alorian
09-19-2006, 10:18 PM
I'm sure if I posted this asking "If you had a choice between following God's will and being arrested, or following man's will and and staying straight by the law, what would you do?" I'd get a bunch of responses like:

"YES I WOULD! I WOULD DIE IF I HAD TOO!"

But I want you to sit back and think about this. What if God was telling you to do something. What if this something could get you arrested, thrown in jail, or even prison? Would you do it? What if by not doing God's will you remain completely straight by the law, and there won't be any obvious bad consequences? Would you follow God's will, or would you just let it pass by and ask for forgiveness?

I implore you, think long and hard about this. What would you do?

planet_kosmos
09-19-2006, 11:52 PM
YES I WOULD! I WOULD DIE IF I HAD TOO!

What else is there worth living for besides Jesus?

skynes
09-20-2006, 02:11 AM
Put me into that situation first, then ask me.

I would like to say I would. But to be honest I don't know.
I'd probably resist at first, but then give in and just do it... but Im not sure.

lamb_servant72
09-20-2006, 02:31 AM
I would like to say I would, too. Sometimes I am strong, but, I have failed God before. I know I would feel guilty if I gave into man and failed God, and I would pray for a "redo"!

Someone once told me if God is using a situation to teach us something and we fail, it will come back around so He can teach us what we need to learn. Do you think this is true?

john316
09-20-2006, 03:01 AM
I really believe that its hard to tell what one would do until they are in that situation. You never know for sure how you would respond.

Like everyone else i hope I would choose standing up for God. The closest that I have ever been to that was this past spring when I left my job partly because I was being asked to do something I felt was wrong. God took care of me then so I see no reason why He would do the same in a situation like that.

Its really hard to say what would happen.

dawn of light
09-20-2006, 05:49 AM
I pretty much agree with everyone else. I'd like to think that I'd follow God and do His will no matter what but I'll never really know unless I'm in that situation. It also depends on what it was He was asking me to do and how convinced I was that it as His will.

agent_c68
09-20-2006, 12:38 PM
What exactly do you mean by "following God's will"? I know what it means in general, but what situation, other then government persecution of Christians, would we need to rebel? Iím not saying that I would not choose men over God, but we still need to honor and respect the government over us. There may be times that you need to go against your government, but not every disagreement between Christians, or Christian values, and government is an acceptable rebellion.

Romans 13:1-7
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

DustinRocks
09-20-2006, 01:40 PM
Look at Peter. Walkedon water then denied Christ. I wonder what I'd do?

skilletfreak101
09-20-2006, 01:58 PM
everyone should look at Paul's life when they tackle this subject. Paul's whole life after he got saved was pretty much persecution.

lamb_servant72
09-20-2006, 02:55 PM
Romans 13:1-7
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

What about Peter when he walked out of the jail in the middle of the night? The governing authority didn't want him to do that. God put the guards to sleep and opened the way for him.

The governing authorities didn't want Paul preaching Christianity.

This is one of those paradoxes that confuse me. Romans 13 is the Word of God. Why then did He have Peter, Paul, and others go against the governing authorities when the Word says we have to submit to them?

DustinRocks
09-20-2006, 09:04 PM
I'm not sure of the scripture but it says something along the liens of taking the punishment for the laws. I'll find it tommorrow.

NightCrawler
09-21-2006, 07:35 PM
I believe that if God put me in that position, He would test my faith prior to in order to stand firm in such a position.

Until then, I'd like to say I would, but as many others have said... I echo them in that I have not been in such a situation as of yet.

skilletfreak101
09-22-2006, 08:10 PM
YES I WOULD! I WOULD DIE IF I HAD TOO!

What else is there worth living for besides Jesus?
exactly. if your true desire is Jesus, and not the world...then what other choice would you make?

Spiffles
09-22-2006, 10:47 PM
I beleive if the situation came up that we would end up in jail because of God or us being a Christian, that God when we put our trust in him would equipe us to deal with it.
On our own strength, I would probably give up though. But the trick is to put our faith and trust in God.

"I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me" (cant rememebr the verse number sorry)

dawn of light
09-22-2006, 11:40 PM
Spiffles (and anyone else who wants to know) the verse is Philippians 4:13.

