Mayonnaise
09-25-2006, 07:16 PM
Yes, a little strange. However, listen to my reasoning first.

Point one. Matthew 28 states, "Go and baptize them in the NAME of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost." So many churches mistake this, thinking it is the Trinity. Which it isn't. Notice how I capitalized NAME. Many churches baptize in the "titles". Properly done, it is supposed to be the Name of, or Jesus.

So, why does it say Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Simple. God himself(the father)came to earth manifested in the form of the flesh, as well as coming in the form of the Holy Ghost. Case closed.

Next. I also don't believe all you have to do is believe and be saved. John 3:5 states, "Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." So, what this is saying is you need to be born again, or baptized, in water and in the Holy Ghost. To enter the kingdom of God. And the proper way to baptize is in the name of Jesus. Case closed yet again.

On a final note, I am Apostolic or United Pentecostal, whichever you choose. I am born again in the water and in the spirit and I'm here to try and...convince some of you. All I have stated are direct quotes. I am here to help some of you. If you have any questions, please ask me.

~Mayonnaise~

skynes
09-26-2006, 03:28 AM
God himself(the father)came to earth manifested in the form of the flesh, as well as coming in the form of the Holy Ghost. Case closed.

That's quite impossible, since Jesus said no man has seen the Father but the son. If Jesus was the Father in flesh, then He lied.

Next. I also don't believe all you have to do is believe and be saved.

Acts 8:37 says otherwise. now either the bible is wrong, or you are wrong. I'll go with scripture every time.

John 3:5 states, "Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

When you are born in the flesh, you are born of water. When you believe upon Christ you are born in the Spirit.

I am Apostolic or United Pentecostal

I don't care... you could be a German/Russian from a Jewish background that's now an Orthodox and I won't care, lol.

Denominations means very little to me. You're a Christian, or you're not. That's as far as I care.

NightCrawler
09-26-2006, 08:41 AM
Fair rebuttal, Skynes.

Mayo, ... why didn't you post this on Mars Hill? It looks like you are trying to argue, you are presenting philosophy backed by some reasoning, and you make a charge to say that you will defend it.

Sounds like it belongs on Mars Hill. Anyone disagree?

By the way, Acts 8:37 says (Amplified Bible)
37And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart [if you have a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messiah and accept Him as the Author of your salvation in the kingdom of God, giving Him your obedience, then] you may. And he replied, I do believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

weebird20
09-26-2006, 08:58 AM
hmmm...i agree with you Jonathan...i think this thread would be more suited to Mars Hill...*goes to move the thread*...there...now you can all continue this discussion...

i would like to add something though...please be civil to one another...you cannot always convince people to go with your thinking by stating reasons why you believe a certain way...just like you cannot convince someone to come to Christ...God is really the only one who can change the heart and mind of man...but do feel free to offer your own thoughts on this topic

somasoul
09-26-2006, 09:36 AM
Next. I also don't believe all you have to do is believe and be saved. John 3:5 states, "Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." So, what this is saying is you need to be born again, or baptized, in water and in the Holy Ghost. To enter the kingdom of God. And the proper way to baptize is in the name of Jesus. Case closed yet again.



I don't think the case is closed. Nor do i think it that simple. On the cross the thief repented and Jesus told him that he'd be in paradise that day.

Christians have been debating this stuff for thousands of years. If you've come here to convince some of us of one thing or another then perhaps you have come for the wrong reasons.

Mayonnaise
09-26-2006, 01:22 PM
Alrighty then. First, I'm using the non-edited King James Version. The Amplified is a paraphrase Bible IIRC, and should not be used in serious discussions.

God himself(the father)came to earth manifested in the form of the flesh, as well as coming in the form of the Holy Ghost. Case closed.

That's quite impossible, since Jesus said no man has seen the Father but the son. If Jesus was the Father in flesh, then He lied.

Give me a Scriptual Passage for this.


Quote: Next. I also don't believe all you have to do is believe and be saved.

Acts 8:37 says otherwise. now either the bible is wrong, or you are wrong. I'll go with scripture every time.

Acts 8:27 reads in the KJV,

And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
KJV

How does this refute anything?

John 3:5 states, "Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

When you are born in the flesh, you are born of water. When you believe upon Christ you are born in the Spirit.


I disagree. Going back in the passage, we find the true meaning behind this.

John 3:3-5

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again
KJV

This explains that being born of the water and of the spirit is not the same thing as being born or believing in Christ.

