NightCrawler
09-21-2006, 07:50 PM
Pre-incarnate Christs?

Who believes this? I am pretty sure my old youth pastor did, and I would not be surprised if many other current authorities in my church.

FYI:
A Theopany is Jesus Christ in the flesh before He was born, as in concordence with His ability to transcend time. Examples: Jacob wrestles with God, the man* with Daniel's friends in the furnace, etc.

Daniel 3:25
"'...and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.'"

amodman
09-21-2006, 11:13 PM
He somehow had to be within the trappings of mortal flesh and form to appear in these ways?

NightCrawler
09-22-2006, 02:03 PM
Well, technically it could be that when He ascended, He started going back in time and fulfilling events like appearing with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo. This is possible only because God can transcend time and space.

amodman
09-22-2006, 03:30 PM
Well, technically it could be that when He ascended, He started going back in time and fulfilling events like appearing with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo. This is possible only because God can transcend time and space.

We obviously believe different things. If you look on my thoughts of time and God, know that I believe Christ to be of the exacts same essence as God (duh), and thus wouldn't need to "time travel." He's been around since probably before the Creation. I really don't know what you're trying to get at here.

aliengurl7
09-22-2006, 05:19 PM
Well, technically it could be that when He ascended, He started going back in time and fulfilling events like appearing with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo. This is possible only because God can transcend time and space.


Oh I get it! You mean like that movie "Back to the future"... uh, no.;)

"Sons of God" can mean angels. I don't believe Jesus was in the flesh at that time and traveled backwards to fullfill these events.

skilletfreak101
09-22-2006, 07:47 PM
Jesus Christ was always around in the spiritual realm. in Genesis it talks about Moses going to sacrifice his son and the "Angel of the Lord" saying "Stop! God has already provided a sacrifice." who do you think that angel of the Lord is?

aliengurl7
09-22-2006, 07:53 PM
Um... an angel maybe? It sure wasn't Jesus. btw, It was Abraham not Moses who was going to sacrifice his son. Jesus isn't an angel but he is God.

skilletfreak101
09-22-2006, 08:02 PM
Um... an angel maybe? It sure wasn't Jesus. btw, It was Abraham not Moses who was going to sacrifice his son. Jesus isn't an angel but he is God.
yes he is God, but he was also a human. remember that? of course he was God in the flesh, but he was still a human being. and when the Bible says, "The Angel of the Lord," that's being kind of specific. why not just say, "an angel of the Lord"? because they were being specific about something. you really need to take the Bible into context and find out what it really is saying. Abraham (hahaha sorry i said moses) sacrificing his son was a symbol of God sacrificing his only son.

aliengurl7
09-22-2006, 08:09 PM
The point is that Jesus is neither "The angel of the Lord" or "an angel of the Lord" he is the Lord. He would come as himself not an angelic being. He wasn't a human being at that point, that didn't happen till Mary gave birth and he was still God.

skilletfreak101
09-22-2006, 08:15 PM
The point is that Jesus is neither "The angel of the Lord" or "an angel of the Lord" he is the Lord. He would come as himself not an angelic being. He wasn't a human being at that point, that didn't happen till Mary gave birth and he was still God.
yes He was God, but He was also the Son of God and always was because in the Bible (John 3:16) it says that He gave his only son...so Jesus was always around in some form or another.

aliengurl7
09-22-2006, 08:32 PM
He was spirit like Father God and the Holy Ghost. He was not a human or an angel. He did not take on a form until he became human. He was the Word that was with God and was God in the beginning and became the "Son Of God" through man at his birth.

amodman
09-22-2006, 08:39 PM
Josh...Michelle...our entire reality is in existence through and by God. He can appear to us however he wishes in a way our minds can comprehend. He nor Christ is a "Spirit" watching over existence. He is existence. If there's a question of our being not being through Christ himself -

"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence." - Colossians 1:15-18 in reference to Christ by Paul.

aliengurl7
09-22-2006, 08:54 PM
Why would God choose mutiple idenities to reveal himself to us? God is spirit. Joh 4:24 " God is a spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth". They do watch over us outside of the time realm. Jesus only has one form and that is the apperance of the invisible God. When he returns he will return with the same body as he died with, not an angel's body or anything else.

