skynes
06-22-2006, 12:54 AM
Quoted from many places that I've seen:

To turn to Christ to escape hell is a selfish and wrong motive. We should turn to Christ because He is worthy of glory and praise and we should give it to Him.

To preach the Gospel to save souls from hell is a wrong motive, we should preach the Gospel because it is serving Christ and glorifying Him.




My response: Are we reading the same Bible here?


Have any of you ever heard this?

Starbucks5721
06-22-2006, 04:51 AM
I've never heard of any of that coming from the Bible. LOL And I'm Catholic.

However, I think I do kindof see the author's point in that saving souls and preventing ourselves from going to Hell IS a selfish motive for spreading the Gospel and living for Christ. Because in reality, in doing that, we are not serving God's higher purpose. We should be spreading God's love and living for Him out of sheer awe of what He's done for us. There shouldnt be any kind of motive behind it, other than wanting to bring as many people to Christ as we can. If I can spread the Gospel, and only save one person, I think that it would be worth it. But that's not my biggest reason to believe in God, you know?

Gotta run to work. More later :)

skynes
06-22-2006, 06:22 AM
I've never heard of any of that coming from the Bible. LOL And I'm Catholic.

However, I think I do kindof see the author's point in that saving souls and preventing ourselves from going to Hell IS a selfish motive for spreading the Gospel and living for Christ. Because in reality, in doing that, we are not serving God's higher purpose. We should be spreading God's love and living for Him out of sheer awe of what He's done for us. There shouldnt be any kind of motive behind it, other than wanting to bring as many people to Christ as we can. If I can spread the Gospel, and only save one person, I think that it would be worth it. But that's not my biggest reason to believe in God, you know?

Gotta run to work. More later :)

So... you're saying that saving people shouldn't be our goal but serving God's higher purpose...

Exactly what is this higher purpose?

unshakeable15
06-22-2006, 11:30 AM
The kingdom of heaven.

How many times did Jesus say "The kingdom of heaven is like..." when we spoke in parables? So often that they even have a term for them, kingdom parables.

i was actually thinking this just a couple minutes ago in another thread when a user was posting about wanting someone to be saved so they could spend eternity with Jesus. Good motive, and somewhat justified (in my mind) when the person is dying, but when the person is healthy, their motive should instead be for here and now instead of for the great beyond.

If your motive for following Christ is to spend eternity with him (which actually starts now, not later), then you lack the same motivation other followers do to help bring the kingdom of heaven onto earth. When Jesus spoke of the kingdom of heaven, he wasn't refering to something that is for later after we're dead, he was talking about something that lives in the hearts of his followers.

So, what that quote is saying is we should preach the good news, not to save people from hell, or even get them into heaven, but to help them recieve the kingdom for here and now, so they too can help bring about change in the world around us.

aliengurl7
06-22-2006, 11:39 AM
First off, we can't save anyone only Christ can but I think I see what they are talking about, it shouldn't be the only purpose to preach the gospel,"I won a soul, lets see if i can win another one" like its a pin ball machine game but to serve and glorify Christ. As for escaping hell being the wrong reason, isn't that what all of us are doing? were selfish by nature, we didn't accept Christ because we loved him but it was him who loved us first.

unshakeable15
06-22-2006, 11:55 AM
True, we don't save anybody, we just speak truth and pray their heart listens with their ears. (and if i implied that we can save anybody, i didn't mean to. i am constantly trying to remind myself and those around me about that fact.)

Maybe i became a Christian to get to heaven, or to escape hell, but it shouldn't be the motivation, definitely not our long-term motivation for staying on this narrow path. Using Jesus as fire-insurance is a poor reason to follow him.

aliengurl7
06-22-2006, 02:21 PM
Actually, I believe the fear of hell is what keeps us in check, because who wants to go down there? Without facing the consequences for our actions (hell) most of us would be living a life of sin and not be following Christ. Its also for me because I've fallen in love with Christ and who he is and got to know him on a personal level but having the fear of hell isn't such a bad thing either.

disciple
06-22-2006, 03:04 PM
I guess we should always ask ourselves what our motives are in Christ. I remember, I became a Christian to escape my own sin, to free my mind and the entirety of myself from evil. I wouldn't know what to call that kind of motivation.