I don't care... you could be a German/Russian from a Jewish background that's now an Orthodox and I won't care, lol.
Denominations means very little to me. You're a Christian, or you're not. That's as far as I care.

Actually, Apostolic or UPC is not a denomination. UPC is short for UPCI, or United Pentecostal Church International, which is basically the Apostolic church. Apostolic is just a name given to us, we are not a denomination. I don't have a religion either; rather, I consider it as a relationship with God.

I don't think the case is closed. Nor do i think it that simple. On the cross the thief repented and Jesus told him that he'd be in paradise that day.


That is one thing I cannot explain, I am no pastor. Possibly if a native savage somewhere found God and spoke in tongues, but could not be baptized because there was no one to do it. So could this be circumstancal?

jade
09-26-2006, 02:47 PM
Acts 8:27 is a far cry from Acts 8:37. :)

Acts 8:37 says otherwise. now either the bible is wrong, or you are wrong. I'll go with scripture every time.

Acts 8:37 - New King James Version (NKJV)

Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%208:37;&version=50;#en-NKJV-27208)

Mayonnaise
09-26-2006, 02:56 PM
Ahh. I see now :P

I do have an answer, however. While it does say you need to believe to be baptized, which I agree with, it does not say that's all you need to do to get into heaven. However, check out this Scripture.


James 2:18-19

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
KJV

The devils themselves believe, and tremble! The devils belive on Him, they believe!

agent_c68
09-26-2006, 03:00 PM
I disagree. Going back in the passage, we find the true meaning behind this.
...
This explains that being born of the water and of the spirit is not the same thing as being born or believing in Christ.

Let's look at it again...

John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus paralles "born of water" and "born of flesh." So I do not think he is refering to baptism with "born of water." In addition, this is the only place in scripture that uses the phrase "born of water", and the discussion in scripture is about confusing "born again" with physical birth.

Here's an old discussion about Baptism (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showthread.php?t=699)

On a final note, I am Apostolic or United Pentecostal, whichever you choose. I am born again in the water and in the spirit and I'm here to try and...convince some of you. All I have stated are direct quotes. I am here to help some of you. If you have any questions, please ask me.

Actually, Apostolic or UPC is not a denomination. UPC is short for UPCI, or United Pentecostal Church International, which is basically the Apostolic church. Apostolic is just a name given to us, we are not a denomination. I don't have a religion either; rather, I consider it as a relationship with God.

Why did you bring it up in the first place? Are Apostolic better then other Christians Churches, such as Baptist, Methodist, or even Non-Denominational (just to mention a few)? I'm not implying that you think of yourself as more holy or better then us, but you seem to make it seem that there is importance in being Apostolic rather then other christians.

1 Cor. 1:12-13
What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided?...

somasoul
09-26-2006, 04:03 PM
That is one thing I cannot explain, I am no pastor. Possibly if a native savage somewhere found God and spoke in tongues, but could not be baptized because there was no one to do it. So could this be circumstancal?

You come here with a know-it-all attitude, a newbie on the board, then you admit you don't it all. You see that your idea has a hole, you can't explain it, but insist your right in what I and others see as an arrogant and uppity demeanor.

If you think you need water baptism then that's fine. But your hardliner stance and arrogant way about you ain't gonna earn you any friends.

somasoul
09-26-2006, 04:07 PM
The devils themselves believe, and tremble! The devils belive on Him, they believe!

I am Apostolic or United Pentecostal

Obviously.

Having been brought up in the Penecostal church I've seen a lot of folks swere they "don't have a religion" but when push comes to shove they have all sorts of "rules" that only their church actually believes.

I have a lot of love for the Penecostal church, don't get me wrong. I'm still involved on some levels. But I also see a lot of.........uh.........strange values.

Spiffles
09-26-2006, 04:39 PM
being "new" shouldnt have anything to do with anything.


You come here with a know-it-all attitude, a newbie on the board, then you admit you don't it all.

by admitting he does not know it all, then that shows and proves he does NOT have a "know it all" attitude.




On to the topic.
I dont believe you need to be baptised to be saved and go to heaven in the after life.
I beleive it is a public symbol to your church family on your decision to recieve Jesus. It is a representation of being born again. Much like communion is a representation.
With baptism, you go under, which represents the sins being washed away, and when you come back up, it represents being being born anew. It is just a representation though. What actually matters is your decision to choose Jesus in your spirit.


