up to us to CHOOSe to give up our will to Him, hence the thy will be done. It's us choosing to have what God wants for us not us choosing what we want.

Here is what I believe on Predestination. I belive most people when they hear this say that God predestined you to go to Heaven or Hell. I don't believe this. Rather, even before the World began, the Word says that God knew us. Our names are written in the Lambs Book of Life. What quite a few people do not realize (including myself not so long ago) that EVERY name is written in this Book! Yes, saints and sinners! So we are born to be with Him. Unfortunately, our actions cause us to be blotted out of this Book, if we do not serve Him.

David said this about his enemies.

Psalm 69:28May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

And here is what the Jesus speaks on this.

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

So to be Predestined to be in Hell is opposite of what the scriptures declare. Hell was not even meant for mankind:

Matthew 25:41 Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

God is an all knowing and all powerful God. He understands the heart of man. Man chooses a path of wickedness or righteousness, He knows it before it happens. This is why Jesus allowed Judas into His group. He knew He would be betrayed by this man. Scriptures fortell it, but it had to be done. I don't believe God said, I'm going to create Judas to betray my Son and then send Judas into eternal damnation. But I do believe Jesus knew Judas' heart and said, this is the one who will betray me and chose him to be part of the twelve. This heart of Judas would have taken him down the road to eternity without God whether he was part of the 12 or not.

When I think of predestination I think not of God prechosen who will go to heaven and hell. The Bible says that he does not want anyone to parrish. I think of predestination on a smaller scale...like I was predestined to meet my boyfriend, who is one day going to be my husband. I was predestined to be RaeAnne's mom and to come into contact with certain people I have had the privilage of witnessing to or ministering to in some way.

Wouldn't that be more God's will than predestination?

Jerid I've never heard the idea that EVERYONE's name is in the book of Life. Fair enough I knew names could be blotted out but never thot of all names being in it. So if ur names blotted out how could it be written back in?

I go along with Jerid's idea of predestination. god didn't choose who does and does not goto heaven but rather he already knows us.

... the typical debate between Calvinism and Arminianism? We went over this in church one day, and I have to say it's areally hard question. It's easy to think of God's character and how He wouldn't create people He loved only to send them to hell because He didn't choose them.

However, believing completely in the "free will" doctrine takes something away from God: His sovereignty. It's almost like saying we save ourselves because WE make the choice, not God. And that's wrong.

I don't know if I can go back over everything we struggled through during our hour and a half of that Sunday morning, but I do remember the impression I came away with: it's a really hard question when you start really getting into it, and I think I fall somewhere in the middle of predestination vs. free will.

Why? Because I believe God has to prepare you for salvation. Saying that I all of a sudden decide "Hey, I'm going to go with God now," and automatically I'm saved makes me out to be the more important part and God to be some sort of machine like those ones at the supermarket we all used to love as kids: stick in your quarter, get out your prize.

Instead, God has the larger part in it -- I can't explain it (but who can explain God?), but He definitely has some part in your salvation; it isn't all you. Some would say He opens your heart to see Him and then you can either accept or reject Him... I can see that, although that also leads the way to the somewhat dangerous "God saw ahead in the future and chose those He knew would choose Him" (a cop-out compromise between the two views).

I can't believe completely in Calvinism (predestination): who can say, from what he or she has experienced of God's character, that He would create someone only to separate them from Him? But at the same time I can't believe completely in Arminianism (free will) because it comes dangerously close to taking away God's sovereignty, making Him a little less personal and a little more cold and machine-like.

It's like the debate between faith vs. works for me. Works can't save you, but neither does faith negate works: when you truly have faith and love God, I would hope that you see His will and want to do the things He wants you to, not continue in your old lifestyle.

I guess I just can't go to an extreme that completely ignores any one aspect of God's character. He is too much for us to comprehend, but I would rather try to understand as much as possible.

If I can find my notes from that Sunday I'll type them up (with Bible references too). It might be soon, might be later... blame school.

Jerid I've never heard the idea that EVERYONE's name is in the book of Life. Fair enough I knew names could be blotted out but never thot of all names being in it. So if ur names blotted out how could it be written back in?



This is what the Word says on the Book of Life:

Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living and the book of life and not be enrolled among the [uncompromisingly] righteous (those upright and in right standing with God).

Philippians 4:3 And I exhort you too, [my] genuine yokefellow, help these [two women to keep on cooperating], for they have toiled along with me in [the spreading of] the good news (the Gospel), as have Clement and the rest of my fellow workers whose names are in the Book of Life.

Revelation 3:5 Thus shall he who conquers (is victorious) be clad in white garments, and I will not erase or blot out his name from the Book of Life; I will acknowledge him [as Mine] and I will confess his name openly before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing that defiles or profanes or is unwashed shall ever enter it, nor anyone who commits abominations (unclean, detestable, morally repugnant things) or practices falsehood, but only those whose names are recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life.

After re-reading the scriptures, I may have mispoke myself on all names being in the Book. I'm not sure. It does appear that the name can be blotted out. This may mean that all the names were there to begin with. It could also mean that you could lose your salvation and be removed. This opens a can of worms on once saved always saved, but this is not my intention. Though why were David's enemies in the book? Why would David ask God to blot them out? If they are enemies of David then they are enemies of God so why would they be in the book to begin with.

There are a few scriptures referenced that indicate that they may never have been written in. But this could also mean that they were there but blotted out. But again
Revelation 13:8 states from the foundation of the world. So this is stumped me temporarily. I do know though, that what appears to be contradiction in the scripture ends up being the wording needs to be considered to understand it completely. One example would be when Jesus commanded the tree to wither at the roots, one gospel states immediately and the next says the next day. I was confused about this one and asked my leader what he thought about it. He said, if a tree withers within one day, it is immediately. So it all has to be taken in the context of the Word.

Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on the Book of Life?

... here we go. Sunday, Nov. 23, 2003:

FREE WILL AND PREDESTINATION

Questions to ask
- Is God sovereign (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sovereign)? Who chooses whom? Is God's calling effectual (when He calls someone, do they accept, or is His calling not 'good enough' to get someone to accept Him)?
- Is God good? Is God fair? Romans 3:5-8 (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sovereign)
- Is man utterly depraved? Is he able to save or fix himself? Can man choose God in and of himself?
- What ultimately makes a difference between those who believe and those who don't? Who or what determines it?

Sovereignty of God
Psalms 115:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Psalms+ 115%3A3); Ephesians 1:5,9,11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Ephesia ns+1%3A5%2C9%2C11); Matthew 16:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Matthew +16%3A18)

Goodness of God
Isaiah 5:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Isaiah+ 5%3A16); Psalms 119:68 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Psalms+ 119%3A68); Psalms 25:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Psalms+ 25%3A10); Deuteronomy 32:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deutero nomy+32%3A4); Daniel 9:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Daniel+ 9%3A14)

The doctrine of election (predestination)
- God chose Israel: Deuteronomy 7:6-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deutero nomy+7%3A6-9), 14:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deutero nomy+14%3A2)
- God chose certain individuals through time for His specific purpose: Luke 4:25-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Luke+4% 3A25-28); Romans 9:11-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 9%3A11-25), 11:5-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 11%3A5%2C6)
- God chose those who would believe: Ephesians 1:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Ephesia ns+1%3A4); 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=2+Thess alonians+2%3A13); 2 Timothy 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=2+Timot hy+1%3A9); 1 Peter 2:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=1+Peter +2%3A9-10); Romans 8:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 8%3A29)
- God's election in salvation: John 15:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=John+15 %3A16); John 6:39,44,65 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=John+6% 3A39%2C44%2C65); Acts 13:48 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Acts+13 %3A48); Acts 16:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Acts+16 %3A14); 1 Corinthians 1:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=1+Corin thians+1%3A30)

The paradox
- God's sovereignty, man's responsibility: John 6:37 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=John+6% 3A37); 1 Timothy 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=1+Timot hy+4%3A10); 1 Kings 8:58,61 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=1+Kings +8%3A58%2C61)

Election/predestination/providence
- Calvinism: God is sovereign; He determines
- Eternal security (you can't "lose" your salvation)

Free will
- Arminianism: Man is sovereign; he determines
- Eternal insecurity (you have the power to lose God's gift to you)

Other points
- "Grace is not coercion but transformation (regeneration) of the heart which enables the sinner to respond in faith and repentance to Christ."
- God's grace is an unmerited favor (it is not because of anything we have done that He offers it to us; we, in reality, do not deserve it at all)
- "Free and benevolent influence of a holy God operating sovereignty in the lives of undeserving sinners"
- Again: is man totally depraved? Romans 3:9-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 3%3A9-12); 8:7-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 8%3A7-8)
- Then why tell people about God? (ministry): Romans 10:14-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 10%3A14-17); 2 Timothy 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=2+Timot hy+2%3A10); Acts 18:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Acts+18 %3A9-11)
- "Election" does not necessarily mean fatalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fatalism) or determinism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=determinism).
- "Only Adam and Eve had absolute free will": Deuteronomy 30:11,19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Deuteronomy+30%3A11 %2C19&version=NIV); Joshua 24:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Joshua+ 24%3A15)
- "limited choice -- still a choice, but influenced"
- 2 Peter 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=2+Peter +3%3A9); 1 Timothy 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=1+Timot hy+2%3A4); John 6:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=John+6% 3A40); Romans 10:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 10%3A13)
- Who is "all referring to? Romans 9:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 9%3A6), Romans 11:14,25-26,29,32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 11%3A14%2C25-26%2C29%2C32)
- Man is without excuse (you can't say "God didn't choose me, so it's not my fault"): Romans 1:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 1%3A18-20), 2:1-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Romans+ 2%3A1-4)
- Men willfully reject Christ: John 5:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=John+5% 3A40); Matthew 23:37 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Matthew +23%3A37)

edit to add in... This is a high school service I go to, so it's a bit less formal than your typical sermon-from-the-pulpit: my youth pastor asks us questions, we ask him questions, and it's almost teaching and discussion at the same time. I learn really well that way... but it also means some of the things that were discussed that day might not have made it into my notes (if there's a mistake, it might just be because the real meaning was lost either first in translation from speaking to writing, then from writing to typing). The issue is really a lot more complicated than just the notes I gave too. But I couldn't capture it in writing.

those are good ria. :) akin to what i took my notes on. it was also a talk that was somewhat discuss/somewhat sermon. we were strongly encouraged to talk back & ask questions. i'll post my notes tomorrow or the day after. :)

This is one of those questions that is all in theroy and that people take way too far. No one really knows either way and when people discuss matters like this, and try to back up their theroy, they make themselves no better than someone like Darwin trying to prove that animals evolved.

For me, I don't know whether God has a predestined place for me or not. I do know that He knows everything, He knows our past, present, and future. To Him, there is no time in the understanding we have about it.

As I've said before, there are reasons God doesn't tell us things. There are reasons there are answers to questions we have about the Bible that just aren't answered. But it's because He knows best what we should know and not know. Whether or not Predestination exists or if it is just theroy, does it really matter.

You can't prove either way that it does or doesn't exist, so leave it at that and stop trying to let human understanding pursuade your mind set.

CJ

TerraSin, you're right. there really is not much practicality in debating this. that's why i hate to see people argue over this topic, as it so often ends up. as Deuteronomy 29.29 says "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed to us and to our children forever , that we may follow all the words of the law." on that note, here's excerpts from my notes when the youth pastor at my church talked to my college group about this.

it comes down to the followers of Jacobus Armenius & John Calvin. both sets of followers wrote 5 statements about their beliefs (after these guys where dead, of course). Calvinism's are more poular 'cause they got a cool acronym.

they are as follows:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

what each of these means is as follows:
(T) Ephesians 2.1 says, "As for you, you were dead in your trangressions and sins..." basically, we are born with the inability to step towards God. He is out of our reach.
(the next 4 are based off of Romans 9.9-25)
(U)God has predestined based soley on His will.
(L)because Jesus never fails, He must have only died for an elect few (otherwise He would have failed at saving those who go to hell).
(I)whoever God shows grace towards cannot reject Him.
(P)no one who is saved ever loses salvation.

basically, they say that God shows wrath to many (those who go to hell) so that to those who are saved, it is all the more beautiful. it's like displaying a diamond on black velvet. it looks all the more beautiful because of it's backdrop.

continued...

the Armenians, as i said before, also have 5 statements. altho, they aren't as cool 'cause they couldn't come up with a cool acronym. they state as follows:

Wounded Morality (we are not totally depraved. we are only wounded.)
Salvation Based on Will (it is our choice that saves us)
Christ Died for All (Jesus did not fail when He died on the cross because He did save us all, we just need to accept it)
Grace is Resistable (people can can do turn away from God)
Salvation Can Be Forfeited (you can lose your salvation if you aren't careful)

all those things they get from places like John 3.16, 1 Timothy 2.3-4 & 2 Peter 3.9.

continued...

there are things wrong with both of those ideas. if you want to make a Calvinist mad, ask him/her one of these questions. "Where did sin come from?" (since God has complete control over our relationship with Him, He must have made sin to come between us. we couldn't have strayed from Him on our own) or "If no one seeks after God unless you elected, then why are there so many false religions?"

the problem with Armenianism is that it takes away the Soveriegnty of God. it's all up to us instead of Him. bascially, they give the picture that God's upstairs twiddling His thumbs, hoping & praying that someone will turn to Him.

there are 3 more things i want to point out before i bring forth an alternative that my pastor suggested (& i agree with after looking it over). first is that Election & Predestination are Biblical (Romans 8.28-30 & Ephesians 1.11). second, God's reality transcends our own (can i get a "duh!")(look at the verse i opened with, Deut. 29.29). third, both Prestination & Free Will are tied to time. since God is outside of time, He can work both ways & we'd still see only one or the other.

if you've heard of Aristotle's Rule of the Golden Mean, you know that it says that extremes rarely ever work. he suggest that the best course is the one in the middle. with that in mind, here is what my pastor came up with (unless he got it from somewhere else). it uses the acronym that the Calvinists came up with.

Total Depravity (dead in sin, unable to save ourselves, but not unable to recognize/respond to truth)
Unconditional Election (it is unconditional from His point of view, but conditional to receivers point of view)
Limited Atonement (redemption available to everyone but only effective to those predestined)
Irresistable Grace (grace is irresistable in the sense that those who respond to it are overwhelmed by it)
Perseverance of the Saints (all who are saved will be be saved... based on Philippians 1.6)

that's all i got. other than this. for the "once saved, always saved" part, he said this. "walking with God is like a little child walking down the street with a Father. at times, we hold His hand & don't want to let go. other times, like walking across a busy intersection, He begins to hold our hand to protect us & to keep us safe."

this is really interesting. i don't remember for sure if it was here or back when ay boards were separate that i got into this same discussion. since then i did a 5 page research paper basically on calvinism vs. arminianism. so i learned a little bit. so here goes...
1. the most important thing of all of this relates to what terrasin said about there being no real reason for this. what i have to say is that the answer to the question (predestination or not?) determines whether or not there's life practice to come out of it. what i mean is that from the calvinist perspective, no life change is required on your part. either you believe that it doesn't matter if you sin, 'cause you're going to heaven anyway, or you believe that you're incapable of sinning because you're part of the elect. but if you walk away from this discussion as an arminian, you have to work hard (more importantly rely on God's help) to live a blameless life (and to repent when you mess up).
That being said, i would like to mention the scripture bensfavoritegirl did, 2Pet. 3:9 says the God is not slow. He is patient, willing that none should perish but THAT ALL WOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. i really have no other way of saying this. God says plainly that everyone has the opportunity to come to repentance.
next, i just have to wonder, if predestination exists, why should we try to live right? why not just sin and have fun? your eternal destination is secure anyway. and why evangelize? why go to church? why pray or read God's Word? Why do anything but live however you want to?
Lastly, I'd like to explain my personal belief about this. and i admit that i am closed-minded about this. i feel (and you may or may not believe me) that this is a revelation from God for my life. it's saved me many times and i don't think i can be swayed any other way. that's why i won't try hard after this post to convince anyone of my view. I believe that there are three being who have a plan for your life. God, satan, and yourself. (well, i guess there's your friends, parents, etc. but that's irrelevant). God's plan for everyone is not only that they come to salvation, but He also has a specific life He wants you to live. He has your career, your spouse, your church, and probably your children already planned out. Now also satan has a plan John 10:10 says the thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy. That's it. satan wants you dead. whatever he can do to keep you from living the life God wants for you, he's happy with. Then, of course, you have a plan for your life. (btw, many aspects of what you desire for your life are placed there by God) So here's the question at hand here: who chooses what plan your life follows? If it were God, no one would ever go to hell. If it were satan, none would ever go to heaven. it has to be you then. (forgive me, i have to continue to the normal point of this 'plans' thing, which is almost irrelevant to this topic) the point is this: God has great things planned for your life, but they're not chosen for you. you have to let Jesus drive. Rather than you choosing your life, you submit to search always for God's will in your life.
thank you. come again.

I'm sorry but I don't see how People choosing to accept God's gift of salvation or not removes his sovereignty. Whether they accept or not, God is still God, he will still reign, he is still just and loving. So how does some1 choosing to go against Him remove any of that?

Following Unshakeables pattern of beliefs I'll put mine

1. Total Depravity We are born as sinners, born spiritually dead. We Inherited death from Adam.

2. In between. God calls those he wants to follow Him, it is up to us to accept or refuse that calling. Someone cannot turn to God without Him calling them.

3. Jesus died to cleanse the sins of EVERYONE! Not a select few but every man, woman and child on the planet, no excpetions. Someone refusing salvation doesn't mean Jesus failed, He still succeeded in conquering death and beating sin.

4. Grace is resistable. Whether its for pride or saving face ppl can and do resist God. A lot will give in to Him as some point but not all do.

5. Salvation can be lost - But I'm not talking make a sin and u lose it stuff. My own opinion is that only someone who knows god REALLY close and then willingly and voluntarily turns away can lose it.