theelectric3
06-22-2006, 04:24 PM
First off, we can't save anyone only Christ can but I think I see what they are talking about, it shouldn't be the only purpose to preach the gospel,"I won a soul, lets see if i can win another one" like its a pin ball machine game but to serve and glorify Christ. As for escaping hell being the wrong reason, isn't that what all of us are doing? were selfish by nature, we didn't accept Christ because we loved him but it was him who loved us first.

exactly. we cannot heal, save or deliver. only Christ can. but we can be witnesses of His love, walk in His love and truth as an outward expression of an inward change. Jesus told us to go into all the world and make disciples - which means, build relationships where the Love of Christ can manifest itself. or, allowing the goodness of God draw men and women to Christ. not persuasive words alone as in some debate.

i believe a life's actions speak louder than mere words and their definitions.

i believe these words of Oswald Chambers help put my thoughts and feelings together in a more coherent manner.

"Our Lord's first obedience was to do the will of His Father, not the needs of men; the saving of men was the natural outcome of His obedience to the Father.
If I am devoted to the cause of humanity only, I will soon be exhausted and come to a place where my love will falter; but if I love Jesus Christ personally and passionately, I can serve humanity though men treat me as a door-mat."

is my purpose to "get people saved" to make me look like a good Christian by doing all the "right" things...? or is it an outward expression of the Love i have received? as aliengurl17 quoted, we love because Christ first loved us.


perhaps this is what the author was trying to convey.

Starbucks5721
06-22-2006, 06:56 PM
Well, really, it's not like God is keeping tally marks of who and whom we do or do not lead to Christ.

Wanting to bring people closer to Christ is a really good thing to want, as is not wanting them to go to Hell. But we shouldnt make that our sole purpose for believing.

I've been Catholic all my life, and I am only now truly beginning to have an understanding of what a true relationship with the Lord is. Only in the last few years have I learned what it is to fall in love with my Savior. And it is one of the most fascinating, exciting, and terrifying things all in one. To learn the sheer magnitude of what being one of Christ's followers means is just incredible. It's not all about who goes to Hell and who doesn't, although that is an element involved. It's about a Father who risked His Son's life to save a race of people so unworthy. It's about the Son who gave up His life so that you and I could be a part of something so amazing.

skynes
06-23-2006, 12:25 AM
I'm sorry it seems I've caused some confusion.

What these people were saying is thus (same thing in different words):

Your original, first reason for turning to Christ, that very first moment should NOT be to escape hell but because you love Him and want to Glorify Him. You currently as a sinner should be focusing upon glorifying Christ and not the fear of hell (consequences for your actions)

When you speak to people about Christ, have them turn away from sin, and turn to God for salvation should NOT be your reason for preaching the Gospel. Your reason should be serving Christ and that only, nothing else. Any other reason is a BAD reason (including saving souls)

Are you able to say, Exact Quote: Jesus, even if you condemn me to hell for all eternity after I die, I want to glorify you with my entire life



Good motive, and somewhat justified (in my mind) when the person is dying, but when the person is healthy, their motive should instead be for here and now instead of for the great beyond.

Perfectly healthy guy, walks across street

WHAM, hit by bus. No more healthy guy; He pavement pizza, Sidewalk salami, bus butter.

Since we have no idea how much time we have left, shouldn't we treat each day as possibly someone's last?
Wouldn't that be justification for wanting people saved to be with Jesus?

Starbucks5721
06-23-2006, 07:46 PM
Are you able to say, Exact Quote: Jesus, even if you condemn me to hell for all eternity after I die, I want to glorify you with my entire life

You know, I think that has some definite validity. In all honesty, I think we ought to be able to say that. That would rather be the ultimate dying of self. But in reality, we won't have to, since He did it for us.

skynes
06-26-2006, 12:43 AM
You know, I think that has some definite validity. In all honesty, I think we ought to be able to say that. That would rather be the ultimate dying of self. But in reality, we won't have to, since He did it for us.

I'd say Christ's death on the cross is the ultimate dying of self.


I don't think there's any validity to it because it's a nonsensical statement, it makes no sense and has no Biblical support at all.

If you spend your life glorifying God then hell isn't your destination.
If hell is your destination, then you won't consider glorifying God.

It doesn't make any sense.