skilletfreak101
09-23-2006, 06:00 AM
Josh...Michelle...our entire reality is in existence through and by God. He can appear to us however he wishes in a way our minds can comprehend. He nor Christ is a "Spirit" watching over existence. He is existence. If there's a question of our being not being through Christ himself -

"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence." - Colossians 1:15-18 in reference to Christ by Paul.
yeah dude you are right. God can reveal himself to us any way he wants. God has the power to do anything in the world...we can't really understand with our finite minds, but all we need to do is believe and trust in God

NightCrawler
09-23-2006, 06:32 AM
We obviously believe different things. If you look on my thoughts of time and God, know that I believe Christ to be of the exacts same essence as God (duh), and thus wouldn't need to "time travel." He's been around since probably before the Creation. I really don't know what you're trying to get at here.
I guess I should've worded it more like "God transcends all time" not "God can transcend time."

NightCrawler
09-23-2006, 06:33 AM
Genesis 30:
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [e] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, [f] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

aliengurl7
09-23-2006, 06:01 PM
In the womb he grasped his brother's heel; as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. (Hosea 12:3,4)

This is speaking of Jacob and his encounter with the angel spoken of in genesis. Angels represented God in that time. And no the angel wasn't Jesus but an angelic being.

skynes
09-24-2006, 01:45 AM
Angel literally means messenger. It doesn't always have to mean Angelic being.

Jesus DID show up in the OT. The Angel of the LORD was Jesus, not He did not have flesh and skin and blood like the rest of us because He wasn't born into yet. But He could take on a physical form.

Judges 13 is a perfect example.

18: And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"

Wonderful is a name of Christ.

22:And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!"
23: But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time."

After the Angel left they both realise it was God they had just seen and spoken to, that it was God who had show them those things.


So to make it clear:

I do not believe in a pre-incarnate Christ. Christ was only a human born in the flesh when He was born in Bethlehem. Before that He was a spiritual being like His Father.
Like angels however, He could appear in a physical form.

the angel of the Lord, literally means THE Messenger of the Lord.
We know from the Prophets that Jesus was God's messenger as He would come with good news.

When he returns he will return with the same body as he died with, not an angel's body or anything else.

Does it not say Jesus returns with His glorified body? The same kind of body we're gonna get at the resurrection?
Personally I don't particularly want my old body back... hayfever, allergies and all myriad of things that ail me continually I can live without.

aliengurl7
09-24-2006, 04:08 PM
It can mean both.

Angels are messengers of God.

mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.


Jdg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel4397 of the LORD, What is thy name, that when3588 thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honor?3513
Jdg 13:18 And the angel4397 of the LORD3068 said unto him, Why askest thou thus2088 after my name,8034 seeing it is secret?

In the translation im using (KJV), it says the angel kept his name a secret. Which makes sense because the angels wouldn't give out their names because people would worship them. Another thing, If it was Jesus then why didn't the angel accept the burnt offering, instead he told Manoah to offer it to the Lord? When Christ and the Father are one and the same.

Jdg 13:16 "And the angel4397 of the LORD3068 said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering,5930 thou must offer it unto the LORD." For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.

The Angel of the LORD was Jesus

How do you know there weren't more than one "angels of the Lord"?
In judges it speaks of one but there could have been many.

Back in the day, kings would often appoint emissaries that spoke on their behalf and with their authority. For example, God commonly appointed prophets to speak on his behalf. Often these prophets spoke as if they were God, proclaiming such things as “I am the Lord” ( Lev. 18:2; 19:2-3).

It isn't unreasonable to think that the angel of the Lord was a non-divine being who sometimes spoke in this manner. Angels are representives of God, they spoke on the behalf of God just like emissaries spoke on the behalf of kings.

There's absolutely no reason for the biblical writers to speak so cryptically as to refer to a physical manifestation of God as a “messenger” or “angel” rather than describing him plainly as "God." I believe if God wants to show himself he would show himself as God, not as anything else.


We know from the Prophets that Jesus was God's messenger as He would come with good news.

Jesus is the "Living Word" not just a messenger. He is the WORD of God. When he speaks he speaks things into existence not just sending a message like angels or prophets. He is more than just a messager of God, he is God. He is God's spoken word.