Hebrews 6: 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, F26 to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

^ that isnt ur every day believer. But someone really strong in faith.

the whole why evangelise is one reason I have for disbelieving predestination. If God has already chosen who will turn to Him why bother rpeaching the Gospel. God will save them anyway.

I'm sorry but I don't see how People choosing to accept God's gift of salvation or not removes his sovereignty. Whether they accept or not, God is still God, he will still reign, he is still just and loving. So how does some1 choosing to go against Him remove any of that?


the reason it takes away God's sovereignty is that by believing completely in free will & no predestination we don't give God any lee-way to work. sure, if you say Free Will & Predestination work together, God still reigns over all. but by completely basing your salvation on Free Will means that God had no part in it. like I said before, it's like His only job is to take care of those who are Christians now & to wait & hope & pray that we can convince people to turn to God.

a friend of mine says this all the time. "We talk to a person's ears, but God talks to their heart." Free Will only (no predestination involved) means God cannot talk to their heart. the choice is entirely yours. that is what i have trouble with.

My whole view point on Predestination is that God KNOWS who will be saved and who won't. He is omnipotent and omniscient. He, regardless of what He knows, has given us a choice (to choose either redemption or death) so that we are not merely puppets but a true creation, completely ourselves yet incomplete without Him. He desires that we all come to know Him, yet He knows that many will not. That is why it is our job as Christians to help lead people to Christ. If the whole Predestination thing is true, why even bother witnessing? Would it make a difference??? Those are just my personal beliefs. All I know is that I am sure in my salvation and I wish that surety on everyone on this message board.

1. Total Depravity We are born as sinners, born spiritually dead. We Inherited death from Adam.


You are still on this kick that God isn't with us until we are saved when thats the exact opposite of what is taught in the Bible. The only place where you are seperated from the Spirit is in Hell. That's all Hell is, seperation from the Holy Spirit. But throughout our lived, God is there in the shadows of both the saved and the secular. He continues to work miracles in peoples lives who don't believe in him. It's all over the NT.

CJ

completely basing your salvation on Free Will means that God had no part in it.

the choice is entirely yours.

Ah I c wot u mean. That I agree with. God plays the ibggest part in salvation, sending his son to die, raising Him from the dead, offering us grace when we deserve justice, calling us to follow Him and accepting us when we do. A Christianity without that isn't Christianity. We DO have to choose to follow Him, he won't force us to. God offers the salvation, we accept it or reject it. To me that's where the free will is.


TerraSin what do you mean when you read "God isn't with us" I think this isn't a clash of beliefs but a clash of definitions.

When I read God isnt with us I read "We are sinners, we are not saved, we are not God's children, we are against God". If u mean He's with us as in physically with us, you're right. God is everywhere. If you mean He's calling and drawing ppl to Him I'd say you're right as well...

Free will doesn't mean that God has no part in salvation. rather, we have the choice to accept his gift of grace or not, he does the rest. Our only part in salvation is accepting it, you cannot have it until you accept it.

yes, terrasin, i am also confused.

the only place we can be completely separate from God is Hell, but that doesn't mean He's with sinners right now. he can't be in the presence of sin. (which is also the reason he can't be in hell). someone who has not accepted God can only hear God's voice calling them to salvation. no other direction from God. this is proven when the bible says that christianity is foolishness to the unsaved (not in those words obviously). anyway, i made my point.

This is the kind of stuff I am talking about. People saying that God isn't with sinners, that his light isn't on them, helping them too. It's this kind of trash that is killing the church. What is the use of praying for people who aren't saved then?

"Oh Lord, please heal my unsaved sister who was in a car accident last week."

"Oh, sorry, I can't heal her, she doesn't know me."

That seems a bit silly for an all loving God. People need to seriousely open their eyes or they will just add to the death of faith. God is with us, always. Saved, unsaved, He is there. Imagine what life would be, completely void from Christ. That is a life without hope at all. They show movies on TV this time of year where Santa gets in a pickle, and they talk about how the world would be like without him. Think of a world without God behind you. Think of all the things he did for you before you were even saved. I know I would be dead right now in a literal sense if he wouldn't have been there when I wasn't saved.

CJ

Remember that there are also two other options here-

the answer could be both a mixture of 'predestination' and 'free will'...or it could be NIETHER.

Remember that there are also two other options here-

the answer could be both a mixture of 'predestination' and 'free will'...or it could be NIETHER.

but if it's neither, then why would both be mentioned in the Bible? (yes, i know the words "free will" are never mentioned, but the idea is there)

"Oh Lord, please heal my unsaved sister who was in a car accident last week."



Now I get what you mean Terrasin. I understand your point now and I was right. It was a matter of different definitions.
I meant when I said God isn't with the unsaved as "The Holy Spirit does not dwell in their hearts and minds" the way He does with Christians. But I never meant that He isn't near them or beside them or affecting their life to guide them toward Him or healing them when they are prayed for.


God is actually in hell, if He wasn't then Hes not omnipresent and therefore doesn't exist everywhere, denying an important part of his character.

:P

God is actually in hell, if He wasn't then Hes not omnipresent and therefore doesn't exist everywhere, denying an important part of his character.


Not to go too far from the subject, but I don't believe this at all. What hell ultimately is, is the departure of the presence of God. Without God's presence, there is death. This is what hell is. If sin cannot be in the presence of a Holy God, then hell is where sin is cast. Yes He is omnipresent, but this does not mean He has to be in hell.

People preach hell fire and brimstone, when in actuality, that is nothing compared to the lack of the presence of God. The presence of God leaving Christ on the cross was what I believe ultimately broke Jesus' heart (not to mention those He chose, crucified Him), leading to His early death. The soldiers went to break the legs of the men on the crosses so that they would sufficate before sundown. Jesus was already dead, they were surprised at this so they stuck Him in the side and blood and water flowed. This scientifically says that His heart actually burst.

So to say that God is in hell, I can't agree with that statement. In order to tie it into the subject, Jesus was predestined to die on the cross and be ressurected, no matter what form of predestination anyone believes!

Yes He is omnipresent, but this does not mean He has to be in hell.


Well actually yes it does. For Him to exist everywhere he does actually have to exist everywhere! His concentrated full presence may not be in hell but He is there.

With your definition, then God will be in the Lake of Fire as well? I don't believe this either.

Not in the lake of fire as in He's there burning. But is he there, yes. Unless he does exist absolutely EVERYWHERE he is not Omnipresent.

So God lives in hell huh?

Wow....my pastor is going to have fun answering this one next time I see him.

...everywhere

...So God is in my toilet right now?

I understand what you mean by omnipresent. I just can't believe and won't believe unless God shows me directly that He'll be there or in hell for that matter.

We are speaking of an eternal God that was here before anything we see. We cannot place a tag on Him and say He will live by our understanding.

The word omnipresent does not even exist in the bible, so for us to paint him as our understanding of the word should not be so. Darkness and light cannot exist in the same place. This is why there has to be a hell and a lake of fire, so that no one can be in the presence of God who has not accepted Jesus Christ. God in Hell would contradict this.

If He is truly God, can't He create a place where even He cannot go?

Omnipresence isn't a tag. It's part of his character. He exists everywhere. He is everywhere simultaneously. For Him to NOT be everywhere means there are things going on in the places He is not that He doesn't know. That denies another part of His character - Omniscience the knowledge of everything. In order for Him to know everything Hem ust be everywhere simultaneously. It is something He can do that Satan cannot.

...So God is in my toilet right now?
Yes God is in your toilet right now, he knows what your doing in there too. And how bad it smells...

The word omnipresent does not even exist in the bible

neither does the word 'Bible' so following ur statement the bible is unbiblical. The word trinity isn't mentioned in the bible either. The fact that a word isn't mentioned doesn't mean it can't be implied. God knows everything every person has every done, said and thought.

Therefore he must be with every person all through history all the time. He also know what Satan and his demons are doing too AND what all the angels are doing
to do this He must be everywhere.

You still did not answer the question of can't He create a place where even He cannot go? The reason for this is that you can't answer it. No one can. If you say He cannot create a place where even He can't go, then you are saying God is limited in His power of creation. If you say He can create a place where even He can't go, then it goes against what you are saying about Him being in Hell.

The fact remains, this is something we will not and cannot absolutely know until we are with Him. So to argue beyond a shadow of a doubt is insane. I believe He cannot because darkness and light cannot be in the same place at the same time. You argue yes, because you hear the word omnipresent and give your term for it.

Omnipresent is a word that we came up with to describe God being everywhere. Just as the bible and Trinity. Our understanding of the word bible and Trinity is much more defined than omnipresent.

Actually I didnt even notice the question, sorry.
My response would be this

a line goes infinitely in 2 ways
a ray goes infinitely in one way

Tell me which is bigger and Ill answer that question.

Aren't you assuming that hell is a bad place? Sure its a lake of fire that ppl get tortured for eternity but is it actually a BAD place. Sin cannot exist with God. But is hell sinful?

I'm just walking down the theological highway with this one, tis an idea I just had, is hell evil? Hell itself is a place, it is neither good nor evil. It simply is. so God being in hell is not an impossible idea. God being in sin is impossible.

That's a cop out.

Hell is a place where evil resides. This makes hell tainted and yes it becomes a bad place. If you were asked what's the worst place you could imagine, hell would be the answer. This makes hell (and the lake of fire) ultimately the worst place to be. Again, not so much because of the torment, more because God is not there. This is what true death is, the lack of the presence of God.

Your whats itchy?

Me not answering your question about the line and the ray, in no way reflects my belief on God being in Hell. You answering my question on God creating a place where even He cannot go, does and can change your point of view, depending on the way you answer.

??? riiiite. Yeah.... ok....
To me ur question of God creating somewhere He cant go is the same as asking can God create a rock so big He can't lift it. It's a dumb question.

The point i'm trying to make is this:

If God knows everything (which he does) he must be everywhere in order to see it! Rite? So he even must be in hell.
Hell itself I see as a place. no more, no less. Hell itself is not sinful or evil (God cannot create evil) so hell must actually be good! Those who are thrown into it are not good. Anymore than ppl thrown into prison are good.

Whats the difference between God being in hell with all the sinners and Him being on earth with all the sinners?

It's confusing. If God cannot enter hell- if hell is eternal seperation from God- then where did Jesus take the sin of the world when He died?
God turned His back on Him(self) in order to do so....

which leads me to believe this- Jesus entered hell on that one occasion, during the three days of His death. But this still can mean that Hell is eternal seperation from God, because Jesus was forsaken by God. But the miracle is...Jesus IS God, and He conquered death. That's how God can be in hell (if the right circumstances are met, which they were), while hell can still be eternal seperation from God.
That's basically how God can die and pay the price for us little earthlings while still remain a living God.

Hell is exactly this: The complete and total seperation from the Holy Spirit... plain and simple. God is not in Hell.

CJ

Can God exist in Hell? This had me super confused...so I decided to see what I can find on the subject.

Short Summary:
If God is omnipresent he can go to hell, but if he's all good, he can't stand evil. Evil resides in hell. So God can't go to Hell....but he's omnipresent at the same time. Hmmm. . . we have ourselves a little bit of a problem.

God created Hell for the fallen angels to reside, not for humans. Human failure tainted the world and thus, sin was created, evil was created.

Is Hell complete seperation from God? The American Heritage Dictionary has this to say: HELL
1a. often Hell The abode of condemned souls and devils in some religions; the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan. b. A state of separation from God; exclusion from God's presence
http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/H0133200.html

According to this God is not in Hell. Can he not go there or does he choose to not go there? If God can't go to Hell then he isn't all-powerful. What's the deal?

I found this interesting

If God is everywhere, can God be in hell? Yes...hell is not the absence of any presence of God since it's a continuing manifestation of God's love...In one sense, hell is the absence of God's special manifest presence... God's wrath is a manifestation of his love....

churches.wcg.org/philadelphia-pa/systheo2.html

Okay, this seems to have me almost more confused than I was before but it sounds like this guy thinks that God exists in Hell, he just doesn't let his love show though. Only his wrath is in Hell.

Someone interpret this better please. . . I have a headache.

There is a difference between hell and the lake of fire.
Hell being existant 'now' and being closer to hades. (unrighteous Ppl who die are kept here. The demons dwell here- even though they themselves don't like it (though they are still thoroughly evil))

Luk 8
31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.

And then there's the lake of fire

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Re 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

(At this point there is only 3 in the lake ??? )

As I understand: Hell is like hades, where death reigns (oops did reign - but it's still not a nice place) and the lake of fire is at the end of time, and everything that is 'not from God' will be thrown into the lake of fire. That includes hell ( and hades[death] )

Can God be there? I think he can. I will not say that God can be in a place or not. If he decides, that he can't be there he can't. He is almighty, but I guess then he can be everywhere. I say can because God may choose to not be somewhere, because all things are possible for him. That make sense? But God is everywhere and according to David, to God night is like daylight. He knows all things.

By theinvaded
which leads me to believe this- Jesus entered hell on that one occasion, during the three days of His death. But this still can mean that Hell is eternal seperation from God, because Jesus was forsaken by God.

Re 1:18
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Guess Jesus can go in there any time he wants. He's got the keys to the place.

Eph 4
9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

All things are pretty clear. All things are filled by him. That must include everything.

Good job Xon, problem solved....


...NEXT!

Ps 22:1
To the Chief Musician. Set to 'The Deer of the Dawn.' A Psalm of David. My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning?

Ps 38:21
Do not forsake me, O Lord; O my God, be not far from me!

Ps 71:12
O God, do not be far from me; O my God, make haste to help me!

To be forsaken or far from God is the same thing (Ps 38.21). To be far from God is to be without his help/intervention (Ps71.12) To be far from God means your prayers aren't heard by God. (Ps22.1)

To be far from God doesn't mean that God isn't present. It means that you are cut off from him. There is no communication. This is what Jesus went through. He said the above quoted words so that we never have to say them. This is His words, not ours. He took what should have been ours.

Mat 27
45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" 47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!"

Even today ppl don't understand what those words mean, what it really means that Jesus said it in our place. That was our words, we should've said them, but he took it on himself.


Now here is the blessed hope, our heritage in Jesus Christ.

Ps 65:4
Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple. 5 By awesome deeds in righteousness You will answer us, O God of our salvation, You who are the confidence of all the ends of the earth, And of the far-off seas;

Predestined or not, it is all mercy, which we don't deserve.

Where in the bible does it say that hell or the lake of fire is eternal separation from God? I had tohught that that was just something man came up with to describe hell / lake of fire.

while all this is interesting, what does it have to do with predestination? ???

(just trying to keep things on track. remember, you can always start a new topic too. ;))

what does it have to do with predestination? ???


??? I have absolutely no idea.... LOL ???
Cant even remember how we got on this topic.

??? Me neither

One stupid topic always leads to another. Thats how. :/

CJ

i have nothing additional to add at this moment, i just wanted to say i hate it when i miss the middle of a conversation/debate/on-the-verge-of-argument because i'm too busy to get online for a few days...i'll try harder i guess.

while all this is interesting, what does it have to do with predestination? ???

(just trying to keep things on track. remember, you can always start a new topic too. ;))


As a moderator, shouldn't you take the topic and post it in a new subject heading, or should we? The topic, although it is not in relation to how you are saved, is still an interesting one. There are many views on this and everyone just stopped discussing it once you made this (valid) point.

As a moderator, shouldn't you take the topic and post it in a new subject heading, or should we? The topic, although it is not in relation to how you are saved, is still an interesting one. There are many views on this and everyone just stopped discussing it once you made this (valid) point.


i agree. it was an interesting topic (as i stated above). but even tho i am a moderator, i still leave that sort of thing to you guys. remember, the mods aren't here to be all-controlling, we just make sure you guys are all keeping on track & things are organized & nobody starts a fight. i let you guys do all the work.

so, short answer. go ahead & start it. :)

God chooses who will be saved


I. This is evident from the section above, because God must first turn our hearts to Himself before we will believe.


II. God's choice is not based upon His foreknowledge of our good works.

A. Because no one is good or does good, as we saw earlier (for example, Romans 3:10-13).

B. Scripture declares this.

2 Timothy 1:9
Romans 9:11-13
C. Thus, good works are the result of predestination, not the basis of it.

See Ephesians 2:10

III. God's choice is not based upon His foreknowledge of who will believe

A. Because we would never believe unless He first chose us and caused us to believe, as we saw.

B. This is evident from the many verses that call faith and repentance gifts from God.

Philippians 1:29
John 6:65
2 Timothy 2:25.
C. God can bring to faith anyone He wants

Isaiah 55:11
Job 42:2
Psalm 115:3; 135:5
Genesis 18:14
D. Scripture declares our faith to be a result of our election, not the cause of it.

Acts 13:48
Why did these people believe?
John 10:26
Why did these people not believe?
John 15:16
Who chose whom?

IV. God's choice of whom He will save is based only upon Himself and His holy purposes. It is based upon nothing in the individual.

A. The verses above cited show this.

B. Romans 9:11-24. Pay special attention to verses 11, 16, and 18.

Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau? (v. 11)
Who does salvation ultimately depend on? (v. 16) Who does it not depend on?
Why did God raise up Pharaoh (v. 17).
Does God have the right to choose some to be saved and leave others in their sins and let them perish? (v. 21).
How does Paul feel if we deny God this right? (vv. 19-20)
How do you see predestination in verse 21?
C. Ephesians 1:4-6, 11

What does it say that God's choice is based upon?
D. 2 Timothy 1:9

The apostle Paul did not introduce the doctrine of election to stir up controversy or speculation. He did so to assure us that our salvation doesn't rest on the unsteady foundation of our weak and sometimes faltering faith. lt. has its basis in God. It is all rooted in His plan that reaches back before the creation of the world, It reaches forward into future eternity when in Christ we will be perfectly holy and without blemish, in fact as well as in standing.

God chose us in Christ both for present salvation and for future perfection. We need not go through life afraid that sometime or somehow we will in a moment of weakness lose our salvation. lt. doesn't rest on our own fickle faith. It stands firmly on God, His plan, and His work.