Starbucks5721
06-27-2006, 11:34 AM
Well, in all honest reality, we are sinners. Without Christ, we would be going straight to Hell for what we've done. My point was that since He already died for us, we no longer have to.

NightCrawler
07-05-2006, 11:24 PM
I think the statement is more "even if I don't get a personal reward, I will still do what is right in the Father's eyes and what is due Him".

Which is impossible for those perishing -- which I think is where Skynes says it is ridiculous.

drumchick101
07-07-2006, 12:19 PM
Ya, it negates a lot of things. Jesus lays out His purpose (and essentially ours) in Luke chapter 4 where Jesus opens the scrolls of Isaiah and reads;

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has annointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty to those who are oppresed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

This is our mission, our motive is love. Like was said, because He first loved us.

If we were to live by that saying we would only be doind empty works. So, actually the saying does negate 1 Corinthians 13:3:

"If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn't love others, I would be of no value whatsoever"

How can we love if we have not yet escaped our humanity (which can only be done after we esacpe hell)? The whole reason we can love is because we see that our escape from hell had such a great price that was already paid. Then we see how His love shapes and renews us everyday and that increases our "motive" to preach the gospel.

><sarah><

NightCrawler
07-08-2006, 08:46 PM
Just for reference, what translation of 1 Corinthians 13:3 is that?

drumchick101
07-11-2006, 12:12 PM
It's the new living translation.

><sarah><

DarkestRose
08-22-2006, 09:19 AM
I think the very heart of the debate is simply that we should love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and that we should love others as ourselves.

In that sense, one is dedicated to loving, serving, following and obeying God out of love. I believe faith is very much a journey and the heart evolved along the way. So when I was an elementary-school kid and accepted Jesus for the first time, I probably did have more motive to be saved. Now,I am hopelessly in love with Jesus. Thus, every day of mine, I am His and every day I tell Him so. I want to go deeper until all my fearful reverance, all my love and all my thirst lies in Him.

As for loving others, I think that should be our main reason for reaching out to others. If you love other people, you want them to know God since only He can fulfill them.

Gryphenix
09-04-2006, 06:10 PM
Interesting topic. I think that getting saved just to escape hell is not the point. What I mean is, we are not JUST escaping hell. We are escaping HELL. Eternal separation from the One who loves us more than anyone ever could. Torture beyond human reason. The mere fact that Christ unselfishly saved us from that leads to us honoring, glorifying, etc... How can we not when we know what we are rescued from.

skilletfreak101
09-04-2006, 06:46 PM
it kind of depends on your lifestyle...like if you say you're saved but then you live a totally sinful life or you ignore God...then your motive for Him is to just get you off the hook and get out of hell. the real meaning for getting "saved" is to give your life to God and live according to His plan.

skynes
09-05-2006, 01:41 AM
@Skilletfreak

You're not saved at all then. You never were.

I'm talking about someone, when given the Law of God and the knowledge of the future judgement, decides - I do not want to spend eternity in hell, so I'm going to accept this salvation!

Point was that some say this person is not saved, because their motivations were to escape hell, not to glorify God.

skilletfreak101
09-05-2006, 08:48 PM
@Skilletfreak

You're not saved at all then. You never were.

I'm talking about someone, when given the Law of God and the knowledge of the future judgement, decides - I do not want to spend eternity in hell, so I'm going to accept this salvation!

Point was that some say this person is not saved, because their motivations were to escape hell, not to glorify God.
yes i understand that...but what i'm trying to say is merely like...a person who doesn't care about God at all but says he's a christian merely just as an excuse to keep sinning and covering the sins up with forgiveness...that's not having a true heart. when you get saved, you throw away your old lifestyle and give your life to Jesus...that's pretty much the meaning of being "born again."

skynes
09-06-2006, 01:11 AM
No, you don't understand.

Someone who uses Christ in the way you describe does NOT understand the judgement to come, does NOT understand the holiness of God and does NOT understand the concept of Grace.

They're not saved at all.

I'm talking about someone genuinely broken before God , fearful of the wrath to come and turn to the Saviour to be redeemed.

Not someone who says - I accepted Christ, so I can sin all I want now!