Does it not say Jesus returns with His glorified body? The same kind of body we're gonna get at the resurrection?
Jesus is coming back with his robe dipped in blood and with the nail puncture wounds in his hands. Its his glorified resurrected body he died in that he'll return in at the second coming.

skynes
09-25-2006, 10:23 AM
Why did Samson's parents freak and fear death if all they saw was an Angel? they were certain they had seen God.

Also
Moses...

Bible says God spoke with Moses as to a friend, face to face. then a few verses down God says no man can see my face and live.

Problem there methinks? If Moses was speaking to Jesus there is no problem, if he was speaking to the Father, big problem.

How do you know there weren't more than one "angels of the Lord"?


there are many angels of the LORD. But there can be only one THE Angel of the Lord, or it is not a THE, it becomes a AN

Often these prophets spoke as if they were God, proclaiming such things as “I am the Lord”

You read the context of what was spoken and it becomes clear the Prophet is speaking on His behalf and not actually claiming to be God.

In the translation im using (KJV), it says the angel kept his name a secret. Which makes sense because the angels wouldn't give out their names because people would worship them.

then why did Gabriel give his name out? (Luke 1)

There's absolutely no reason for the biblical writers to speak so cryptically as to refer to a physical manifestation of God as a “messenger” or “angel” rather than describing him plainly as "God." I believe if God wants to show himself he would show himself as God, not as anything else.

In a sense, all the OT writings of Jesus are rather 'cryptic'. They're not clumped together, they're spread apart across different books and authors.


After Jesus' resurrection, He showed Himself many times yet noone knew it was Him. In Luke 24, the Disciples eyes were restrained so that they would NOT know it was Jesus with them.

Here's a reason why His identity was secret - It wasn't yet time for the Messiah to be shown.

Jesus is the "Living Word" not just a messenger. He is the WORD of God. When he speaks he speaks things into existence not just sending a message like angels or prophets. He is more than just a messager of God, he is God. He is God's spoken word.

No Duh. I was using an OT prophesy of the Messiah from Isaiah 52. Where it speaks that Jesus brings good news.

Jesus is coming back with his robe dipped in blood and with the nail puncture wounds in his hands. Its his glorified resurrected body he died in that he'll return in at the second coming.

So He died in His resurrected body?

Gryphenix
09-25-2006, 11:20 AM
I certainly believe in theophanies.

Jos 5:13 And it happened, when Joshua was beside Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked. And, behold, there stood a Man in front of him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our foes?
Jos 5:14 And He said, No, but I have come as the Commander of the army of Jehovah. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth. And he worshiped and said to Him, What does my Lord say to His servant?
Jos 5:15 And the Commander of Jehovah's army said to Joshua, Take your shoe off your foot, for the place on which you stand is holy. And Joshua did so.
In this passage, Joshua bows down and worships the individual before him. If the commander had been an angel, he would have refused the worship Joshua was giving him. However he does not. This leads me to believe that this is a preincarnate Christ. In the Bible, angels always refuse worship because they know they are not the only one who deserves it.

unshakeable15
09-25-2006, 01:26 PM
In this passage, Joshua bows down and worships the individual before him. If the commander had been an angel, he would have refused the worship Joshua was giving him. However he does not. This leads me to believe that this is a preincarnate Christ. In the Bible, angels always refuse worship because they know they are not the only one who deserves it.
(Adding a space between paragraphs makes it easier to read, and also lets us see when the passage of Scripture ends.)

i was totally gonna quote that passage and give that reasoning. :) Angels don't allow themselves to be worshipped, yet the "Commander of the army of the Lord" did. Why?

NightCrawler
09-25-2006, 07:39 PM
Why did Samson's parents freak and fear death if all they saw was an Angel? they were certain they had seen God.
Umm. Sheperds. In the field. They pooped their pantses.es.

skynes
09-26-2006, 03:23 AM
Umm. Sheperds. In the field. They pooped their pantses.es.

True, but they didn't rave that they were going to die cause they'd seen God.

NightCrawler
10-03-2006, 05:58 AM
I certainly believe in theophanies.

Jos 5:13 And it happened, when Joshua was beside Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked. And, behold, there stood a Man in front of him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our foes?
Jos 5:14 And He said, No, but I have come as the Commander of the army of Jehovah. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth. And he worshiped and said to Him, What does my Lord say to His servant?
Jos 5:15 And the Commander of Jehovah's army said to Joshua, Take your shoe off your foot, for the place on which you stand is holy. And Joshua did so.