Our Response

Knowing that God chose us in Christ should reassure us when we doubt God's love for us.
Knowing that God chose us in Christ should cause us to be overwhelmed with gratitude and a desire to be more committed to serve Him.
Knowing that God chose us in Christ to be "holy and without blemish" should cause us to make it our goal to live that way.
God's Response
Surely God is pleased when our attitudes and actions show that we see ourselves as chosen in Christ. On the other hand, He must be grieved when we refuse to accept His view of us, when we are ungrateful, and when we have little concern about living up to our high and privileged position as His chosen ones. Our position in Christ is secure. Although the joy that comes from an awareness of this position can be withheld, our failures will not change our status as a chosen one


The natural man is totally depraved and dead in sin and is incapable of "making a decision" for Christ. Man does indeed need to be rengenerated first, but I don't agree that I have to throw a lot of scripture out to prove this. The truth is that everything you quote from scripture that shows that man must "choose" or "repent" or "believe" is indeed a command to everyone everywhere. But, here again is the tension. I read in numerous places where God clearly chooses Whom He will save, but then we read where man is responsible. How can this be? I humbly proclaim "I don't know".

The natural man is incapable of "making a decision" for Christ


God giving ALL fallen mankind the ability to choose Him is not Scriptural!
I say that the concept of God giving ALL fallen and sinful mankind the ability to choose Him is just not found in scripture. We find the exact opposite: The apostle Paul echoed the old testament when he said that "No one seeks after God, no, NOT ONE" He goes on to depict a miserable situation for the unsaved.

It seems that you are trying to say that since man is dead in his sins, he cannot even choose to follow Christ. That is bad theology, but don't take my word for it, take God's word:

(Deuteronomy 30:19-20 NIV) [19] This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live [20] and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Notice in both of these passages the people are told to make a choice to either follow God or not. If you are right, then these passages should be cut out of the Bible because they are meaningless. But these are not the only ones.

(Genesis 4:7 NIV) If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.

I would only like to ask you this: to WHOM is this passage written? Actually, I could ask you same question in reference to both quotes: to whom is the Joshua verse written? Let's go a step further....to whom is the entire Old Testament addressed to?

The verses appear to be God giving fallen mankind the opportunity to choose are really only God commanding His chosen people to choose His way. Having said that I fully agree that man can choose God... but only after he has been regenerated. In John chapter 3 Jesus said that a man must be born again to see the kingdom of God. He doesn't choose FIRST then become born again. We bring man up to God's level when we say that man is the final deciding factor in his salvation. By saying that man ultimately decides his fate is to say that HE (man) is sovereign, not God. I have a problem with that because it steals Gods glory.

Man must be regenerated FIRST before he can choose Christ.

You say that those two passages in the Old Testament where the Israelites are told to make a choice, were not really choices, they were commands which the people had no choice but to follow. That can't be backed up biblically, only doctrinally.

No, that is not what I wrote, here are my words:

"The verses that you quote from the old testament that appear to be God giving fallen mankind the opportunity to choose are really only God commanding His chosen people to choose His way."

Let me explain. God CHOSE Israel as His covenant people. Israel did not CHOSE to be His covenant people. There was nothing superior about these people, he decided to pick them out of the world simply because He is God and desired to do so. There is no mention of God giving the heathen or Gentile population any choice to accept Him or reject Him. The Gentiles were dead in sin and DESERVING of hell. Where do we read where anybody but His chosen people are allowed to accept God as their God? Where is this choice? It's not there. The CHOICE was given to Israel to choose whom they will serve. My issue was not that these people (the israelites) didn't have a choice, because they surely did, it's just that we need to look at to WHOM the Old Testament was specifically written. The choice was given to Israel, not the heathen population. Now, I am NOT saying that the old testament is not for us today it surely is, what I am saying is that the commands were given BY God TO His covenant people. No where are gentiles included. This argument really isn't about Choice per se, I agree that man has a choice, it's just that when faced with the choice because he is dead in sins he always chooses to reject. But, the context of the old testament passages you quoted were written to Israel, NOT the gentiles, wheras the new testament opens the door to Gentiles.

I am sorry but this is a ridiculous word game. The point remains, that you are in affect saying that there was no choice, it was God telling the people to choose His way. I still say they were given a choice. Of course God wanted them to choose His way, but that does not mean it was not a legitimate choice on their part.

By the way, Gentiles were included in the Old Testament just as the following passage shows:

(Isaiah 56:6-7 NIV) [6] And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- [7] these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations
If God chooses the time when we get saved, then we are not truly free-will beings. And what does the idea that God chooses when we get saved say about hardened criminals, people like Charles Manson.... people who have chosen to reject Jesus? It says that everything is "pre-destined" (Calvinism) and that we never had any choice in the matter and that God just didn't care about people who aren't serving him because he didn't choose to save them. Christ died once, for all, and it is our choice wether or not we will serve Him. Now it is true that God is omniscient and he knows all things, therefore he already knows the outcome of our choices before we ever make them- but that does not negate the fact that we have a free choice of wether or not we will serve Jesus."

The bible says this:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blamless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will - to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Ephesians 1:4-6)

"Those he predestined, he also called..." This suggests to me that if God has predestined you for salvation, then He will call you in His timing.

God had predestined for me to become a Christian in December 1996. It was then that He called me, not before, not after. This is why I rejected Jesus before that time.

God had predestined for Peter to step out of the boat and to walk on water. Jesus called Him, and Peter responded to the call. Peter did not walk on water before Jesus had called Him. Jesus knew exactly when He would call Peter to come to Himself.

Paul knew about Jesus as he was persecuting the church and slaughtering many Christians. He chose to reject Jesus, but God had predestined him for salvation for a specific time. Jesus called Paul on the Damascus road, and Paul responded to His call.

If God calls you, you can do nothing but respond. When God lifts the blinds from your eyes and you see the truth, you see Him, you cannot reject Him. God and God alone chooses the time when you see the truth. How can we have any choice in seeing the truth? If that was possible, then surely everybody would be Christians?

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, to that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (1Corinthians 4:4)

If unbelievers cannot see "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ", then they certainly cannot choose to see it. It has to be supernaturally revealed to them by God Himself. And of course, only God can choose when and how He does this.

I'll read that when I'm not so tired... *looks overwhelmed at the impressive post* but till then I give you my support!

Wow, I love when ancient threads are suddenly unearthed. :)

I don't intend to defend either stance exclusively [though I can and have in the past] because there are biblical foundations to both views which lead to my belief that this argument should not be dissected into two opposing views. I can take the passages of scripture that speak of foreknowledge and those that speak of foreordination and take it at face value and be completely satisfied with knowing that what God says, He means. God cannot contradict Himself by revelation, though that is indeed what we accuse Him of doing by taking one stance over another. Turning this subject into an exclusive this-or-that argument would have to be heresy by default. Would it not? Both views must be correct. My feeble-minded ability to comprehend the workings of an omniscient God notwithstanding.

isinginmycar -- For future reference, could you please link (http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas26.html) the source of your quotes in your posts to give proper credit to the writer? It doesn't have to be anything fancy. Just something like, 'Hey, I found this on this website [ enter url here ]'. It's still considered plagiarism even if it's just on a silly fansite message board. :-\

I was wondering, what are everyone's position on free will?

Freewill makes sense to me, ya know, God giving us the choice to praise and glorify Him or be against Him and sin.

But it seems in the Bible that God controls our actions. I am sorta lost, does God intervene in our actions all the time, not at all, or some of the time?

Or rather, what do you all think about the "elect"?
---
[niv]
Romans 8:
[28] And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. [29] For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
---

Do *we* choose to believe in God as our Creator and Saviour?

(yes, this has been debated for centuries)

I've been thinking about this recently, and it seems simple enough to me. God has free will, as do we. However, God is omniscient, so He already knows who's going to choose to follow Him, and who isn't. Accordingly, He only chooses to pursue and guide those that He knows are going to follow Him. He is preparing a place for those that do. That's my take on predestination.

But if God knows you are going to hell, why not reveal himself all the time to you so maybe he can change the outcome?

I believe He has foreknowledge. That he see's your whole life before him. Sort of like a parade where as instead of Him standing on the side lines watching he's watching it from above seeing the beginning and the end. but I don't believe he destines it to go a certain way then that would take away free will. And their would be no reason to preach the gospel If only certain "few" are chosen(going to heaven).


He knows everything yet he does give us freedom to choose what road were going to take. Though he may know ahead of time what were going to say,think and do doesn't mean he predestines us . Yet I think prehaps God may have predestine a few for His divine purpose ahead of time such as the prophets.Take jeremiah and king david for example spoke of being known in the womb before being born.

Accordingly, He only chooses to pursue and guide those that He knows are going to follow Him.

i would have to disagree with that, paulish..
i absolutely concretely believe that God gives the same love and affection to every one of the humans he has ever made.

i think that this subject is such a hot debate piece becuz really nobody knows how God exists outside of time. or why he would choose to lavish his love on ones that wont accept him.

but here it is -
God made every person with a purpose for each. He made us to love him, and we are the prize he pursues.
He does everything he can do within situations and communication to bring our realization to Him. yet without touching our free will.
but God knows the beginning to the end, he knows who will choose and who will not. But if God refused his love to those who wouldve said no - then those ppl have no reason to say yes to God. becuz they weren't chased.

man, i know im doing a really bad job of explaining this, just know, God is in control - and He wants us to know Him more than anything. He's praying, he's preparing, He's weeping. and it is definitely our choice to say yes or no.

well...like as some of you said, God can see your whole life in a bird's eye view...like...if you choose to follow God, than he can see like your whole life and he has plans for you if you choose to follow him. but you have free will to follow him or not. so like, that's what i think free will means. like you have the choice...i dunno...i'm bad at explaining things online.

(yes, this has been debated for centuries)
and it's been debated on here as well. :)

i merged your thread with another, old thread that was buried. now there's even more answers you can read up on. :)

and it's been debated on here as well. :)

i merged your thread with another, old thread that was buried. now there's even more answers you can read up on. :)

Sorry, I looked (but didn´t use search...) and couldn´t find it. Thanks a bunch, man!

it's no problem. you're new, you're still getting the hang and feel of the boards. :)

oh, and welcome. :)

My guess is that both are true.

The Bible has enough to back both sides, why does it need to be one or the other? Why can't we have both to be true. It would make sense given God's nature and His habit of taking what is stupidity to most and using it.

God elected people before time began. Since God is outside of time, is it possible that God is before time began now? So He could be electing more people now, we pray for someone's salvation and God elects them before time began, then that person chooses to follow Christ.

Yes it is mind-boggling and head-pickling, but so's the concept of God coming to earth in the flesh and dying to forgive the sins of everyone who believes in Him...

i would have to disagree with that, paulish..
i absolutely concretely believe that God gives the same love and affection to every one of the humans he has ever made.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Hmm... I wasn't talking about love and affection, I was talking about guidance and pursuit. Actually, I was refering to predestination alone. See... what I was trying to say was... predestination is God's special treatment of those that He knows are going to follow Him... get what I'm saying? Maybe not... maybe I'm just plain wrong.

My guess is that both are true.

The Bible has enough to back both sides, why does it need to be one or the other? Why can't we have both to be true. It would make sense given God's nature and His habit of taking what is stupidity to most and using it.

God elected people before time began. Since God is outside of time, is it possible that God is before time began now? So He could be electing more people now, we pray for someone's salvation and God elects them before time began, then that person chooses to follow Christ.

Yes it is mind-boggling and head-pickling, but so's the concept of God coming to earth in the flesh and dying to forgive the sins of everyone who believes in Him...I typed this up... have fun!

Reconcile freewill with these verses:
John 15:
16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 13:
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
----
My stance is this, you can't have freewill without predestination. Nor predestination without freewill. That is
'Predestination' IFF 'Freewill'

(Prepositional logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic)...: )
1] ~ ( F * ~P )
2] ~ ( P * ~F )
3] F v ~ P - - - - - - - - - 1, DM, [DN]
4] P v ~ F - - - - - - - - - 2, DM, [DN]
5] F > P - - - - - - - - - - 3, Impl
6] P > F - - - - - - - - - - 4, Impl
7] ( F > P ) * ( P > F ) - 5,6, Conj
8] F <> P - - - - - - - - - 7, 8, Equiv

And how a biconditional pans out on the truth table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_tables#Truth_table_for_most_commonly_used_lo gical_operators)...:
T
F
F
T

Simply put, it means that if you have one, then you must have the other. If you don't have one, then you cannot have the other.


Sorry, just showing off my intro to logic. Perhaps the best class I have every had.

In Ref. Doctrine my/the teacher said there are two view points that the CRC decided on. One point: Say God has this book. In the book are names of people that were/are chosen [by God] to be Christian. And every page is full. Second point: God has this book. In the book are names of people that become Christians it's half way full, so it contiunes to full up with names. What do you think? I hate it because some man made this up, and I think there are parts/attributes/things of God that should remain a mystery.

There's another idea that i heard a couple years ago. Whenever it mentions that book (the one with our names in it), it talks of blotting out, not of writing in. So what if all the names are already written, of everyone, and only those not willing to accept the Love of the Savior are blotted out. That might help explain the paradox a bit.

That is, since everyone's name is in the book, we are all chosen. But since it's our own choice of accepting the Love of God and living for that Love, we have the choice to keep our name in the book or have it blotted out.

There's another idea that i heard a couple years ago. Whenever it mentions that book (the one with our names in it), it talks of blotting out, not of writing in. So what if all the names are already written, of everyone, and only those not willing to accept the Love of the Savior are blotted out. That might help explain the paradox a bit.

That is, since everyone's name is in the book, we are all chosen. But since it's our own choice of accepting the Love of God and living for that Love, we have the choice to keep our name in the book or have it blotted out.
that's a very good point of view. as for my views on "predestination," i'm really not sure on the whole issue. it says in the Bible that God knows whatever we are going to do in our lives, even before we do it. So that could be kind of like pre-destination, like God knowing already if we are going to hell or not. but He would never make us go to hell. He leaves that decision up to us.

The problem arises not with verses like the kind you mentioned, it comes from verses like James 2:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=5&version=31&context=verse), 2 Thess 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=2&verse=13&version=31&context=verse), and 1 Peter 1:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context). Those verses specifically talk about God choosing us (just as the Israelites are called the Chosen People).

Well, we choose things, that's for sure.

When you ate lunch, there were a lot of things that made it you didn't have free-will to eat whatever you want.
a) Money.
b) Preference (which is built up on things you are comfortable eating, which is built on experience and your culture -- which mainly are out of your control).
c) Time.
d) What is available before you.
e) Hunger.

Technically, I will always buy a Junior Cheeseburger Deluxe with extra mayo and onions, why? Because I don't have free will? No. Because I like it, and over time I have given up how 'free' my will is on the matter.
1) My actions are consistent, most people's are. One person calls it habit, I call it click, whirr.
2) My food choices will be something that is genetically attuned to me, my taste buds will dance.
3) I have been trained, somewhat against my will, to value not wasting money frivolously.
But I still make the choice myself to get the burger.

Now, given all those circumstances slightly take away how 'free' it is, God also has freewill. So He will do whatever He wants. The only thing He doesn't have free will over is just doing things that are against Himself -- God cannot sin. He was, is and always will be perfect.

Throw these together, and you find some paradoxes.

a) God brings you to Wendy's to get a Jr. Cheese Dlx w/ extra mayo & onion for lunch, because He has raised you to come there for this specific moment. He wants you to talk there, of all places (somehow it is the best), with your girlfriend. The moment is right, you wouldn't have gone there or acted the same unless God lead you and brought you to that specific instance. You discuss marriage with her.

People take this to mean God has predestined this. He has raise, guided and acted in this intervening way to get His perfect will done.

b) You go to Wendy's, order the same thing for lunch because you felt like it, you are hoping the moment will be right to talk to your girlfriend. You planned this yourself, you wanted to talk about marriage there. You discuss marriage. You do this all because you want to please God.

People take this to mean that man has a choice. That he chooses what he will buy, where he will be and say what he wants. He controls his destiny.


Oddly, they are one in the same. But I like the (a) perspective.

We hate answers that we don't like. It is clear that God chooses us.
--
Another subject of matter closely related:
God has different rewards for Christian depending on what you did with your gift of faith (is it?). It's really bothersome to me.

Our opinions on what God thinks really don't matter much, do they?

We hate answers that we don't like. It is clear that God chooses us.
--
Another subject of matter closely related:
God has different rewards for Christian depending on what you did with your gift of faith (is it?). It's really bothersome to me.
Why does that bother you, if its in the bible?

Because I hate accepting answers that are not my way.

A fun paradox?

We aren't saved by anything good that we do, right? (For it is by grace that you are saved, it is a gift of God, and that not of works, lest any man may boast)

So, if you believe you are saved BECAUSE you accepted Christ's redemption, aren't you saying that you are saved by something you did? Or is accepting the gift not actually doing something?

We hate answers that we don't like. It is clear that God chooses us.
--
Another subject of matter closely related:
God has different rewards for Christian depending on what you did with your gift of faith (is it?). It's really bothersome to me.Predestination unto salvation is not a biblical term. In every instance where it speaks of predestination or election or even God "choosing" us it is not speaking of salvation. If we look at the verses we see that in that verse or a verse very close that the predestination that is spoken of is defined quite clearly.

In James 2:5 it is speaking to the fact that God doesn't care about money. He only cares about man's righteousness and how much they love Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you[a] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

If you look at this verse it shows what God chose to do. He chose for us to be saved through the sactifying work of the Spirit and through BELIEF in the truth. In otherwords He chose, or predestined, that we would be saved through the spirit and our belief in the truth. A mutually agreed upon decision, one by the Spirit and one by US.

1 Peter 1:1-2 - 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

This verse is firstly speaking to Christians, which Peter calls God's elect. It says that Christians are God's "chosen" for obedience to Jesus. In other words, it's only through Christ that you can be obedient to God. This verse doesn't speak of predestination either.

If you look at Romans 10:9-10 you see that salvation comes through 1. God's grace and 2. your belief. Once again a mutually agreed upon decision. Ephesians 2:8-9 point to this same fact. It all points to the truth that predestination unto salvation is not a biblical term and that following God is a choice.