Spiffles
09-23-2006, 12:00 AM
thanks :)




(stupid have to add 10 characters is dumb in my personal oppinion but since i have to do it, it is how i justify this little rant so that i actually get the 10 characters)

NightCrawler
09-23-2006, 06:41 AM
...IF I HAD TO!*... Gosh, who else catch this?

(incorrect version: "I WOULD DIE IF I HAD ALSO!")

dawn of light
10-23-2006, 12:48 PM
I just thought of this.

Why can't we offer God a guarantee that we'll follow His will? Why can't we say "yes God I will do Your will, NO MATTER WHAT!"

We're not perfect but at least deciding beforehand what to do in a certain situation makes it a whole lot easier to follow through with it. If we can make promises to humans we should be able to make promises to God.

If we fail all we can do is ask for God's forgiveness and learn how to do better in the future.

I'd like to think that I'd follow God and do His will no matter what but I'll never really know unless I'm in that situation.
I don't think God was very impressed with that answer.

What would you (or I) think if your husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend said that to you in regards to cheating? "Sorry honey, I can't make any promises. I'll never know until I get the opportunity (or in that situation)."

I am making a decision to follow God's will in everything in my life with His strength not my own. If I fail, His grace is sufficient.

skynes
10-23-2006, 01:17 PM
If we can make promises to humans we should be able to make promises to God.

Would it not be much easier on everyone to not promise anything ever?

If we fail all we can do is ask for God's forgiveness and learn how to do better in the future.

What would you (or I) think if your husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend said that to you in regards to cheating? "Sorry honey, I can't make any promises. I'll never know until I get the opportunity (or in that situation)."

Honey I promise that I won't cheat on you, but if I do, all I can do is ask for your forgiveness.

Yes I seen a logical flaw.
Yes I pounced on it.
Yes I am in an evil mood.
*maniacal cackling*


----------

Ok so I decided to Edit to add something substantial.

Why can't we offer God a guarantee that we'll follow His will? Why can't we say "yes God I will do Your will, NO MATTER WHAT!"

Cause we suck. We're humans, due to being human we are guaranteed to screw up.
Why make a promise I KNOW I cannot ever keep? I know 100% that I cannot stay by God's Will. I will stray off, I will rebel, I will sin.
Due to that, why promise that I won't?
It's a silly thing to do.

I try to stray away from absolutes. Using terms like - I will always, or I will never, I tend to not use (see!? Even there I didn't say I'll never use them!)

Reason being - if you make a challenge like that, you WILL be tested on it. I want to avoid causing myself anymore grief than I do already.

So if I make the bold declaration of "I will follow God's Will NO MATTER WHAT!!" I can guarantee in the next week I will have a half dozen attacks to make me back down from that.

dawn of light
10-24-2006, 02:02 PM
Would it not be much easier on everyone to not promise anything ever?
Sure, it would also be much easier to live in your own little bubble and not care about anyone except yourself. You'd be hard pressed to get through life without making any promises. You couldn't get married (promise to stay faithful and committed to the relationship, etc.), you couldn't sign a business contract (promise to adhere to the contract), you couldn't borrow any money to buy a house or car (signing the loan papers would be a promise to repay the $), etc.

If we fail all we can do is ask for God's forgiveness and learn how to do better in the future.
Honey I promise that I won't cheat on you, but if I do, all I can do is ask for your forgiveness.
As you pointed out, we're humans and unfortunately we WILL fail. Maybe you have never failed in the area of murder but you've lied. Maybe you've never cheated on your significant other but you've hurt him/her in some other way. Really, all we can ever do when we mess up is ask for forgiveness, try to clean up the consequences, and learn how to do better in the future. It's about a committment to do everything you can do not to fail. It's about your heart and attitude towards doing God's will or in our metaphor, treating your spouse in a Godly way.

....I will stray off, I will rebel, I will sin. Due to that, why promise that I won't?
Is rejecting God's will any more a sin if you have promised that you wouldn't do it? No it's a sin either way. I'm talking about a committment to follow God's will rather than "oh, I'll have to see what happens, once I'm in that situation."