In this passage, Joshua bows down and worships the individual before him. If the commander had been an angel, he would have refused the worship Joshua was giving him. However he does not. This leads me to believe that this is a preincarnate Christ. In the Bible, angels always refuse worship because they know they are not the only one who deserves it.
It could be argued that it doesn't mention the commander stopping him. Your statement "angels always refuse worship" is seen through this filter of "every time an angel has been offered worship, it has been documented that they refuse it." What if this is an example of a lack of documentation?

NightCrawler
10-03-2006, 06:28 AM
(weak argument)

unshakeable15
10-04-2006, 10:55 AM
(i was gonna say that. If you use that argument, you could also say that a TON of things have been left out. There is no end to what might not have been documented in the Bible. We can only go with what we have.)

NightCrawler
10-05-2006, 07:08 AM
(i was gonna say that. If you use that argument, you could also say that a TON of things have been left out. There is no end to what might not have been documented in the Bible. We can only go with what we have.)
Well, some people say that there are more doctrines you can believe if you look to the Book of Enoch. "Just because it hasn't been documented in your Bible's canon, doesn't mean it didn't happen." Weak argument, but not wholly unreasonable.

NightCrawler
06-07-2007, 05:55 AM
So to make it clear:

I do not believe in a pre-incarnate Christ. Christ was only a human born in the flesh when He was born in Bethlehem. Before that He was a spiritual being like His Father.
Like angels however, He could appear in a physical form.

That makes sense.


the angel of the Lord, literally means THE Messenger of the Lord.
We know from the Prophets that Jesus was God's messenger as He would come with good news.

wait.

How do you get "THE" as opposed to an? In the context, it would mean 'the angel [only] who was standing there' and still be AN angel of the Lord. Regardless, how do you get it to follow that it is Jesus on the basis that He would bring the gospel?

skynes
06-07-2007, 06:55 AM
How do you get "THE" as opposed to an? In the context, it would mean 'the angel [only] who was standing there' and still be AN angel of the Lord. Regardless, how do you get it to follow that it is Jesus on the basis that He would bring the gospel?

*shrugs* Lost the context of what I was trying to say.

I think it was to do with a few instances in the OT where someone seen an angel, some even sacrificed to it, the angel didn't object then afterward they were terrified for they'd seen the LORD.

The Lamma
06-07-2007, 03:08 PM
What I think of when Joshua meets the Commander of the Lord's army is Michael or Raphael.

skynes
06-07-2007, 10:59 PM
What I think of when Joshua meets the Commander of the Lord's army is Michael or Raphael.

Joshua 5: 14 "So He said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?""

Angels always refuse worship.

Unregistered
06-07-2007, 11:59 PM
Angels always refuse worship.

...

Except for Satan...

skynes
06-08-2007, 03:49 AM
Except for Satan...

Obviously.

Unregistered
06-08-2007, 05:30 AM
Obviously.

Which makes your previous statement, not correct as Satan is/was an angel and didn't/doesnt refuse worship...

Reeper
06-08-2007, 09:12 AM
I don't want to get into the middle of the argument, but I will throw in my two cents here.

First off, THE angel of the Lord is not Jesus. The arch-angel Gabriel is consistently referred to as THE angel of the Lord throughout scripture. I'm actually surprised I had to mention this.

However, Jesus did appear many times during the old testament, but not in physical form(human body), like Skynes said. And as far as the form he will appear in when he returns, I would suggest reading Ezekiel. I just finished a study of it and in it it mentions the appearance of the resurrected messiah many times. To try and make a long story short, every time the resurrected messiah is seen, it describes his appearance as that of different forms of light, or lightning. This is also usually the form God himself appears in, though there are certain differences. This is also consistent throughout scripture in referring to the resurrected form of the messiah.

He will not appear to us as he was known on earth, but you will definitely know who he is.

Peace

skynes
06-08-2007, 11:36 AM
Which makes your previous statement, not correct as Satan is/was an angel and didn't/doesnt refuse worship...

I was expecting any readers to use an iota of the common sense God gave them and realise I wasn't talking about demons, but angels which serve God.

First off, THE angel of the Lord is not Jesus. The arch-angel Gabriel is consistently referred to as THE angel of the Lord throughout scripture. I'm actually surprised I had to mention this.