A fun paradox?

We aren't saved by anything good that we do, right? (For it is by grace that you are saved, it is a gift of God, and that not of works, lest any man may boast)

So, if you believe you are saved BECAUSE you accepted Christ's redemption, aren't you saying that you are saved by something you did? Or is accepting the gift not actually doing something?Accepting the gift is not actually doing anything. If someone offers to give you something you must accept that gift before you can get it. It doesn't mean that you did a single thing to earn that gift, only that you accepted said gift.

Why does that bother you, if its in the bible?It bothers me because it's not in the bible.

The bible says this:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blamless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will - to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Ephesians 1:4-6)

"Those he predestined, he also called..." This suggests to me that if God has predestined you for salvation, then He will call you in His timing.

God had predestined for me to become a Christian in December 1996. It was then that He called me, not before, not after. This is why I rejected Jesus before that time.

God had predestined for Peter to step out of the boat and to walk on water. Jesus called Him, and Peter responded to the call. Peter did not walk on water before Jesus had called Him. Jesus knew exactly when He would call Peter to come to Himself.

Paul knew about Jesus as he was persecuting the church and slaughtering many Christians. He chose to reject Jesus, but God had predestined him for salvation for a specific time. Jesus called Paul on the Damascus road, and Paul responded to His call.

If God calls you, you can do nothing but respond. When God lifts the blinds from your eyes and you see the truth, you see Him, you cannot reject Him. God and God alone chooses the time when you see the truth. How can we have any choice in seeing the truth? If that was possible, then surely everybody would be Christians?

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, to that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (1Corinthians 4:4)

If unbelievers cannot see "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ", then they certainly cannot choose to see it. It has to be supernaturally revealed to them by God Himself. And of course, only God can choose when and how He does this.I pointed out in those verses that you claim point to predestination unto salvation what the predestination is. It isn't unto salvation, but rather to a specific thing, such as, to be adopted or that we'll be conformed to His likeness. It doesn't speak to salvation, only what happens when you accept Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

This verse clearly shows that salvation comes from a mutually agreed upon idea. 1. God's grace and 2. Your faith. Without both of these salvation can't happen. God's grace is a constant, but your faith is a choice. You can choose to have faith in God or not.

A fun paradox?

We aren't saved by anything good that we do, right? (For it is by grace that you are saved, it is a gift of God, and that not of works, lest any man may boast)

So, if you believe you are saved BECAUSE you accepted Christ's redemption, aren't you saying that you are saved by something you did? Or is accepting the gift not actually doing something?

Hehe, I think that is a fun paradox!

But seriously, I think the "accepting of the gift" is more about attitude and belief rather than a physical act or "good deed". We are not saved by good deeds but rather our attitude of submission towards Christ, and the belief that He has redeemed us from our sin and from hell.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

This verse clearly shows that salvation comes from a mutually agreed upon idea. 1. God's grace and 2. Your faith. Without both of these salvation can't happen. God's grace is a constant, but your faith is a choice. You can choose to have faith in God or not.

I disagree.

You are saved BY grace, as in BECAUSE of grace. THROUGH faith. If someone tied a lasso and pulled you out of the depths, would you say that the lasso saved you, or that the person saved you using the lasso?

But you wouldn't be saved without your faith in God. God has grace towards everyone but there are still people headed for hell.

To answer your question, I think the person saved me using the lassoo. But God's grace isn't like a lassoo that graps onto you and doesn't let go. He presents Himself as a helping hand, we have to make the choice to grab onto it.

(oh wait I think I got your metaphor confused...were you comparing the lassoo to God's grace or our faith?)

But you wouldn't be saved without your faith in God. God has grace towards everyone but there are still people headed for hell.

To answer your question, I think the person saved me using the lassoo. But God's grace isn't like a lassoo that graps onto you and doesn't let go. He presents Himself as a helping hand, we have to make the choice to grab onto it.

(oh wait I think I got your metaphor confused...were you comparing the lassoo to God's grace or our faith?)
Toss = grace
Faith = lasso

I don't believe your faith started with you. God started it in you (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=44&version=31&context=verse). Remember, mankind is depraved (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2017:9&version=31), hates the light (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:20-21;&version=31;), and has a sin nature from birth (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12;&version=31;)that God must destroy and make someone alive (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:4-5;&version=31;).

I disagree.

You are saved BY grace, as in BECAUSE of grace. THROUGH faith. If someone tied a lasso and pulled you out of the depths, would you say that the lasso saved you, or that the person saved you using the lasso?You are equating our faith to a lasso. The better way to look at is like this. We are in the depths and the lasso is thrown to us, it is our choice to grab that lasso. Does it mean we saved ourselves? Absolutely not, it just means that it was our will not to die and the person throwing the lasso gave us the opportunity.

Toss = grace
Faith = lasso

I don't believe your faith started with you. God started it in you (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=44&version=31&context=verse). Remember, mankind is depraved (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2017:9&version=31), hates the light (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:20-21;&version=31;), and has a sin nature from birth (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12;&version=31;)that God must destroy and make someone alive (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:4-5;&version=31;).To be able to understand what you say here let's look at each verse. The first one I'll point to is the one where you say we have a sin nature from birth. If you look at the verses after that it shows an interesting thing.

Romans 5:15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

This shows that God's grace overflows to the many. The idea that we are totally depraved is not a biblical idea. For this idea to be correct we must also assume that Children who die before accepting Christ, such as a newborn, go to hell. This is totally unbiblical. Here are a few scriptures that deal with that.

(God said "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it." (Deu 1.39)

For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. (Isa 7.16)

Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there ; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. (Deu 1.39)

“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you” (Ezekiel 28:15).

Now if these scriptures are correct and there is an age of accountability the false idea of inherited sin can not be true because then these children wouldn't be dealt with differently.

John 6:44 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

To understand this verse we must look at other scriptures as well. Romans 10:13 says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." It must be concluded that if "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" then in receiving salvation one must be given the capacity to call on the Lord. That is the work of the Holy Spirit who brings conviction to the heart of man and thus supernaturally makes a man able to respond. Verse 17 says, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Therefore it is clear that when a man hears the word of God, God enables him to believe and accept it. Nowhere does the Bible teach that man has a "spark of divinity" and man is not meriting salvation by consenting to the truth the Holy Spirit enables him to understand and receive it. Salvation is a free gift offered to man. (See Eph. 2:8-9, Romans 5:15-16,18) The Greek word used is carisma and it means a "a gift one receives without any merit of his own." Thus receiving God's grace in salvation is not a work of man by which he merits salvation. It is simply matter of believing in the truth of the gift and accepting it.

Next you point to Jeremiah 17:9 let's look at verse 9 and 10

Jeremiah 17:9-10 - 9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

10 "I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

Verse 10 shows that God rewarded people according to their "deeds" in the Old testament. If you look throughout the Old Testament you will see people who were favored by God, David for one, and this actually disproves the idea that we are born "totally depraved" because it is our deeds that made our rewards.

Next verse is in John, Let's look at that one.

John 3:20-21 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

You are under the incorrect assumption that this verse shows that all men hate the light, it in fact does not state that, only those who do evil hate the light. I don't really see how this helps your debate. Next verse.

Ephesians 2:4-5 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

I've already shown how verses 8 and 9 point to the salvation being by grace THROUGH faith. This shows that salvation is a mutually agreed upon salvation. Not a "I'm going to save you whether you like it or not" salvation.

The Scriptures tell us that man must believe on Jesus Christ in order to be saved. There are literally hundreds of Scriptures that teach that man must believe, trust or have faith in God.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16)

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9)

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." (1 Corinthians 1:21)


A man must believe and by it receive God's offer of salvation. Belief is an act of man's will. In exercising his will and believing what God has said, man has nothing to boast of. The act of atonement for sin was done by the Lord Jesus, not man. Suppose you received a gift from someone that offered it to you out of the goodness of their heart. They did not offer you the gift because you deserved or had earned it, but because they "willed" or wanted you to have it. In their care or love for you they wanted you to have something nice. Would your reaching out and taking the gift then change the event and now mean that you deserved it? Would your act of receiving mean you had earned it or paid something for it? Obviously the answer is no. The one who offers the gift decides within themselves why they give the gift, not the one who accepts it.

quoted from bible-truth.org

The Bible states Christ died for all men. Note what the following verses clearly states:


"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).

"Who (speaking of Christ) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:6).

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" (2 Corinthians 5:14).

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to very creature" (Mark 16:15).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).

Clearly each of these Scriptures teach that Christ died for the sins of all men everywhere and wishes all men to be saved. Any teaching of man that contradicts this truth is false and this should settle the matter. It is understood that those that hold to limited atonement (Calvinism) will counter by saying "the world" and "all men" does not mean all the world and all men, but refers only to the "elect." Surely, such a line of thinking is based on man's faulty reasoning and not on sound hermeneutical principles. The clear meaning of the word "world" (cosmos) as used in the Bible means the whole earth and everyone on it or the lost world. It is never used in the Bible as referring to God's elect. The word "all" is all-inclusive. "All men" encompasses everyone. If God had wanted to limit the scope of salvation, He could have easily chosen a better word than "all", "world" and "every" man! He chose these words because they convey the meaning God intended. He paid the price for all men's sin everywhere in all the world! He bought with His own blood the right to offer all men salvation. Limited atonement would mean he only suffered for those that will be saved and is clearly an unbiblical teaching.

Also quoted from bible-truth.org

To be able to understand what you say here let's look at each verse. The first one I'll point to is the one where you say we have a sin nature from birth. If you look at the verses after that it shows an interesting thing.

Romans 5:15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

This shows that God's grace overflows to the many. The idea that we are totally depraved is not a biblical idea. For this idea to be correct we must also assume that Children who die before accepting Christ, such as a newborn, go to hell. This is totally unbiblical. Here are a few scriptures that deal with that.

There are many Christians. And it doesn't mean that God does not pass over people's sins, umm... that's where we get God's grace. "Age of accountability" would be grace. So, your claim is invalid.

(Deu 1.39)
(Isa 7.16)
(Deu 1.39)

Ignoring these due to point stated and its invalidity.

“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you” (Ezekiel 28:15).

Now if these scriptures are correct and there is an age of accountability the false idea of inherited sin can not be true because then these children wouldn't be dealt with differently.

No, you can have God's grace and inherited sin nature. The fact that we are "totally depraved" is proof of God's grace!

John 6:44 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

To understand this verse we must look at other scriptures as well. Romans 10:13 says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." It must be concluded that if "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" then in receiving salvation one must be given the capacity to call on the Lord. That is the work of the Holy Spirit who brings conviction to the heart of man and thus supernaturally makes a man able to respond. Verse 17 says, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Therefore it is clear that when a man hears the word of God, God enables him to believe and accept it. Nowhere does the Bible teach that man has a "spark of divinity" and man is not meriting salvation by consenting to the truth the Holy Spirit enables him to understand and receive it. Salvation is a free gift offered to man. (See Eph. 2:8-9, Romans 5:15-16,1 The Greek word used is carisma and it means a "a gift one receives without any merit of his own." Thus receiving God's grace in salvation is not a work of man by which he merits salvation. It is simply matter of believing in the truth of the gift and accepting it.

Umm. Yes. As I was saying, God started it. He began the good work in you.

Next you point to Jeremiah 17:9 let's look at verse 9 and 10

Jeremiah 17:9-10 - 9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

10 "I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."


Verse 10 shows that God rewarded people according to their "deeds" in the Old testament. If you look throughout the Old Testament you will see people who were favored by God, David for one, and this actually disproves the idea that we are born "totally depraved" because it is our deeds that made our rewards.

I'm so thankful that I am incapable to do any good on my own.

Next verse is in John, Let's look at that one.

John 3:20-21 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

You are under the incorrect assumption that this verse shows that all men hate the light, it in fact does not state that, only those who do evil hate the light. I don't really see how this helps your debate. Next verse.

Okay, well. Luke 18:

18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

If you aren't good[amplified translates it to 'morally good' or perfect, which isn't that the tone of John 3:20?] (because you aren't God), are you just 'almost good' or evil or what? (if evil, naturally my point is proven)

Ephesians 2:4-5 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

I've already shown how verses 8 and 9 point to the salvation being by grace THROUGH faith. This shows that salvation is a mutually agreed upon salvation. Not a "I'm going to save you whether you like it or not" salvation.

I said that the faith is started BY GOD. So really, if the faith is not started by you, but rather IN you, how can you say it is mutual? I am sure it is mutual as in you both consent, but your consent wasn't of your own nature by any means.

The Scriptures tell us that man must believe on Jesus Christ in order to be saved. There are literally hundreds of Scriptures that teach that man must believe, trust or have faith in God.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16)

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9)

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." (1 Corinthians 1:21)

Yeah, as I said. Through faith. God uses that 'medium' to save us. Without the medium, you cannot be saved. It's God's way.

A man must believe and by it receive God's offer of salvation. Belief is an act of man's will. In exercising his will and believing what God has said, man has nothing to boast of. blah blah blah. Would your reaching out and taking the gift then change the event and now mean that you deserved it? Would your act of receiving mean you had earned it or paid something for it? Obviously the answer is no. The one who offers the gift decides within themselves why they give the gift, not the one who accepts it.

quoted from bible-truth.org

Perhaps if you believed of your own accord, and it was your faith that you started, wouldn't you have something to boast about? "I was smart enough, good enough, or wise enough to accept [compared to people that aren't saved]"

The Bible states Christ died for all men. Note what the following verses clearly states:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).

"Who (speaking of Christ) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:6).

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" (2 Corinthians 5:14).

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to very creature" (Mark 16:15).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:1.

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).

Clearly each of these Scriptures teach that Christ died for the sins of all men everywhere and wishes all men to be saved. Any teaching of man that contradicts this truth is false and this should settle the matter. It is understood that those that hold to limited atonement (Calvinism) will counter by saying "the world" and "all men" does not mean all the world and all men, but refers only to the "elect."blah blah blah. He paid the price for all men's sin everywhere in all the world! He bought with His own blood the right to offer all men salvation. Limited atonement would mean he only suffered for those that will be saved and is clearly an unbiblical teaching.

Also quoted from bible-truth.org

I never, ever said 'limited atonement' was biblical. The fact that you used someone elses' words for me to argue against just tells me you were lazy or didn't care that you were making a strawman argument. (as seen above)

There are many Christians. And it doesn't mean that God does not pass over people's sins, umm... that's where we get God's grace. "Age of accountability" would be grace. So, your claim is invalid.It seems you overlook my arguement



Ignoring these due to point stated and its invalidity.Nice that you ignore scripture.



No, you can have God's grace and inherited sin nature. The fact that we are "totally depraved" is proof of God's grace!Total depravity doesn't prove anything in regards to God's grace. Also you haven't shown that we have an inherited sin nature. If there is a said total depravity then even children would go to hell if they die and I've already proven that to be false.



Okay, well. Luke 18:

18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

If you aren't good[amplified translates it to 'morally good' or perfect, which isn't that the tone of John 3:20?] (because you aren't God), are you just 'almost good' or evil or what? (if evil, naturally my point is proven)I've already pointed out how you are looking into this verse incorrectly. I will not go over it again.



I said that the faith is started BY GOD. So really, if the faith is not started by you, but rather IN you, how can you say it is mutual? I am sure it is mutual as in you both consent, but your consent wasn't of your own nature by any means.Once again, no proof whatsoever that God takes you to heaven kicking and screaming. No proof whatsoever that God forces you to love him. There is however proof that you must have faith.



Yeah, as I said. Through faith. God uses that 'medium' to save us. Without the medium, you cannot be saved. It's God's way.



Perhaps if you believed of your own accord, and it was your faith that you started, wouldn't you have something to boast about? "I was smart enough, good enough, or wise enough to accept [compared to people that aren't saved]"How is that? Just because I have faith that something is true doesn't mean I made that thing true, only that I believed it. God's grace is there, whether we believe or not. Just because scripture says you must have faith and puts that part on you doesn't mean that you can boast about said faith.



I never, ever said 'limited atonement' was biblical. The fact that you used someone elses' words for me to argue against just tells me you were lazy or didn't care that you were making a strawman argument. (as seen above)It seems that you are either ignorant to sources or that you never use them. I guess next time you use a source I will point out that you are lazy. The fact of the matter is that you haven't proven 1. total depravity, 2. inherited sin or 3. predestination to be biblical.

It seems you overlook my arguement
I am not claiming age of accountability to be contradictory to the Bible, or Reformed doctrine. It is another example of grace -- an unmerited gift of salvation for God's good pleasure. I am not arguing that the Calvinism doctrine is right! So stop making some straw man arguments and take what I am actually saying. For example, not bringing up what calvinism says about the Age of Accountability and attacking that when arguing with me.

Nice that you ignore scripture.
Deuteronomy 24:
14 For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.

Is this verse direclty relevant to the current argument? /\ ... Uh, no. So naturally, you will ignore it. Just like I did the verses you posted that I said I ignored. So yes, I was ignoring scripture. :P

Total depravity doesn't prove anything in regards to God's grace. Also you haven't shown that we have an inherited sin nature. If there is a said total depravity then even children would go to hell if they die and I've already proven that to be false.
Total depravity proves impossibility to save oneself, or even derive the faith in Jesus Christ in himself. It comes from God. If there is said Total Depravity, then I'd say every man (baby or 90 year old) would go to Hell if it were not for God's grace! As in, GOD SPARING YOU FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE. NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING YOU DID!


I've already pointed out how you are looking into this verse incorrectly. I will not go over it again.
Lame.



Once again, no proof whatsoever that God takes you to heaven kicking and screaming. No proof whatsoever that God forces you to love him. There is however proof that you must have faith.
I had a calloused heart in Highschool. I don't go to God, kicking and screaming now. He worked on my heart and drew me to Him. I have faith, but I do not (by any means) say that I have faith because of my personality, my upraising, or anything else except that God did not harden my heart but rather enabled me to believe. Read Matthew 11:25-29.