I try to stray away from absolutes. Using terms like - I will always, or I will never, I tend to not use them
I understand what you're saying. But I'd rather set high expectations for myself rather than to "see what happens". Because when someone doesn't have a committment to do the right thing at all times they'll be more likely to give in to their feelings at the time rather than do the right thing.

One more thing...
Yes I seen a logical flaw.
Yes I pounced on it.
Yes I am in an evil mood.
*maniacal cackling*

I SAW a grammer mistake. he he.

(I'm sure I have a grammer mistake or two but I'm hoping no one will notice)

as~i~lay~dying
10-24-2006, 09:18 PM
Like some others said ... put me in the situation, I think its impossible to knwo exactly what you would do, although at this point in my life I can say I definately would not.

skynes
10-25-2006, 01:49 AM
Sure, it would also be much easier to live in your own little bubble and not care about anyone except yourself. You'd be hard pressed to get through life without making any promises. You couldn't get married (promise to stay faithful and committed to the relationship, etc.), you couldn't sign a business contract (promise to adhere to the contract), you couldn't borrow any money to buy a house or car (signing the loan papers would be a promise to repay the $), etc.

The Bible says not to swear by anything, let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.

I stand by that fully. So rarely will you see me 'promise' anything (unless as you stated, contracts etc.) because I let my words and actions speak for me. If I say - I Will do this, it means I will do that.



As you pointed out, we're humans and unfortunately we WILL fail. Maybe you have never failed in the area of murder but you've lied. Maybe you've never cheated on your significant other but you've hurt him/her in some other way. Really, all we can ever do when we mess up is ask for forgiveness, try to clean up the consequences, and learn how to do better in the future. It's about a committment to do everything you can do not to fail. It's about your heart and attitude towards doing God's will or in our metaphor, treating your spouse in a Godly way.

And? I can make all the commitments I want but that's not the focus here.

I might be able to keep a promise in being at a certain place at a certain time, but when it comes to staying 100% by God without faltering 1% my entire life... are two entirely different things.

I won't promise or say that I will be 100% for God, because I know I can't do that. IF I do promise (emphasis on If), I will promise something I KNOW I can do. I will still try and be 100% for God and I will still repent when I mess up, but I won't promise that I'll do better next time, cause I know I can't keep that promise.

Is rejecting God's will any more a sin if you have promised that you wouldn't do it? No it's a sin either way. I'm talking about a committment to follow God's will rather than "oh, I'll have to see what happens, once I'm in that situation."

To promise and fail - two sins, lying and disobedience

to not promise and fail - one sin, disobedience

So yeah it is different.


I understand what you're saying. But I'd rather set high expectations for myself rather than to "see what happens". Because when someone doesn't have a committment to do the right thing at all times they'll be more likely to give in to their feelings at the time rather than do the right thing.

Anyone who knows me well, knows that the expectations I set for myself are beyond what any human can reach.

Commitment != promise (!= means Does not Equal)

I have a commitment to stand by Christ continually.
I do not have a promise to stand by Him.

I will not make a promise that I cannot keep. To stand by Him continually is something I am unable to do.


One more thing...

I SAW a grammer mistake. he he.

(I'm sure I have a grammer mistake or two but I'm hoping no one will notice)

You probably did, but Unshakeable is our resident Grammar Nazi, not me. I failed English after all.

Spiffles
10-25-2006, 03:25 AM
Commitment != promise (!= means Does not Equal)

I have a commitment to stand by Christ continually.
I do not have a promise to stand by Him.



According to the dictonary, your wrong.. A commitment is a promise (therefore it equals a promise as they are the same thing)

com‧mit‧ment  /kəˈmɪtmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuh-mit-muhnt]
Ėnoun
1. the act of committing.
2. the state of being committed.
3. the act of committing, pledging, or engaging oneself.
4. a pledge or promise; obligation.

dawn of light
10-25-2006, 05:43 AM
The Bible says not to swear by anything, let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.
Exactly. That's why I'm saying "YES, God I will follow You." Not "maybe, I'll do what you want God, it depends on how strong I am at the time."

Anyone who knows me well, knows that the expectations I set for myself are beyond what any human can reach.
I wasn't accusing you of having low expectations of yourself. I wouldn't do that, I only know you from what you post on ph.org. I was telling you my stance and giving a general example.