Please support this.

If Gabriel is THE angel, why did he accept worship from people?

Unregistered
06-08-2007, 03:59 PM
I was expecting any readers to use an iota of the common sense God gave them and realise I wasn't talking about demons, but angels which serve God.


That still does not make your statement correct.

Angels do NOT always refuse worship..

Reeper
06-09-2007, 06:34 AM
I actually need to do more research. I think I actually might be wrong about that. Get back to you.

Peace

NightCrawler
06-09-2007, 07:37 AM
I thought Gabriel was a messenger to speak the words of the Lord, Michael was an Archangel who was meant to lead the armies of angels, and Satan (the morning star, lucifer/light-bearer, the accuser) was a fallen temptor.

Often, the 'Sons of God' were known as angels. Now, I don't get that it should follow that someone looking like the 'Sons of God' should mean Jesus.

And since angel means messenger, then how can any ONE be the only messenger? For technically they ALL ARE by definition.

Oh yeah, and there are Cherubim and Seriphim, are they different from angels in that they are ministering spirits but not messengers?

NightCrawler
06-09-2007, 07:42 AM
And as far as the form he will appear in when he returns, I would suggest reading Ezekiel. I just finished a study of it and in it it mentions the appearance of the resurrected messiah many times. To try and make a long story short, every time the resurrected messiah is seen, it describes his appearance as that of different forms of light, or lightning. This is also usually the form God himself appears in, though there are certain differences. This is also consistent throughout scripture in referring to the resurrected form of the messiah.

Peace

This is exactly a problem I have been having with Theophanies which don't describe him like that.

But then what about the transfiguration? He can go from one 'form' (or manifestation, or glory) to the next.

The Lamma
06-09-2007, 10:14 AM
Angels always refuse worship.
NightCrawler did have a good point, as quoted below.
It could be argued that it doesn't mention the commander stopping him. Your statement "angels always refuse worship" is seen through this filter of "every time an angel has been offered worship, it has been documented that they refuse it." What if this is an example of a lack of documentation?


Oh yeah, and there are Cherubim and Seriphim, are they different from angels in that they are ministering spirits but not messengers
Cherubim - a type of angel that guards the holiness of God from sinful man. (Genesis 3:24, Psalm 99:1, Isaiah 37:16, Ezekiel)

Seraphim - a type of angel that worships God and acts as His messengers. (Isaiah 6:2, 6:6)

skynes
06-09-2007, 01:16 PM
What if this is an example of a lack of documentation?

Then this would go against your (Nightcrawler's) Predestination-esque beliefs, as it insinuates that God's Word is incomplete and wrong.

Cherubim - a type of angel that guards the holiness of God from sinful man. (Genesis 3:24, Psalm 99:1, Isaiah 37:16, Ezekiel)

Seraphim - a type of angel that worships God and acts as His messengers. (Isaiah 6:2, 6:6)


Nice find. I'll check those references up later.

NightCrawler
06-09-2007, 08:31 PM
Then this would go against your (Nightcrawler's) Predestination-esque beliefs, as it insinuates that God's Word is incomplete and wrong.
Wait.

Lamma has predestination-esque beliefs? Or was that directed at me?

And the Bible is as complete as it needs to be. How does Armenianism or Calvinism imply one way or the other?

The Lamma
06-09-2007, 08:40 PM
Thanks, Skynes. :):P See, Awana is good stuff, 'cause thats where I knew how to find that out. ;D Oh, and just a note: The Seraphim references don't work for certain translations, such as NIV, because they 'angel' or something. Though NKJV and KJV say 'Seraphim', which is what you use, no?

Lamma has predestination-esque beliefs? Or was that directed at me?
It wasn't me he was quoting, it was you.

NightCrawler
06-09-2007, 11:56 PM
Oh. Oops.

Ya know, Skynes. There is a thing you can put this [quote=NightCrawler] instead of [quote] for when there is an old quote. :P

skynes
06-10-2007, 01:49 AM
Maybe if you read it closer and seen (Nightcrawler's) in brackets, you'd see who I was referencing :P

That [quote = whoever] thing usually doesn't work for me unless I click the Quote button. Never figured out why.

The Lamma
06-11-2007, 09:41 AM
I think you just put [quote = whoever] instead of [quote=whoever]. Could the spaces be the reason why, hmm?