How is that? Just because I have faith that something is true doesn't mean I made that thing true, only that I believed it. God's grace is there, whether we believe or not. Just because scripture says you must have faith and puts that part on you doesn't mean that you can boast about said faith.
I don't get what you mean.

I guess I'd rather you answer me this:
What do you have over someone that is unsaved that made you accept Christ?


It seems that you are either ignorant to sources or that you never use them. I guess next time you use a source I will point out that you are lazy. The fact of the matter is that you haven't proven 1. total depravity, 2. inherited sin or 3. predestination to be biblical.
Who said I was claiming predestination (as you interpret it) to be biblical?

Regarding 1 and 2, read Romans.

Total depravity proves impossibility to save oneself, or even derive the faith in Jesus Christ in himself. It comes from God. If there is said Total Depravity, then I'd say every man (baby or 90 year old) would go to Hell if it were not for God's grace! As in, GOD SPARING YOU FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE. NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING YOU DID!Accepting a gift DOESN'T MEAN YOU DID ANYTHING TO EARN THAT STINKING GIFT SO STOP CLAIMING THAT IF YOU HAVE FAITH THEN IT'S SOMETHING YOU DID BECAUSE IT'S NOT.


I had a calloused heart in Highschool. I don't go to God, kicking and screaming now. He worked on my heart and drew me to Him. I have faith, but I do not (by any means) say that I have faith because of my personality, my upraising, or anything else except that God did not harden my heart but rather enabled me to believe. Read Matthew 11:25-29.So we may agree, kind of. Faith isn't because of your personality or anything else, it's because you choose to believe in Jesus.


I don't get what you mean.

I guess I'd rather you answer me this:
What do you have over someone that is unsaved that made you accept Christ?This is a common arguement of Calvinist. They just can't understand why it is that they believe in Jesus and their friends don't. I don't have anything "over" anyone else. I simply CHOSE to believe in the truths that God displayed.



Who said I was claiming predestination (as you interpret it) to be biblical?

Regarding 1 and 2, read Romans.If you aren't saying that predestination is biblical then why even say that total depravity is? Without predestination total depravity can't stand.

And Romans doesn't prove either of those points, sorry.

Accepting a gift DOESN'T MEAN YOU DID ANYTHING TO EARN THAT STINKING GIFT SO STOP CLAIMING THAT IF YOU HAVE FAITH THEN IT'S SOMETHING YOU DID BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

If I have faith, if I accept a gift, if I trust in Him... how is that not doing something? What is it, then?? I didn't say that faith earns you the gift. In fact, I said the opposite. Salvation is given not because of what you have done (including faith) but rather because of what God has done (including faith). But if faith is something that is done, then God acts on that. Right?

So we may agree, kind of. Faith isn't because of your personality or anything else, it's because you choose to believe in Jesus.
aghhhhhh

This is a common arguement of Calvinist. They just can't understand why it is that they believe in Jesus and their friends don't. I don't have anything "over" anyone else. I simply CHOSE to believe in the truths that God displayed.
So, tell me ... simply why did you choose to believe, while your unsaved friend has not?

(again... I am not a calvinist, nor have I even been raised a calvinist. Rather, almost Arminian!!)

If you aren't saying that predestination is biblical then why even say that total depravity is? Without predestination total depravity can't stand.

And Romans doesn't prove either of those points, sorry.
Predestination as the Calvinists saw it was unbiblical. However, God DOES predestine Christians according to His will.

Romans 5:
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

We are born into sin. Obvious doctrine, you know this.

Romans 6:
20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We were slaves, bound and required by the very nature of sin. We were not righteous. But now, in Christ, we are set free from this 'depravity'.

Now, who is righteous of himself that God sees as good?
Romans 3:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=31#fen-NIV-27986b)]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
... Not one! Wait, don't want to listen to the Apostle Paul (ignoring scripture!)?... Here's Jesus. Amplified ver. and KJV

Mark 10:
17And as He was setting out on His journey, a man ran up and knelt before Him and asked Him, Teacher, [You are essentially and perfectly morally] good, what must I do to inherit eternal life [that is, to partake of eternal salvation in the Messiah's kingdom]?

18And Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me [essentially and perfectly morally] good? [B]There is no one [essentially and perfectly morally] good--except God alone. 19You know the commandments: Do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.

Mark 10:
17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

So, tell me... if you, me, anyone else isn't good (morally or otherwise)... how is this not showing our absolute sin nature? We are slaves to sin, as Paul and Jesus both have said.

Now, if we were morally good, then I can see us choosing God of ourselves. But Jesus said we aren't. We are dead in our sin, but the Lord Jesus Christ makes us alive. Ephesians 2, Amplified ver:

1AND YOU [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins
2In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].

4But God--so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us,
5Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).
6And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

If I have faith, if I accept a gift, if I trust in Him... how is that not doing something? What is it, then?? I didn't say that faith earns you the gift. In fact, I said the opposite. Salvation is given not because of what you have done (including faith) but rather because of what God has done (including faith). But if faith is something that is done, then God acts on that. Right?How can belief be an action? It's not, it's not a work. This is a useless debate. You think that by simply accepting the gift then you've done something. That's rich.


So, tell me ... simply why did you choose to believe, while your unsaved friend has not?

(again... I am not a calvinist, nor have I even been raised a calvinist. Rather, almost Arminian!!)I've already answered that question.


We are born into sin. Obvious doctrine, you know this.

Romans 6:
20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We were slaves, bound and required by the very nature of sin. We were not righteous. But now, in Christ, we are set free from this 'depravity'.Now if you think that this verse means you are born in sin, you are incorrect. Where does it say that?

Now, who is righteous of himself that God sees as good?
Romans 3:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=31#fen-NIV-27986b)]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
... Not one! Wait, don't want to listen to the Apostle Paul (ignoring scripture!)?... Here's Jesus. Amplified ver. and KJV

Mark 10:
17And as He was setting out on His journey, a man ran up and knelt before Him and asked Him, Teacher, [You are essentially and perfectly morally] good, what must I do to inherit eternal life [that is, to partake of eternal salvation in the Messiah's kingdom]?

18And Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me [essentially and perfectly morally] good? [B]There is no one [essentially and perfectly morally] good--except God alone. 19You know the commandments: Do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.

Mark 10:
17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

So, tell me... if you, me, anyone else isn't good (morally or otherwise)... how is this not showing our absolute sin nature? We are slaves to sin, as Paul and Jesus both have said.Where does it say in there again that we are born in sin? I must have missed it. Oh wait, it doesn't, you are assuming something that isn't in scripture.

Now, if we were morally good, then I can see us choosing God of ourselves. But Jesus said we aren't. We are dead in our sin, but the Lord Jesus Christ makes us alive. Ephesians 2, Amplified ver:

1AND YOU [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins
2In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].

4But God--so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us,
5Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).
6And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).Just because you put in there the things that you think the scripture means doesn't mean it actually means that. Once again you haven't proven total depravity. Here is some scriptures that speak of people seeking God.

"But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul." (Deuteronomy
4:29)

"But as for me, I would seek God, And I would place my cause before God;"
(Job 5:

"One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell
in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of
the LORD And to meditate in His temple." (Psalms 27:4)

"Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let those who love Your
salvation say continually, "The LORD be magnified!"" (Psalms 40:16)

"The humble have seen it and are glad; You who seek God, let your heart
revive." (Psalms 69:32)

"6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:6-7)

These scriptures tell us to seek the Lord. Now if as you say it's
impossible for us to seek God then isn't God just being cruel here?
Here's what Jesus says about seeking God.

"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things
will be added to you."
(Matthew 6:33)

"7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and
it will be opened to you. 8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who
seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 "Or what man is
there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?
10 "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!" (Matthew 7:7-11)

Now in light of all that scripture it would be cruel for God to ask us to do something that He knows we can't do wouldn't it be? And we also can't say that the bibles ONLY speaking to those who are saved because before Christ death there wasn't salvation such as it is today. They were justified by other means. So it's obvious that the bible is saying for us, as in ALL of us, to seek God. Which is in direct contradiction to what was said that we wouldn't seek or choose God. I can go on about this also, if you like.

Total Depravity:

The doctrine that man is unable to save himself under any circumstances. That mankind needs an external Saviour. That no amount of good works or church attendance can ever save.

To say that Total Depravity is not true, is suggesting that man can save themselves with works is it not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

Total Depravity:

The doctrine that man is unable to save himself under any circumstances. That mankind needs an external Saviour. That no amount of good works or church attendance can ever save.

To say that Total Depravity is not true, is suggesting that man can save themselves with works is it not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravityNo actually total depravity says that we can't seek God under any circumstances. It says that we can't accept the gift and therefore the gift has to be force on us. Scripture says that we can seek God and that we should. Total depravity says that we can't do that and by saying that then it also says that God is cruel for telling us to do something that we don't have the ability to do.

To accept a gift doesn't mean you had a part in it.

Total depravity isn't biblical.

You did read that link right?

You did read that link right?
Yes and it says this about total depravity.

The doctrine interprets the Bible as teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.

I have already showed scripture that says we must seek God and that we can seek Christ. So to follow is on our shoulders.

Why does scripture call us slaves of sin? Slaves of unrighteousness and in bondage to sin?

No actually total depravity says that we can't seek God under any circumstances. It says that we can't accept the gift and therefore the gift has to be force on us. Scripture says that we can seek God and that we should. Total depravity says that we can't do that and by saying that then it also says that God is cruel for telling us to do something that we don't have the ability to do.

To accept a gift doesn't mean you had a part in it.

Total depravity isn't biblical.
Nope.

We can seek God, but only by His intervention.


44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

And when you read this verse, what does it mean to you?

"]
So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.

Nope.

We can seek God, but only by His intervention.



And when you read this verse, what does it mean to you?

John 6: 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

It says that no one cancome to me unless the father draws him, but it doesn't perpetuate the idea that the Father only draws certain people.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

This scripture is pretty clear that God will draw all men to Himself.

Romans 9:16: 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

This speaks of God's mercy in regards to service and blessings on earth, not about eternal grace.

Why does scripture call us slaves of sin? Slaves of unrighteousness and in bondage to sin?
Scripture also says that Jesus already paid the debt so that you don't have to be slaves to sin. The debt paid was for all men, all we have to do is accept that the debt is paid and that we don't have to be slaves any longer.

I just thought I'd add that the doctrine of predestination pretty much negates the whole reason for God kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. If God "predestines" eveyone, why wouldn't He just "predestine" Adam and Eve to follow His will and not sin? He wants people to choose Him, not be forced into it. God wants relationships not puppets. That was the whole reason for God creating the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was to give them a choice to choose Him or not. God still wants us to choose Him today.

John 6: 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

It says that no one cancome to me unless the father draws him, but it doesn't perpetuate the idea that the Father only draws certain people.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

This scripture is pretty clear that God will draw all men to Himself.


I agree with you. I do think God calls all to follow Him.
However despite that, man can do nothing by themselves to save themselves. Without God's intervention we would eternally live and die as slaves to sin.

That's what I think Total Depravity means. That mankind is rotten to the core with no way of working ourselves out of it.


Scripture also says that Jesus already paid the debt so that you don't have to be slaves to sin. The debt paid was for all men, all we have to do is accept that the debt is paid and that we don't have to be slaves any longer.

I know You prolly didn't intend it, but I think salvation is a liiiittttle more complicated than that.

John 6: 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

It says that no one cancome to me unless the father draws him, but it doesn't perpetuate the idea that the Father only draws certain people.
Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? ... As in, if God draws you (not that you were kicking and screaming) ... how can you resist Him?


19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28161h)] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

So naturally, if you cannot resist God concerning the matter, then He must not draw all to Him for salvation.

Hey, hypothetical thought that just came to mind.

God drew Pharoah, right? But at the same time, He hardened his heart. So God specifically frustrated the entire situation for His glory. Just a thought I'd throw in here.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

This scripture is pretty clear that God will draw all men to Himself.
When will He? When He ascended then, or later? And when He draws them, will He harden their hearts simultaneously?

Romans 9:16: 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

This speaks of God's mercy in regards to service and blessings on earth, not about eternal grace.
Look at the context. It is about how God chooses some to follow Him or not. It says about how He chose Jacob over Esau, not because of anything they did. But rather so that His election might stand. So given the context, it isn't because I did anything of myself that made God choose me, but rather because He had compassion and mercy on me because He is love.

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

I agree with you. I do think God calls all to follow Him.
However despite that, man can do nothing by themselves to save themselves. Without God's intervention we would eternally live and die as slaves to sin.

That's what I think Total Depravity means. That mankind is rotten to the core with no way of working ourselves out of it.




I know You prolly didn't intend it, but I think salvation is a liiiittttle more complicated than that.I agree, without God we couldn't save ourselves. But God doesn't go around saving whomever without them wanting to believe. Why does salvation have to be more complicated? Scriptures says that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart then you will be saved, pretty simple to me.

I still disagree with Total depravity.

Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? ... As in, if God draws you (not that you were kicking and screaming) ... how can you resist Him?Easy, God gives us the FREE WILL to reject Him. If He didn't then why did Satan rebel? That proves free will.



So naturally, if you cannot resist God concerning the matter, then He must not draw all to Him for salvation.

Hey, hypothetical thought that just came to mind.

God drew Pharoah, right? But at the same time, He hardened his heart. So God specifically frustrated the entire situation for His glory. Just a thought I'd throw in here.You think that the Pharoah didn't want to harden his heart? He's the stinkin pharoah, he does what he wants when he wants. He's not going to be told by a shepherd to "let His people go".

Who are you to question scripture that says God draws all to Him? By the way, the Pharoah was in the OT while the scripture I quoted spoke of the Son of Man being lifted up. Two different times.


When will He? When He ascended then, or later? And when He draws them, will He harden their hearts simultaneously?Once again, you are trying to put old testament proof to New Testament truth. They don't go together. Here's something that's cool. God changed the way we come to Him after Jesus' crucifixion. I know that's cool huh?

In either circumstance, what you have just said is irrelevant.


Look at the context. It is about how God chooses some to follow Him or not. It says about how He chose Jacob over Esau, not because of anything they did. But rather so that His election might stand. So given the context, it isn't because I did anything of myself that made God choose me, but rather because He had compassion and mercy on me because He is love.It does not say He chose Jacob for salvation over Esau. It says the older will serve the younger. That's not an eternal service, it a service that's earthly. It seems you think that just because God chose one to serve the other BEFORE they were born then that proves predestination. Well you are wrong. I've looked at the context. Can you show me where it says that He chose one for salvation and not the other?

You still haven't addressed the scriptures I provided that show we can seek God. When you get to that it would be great.

I agree, without God we couldn't save ourselves. But God doesn't go around saving whomever without them wanting to believe. Why does salvation have to be more complicated? Scriptures says that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart then you will be saved, pretty simple to me.

I still disagree with Total depravity.

Just from the way you wrote it, it sounded like you were saying:

Jesus died for my sins, therefore I'm alright. Nothing more to do on my part.

Which you just proved you didn't mean.

-------------------------------------------

Nightcrawler:

If God is in 100% control of everything and does enforce that total control (as it sounds like you're suggesting)

Is God then evil?

If He is in control of everyones actions, then He is compelling them to commit sin.
Wouldn't that make God sinful?

If people were left to their own choices and God allowed them to choose, then there's no problem. People chose evil themselves.

But if God controls our choices, He is FORCING us to condemn ourselves.

I agree, without God we couldn't save ourselves. But God doesn't go around saving whomever without them wanting to believe. Why does salvation have to be more complicated? Scriptures says that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart then you will be saved, pretty simple to me.

I still disagree with Total depravity.

Just from the way you wrote it, it sounded like you were saying:

Jesus died for my sins, therefore I'm alright. Nothing more to do on my part.

Which you just proved you didn't mean.

-------------------------------------------

Nightcrawler:

If God is in 100% control of everything and does enforce that total control (as it sounds like you're suggesting)

Is God then evil?

If He is in control of everyones actions, then He is compelling them to commit sin.
Wouldn't that make God sinful?

If people were left to their own choices and God allowed them to choose, then there's no problem. People chose evil themselves.

But if God controls our choices, He is FORCING us to condemn ourselves.


God hardened Pharaoh's heart. That's a fact.

Did He do that because Pharaoh utterly rejected Him? Or because God felt like it?

Just from the way you wrote it, it sounded like you were saying:

Jesus died for my sins, therefore I'm alright. Nothing more to do on my part.

Which you just proved you didn't mean.

-------------------------------------------

Nightcrawler:

If God is in 100% control of everything and does enforce that total control (as it sounds like you're suggesting)

Is God then evil?

If He is in control of everyones actions, then He is compelling them to commit sin.
Wouldn't that make God sinful?

If people were left to their own choices and God allowed them to choose, then there's no problem. People chose evil themselves.

But if God controls our choices, He is FORCING us to condemn ourselves.Very good points, which is further reasons why Predestination isn't biblical.

Nightcrawler:

If God is in 100% control of everything and does enforce that total control (as it sounds like you're suggesting)
God has control over everything, but He does give us the ability to choose things -- even things that are apart from God, in fact, we will always do such for we are slaves to sin. I am NOT saying that God does evil, hence why I changed from my predestination-down-to-our-every-action stance around November or December of last year.

I am saying we just don't have a choice over salvation.

Is God then evil?

If He is in control of everyones actions, then He is compelling them to commit sin.
Wouldn't that make God sinful?

If people were left to their own choices and God allowed them to choose, then there's no problem. People chose evil themselves.

But if God controls our choices, He is FORCING us to condemn ourselves.
Oops, just covered that. Sorry.

I am saying we just don't have a choice over salvation.

If we don't have a choice over salvation, why did God put the "forbidden fruit" in the garden in the first place? That's the only restriction He put on Adam and Eve! He gave them a choice: serve and obey me, or disobey me and serve yourself. If we didn't have a choice about salvation than God could have NOT put the trees in the garden and Adam and Eve wouldn't have sinned because there would have been no way to sin. Than Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross and it would have saved God a whole lotta trouble!

On another note, if you believe that God is a loving God, why would He create people for the purpose of sending them to Hell? Why wouldn't He save EVERYONE, unless He is sick and twisted and wants to damn people to eternal suffering? The Bible says that it's God's will that none should perish.