In my books, a promise and a committment is the same thing.

unshakeable15
10-25-2006, 12:58 PM
You probably did, but Unshakeable is our resident Grammar Nazi, not me. I failed English after all.
Should i put that in my sig? ;)

The dictionary may say that "promise" and "commit" mean the same thing (even then, it doesn't, really. Each word has it's own individualized meaning). But the beauty and horror of language is that when one person says "commitment" it has a certain flair for them that the person hearing the word "commitment" does not have.

For Scott, to split the two is to draw a line in the sand to describe what he means. He obviously has to make some sort of pledge to God, otherwise he would not be following God. But he doesn't want to be like so many Christians (myself included in that) that make a promise to God only to add guilt to their conscience when they fail that promise. i think it even says in the Bible (i have no clue where, so don't ask; if someone can find it, you get mucho puntos from me), God would prefer you not to make a vow than to make one and break it.

(If what i said does not fit with what you meant, Scott, you have every right to verbally abuse me. :))

Personally, when i say "I hope i would say 'Kill me' or 'Stick me in jail' rather than renounce my faith, but i don't really know for sure," i don't say it as a way to cop-out from actually following God or pledging my life for him, even through all the tough times, but i say it because i honestly cannot know what i will do. For me to say "Yes, i will follow God no matter what" would be for me to say "I know the emotionally and spiritual state i will be in from now until the day i die, so i know i will make a decision i will not regret later."

Because if i did choose denouncation over jail or death, i would regret it later. But that doesn't mean i won't choose it, just as it doesn't mean i will choose it. There's simply no way to know.

theelectric3
10-25-2006, 01:35 PM
i think no one can really answer this question with 100% accuracy when we are comfortable...

i think the best way to test our heart is to consider this: are we obeying God in what He is telling us to do now? because if we aren't obeying Him now when our lives aren't threatened... who's to say we will when the pressure is on and our natural reaction is to save one's self?

kittygirl
10-25-2006, 02:47 PM
For the time being, now that I'm in America, I am pretty sure that the law will make me do something that would comprimise my faith.

If I was in China, or another Communist country, than I would say yes, I certainly would break the law if it meant following God.

skynes
10-26-2006, 12:43 AM
For Scott, to split the two is to draw a line in the sand to describe what he means. He obviously has to make some sort of pledge to God, otherwise he would not be following God. But he doesn't want to be like so many Christians (myself included in that) that make a promise to God only to add guilt to their conscience when they fail that promise. i think it even says in the Bible (i have no clue where, so don't ask; if someone can find it, you get mucho puntos from me), God would prefer you not to make a vow than to make one and break it.

(If what i said does not fit with what you meant, Scott, you have every right to verbally abuse me. :))


You got it right. that's my stance on it.

Should i put that in my sig? ;)

Oh hell yes!

Unshakeable - Panheads Official Grammar Nazi.

I wasn't accusing you of having low expectations of yourself. I wouldn't do that, I only know you from what you post on ph.org. I was telling you my stance and giving a general example.

Oh I knew what you were doing, I was just stating that I'm doing a "See how my feelings take me" approach, that I DO take this seriously, and I seriously don't know what my response would be!

dawn of light
10-30-2006, 08:41 AM
I personally would rather be led by the Holy Spirit than by my feelings. This isn't a claim to know the future or that I'm perfect. But I will set my mind on the things of the Holy Spirit and therefore be led by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:5 (Amplified)
For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the Holy Spirit.

skynes
10-30-2006, 09:51 AM
I personally would rather be led by the Holy Spirit than by my feelings. This isn't a claim to know the future or that I'm perfect. But I will set my mind on the things of the Holy Spirit and therefore be led by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:5 (Amplified)
For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the Holy Spirit.

You know that verse is a comparison of the thinking of a believer to an unbeliever. Most of the early chunk of Romans 8 is comparing a believer to an unbeliever.

I know what you're saying, but have a peek at it from my point of view.
-------------------------

Words are far more powerful than people today give them credit for.