Nedarbi
09-07-2006, 09:33 PM
i often remember hearing speakers from christian conferences and such saying that to be saved is completely unimportant and that being christian or religious is also unimportant. simply live your life for god, thats all he asks for.

i dont mean to say that people should bother becoming christians because thats totally not true. basically i think that you guys are stressing the "being saved" thing a little too much. being saved comes from the act of doing gods word. it means nothing to become a christian and live a sinful life.

unshakeable15
09-07-2006, 11:23 PM
basically i think that you guys are stressing the "being saved" thing a little too much. being saved comes from the act of doing gods word. it means nothing to become a christian and live a sinful life.
Careful. It's not about doing the work of God, nor is it simply believing that when you pray for Christ to guide your life that he will. C.S. Lewis said that putting works or faith over the other is like saying one blade of the scissors is more important.

"Being saved" does not come from doing God's word, doing good works, doing anything. "Being saved" does not come from believing that Christ is Lord and that he died for your sins and is willing to live in your heart. "Being saved" is about having enough faith to follow God where he leads.

Faith + Works = Heavenly Appointment

skynes
09-08-2006, 03:12 AM
what does the bible say?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.' Act 2:21

and on and on...

Everyone is STILL totally missing the point.

*sigh*

I am NOT talking about someone who comes to God for a get out of hell free card then goes and lives their life whatever way they want. They are NOT saved, at all, period. They have not understood and believed the Gospel. They are believing a deceptive lie.

I am talking about a true genuine Christian. Someone who truly believes and follows after God.
His original reason for asking Christ to save Him is not so He can show God love (which does come later), not so He can do God's Will (which also comes later)
BUT that he could escape the wrath of God which was to come.

What is the point of calling it 'salvation' if it has nothing to do with being saved from something?

I was asking you all what you thought of those Christians who turn to the believer I just described and say to him:

You are not a Christian, you are a son of Satan, because you did not turn to God to worship Him and serve Him, you turned to God out of a selfish evil desire to save your own skin.

Judging one persons salvation based upon NOT the fruit and evidences in their life, but their original motivation fur accepting Christ.

lamb_servant72
09-10-2006, 05:34 AM
I haven't posted here because I didn't understand exactly what you were asking...this thread jumped around alot!

What do I think of these people? I feel sorry for them. I pray that God will heal the wounds caused by their "witnessing" (snicker). I would guess that they think themselves mature Christians, but there is so much that they do not understand about God and how the people He created have different personalities (which brings about different motivations) for a reason.

Now, I'll leave it at that, even though I really want to say something about the top portion of your last post...I'll stay on topic for now. :)

Nedarbi
09-10-2006, 09:29 PM
Careful. It's not about doing the work of God, nor is it simply believing that when you pray for Christ to guide your life that he will. C.S. Lewis said that putting works or faith over the other is like saying one blade of the scissors is more important.

"Being saved" does not come from doing God's word, doing good works, doing anything. "Being saved" does not come from believing that Christ is Lord and that he died for your sins and is willing to live in your heart. "Being saved" is about having enough faith to follow God where he leads.

Faith + Works = Heavenly Appointment

if i'm not mistaken that is what i said before. maybe it came off the wrong way to you but what i was getting at was that doing gods work is key to salvation. and doing gods work requires faith. you said yourself quote "being saved" is about having enough faith to follow God where he leads quote. that is just a fancy was of saying what i said. maybe i should of described my thoughts a little better but in essence that is what i meant.

i still stand by what i said though. people are debating being saved down to the last detail when we all know that being saved is earned over time. no one in the world can say that they were instantly saved. why? because as humans we live our lives by the choices we make and those can be either for a good or bad purpose. god demands that we choose to follow in faith and support according to his plan for us. and our reward is slavation and glory in heaven for eternity. to put it short being saved needs to be earned through the coarse of your life. we are contantly under the microscope and our daily choices and long term choices will affect who we become in the eyes of the lord god.

skynes
09-11-2006, 12:52 AM
if i'm not mistaken that is what i said before. maybe it came off the wrong way to you but what i was getting at was that doing gods work is key to salvation. and doing gods work requires faith. you said yourself quote "being saved" is about having enough faith to follow God where he leads quote. that is just a fancy was of saying what i said. maybe i should of described my thoughts a little better but in essence that is what i meant.

i still stand by what i said though. people are debating being saved down to the last detail when we all know that being saved is earned over time. no one in the world can say that they were instantly saved. why? because as humans we live our lives by the choices we make and those can be either for a good or bad purpose. god demands that we choose to follow in faith and support according to his plan for us. and our reward is slavation and glory in heaven for eternity. to put it short being saved needs to be earned through the coarse of your life. we are contantly under the microscope and our daily choices and long term choices will affect who we become in the eyes of the lord god.