If we don't have a choice over salvation, why did God put the "forbidden fruit" in the garden in the first place? That's the only restriction He put on Adam and Eve! He gave them a choice: serve and obey me, or disobey me and serve yourself. If we didn't have a choice about salvation than God could have NOT put the trees in the garden and Adam and Eve wouldn't have sinned because there would have been no way to sin. Than Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross and it would have saved God a whole lotta trouble!

On another note, if you believe that God is a loving God, why would He create people for the purpose of sending them to Hell? Why wouldn't He save EVERYONE, unless He is sick and twisted and wants to damn people to eternal suffering? The Bible says that it's God's will that none should perish.Good points.

You think that the Pharoah didn't want to harden his heart? He's the stinkin pharoah, he does what he wants when he wants. He's not going to be told by a shepherd to "let His people go".
I won't answer whether Pharoah wanted his heart hardened, but I will say that God hardened it.

Exodus 4:
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites.

Exodus 8:
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. -- Here it actually shows any active verbs related to pharoah, everything else has been passive (as in done To him)

Exodus 9:
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Exodus 10:
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

Here it states obviously that God actively intervened for His purpose, even though it meant destruction. And what God wanted in the long run (making His glory and wonders known) trumped the temporary desire, letting the Isrælites go free.

It does not say He chose Jacob for salvation over Esau. It says the older will serve the younger. That's not an eternal service, it a service that's earthly. It seems you think that just because God chose one to serve the other BEFORE they were born then that proves predestination. Well you are wrong. I've looked at the context. Can you show me where it says that He chose one for salvation and not the other?

Now that we have firmly established that God takes away freewill (at least temporarily) for His long-run purpose [example, making His wonders known], let's go back to what Paul says in regards to salvation. The context, once again, of Romans 9, is that Paul is sad that Isræl is fallen from God and how he wishes he could go to hell if it meant saving every last one of his brothers (Isræl) [v 1-5]. Paul mentions how God elects people, yes, individuals, regarding the matter (having a relationship with Him). [v 11-13] It says that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau. I'd assume that the 'hate' means more of in comparison (in that God cut off Esau from having a relationship, whereas He chose Jacob).

Paul is fully aware of the first human reaction, that is, "How can God choose anyone? Isn't that unfair?!" He then argues that God is sovereign, He can do whatever the heck He wants. And that He refers back and says that He will have compassion and mercy on whom HE wants. Then it says that it isn't because of what any one of us have done, or our effort, striving, or desire, but rather God's mercy alone.

Paul refers to what I just posted, and says
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

And then it says that those who are saved or not, well... they didn't have a choice because God's will is supreme. We can't resist it. "Who can resist His will?" -- Rhetorical question, answer... NO ONE. [v 19-21]

Paul continues to say that God desires to show His wonder through salvation of people deserving wrath, and that God shows His power through judgment on people that equally deserve wrath. [v 22-24]


Who are you to question scripture that says God draws all to Him? By the way, the Pharoah was in the OT while the scripture I quoted spoke of the Son of Man being lifted up. Two different times.
Who are you to deny the election of God? Jesus calls those saved as "elect". I'd say it is bullcrap to suggest a blasphemy such that all are chosen to have a relationship with God, which would mean that God is not all powerful, as you can see that not all are saved.


You still haven't addressed the scriptures I provided that show we can seek God. When you get to that it would be great.
You didn't read my reply then. :P Here's what I said:

We can seek God, but only by His intervention.

Very good points, which is further reasons why Predestination isn't biblical.
Romans 8
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Could you please stop saying that "'Predestination' is unbiblical"? Here are 4 verses that say it is!!! /\

If we don't have a choice over salvation, why did God put the "forbidden fruit" in the garden in the first place? That's the only restriction He put on Adam and Eve! He gave them a choice: serve and obey me, or disobey me and serve yourself. If we didn't have a choice about salvation than God could have NOT put the trees in the garden and Adam and Eve wouldn't have sinned because there would have been no way to sin. Than Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross and it would have saved God a whole lotta trouble!
What is God's purpose of His creation? Mind telling me that? I'll explain when you give me the answer.

On another note, if you believe that God is a loving God, why would He create people for the purpose of sending them to Hell? Why wouldn't He save EVERYONE, unless He is sick and twisted and wants to damn people to eternal suffering? The Bible says that it's God's will that none should perish.
The sole purpose isn't for everyone to go to Hell, otherwise we all WOULD. And my counter question is, how come all are not saved? If God wants all men to be saved, then is He not all-powerful?

What does He value more? His glory being revealed, or man's will? I'll refer to Pharoah if you want me to do so.

What is God's purpose of His creation? Mind telling me that? I'll explain when you give me the answer.

God's purpose for creating us was to have a family. For fellowship. That was the reason He wanted to give us a choice. So that we could CHOOSE Him. What would you rather have, a friend that chose to be your friend or someone that didn't have any other choice?

The sole purpose isn't for everyone to go to Hell, otherwise we all WOULD. And my counter question is, how come all are not saved? If God wants all men to be saved, then is He not all-powerful?

God is all powerful. God also wants everyone to be saved. A loving God would not WANT some people to go to hell. God gave us free will so that we would have the choice to choose Him over anything else. He knew very well that by giving us free will He was also giving us the power to reject Him and therefore the power to send ourselves to hell. God created Man with free will and He's not going to violate His integrity by taking it away again and forcing people to be saved. He gave us the choice and He stands by that (He is an unchanging God), though I'm sure it breaks His heart to see His children reject Him and damn themselves to hell.

What does He value more? His glory being revealed, or man's will? I'll refer to Pharoah if you want me to do so.

I believe that He values His integrity more than His glory being revealed. And as I stated earlier He gave us free will I don't believe that He's going to take it away just to show off His glory. I think God's glory is best revealed by a person who chooses to live for God and loves Him with all his heart.

As for Pharoah, I think I'll give that I little more thought and study before I reply to that.

I won't answer whether Pharoah wanted his heart hardened, but I will say that God hardened it.

Exodus 4:
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites.

Exodus 8:
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. -- Here it actually shows any active verbs related to pharoah, everything else has been passive (as in done To him)

Exodus 9:
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Exodus 10:
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

Here it states obviously that God actively intervened for His purpose, even though it meant destruction. And what God wanted in the long run (making His glory and wonders known) trumped the temporary desire, letting the Isrælites go free.The pharoah had already rejected the God of the Israelites. He had already rejected all God did was harden something that was already hardened somewhat.



Now that we have firmly established that God takes away freewill (at least temporarily) for His long-run purpose [example, making His wonders known], let's go back to what Paul says in regards to salvation. The context, once again, of Romans 9, is that Paul is sad that Isræl is fallen from God and how he wishes he could go to hell if it meant saving every last one of his brothers (Isræl) [v 1-5]. Paul mentions how God elects people, yes, individuals, regarding the matter (having a relationship with Him).You are wrong, it never mentions election at all in these verses. [v 11-13] It says that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau. I'd assume that the 'hate' means more of in comparison (in that God cut off Esau from having a relationship, whereas He chose Jacob).Once again it doesn't say that Esau couldn't have a relationship, or that God chose for Him to not have one. Another translated word for Hate here would be enemy.

Romans 9:25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"

That scripture shows that God can forgive His enemies.

Paul is fully aware of the first human reaction, that is, "How can God choose anyone? Isn't that unfair?!" He then argues that God is sovereign, He can do whatever the heck He wants. And that He refers back and says that He will have compassion and mercy on whom HE wants. Then it says that it isn't because of what any one of us have done, or our effort, striving, or desire, but rather God's mercy alone.We don't disagree here. You simply state that we can't come to God, that is an unbiblical idea. One I've already disproven with scripture saying that there are those who seek God and scripture telling us plainly to seek God.

Paul refers to what I just posted, and says
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

And then it says that those who are saved or not, well... they didn't have a choice because God's will is supreme. We can't resist it. "Who can resist His will?" -- Rhetorical question, answer... NO ONE. [v 19-21]

Paul continues to say that God desires to show His wonder through salvation of people deserving wrath, and that God shows His power through judgment on people that equally deserve wrath. [v 22-24]In regards to Pharaoh being "raised up" that's not speaking of raised up from birth.

Why did you answer a question that scripture didn't answer right there? Here's is some scripture that proves we can resist God.

Verses showing People resisting God

2 Chron 13:8 People are resisting the Kingdom of God

Job 9:4 Job said, "Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed?"

Isaiah 1:20 If you resist, you will be devoured by the sword

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people … you always resist the Holy Spirit


God can be grieved by our actions and calamities
(This shows God is grieved when we reject Him)

1 Chron. 2:15 God was grieved because of their calamity

2 Samuel 24:16 God was grieved because of the calamity

Acts 7:51 Holy Spirit can be resisted

Ephesians 4:30 Holy Spirit can be grieved

Ezekiel 6:9 God is grieved by their adulterous hearts

Genesis 6:6 It grieved God that He made mankind

Isaiah 63:10 Their actions vexed the Holy Spirit

Isaiah 63:10 God’s people rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit

Jeremiah 42:10 God is grieved over disasters

Psalm 78:40 God’s people grieved Him

People can reject God
(This shows people have the ability to choose to go to Heaven or Hell.)

1 Chron. 28:9 If you forsakeHim, He will forsake you

2 Chron. 15:2 If you forsake Him, He will forsake you

Ezekiel 18:23 The wicked should return from his ways and live

Ezekiel 18:30 Repent and turn from your transgressions

Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away your transgressions … make yourself a new heart

Ezekiel 18:32 The wicked should return from his ways and live

Ezekiel 3:19 If the wicked does not turn from his wicked ways he will die in his sins

Ezekiel 33:19 If the wicked turns from his wickedness … he shall live

Ezekiel 33:9 If the wicked does not turn from his wicked ways, he will die in his sins

John 3:18 He that believeth not is condemned already

John 3:36 He that believeth not shall not see life

John 5:40 … and you will not come to me that you might have life

John 8:24 You will die in your sins because you do not believe I am He

Luke 12:9 He that denies me shall be denied

Mark 8:16:16 Whoever does not believe will be condemned

Mark 8:35 Whoever will save his own life will lose it

Mark 8:38 Whoever is ashamed of me … I will be ashamed

Matthew 16:25 Whoever saves his own life will lose it

So it would see that you are wrong in answering God's question.





Who are you to deny the election of God? Jesus calls those saved as "elect". I'd say it is bullcrap to suggest a blasphemy such that all are chosen to have a relationship with God, which would mean that God is not all powerful, as you can see that not all are saved.I've proven mine with scripture that shows that 1. God wants all to be saved and 2. God calls all people. You have not shown either to be false.



You didn't read my reply then. :P Here's what I said:And apparently you didn't read my reply which said this.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

This scripture is pretty clear that God will draw all men to Himself.

Are you denying scripture that says all men will be drawn to Jesus? Are you saying that Jesus is a liar? If this scripture is true then your idea doesn't go against what I've said.


Romans 8
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son , that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. This is a common misquoting by Calvinist. This scripture does say that we are predestined, but it doesn't say unto salvation. I've bolded the part that we are predestined to. The word foreknew simply speaks about God's knowledge about future events, not about predestination.

Ephesians 1:
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world tobe holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.Another misquote by Calvinists. I've bolded the parts that we were "chosen" to and "predestined". To be holy and blameless in his sight and to be adopted, respectively. Nothing here about predestination unto salvation. Only what happens after we accept Christ.

11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.I've bolded what we are predestined to here as well, no such thing as predestination unto salvation.

Could you please stop saying that "'Predestination' is unbiblical"? Here are 4 verses that say it is!!! /\I've never said that predestination was unbiblical. I've always said that PREDESTINATION UNTO SALVATION IS UNBIBLICAL, and it is. I've shown how you are looking at these scriptures wrong.

The sole purpose isn't for everyone to go to Hell, otherwise we all WOULD. And my counter question is, how come all are not saved? If God wants all men to be saved, then is He not all-powerful?

What does He value more? His glory being revealed, or man's will? I'll refer to Pharoah if you want me to do so.Once again you are calling scripture a liar.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 - 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

In regards to Pharoah you haven't proven that he didn't reject God prior to that and that the hardening of the heart wasn't something that made an already hard heart even harder.

Verses showing God wants us to seek Him
(If God is going to force us to become Christians, why is He asking us to seek Him?)

1 Chron 16:11
Seek His face always

1 Chron 28:9
If you seek Him, He will be found by you

1 Chron. 2:8,9
If you seek Him, He will be found

2 Chron 19:3
Set your heart on seeking the Lord

2 Chron. 15:2
If you seek Him, He will be found

2 Chron. 7:14
Seek my face

Acts 15:17
That the remnant of men seek the Lord

Amos 5:4
Seek me and live

Amos 5:6
Seek the Lord and live

Colossians 3:1
Seek those things that are above

Deut. 4:29
Seek the Lord

Hebrews 11:6
God rewards those who earnestly seek Him

Isaiah 55:6
Seek the Lord while He may be found

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all of your heart

Job 8:5
Seek God early

Lam. 3:25
God is good to those who seek Him

Luke 11:9,10
Seek and you will find

Luke 12:31
Seek His kingdom

Matthew 6:33
Seek God’s kingdom

Proverbs 8:17
Those who seek Me will find Me

Psalms 105:4
Seek His face always

Psalms 119:2
Blessed are those who seek Him with all their hearts

Psalms 27:8
God said seek my face

Psalms 69:32
The heart that seeks God shall live

Zephaniah 2:3
Seek the Lord

All scriptures that prove that we can seek God and that we should do that. This disproves the false teaching of total depravity, which says we can't seek God.

This is a common misquoting by Calvinists.
Another misquote by Calvinists.

I just thought I'd point out that he already said he was not a Calvinist a few times, so it'll probably just frustrate things to say that. Predestination unto salvation is a Calvinistic doctrine but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is a Calvinist.

Other than that, good points, good scriptures, I liked your post.

About Pharoah though, I keep thinking that it's a different situation than today because that was the OT. Pharoah had already rejected God and wasn't going to follow His commands. So God hardened his heart so that His glory could be displayed. But that doesn't really jive with what the NT teaches. In the OT God needed to "show off", in a sense, His glory, to make Himself known to the people of Israel. After Jesus died on the cross, we can have the Holy Spirit inside of us showing us the things of God, the greats acts of God aren't necessary to display His glory anymore. I'm going to quote myself: I think God's glory is best revealed by a person who chooses to live for God and loves Him with all his heart.

I just thought I'd point out that he already said he was not a Calvinist a few times, so it'll probably just frustrate things to say that. Predestination unto salvation is a Calvinistic doctrine but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is a Calvinist.You are probably right, but I wasn't calling Him a Calvinist, just showing how His beliefs mimmick Calvinism. If He says he's not a Calvinist then he's not.

Other than that, good points, good scriptures, I liked your post.Thanks.

The sole purpose isn't for everyone to go to Hell, otherwise we all WOULD. And my counter question is, how come all are not saved? If God wants all men to be saved, then is He not all-powerful?

What does He value more? His glory being revealed, or man's will? I'll refer to Pharoah if you want me to do so. Once again you are calling scripture a liar.

Careful what you say. You are accusing someone of claiming Scripture lies when he isn't saying anything of that sort. He never claimed that God does not want all men to be saved. In fact, i see him wondering how that desire for all men's salvation works with God's omnipotence.

There have been a few times, actually, when you've been rather harsh with Nightcrawler (maybe others, but mostly him), and simply because he disagrees with you.

Predestination and Free Will and all the other junk that goes with both those ideas have been debated for centuries. Both ideas have grounding in the Bible.

Yes, predistination has grounding in the Bible. Your refutation of those verses doesn't hold up (imo). You hold that the Bible never says predistination unto salvation. You seem to want that phrase exactly. As i understand it, "Salvation" isn't the only way to describe our freedom in Christ. "Adopted as sons" (eph. 1:5) seems to work well. "Conformed to the likeness" of Christ (rom 8:29) works too. If the phrase "In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ" doesn't mean we are predistined to salvation, what does it mean? You have yet to offer viable alternative(s) to that interpretation.

And remember, that is your interpretation. There is no surefire way to prove in court that you are correct and no other way is. That is what i love about the Bible: as brothers we can get together and discuss a piece of Scripture and find vastly different things in that Scripture. And like the two men who see two different sides to a sculpture and call it by different names, we can both be correct (not always, to be sure, but on verses such as these, definitely).

Dawn of Light, i just want to warn you of how you say God acts differently now than he did in the Old Testament times. He is the same God, the only constant in the Universe (not even the speed of light is always the same, and that's about the only constant we have). He may seem to do things differently, but he's still the same. Even the Holy Ghost was around back in the Old Testament (David talks of him in the Psalms at various points).

Oh, I wasn't trying to say that God had changed or anything (I'm pretty sure I mentioned that God is an unchanging God in one of my previous posts). I was speculating about how and why God hardened Pharoah's heart and how that relates to us now.

He may seem to do things differently, but he's still the same.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. God's purpose never changes, but sometimes the method for doing things does.

I know that the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost, same thing) was around back then but now we can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I know that there are verses in the OT (I can't remember exactly where) where the Holy Spirit revealed Himself to someone but it's not the same thing as having Him inside your heart. I'm not saying all this to derail the thread I was just responding to what you said because what you interpreted from my posts wasn't what I was trying to say.

A little side note about biblical debates: This is a debate so of course we all think we're right and are trying to prove that we're right. But I try my best not to get upset or frustrated because the main purpose of it is to understand what someone else thinks and believes, not shove our interpretation of scripture down people's throats. I personally, really enjoy Mars Hill and debating but if someone posts something that makes me angry or upset I'll give myself some time (a few hours or a few days) to cool down so that I don't come back with a biting remard and make the situation into an argument rather than a debate.

Careful what you say. You are accusing someone of claiming Scripture lies when he isn't saying anything of that sort. He never claimed that God does not want all men to be saved. In fact, i see him wondering how that desire for all men's salvation works with God's omnipotence.