One of my objectives in life is that when I say something, I do not need something greater to back it up, for the very fact that it was ME who said it gives it validity. What I mean is that I want people to take me at my word. If I say Yes, I mean Yes, if I say No I mean No.

Now if I say - I will stand by God 100% all the time...

...I am going to fail that, probably the very same day. So I won't say that, by saying it and then breaking it, makes my word worth less.

I will instead say, in all honesty - I would like to stand by God 100%, but I know I won't. I cannot forsee in advance how I will react in a given situation, I will just say that I aim to please God, and when, not if, I screw up, I will repent of it and try again.


So really it's not that I'm going by my feelings and not by God. It's the extreme opposite! That I SO much want to go by God that I won't let my words or my emotions (that "yes God I can do it" feeling that we sometimes get) make me lie and make false promises.

Tromos
10-30-2006, 10:17 AM
I guess if I felt that way, I'd think I was awfully dependent on my own strength. I have no strength. The honor is not mine. My truth is not mine to boast about. It's only in my weakness that I am made great through Jesus. It's only when I admit that I have nothing and am nothing that I gain everything.

What is a promise, any promise, made by a human but an opportunity to show how frail and weak we really are?

I see where you're going with this train, skynes. I just wonder if you've taken it far enough. You seem to give your word a lot of credit. You clearly have a lot more control over your life than I do.

dawn of light
10-30-2006, 10:29 AM
I would like to stand by God 100%, but I know I won't. I cannot forsee in advance how I will react in a given situation, I will just say that I aim to please God, and when, not if, I screw up, I will repent of it and try again.
I kind of get the feeling we're both pretty much saying the same thing but using different wording and somehow we're misinterpreting each other.

....I was just stating that I'm doing a "See how my feelings take me" approach....
See, I took this to mean the opposite of being led by the Spirit.
...So really it's not that I'm going by my feelings and not by God....
I'm not going to be mean here and say that you just contradicted yourself because I think that what you meant was that you're going to follow God as best you can but sometimes you fail and follow your feelings because you're human.

Philippians says I can all things through Christ who gives me strength and Romans also says those who set their mind on the Spirit will be led by the Spirit. So what I'm saying is that I will trust God to get me through the tough situations that I would obviously fail on my own. I can't remember the reference but I recall a verse that says that God won't allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. So I believe that through God I am capable of following His will every time, but whether I will actually do it is the question. But to say "we'll see what happens when I get there" seems like such a weak, uncommitted statement.

skynes
10-30-2006, 11:36 AM
I kind of get the feeling we're both pretty much saying the same thing but using different wording and somehow we're misinterpreting each other.


See, I took this to mean the opposite of being led by the Spirit.

I'm not going to be mean here and say that you just contradicted yourself because I think that what you meant was that you're going to follow God as best you can but sometimes you fail and follow your feelings because you're human.

Philippians says I can all things through Christ who gives me strength and Romans also says those who set their mind on the Spirit will be led by the Spirit. So what I'm saying is that I will trust God to get me through the tough situations that I would obviously fail on my own. I can't remember the reference but I recall a verse that says that God won't allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. So I believe that through God I am capable of following His will every time, but whether I will actually do it is the question. But to say "we'll see what happens when I get there" seems like such a weak, uncommitted statement.

I think this is an example of my fingers typing faster than my brain can think... or the other way around.

BOTH quotes should say - I am NOT going by my feelings.

Typo, lol.

I can't remember the reference but I recall a verse that says that God won't allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear.

1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. "

Off topic:
This verse gets thrown around a lot in churches, they always leave the last bit off - but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I find it interesting that it states only THE way, not many ways, or weak temptations. but essentially saying there is a single escape from temptation, if you do not take that way then you WILL be overwhelmed.

dawn of light
10-30-2006, 11:41 AM
Yeah, there is only one way to get overcome temptation. RUN!

skynes
11-05-2006, 10:36 PM
Ecclesiastes 5: 4-5

"When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it; For He has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you have vowed--

Better not to vow than to vow and not pay."

...and thus we have God's view on the topic.

Mike I expect those muchos puntos to be in the mail ;)

unshakeable15
11-08-2006, 02:21 PM
Good verse.

(Does email count? :) i can't pay the overseas postage; i'm poor.)