*cough* that's called Salvation through works and the Bible denies that entirely and utterly.

skynes
09-11-2006, 12:53 AM
if i'm not mistaken that is what i said before. maybe it came off the wrong way to you but what i was getting at was that doing gods work is key to salvation. and doing gods work requires faith. you said yourself quote "being saved" is about having enough faith to follow God where he leads quote. that is just a fancy was of saying what i said. maybe i should of described my thoughts a little better but in essence that is what i meant.

i still stand by what i said though. people are debating being saved down to the last detail when we all know that being saved is earned over time. no one in the world can say that they were instantly saved. why? because as humans we live our lives by the choices we make and those can be either for a good or bad purpose. god demands that we choose to follow in faith and support according to his plan for us. and our reward is slavation and glory in heaven for eternity. to put it short being saved needs to be earned through the coarse of your life. we are contantly under the microscope and our daily choices and long term choices will affect who we become in the eyes of the lord god.


*cough* that's called Salvation through works and the Bible denies that entirely and utterly.

If God used what you just described then not a single person on this forum is going to heaven and not a single person in all through time is going to heaven. We are all heading to hell because noone can live to God's standard.


as for the - we all know - bit. I think you'll find that virtually noone here will ascribe to that.

NightCrawler
09-11-2006, 11:11 AM
Wow, thanks Scottie.

skynes
09-11-2006, 11:36 AM
uhhh... what did I do? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious... lol

skilletfreak101
09-11-2006, 03:51 PM
if i'm not mistaken that is what i said before. maybe it came off the wrong way to you but what i was getting at was that doing gods work is key to salvation. and doing gods work requires faith. you said yourself quote "being saved" is about having enough faith to follow God where he leads quote. that is just a fancy was of saying what i said. maybe i should of described my thoughts a little better but in essence that is what i meant.

i still stand by what i said though. people are debating being saved down to the last detail when we all know that being saved is earned over time. no one in the world can say that they were instantly saved. why? because as humans we live our lives by the choices we make and those can be either for a good or bad purpose. god demands that we choose to follow in faith and support according to his plan for us. and our reward is slavation and glory in heaven for eternity. to put it short being saved needs to be earned through the coarse of your life. we are contantly under the microscope and our daily choices and long term choices will affect who we become in the eyes of the lord god.
umm wow...what Bible are you reading? if that's true than you obviously don't believe that Jesus died on the cross.

Grunge=Fun
09-14-2006, 07:26 PM
agreed with skilletfreak101. what kind of bible are you reading? God does not judge us upon what we do. its based on our motives. if your motives are to strive to be a rebel and you hate the works of God then i think something is very wrong. Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin and death. basically that means that our sins are paid off. crazy huh? that doesnt mean go sin and be merry. thats just saying that you can be in heaven debt free and God wont be looking at your past sins.

and the main topic starter, i think basically your original motives are to escape from eternal damnation because you truly do believe thats where you would end up going. people arent going to become a christian just because they feel like it, they've got a reason. but see this step is just the beginning, and then you strive towards God's works and grow in faith unless you arent very genuine :-\

skynes
09-15-2006, 09:07 AM
and the main topic starter, i think basically your original motives are to escape from eternal damnation because you truly do believe thats where you would end up going. people arent going to become a christian just because they feel like it, they've got a reason. but see this step is just the beginning, and then you strive towards God's works and grow in faith unless you arent very genuine :-\

thank you, you get my point.

Yes that's what I've been saying, the original motive for turning to Christ - escaping hell - is a perfectly valid one and should actually be the main one! Growing in Faith and works after that are for vastly different reasons.

NightCrawler
09-15-2006, 10:33 AM
uhhh... what did I do? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious... lol

I would suck if I were sarcastic on that matter. It is basic Biblical doctrine.