There have been a few times, actually, when you've been rather harsh with Nightcrawler (maybe others, but mostly him), and simply because he disagrees with you.Well I guess that if you only look at my posts it would seem that it's just me. We have been going back and forth for some time now. Now offense is meant, but it's not just me.

Predestination and Free Will and all the other junk that goes with both those ideas have been debated for centuries. Both ideas have grounding in the Bible.

Yes, predistination has grounding in the Bible. Your refutation of those verses doesn't hold up (imo). You hold that the Bible never says predistination unto salvation. You seem to want that phrase exactly. As i understand it, "Salvation" isn't the only way to describe our freedom in Christ. "Adopted as sons" (eph. 1:5) seems to work well. "Conformed to the likeness" of Christ (rom 8:29) works too. If the phrase "In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ" doesn't mean we are predistined to salvation, what does it mean? You have yet to offer viable alternative(s) to that interpretation.It seems that while you have been looking at my posts you haven't been reading them. The predestination spoken of here is about what happens when you accept Christ. You will be adopted into His family and receive the rewards that brings. While I understand that most people can look at a single scripture and get their doctrine from that, I have provided ample evidence that points to 1. Us being able to follow Christ. 2. God telling us to seek Him. 3. Salvation is by God's grace, His part, and our faith, our part a mutually agreed upon salvation. 4. You can resist God, which if predestination was biblical then you couldn't resist God. 5. That Jesus died for all. 6. That God wishes that NONE SHOULD PERISH, if He wishes that and predestination is biblical then why not predestine us all to heaven? Which is a question noone who believes in predestination has been able to answer.

So if you take all scripture together the only way to look at that scripture is through the light that it means not predestination unto salvation, but predestination unto the way God looks at those who accept Him. The reason we must be adopted is because we aren't Jewish. If God didn't predestinate the adoption then we would be illigitimate. But once again that's just your opinion.

And remember, that is your interpretation. There is no surefire way to prove in court that you are correct and no other way is. That is what i love about the Bible: as brothers we can get together and discuss a piece of Scripture and find vastly different things in that Scripture. And like the two men who see two different sides to a sculpture and call it by different names, we can both be correct (not always, to be sure, but on verses such as these, definitely).You are correct. But the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the opinion that I have.

I don't see how we can both be right in regards to predestination, but if you wish to believe that go ahead.

6. That God wishes that NONE SHOULD PERISH, if He wishes that and predestination is biblical then why not predestine us all to heaven? Which is a question noone who believes in predestination has been able to answer.

If I gave the answer, would you listen? I tried to give it.

God has two wills, essentially. Like one might value learning how to catch fish (satisfaction forever) as opposed to be given fish (for a meal). God wishes that all should not perish, but there is something He values more.

Arminian: God values that humans have freewill more.
Reformed: God values that He receives more glory.

As dawn_of_light was saying, she believes that God recieves more glory by giving man a choice, to choose Him. Whereas I am saying that giving God all the credit for salvation and everything else lines up with the notion that all creation is God-centred -- as in everything is by Him and for Him/His glory. Colossians 1:16-17

You are correct. But the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the opinion that I have.

I don't see how we can both be right in regards to predestination, but if you wish to believe that go ahead.
::]

SIDENOTE:
About God's taking away of mankind's freewill for various times, tell me... Why do you even bother pray to God for the salvation of your friend or someone else that you know? Honestly, if it is ultimately up to God, then it makes sense. If it is up to the man, why pray to God about it? Unless you only think that God 'interfers' with matter, not spirits.

I don't see how we can both be right in regards to predestination, but if you wish to believe that go ahead.

The two only contradict when you're confining God to time.

The moment you allow God free passage back and forth through time, it all fits perfectly.

If God picked people before the foundations of the world to be saved, so what?
God can go back and elect as many more as He pleases.

God works in peoples lives, to have them accept Him.


God chooses them way before to follow Him
They choose to follow Him

Both happen simultaneously as far as God is concerned.

But if He chooses them BECAUSE they chose Him, then isn't it negating HIS choice? Because then it isn't Him choosing us, but rather us choosing Him ... and Him conforming His will/plan/election to our own. Which in turn means we make God choose us by OUR choice. Which doesn't sound to far away from controlling God -- taking away His sovereignty (yup, I said it).

The two only contradict when you're confining God to time.

The moment you allow God free passage back and forth through time, it all fits perfectly.

If God picked people before the foundations of the world to be saved, so what?
God can go back and elect as many more as He pleases.

God works in peoples lives, to have them accept Him.


God chooses them way before to follow Him
They choose to follow Him

Both happen simultaneously as far as God is concerned.I understand what you mean now. I disagree with it because it still makes God a dictator.

If I gave the answer, would you listen? I tried to give it.

God has two wills, essentially. Like one might value learning how to catch fish (satisfaction forever) as opposed to be given fish (for a meal). God wishes that all should not perish, but there is something He values more.

Arminian: God values that humans have freewill more.
Reformed: God values that He receives more glory.

As dawn_of_light was saying, she believes that God recieves more glory by giving man a choice, to choose Him. Whereas I am saying that giving God all the credit for salvation and everything else lines up with the notion that all creation is God-centred -- as in everything is by Him and for Him/His glory. Colossians 1:16-17Here's what I'm saying. God desires to be glorified through people who CHOOSE to worship Him. He doesn't wish that any should perish. Your explaination doesn't fit at all. It doesn't explain the delima that people who believe in predestination unto salvation are in. If it is 100% up to God and He doesn't give us the choice then why do some go to hell? It is entirely God's will that NONE should perish. Unfortunately you haven't explained it at all.


::]

SIDENOTE:
About God's taking away of mankind's freewill for various times, tell me... Why do you even bother pray to God for the salvation of your friend or someone else that you know? Honestly, if it is ultimately up to God, then it makes sense. If it is up to the man, why pray to God about it? Unless you only think that God 'interfers' with matter, not spirits.I don't see it as interferance at all. When you pray for salvation you pray that the person has an open heart to the message. Not everyone is going to be saved. If it was entirely up to God without us getting a choice then why even pray at all? Because God has already shown in His word that He wishes NONE to perish. Why would God tell us to seek Him if we don't have a choice? Why would God tell us to evangelize if we don't have a choice? Why in scripture are people able to resist the will of God but we aren't? Why allow sin into this world if we have no choice? If we didn't have a choice then Adam and Eve would have served God perfectly, but they didn't and it further proves that we have free will.

But if He chooses them BECAUSE they chose Him, then isn't it negating HIS choice? Because then it isn't Him choosing us, but rather us choosing Him ... and Him conforming His will/plan/election to our own. Which in turn means we make God choose us by OUR choice. Which doesn't sound to far away from controlling God -- taking away His sovereignty (yup, I said it).We seem to agree. They both can't be right. Unfortunately what you believe is wrong:P Couldn't resist.

But if He chooses them BECAUSE they chose Him, then isn't it negating HIS choice? Because then it isn't Him choosing us, but rather us choosing Him ... and Him conforming His will/plan/election to our own. Which in turn means we make God choose us by OUR choice. Which doesn't sound to far away from controlling God -- taking away His sovereignty (yup, I said it).

Explain to me why it cannot be both simultaneously.

i.e. Not one forcing the other, but both happening simultaneously.

Explain to me why it cannot be both simultaneously.

i.e. Not one forcing the other, but both happening simultaneously.Why have predestination if there is a choice? Why have a choice if there is predestination? Both happening simultaneously doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense to me. God chose us before the foundation of the world because He knew exactly who would choose Him in the future. We don't force Him to choose us. He wants to. He didn't force us to choose Him. We want to. We choose each other. Our relationship with Christ is often likened to a marriage where we are the Bride and Christ is the Groom. A husband and wife aren't forced into relationship with each other (except for arranged marriages perhaps) they choose one another.

The question has been asked before: If salvation isn't a choice, why bother evangelizing? If the fate of everyone of the planet has already been decided, why bother teaching anyone about Christ?

It makes sense to me. God chose us before the foundation of the world because He knew exactly who would choose Him in the future. We don't force Him to choose us. He wants to. He didn't force us to choose Him. We want to. We choose each other. Our relationship with Christ is often likened to a marriage where we are the Bride and Christ is the Groom. A husband and wife aren't forced into relationship with each other (except for arranged marriages perhaps) they choose one another.

The question has been asked before: If salvation isn't a choice, why bother evangelizing? If the fate of everyone of the planet has already been decided, why bother teaching anyone about Christ?That question also points to the problem of them both being correct at the same time. I do however understand what you are saying, I just don't think it is logical.

That question also points to the problem of them both being correct at the same time. I do however understand what you are saying, I just don't think it is logical.

All a matter of Time Michael... All a matter of Time.

God wants us to choose Him.
We are in bondage to sin and thus unable to choose Him. (slaves to sin, you always serve your master etc.)

By having predestination AND Free Will at the same time, both conditions are made true.

By God's predestination we are able to choose Him.
By our Free Will we can then choose Him or reject Him.


Having JUST Free Will or JUST Predestination has way too many holes to be true. Let me explain

Predestination:
God becomes the Author of evil. If God chooses everything that will happen, He chose the existance of evil and sin.
God forces people into hell without a chance for salvation.
God is the cause of every bit of death and pain in the world.
Ultimately, God is schizophrenic.

Free Will:
Our salvation is never sure and never certain. If everything rests upon us, then the moment we sin after accepting Christ, we just lost our salvation. So we hop in and out of have it, lost it, have it, lost it.

Salvation does not come from God. If we have to do something to be saved, then it's no better than the Old Covenant where ritual sacrifices and ordinances were needed. We simply dropped 99% of them.
If we need to choose to follow God daily, always watching our step in case we fall, we live a life of fear. We do not walk by grace, we walk by terror.

God is not sovereign, He is not in control, He cannot affect anyone's life.


The only way salvaton and scripture make sense, is if both Predestination and Free Will are equally true simultaneously.


I am aware I took both sides there to their extremes. But I think the best way to analyse the validity of a point is to take it to it's final conclusion.
If Free Will is all there is, then God has no power over man. That is the ultimate conclusion to it.

All a matter of Time Michael... All a matter of Time.

God wants us to choose Him.
We are in bondage to sin and thus unable to choose Him. (slaves to sin, you always serve your master etc.)

By having predestination AND Free Will at the same time, both conditions are made true.

By God's predestination we are able to choose Him.
By our Free Will we can then choose Him or reject Him.


Having JUST Free Will or JUST Predestination has way too many holes to be true. Let me explain

Predestination:
God becomes the Author of evil. If God chooses everything that will happen, He chose the existance of evil and sin.
God forces people into hell without a chance for salvation.
God is the cause of every bit of death and pain in the world.
Ultimately, God is schizophrenic.

Free Will:
Our salvation is never sure and never certain. If everything rests upon us, then the moment we sin after accepting Christ, we just lost our salvation. So we hop in and out of have it, lost it, have it, lost it.

Salvation does not come from God. If we have to do something to be saved, then it's no better than the Old Covenant where ritual sacrifices and ordinances were needed. We simply dropped 99% of them.
If we need to choose to follow God daily, always watching our step in case we fall, we live a life of fear. We do not walk by grace, we walk by terror.

God is not sovereign, He is not in control, He cannot affect anyone's life.


The only way salvaton and scripture make sense, is if both Predestination and Free Will are equally true simultaneously.


I am aware I took both sides there to their extremes. But I think the best way to analyse the validity of a point is to take it to it's final conclusion.
If Free Will is all there is, then God has no power over man. That is the ultimate conclusion to it.You put it very well there, but you did error when explaining free will. Free will doesn't put everything on us, it puts the decision on us. The salvation has always been from God and He sustains that salvation because that's who God is. Also, in free will you don't have to do anything except to accept the gift that God has offered to you. Salvation comes from God. The predestination that we are speaking of, one unto salvation, can not be true at the same time free will is. Predestination unto salvation takes away man's, and woman's, free will. It says that you are going to be saved period. Now the predestination that the bible speaks of, one where when we accept Christ we are conformed to His likeness and adopted into His family, can be true at the same time free will is. That is probably what you are talking about. But predestination unto salvation can't go hand in hand with free will because it takes away man's free will.

To summarize,

1. Predestination to be adopted into God's family after salvation, biblical.

2. Predestination to be conformed to His likeness after we accept His gift, biblical.

3. Predestination unto salvation without free will, unbiblical.

4. Free will that says we must accept the gift that is offered, biblical.

1,2, and 4 can and are all true at the same time. 3 must stand alone because it negates number 4.

I agree with both of you. Essentially, you're saying the exact same thing, it's just semantics. Scott, you made a good point about the Time thing, I've heard that before as an explanation to the "predestination" verses in the Bible, but clearly I didn't remember it.

Nightcrawler, I'm interested to know what you think about the ideas Scott presented. I'm also interested to know what you think about about evangelizing, praying for people's salvation, etc.

I don't agree with number 3 either.

What I do think is that without God's intervention noone is capable of choosing Him.

The bible does that there are none who seek God, not even one (can't find location right now)

You put it very well there, but you did error when explaining free will. Free will doesn't put everything on us, it puts the decision on us. The salvation has always been from God and He sustains that salvation because that's who God is. Also, in free will you don't have to do anything except to accept the gift that God has offered to you. Salvation comes from God.

As I said, I was exaggerating to its extreme.
If you follow the path that God is not sovereign and does not interfere with mens choices, then the ultimate place you end up at is that everything IS on us.

If Man's free will is all there is to salvation, then we can lose and gain salvation multiple times IN ONE DAY.
Back and forth, in and out.
Utterly pointless and fruitless.
If we cannot be sure of God's sovereignty in our lives, then we can never be sure of our salvation, so you live in fear till you die.

I agree with your position, I following both sides to their extreme.

Which is why I think Predestination and Free Will BOTH play a role in man's salvation.

I understand what you mean now. I disagree with it because it still makes God a dictator.
What part of 'almighty supreme sovereign God' didn't you understand? :P

Here's what I'm saying. God desires to be glorified through people who CHOOSE to worship Him. He doesn't wish that any should perish. Your explaination doesn't fit at all. It doesn't explain the delima that people who believe in predestination unto salvation are in. If it is 100% up to God and He doesn't give us the choice then why do some go to hell? It is entirely God's will that NONE should perish. Unfortunately you haven't explained it at all.
::]
It didn't say that it was ENTIRELY God's will, or that it is the ONLY thing that God wants.

I don't see it as interferance at all. When you pray for salvation you pray that the person has an open heart to the message. Not everyone is going to be saved. If it was entirely up to God without us getting a choice then why even pray at all? Because God has already shown in His word that He wishes NONE to perish. Why would God tell us to seek Him if we don't have a choice? Why would God tell us to evangelize if we don't have a choice? Why in scripture are people able to resist the will of God but we aren't? Why allow sin into this world if we have no choice? If we didn't have a choice then Adam and Eve would have served God perfectly, but they didn't and it further proves that we have free will.
An open heart? Okay, maybe there is some misunderstanding. If God changes your heart, then He changes your desires/will/etc. Thus my point. God makes your will His, so while you still have a 'freewill', it isn't something borne of your fleshly nature, but rather purely from God via the Holy Spirit's intervention. As in, you have a choice, but God made it for you because He knows what is best for you.

I'll address evangelism soon.

It makes sense to me. God chose us before the foundation of the world because He knew exactly who would choose Him in the future. We don't force Him to choose us. He wants to. He didn't force us to choose Him. We want to. We choose each other. Our relationship with Christ is often likened to a marriage where we are the Bride and Christ is the Groom. A husband and wife aren't forced into relationship with each other (except for arranged marriages perhaps) they choose one another.
In the analogy of the bride and groom, the Jewish tradition was that the groom would go to the bride's father and buy the bride from him. Yes, buy (and seek permission of course). I don't know exactly of the courting process, but still. They get married when they complete the house that was being prepared for the newlyweds.

Parallel: Jesus Christ came into the world, by the will of the Father, and bought His bride with His death on the cross. A place is being prepared for His bride, in heaven.

Interesting parallel, however, is that I recall the bride not being able to decide whether to accept the husband or not. I believe that if she had a problem with it, the father wouldn't give her to the groom, and that was the only condition. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

The question has been asked before: If salvation isn't a choice, why bother evangelizing? If the fate of everyone of the planet has already been decided, why bother teaching anyone about Christ?
I was given this example when referring to evangelism is this, it is like fishing. Some fish are hungry, and you don't know which ones are. So you go fishing and you catch whichever are. Now, bring it back to salvation: Some are enabled for salvation (John 6:65 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=65&version=31&context=verse), Acts 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=2&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)), you don't know which ones.

So you go out and preach and spread the gospel and pray that God opens hearts, and draws those to be saved. You still pray, because cogently you don't know His plan and it is still your desire to make God's name known and His glory revealed. Just like as if you bait the hook and go to the right spots to fish, looking for some to be reeled in, hoping to make a big catch. God has decided which fish are to be reeled in, which are hungry, etc. You don't know, so you still try your best to catch them.

I'd also like to slam this annoying misunderstanding of predeterminded things:
"If I am going to Hell anyway, why should I bother accepting Christ?" or "I am going to Heaven anyway, I can go rape and kill and steal!" or "God already decided how the world is going to end, let's blow it up and get it over with!"

All of them just don't work. Why? Because you DON'T KNOW the result! You don't know you are going to Hell or Heaven unless it is proven. Heaven -- by faith and His divine favor, which is not proven by a poor mindset of "I can go sin!!!", but rather negated by it.

It is also like how my best friend's girlfriend asked about my friend Sarah: "So you're saying that she can go mess around with other guys if she wants". The answer is yes. While that answer may be unsettling to some, it doesn't bother me. Why? Because her wants will be congruent with how much she likes me, as in she won't mess around with other guys because she won't want to. But she can if she wants to.

If you are enabled and chosen, then you WILL be saved. God will use someone to get to you. If you aren't enabled and chosen, then you WON'T be saved. You just won't! You don't know who is enabled, who isn't.

Why does this make sense to me?

Skynes:
on my xanga (a long while back) I posted what you did. That you cannot have complete freewill and you cannot have God making every choice for you. Why? We are slaves to sin and God isn't amoral -- to put the points simplistically. So I gave a prepositional logic proof, in that you must have both freewill AND predestination TOGETHER or neither. Neither work by themselves.

Hence why I am taking the stance that we have and make choices, but not over morality/salvation. Because we were dead in our transgressons, but GOD made us alive in Christ. We couldn't do that part ourselves at all. And now we are no longer slaves to sin, but rather slaves to righteousness. That also doesn't sound like a real choice either.

NightCrawler:
I understsand what you're saying. What you posted makes sense to me EXCEPT for this: why would a loving God create people so that He could send them to hell? Why wouldn't He choose everyone for salvation?

These two beliefs conflict each other:
1. God is a loving God and loves His creation.
2. God chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, leaving no choice to the person.

That's my major problem with what you're saying. Either you believe that a) God will do whatever He pleases with no regard to His creation and that He'll bring to heaven only who He wants or b) God loves His creation and chooses those who choose Him, to go to heaven. You can't believe a) and believe that God loves us because then He wouldn't send us to hell without giving us a choice. It just doesn't make sense.

NightCrawler:
I understsand what you're saying. What you posted makes sense to me EXCEPT for this: why would a loving God create people so that He could send them to hell?

The point of mankind is a relationship with God, giving Him glory. The point of creation is to give God glory. Now, does God's justice in punishing sin also give Him glory?

Why wouldn't He choose everyone for salvation?

These two beliefs conflict each other:
1. God is a loving God and loves His creation.
2. God chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, leaving no choice to the person.

That's my major problem with what you're saying. Either you believe that a) God will do whatever He pleases with no regard to His creation and that He'll bring to heaven only who He wants or b) God loves His creation and chooses those who choose Him, to go to heaven. You can't believe a) and believe that God loves us because then He wouldn't send us to hell without giving us a choice. It just doesn't make sense.

Well, the reformed stance is that everyone is going to Hell and cannot save themselves by any means -- without God intervening. And then it isn't so much that God decides "I am going to screw over mankind" but rather "I am going to save some of these wretches, because I am loving and want to make my awesomeness known"

Difference being: We screw ourselves over by sinning, and God holds us accountable to it. But also God, in His mercy, demonstrates love and grace and saves some. And some, but not all, for a contrast and that His wrath may be brought forth and justice may be revealed. Which showing His mercy on wretches shows His glory (actively predestines some to be conformed to His Son), and bringing judgment on the unrighteous fulfills His holiness (active reprobation of sinners).

"Predestination and reprobation."

Why I believe this is more Biblically lined up is because I believe that God first and foremost seeks His own glory. Not man's, nor even requiring some approval of man. What is most important to God is God Himself. If you disagree, I'd say you have your perspective off. And I won't be surprised, I know many people that cannot accept the concept of God loving Himself more than a human.

Why I like the application of this stance is because
1) God is put in the perspective of an Almighty, loving God. Most important, and due all praise.
2) I don't need to worry, God's plans always succeed. He said that all things come together for those that love Him. God is in control.
3) I cannot take any credit for God's gift, any whatsoever. And all I can do instead is just praise Him day after day because He loves me, and that isn't because of something I did. He saved me because He is full of mercy and love. How great is He because He cancelled my debts!
4) No pride on my part, everything good is for and from God. At best, He uses me. It is a very humble stance before God.

I don't agree with number 3 either.

What I do think is that without God's intervention noone is capable of choosing Him.

The bible does that there are none who seek God, not even one (can't find location right now)It's in Romans, but it's from one person's point of view when they look at humanity. It's not from God's because I've already shown scripture that proves we can seek God. I can repost it if you like, but it would be easier to look at my previous posts.



As I said, I was exaggerating to its extreme.
If you follow the path that God is not sovereign and does not interfere with mens choices, then the ultimate place you end up at is that everything IS on us.

If Man's free will is all there is to salvation, then we can lose and gain salvation multiple times IN ONE DAY.
Back and forth, in and out.
Utterly pointless and fruitless.
If we cannot be sure of God's sovereignty in our lives, then we can never be sure of our salvation, so you live in fear till you die.

I agree with your position, I following both sides to their extreme.

Which is why I think Predestination and Free Will BOTH play a role in man's salvation.I noticed that you said you took the extremes after I submitted it. I didn't take the time to change it.

That's why free will isn't the only thing. The salvation is up to God, not man, it's man's responsibility to accept that salvation.

What part of 'almighty supreme sovereign God' didn't you understand? :P Can you show me in scripture where God is a dictator.


It didn't say that it was ENTIRELY God's will, or that it is the ONLY thing that God wants.Then what are you saying if it's not entirely God's will then who's will?


An open heart? Okay, maybe there is some misunderstanding. If God changes your heart, then He changes your desires/will/etc. Thus my point. God makes your will His, so while you still have a 'freewill', it isn't something borne of your fleshly nature, but rather purely from God via the Holy Spirit's intervention. As in, you have a choice, but God made it for you because He knows what is best for you.

I'll address evangelism soon.Once again you haven't proven this to be the case.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 Truly He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also who is raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

This passage should answer the predestination debate. A few points.
1. All of mankind was predestined for heaven, because God forknew all people, and the verse says those He knew He predestined.
2. Sin enters the picture. Man rejects his destiny. God provides a way out in Christ, who justifies those who chooseto accept Him.
3. There should be no debate over free will. Adam and Eve were given it from the beginning, and we all have it. God did not doom anyone to hell except those who reject their own destiny. Now, does He know what choice we will make? Of course! To say otherwise denies His omniscience. However, the choice which God knows you will make lies in your hands. If God made your desicion for you, what glory would it bring Him? None, whatsoever. God receives honor when we choose Him over Hell.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 Truly He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also who is raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

This passage should answer the predestination debate. A few points.
1. All of mankind was predestined for heaven, because God forknew all people, and the verse says those He knew He predestined.
2. Sin enters the picture. Man rejects his destiny. God provides a way out in Christ, who justifies those who chooseto accept Him.
3. There should be no debate over free will. Adam and Eve were given it from the beginning, and we all have it. God did not doom anyone to hell except those who reject their own destiny. Now, does He know what choice we will make? Of course! To say otherwise denies His omniscience. However, the choice which God knows you will make lies in your hands. If God made your desicion for you, what glory would it bring Him? None, whatsoever. God receives honor when we choose Him over Hell.
Amen:afro: I just wanted to use that smily.

I'm done arguing with you Michael.

I'm done arguing with you Michael.That's okay. Whatever you wish to do. It's been a sharpening experience.

heres my view on this whole topic.

alright so God creates man in his image with a free will and he can do whatever he pleases. but see at this point man knows no evil, so how can he sin? he literally cant. then this little dude known as satan comes into the garden and decieves eve into disobeying God. so there you go, mankind sins for the first time and his mind is opened to sin. free will was always there but sin was not because God made mankind perfect in his image. Gods intention was never to make mankind a sinning people, they chose that path. and here we are now. we have a choice. we can say, "you know what i dont care about God" and live our lives carefree without the thought of consequence or we can live our lives to the fullest with the free will to choose God and praise him for the chance to even be in heaven with him. God's pretty nice to allow us to live with him, and no God doesnt send people to hell. cause see God gives us a choice. we can serve him in all his glory or we can blow him off. theres a consequence to the second one but thats our "choice."

So then why did Paul say that we don't control our destinies in his letters, most obviously in Ephesians and Romans? ... and in addition, ...what do you think about its context? Was it that only Adam and Eve that didn't control their destinies, or was it everyone? (he wrote the letters in the second half of the first century AD)

it says all over the Bible that God is a sovereign God. of course God loves us more than anything we can imagine, but He is still God and He can do anything that He knows is right. take for instance, the story of Moses and the Israelites. every time Moses would approach Pharaoh and ask to let his people go, God would harden Pharaoh's heart. also take for instance Judas in the New Testament. Was it God's Will for Judas to betray Jesus? What if Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus? Then Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross and God's whole plan would've been screwed up. So all i'm trying to say is, don't think that you can know how God thinks and how He makes decisions. He is a sovereign God and He has the power to anything you can imagine. If He wants to, He can harden someone's heart or do whatever, it's all according to His will.

I don't really know the point you're trying to make. Are you saying this in support of the predestination doctrine or against it?

I don't really know the point you're trying to make. Are you saying this in support of the predestination doctrine or against it?
well there must be some truth in it... seeing how God "predestined" the Pharaoh's heart to be hardened in Moses time. and how it was predestined that Judas would be Jesus' betrayer.

I think this subject can baffle the human, finite mind to an extent. My argument was we have free choice, but God knows what choice we will make. Though I believe this, it still hurts my head to try and wrap my mind around it. After all, if He knows what choice I am going to make, how is it free will? Mainly because God does not force us to accept our destiny. If this were the case, would not all be saved. If God was deciding who would accept Him and who would not, and He desires that none should perish, would Christ have even been necessary? Christ was necessary because God knew ahead of time who would accept Him. He just paved the way for us.

agggggggghhhhhhhh

If I knew what you were doing, it doesn't affect your 'free will' one bit. How is it different with God knowing ahead of time?

God saves those He will. He will have compassion on those He will have compassion, and mercy likewise. Apart from this, everyone is going to Hell by his own doing.

Christ is necessary whether we have free will or not, for there must have been some atoning sacrifice regardless, for sin must be paid for (no exceptions!).

agggggggghhhhhhhh

If I knew what you were doing, it doesn't affect your 'free will' one bit. How is it different with God knowing ahead of time?

God saves those He will. He will have compassion on those He will have compassion, and mercy likewise. Apart from this, everyone is going to Hell by his own doing.

Christ is necessary whether we have free will or not, for there must have been some atoning sacrifice regardless, for sin must be paid for (no exceptions!).
i agree with you completely.

Actually, I agree with you. Perhaps I was unclear in my post. The only thing about predestination that I disagree with is the idea that, even if someone accepts Christ, God has already determined who will go to heaven and who will not, so it does not matter. Christ died for all, so anyone can be saved. What I was saying in my last post was not that GOD knowing our choice nullifies Christ. I was saying that if our choice was forced upon us, that would nullify the need for Christ. Why would Christ have died for those His Father was forcing to come to Him? That is my problem with a Calvinistic idea of salvation, that Christ died for a few elect and not for all. Honestly, I think this idea causes alot of pain and division. I know my cousin, who ascribes to the Calvinistic view, worries whether her children are apart of the "elect" or not, and I want to get it into her head that if she raises her children right, and they receive Christ, then they are. As are all who accept Christ.

Actually, I agree with you. Perhaps I was unclear in my post. The only thing about predestination that I disagree with is the idea that, even if someone accepts Christ, God has already determined who will go to heaven and who will not, so it does not matter. Christ died for all, so anyone can be saved. What I was saying in my last post was not that GOD knowing our choice nullifies Christ. I was saying that if our choice was forced upon us, that would nullify the need for Christ. Why would Christ have died for those His Father was forcing to come to Him? That is my problem with a Calvinistic idea of salvation, that Christ died for a few elect and not for all. Honestly, I think this idea causes alot of pain and division. I know my cousin, who ascribes to the Calvinistic view, worries whether her children are apart of the "elect" or not, and I want to get it into her head that if she raises her children right, and they receive Christ, then they are. As are all who accept Christ.
yeah i know where you're coming from. that's been on my mind as well. like i said earlier, God baffles the human mind and we don't really understand why He does some things, but whatever His word is, goes. and i like what night crawler said.....whether we have free will or not, all sin must be paid for...that's why Christ was necessary.

heres my view on this whole topic.

alright so God creates man in his image with a free will and he can do whatever he pleases. but see at this point man knows no evil, so how can he sin? he literally cant.
Just because man has not yet sinned doesn't not mean he cannot. i have never played cricket before, but that does not mean i cannot play it. Explain the rules (as God did to Adam and Eve when he said "Don't eat of this tree") and i'll be able to play the game.

God's pretty nice to allow us to live with him, and no God doesnt send people to hell. cause see God gives us a choice. we can serve him in all his glory or we can blow him off. theres a consequence to the second one but thats our "choice."
Actually, God does send people to hell. It talks of God as Judge and a number of examples in the Bible of him acting as such (Jesus tells a parable of the separting of the sheep from the goats, and another of people standing before the throne as God asks "Where where you when i was hungry? Thirsty? In prison?..."). So if he is a Judge, then yes, he does send people to hell. They actions may have "forced his hand" but he was the one who banged the gavel and directed the sentence.

I don't really look at it that way. I don't see it as "God sending people to hell". I see it this way. God takes His own into heaven. God can't have sin in His presence and therefore doesn't take sinners into heaven. Satan takes his own into hell. We're born into a sin nature and already destined for hell until Christ comes into our life.

God is a judge of mankind. He will say to those who do not believe in His Son - Go to the lake of fire prepared for the devil and His Angels.

Jesus will say - Away from me, practicers of lawlessness, I never knew you.

Like it or not. God WILL send people to hell, we may have born with that destination ahead of us, but we all have a chance to change course, those who refuse will be judged for their sins.


Please don't underestimate how serious sin is to God.

Because of one single bit of fruit, Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden and cursed to die. the whole creation cursed to die because of it.

Due to sin, God flooded the ENTIRE ancient world, killing all but Noah and his family.

Due to sin, God annihilated Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's wife died too for looking back.

And due to sin, God is going to cast all sin and death into hell for eternity.

The bible says the word 'cursed' a lot. The best definition I heard of it was:

The last thing you hear when you are cast into hell, is the entirety of creation applauding God's judgement for having rid the world of you.


"God not sending people to hell" is a nicey nicey way to look at it. But entirely unbiblical.

I don't really look at it that way. I don't see it as "God sending people to hell". I see it this way. God takes His own into heaven. God can't have sin in His presence and therefore doesn't take sinners into heaven. Satan takes his own into hell. We're born into a sin nature and already destined for hell until Christ comes into our life.
well it doesn't really matter which way you look at it...God is the Judge.

God is a judge of mankind. He will say to those who do not believe in His Son - Go to the lake of fire prepared for the devil and His Angels.

Jesus will say - Away from me, practicers of lawlessness, I never knew you.

Like it or not. God WILL send people to hell, we may have born with that destination ahead of us, but we all have a chance to change course, those who refuse will be judged for their sins.


Please don't underestimate how serious sin is to God.

Because of one single bit of fruit, Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden and cursed to die. the whole creation cursed to die because of it.

Due to sin, God flooded the ENTIRE ancient world, killing all but Noah and his family.

Due to sin, God annihilated Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's wife died too for looking back.

And due to sin, God is going to cast all sin and death into hell for eternity.

The bible says the word 'cursed' a lot. The best definition I heard of it was:

The last thing you hear when you are cast into hell, is the entirety of creation applauding God's judgement for having rid the world of you.


"God not sending people to hell" is a nicey nicey way to look at it. But entirely unbiblical.
i agree with you on everything there. people forget that God is a sovereign God. all you need to do is read Deutaronomy and Numbers to figure it out.

Instead of arguing about a little thing like "predestination", we should be out there telling others about his saving Son. God is probably laughing rite now at us and shaking his head at this thread.

ps- just a little thought....

Instead of arguing about a little thing like "predestination", we should be out there telling others about his saving Son. God is probably laughing rite now at us and shaking his head at this thread.

ps- just a little thought....
This thread is designed for those who would like to engage their minds in an abstract way.

If you think that there is an absolute tradeoff between arguing (keeping doctrine in check) and witnessing (spreading of doctrine), I'd disagree.

this is simple:God wants to save us all, it's just a matter of us wanting to be saved back.
But see...I know that if people really knew Jesus, knew Him as a person, they would like Him. He really does listen to people and does care about their problems.

I hate debating about causes. I like talking about people, and how they are, and react to things. I really do

Let's talk about people, then. How they would never choose God themselves and are wretched sinners. Everyone, saved and unsaved.

Or better yet, the wills of God.

God wanted me to be a strong disciple.
God wanted me to have extremely strong doubts, such that I would consider atheism.

They seem to contradict each other. But the more important one, that I become stronger than if I hadn't been so doubtful, trumps the necessary 'evil' of my doubt.

kinda like God working ALL things for good for those who love him?

I believe in predestination. But my view differs slightly from the normal.

God did predestine us to be with him. Simply cause that is why he created us. Then we messed up and then sin came. And we and God was seperate because of the sin in our beings.

Then Jesus came and again died for all this sin. Because of this, God could again enter and dwell with us. But there was still a problem.

It is God's destiny for all ppl to be with him. But we need to pay the price of letting our old man go.

The reason being that sin has a home in the old man. The old man cannot come into the Kingdom of God, cause wickedness cannot come into the Kingdom. And the root of sin dwells in the old man. It's origin dwells in the old man.

To destroy sin, the origin needs to be destroyed. So God already knows what to do. Every one who is willing and he will let be born again. In this way man can live again as he chooses from the new root that God will give him. So when someone believe, God put new Life in him. Something never seen before. A being with 2 roots in him. But God figured that out to. A being can only have 1 root. So something needed to be done with the old one.

But see the old one was really strong and it was under man's control and man sometimes didn't even know it was there, the reason being that man used this root to breath, and because of that, he couldn't see it, cause he was in it. This life was man's sinful life.

God had to kill this life, if he wanted man to come to him, but in so doing, he would have to kill man, cause killing man's life, would be killing man also. So God decided that he would share his life with man. So if man came willing God gave him a new life. Now God could take out the old life. And he did and because the new life, was the life of his son. He could put the old life into the new life of his Son. Then when the 2 got together, the old life was crucified and died.

Now everyone who comes to him, and calls upon his name is given the new life of His Son. And God chooses those who comes to him to share in a new Kingdom.

But parts of the old life is still broken off in man.(man held onto them) To destroy these, man must let his new life move over the old life, until the old life's dead wood is removed from him.

God chooses those who has faith. Many are called to believe, but only those who have faith are chosen.

^^^^^^^ YES YES YES!!!^^^^^^^