As for the demoninatinal thing.. meh.. If a church follows God's laws, preaches from the bible (and not their own crap) then it's all good.

We have different types because everyone is different. I see it is part of the body of Christ. Arms do different things to elgs, which do different things to noses. They are not the same. So churches are different also because we all are different.. No point say me going somewhere, and not fitting in, thats like a toe trying to go to an ear part of the body.

Anyways.. All he did was mention what part of the body he was, thats all.. And he gets blasted for it..
What, so someone isnt allowed to say what church they are from without people *assuming* more then that?


I am born again in the water and in the spirit and I'm here to try and...convince some of you.

As for this.. Mayo..
Maybe convince was the wrong word..
We shouldnt be trying to convince anyone.. Let Jesus convince people.. All we ment to do is speak the truth.
By trying to convince people, we are leaning on our own understanding instead of Gods. I cant remember the passage thats from but God says not to lean on ourselves but Gods understanding.

NightCrawler
09-26-2006, 05:39 PM
being "new" shouldnt have anything to do with anything.
Actually, I'd prefer to discuss something with a fair sense of understanding of the person. That is, I'd like to argue with a friend, not as much a stranger. Miscommunication is much more rampant with a stranger than someone who you can understand the tone, purpose and wording easily.

Advice: Don't stop posting, just slow down and let us get to know you before we get into some really heated debates.

dawn of light
09-26-2006, 08:05 PM
...we are leaning on our own understanding instead of Gods. I cant remember the passage thats from but God says not to lean on ourselves but Gods understanding.

Is this the verse you wanted?

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

Spiffles
09-26-2006, 08:29 PM
thats it. thanks :)

skynes
09-26-2006, 10:50 PM
John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Oh and God said to Moses in Exodus 33:20 "But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." "

James 2:18-19

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
KJV

Context is very important. You need to consider: What was James trying to get across here?

that we need to EARN our salvation? No..

He was saying that those cutesy little 'believers' who say "I believe in God" yet everything in their life reflects sin, are not saved. Not that believe is not important, it is!
But one who really believes in Christ and the judgement to come will have evidences in their life of it.

e.g. a new hatred for sin, repentance when they do sin, continual striving to be like Christ, a whole new perspective on life/death, good and evil.

John 3:3-5

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again

Allow me to paraphrase:

Do not mix up physical birth and spiritual birth.
I am not talking of being born again from your mothers womb, I am talking about a spiritual rebirth. Your flesh is alive, your spirit is dead. You spirit needs to be brought into life and I'm using the term 'born' as it's supposed to be nice and simple and used worldwide.

Born of water = born of the flesh.
Born of spirit = Spiritual rebirth.

but if you don't understand this simple earthly idea, how am I supposed to explain heavenly ideas? (addressed to Nicodemus).

--------------------
Jesus was using an earthly concept - being physically born into the world. To try and explain spiritual birth, but Nicodemus didn't get it, lol.

amodman
09-26-2006, 11:55 PM
Point one. Matthew 28 states, "Go and baptize them in the NAME of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost." So many churches mistake this, thinking it is the Trinity. Which it isn't. Notice how I capitalized NAME. Many churches baptize in the "titles". Properly done, it is supposed to be the Name of, or Jesus.

A. I don't trust much trinity philosophy. It's pretty sloppy and unnecessary to me. Christ, The Father, and The Holy Ghost, that's all I need.

B. You're wrong. YHWH (or YHVH) is the best translation for the actual name of God we have in English. How that's supposed to be pronounced has been lost through the ages. The best English approximation is Yaweh (or Yaveh), also originally mis-interpreted as Jehovah. Furthermore, Jesus is a translation of Yeshua, one of the most ridiculous things in Christianity IMO. Why did we take a Greek interpretation of Jesus and *translate it*, and now that's the canon? Blah. I say Yeshua.

So, why does it say Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Simple. God himself(the father)came to earth manifested in the form of the flesh, as well as coming in the form of the Holy Ghost. Case closed.

Or perhaps not solely on behalf of the Father, which would be bypassing Christ as our connection with him (impossible and wrong), and not without the blessing and sanctity of the Holy Ghost?

Next. I also don't believe all you have to do is believe and be saved. John 3:5 states, "Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." So, what this is saying is you need to be born again, or baptized, in water and in the Holy Ghost. To enter the kingdom of God. And the proper way to baptize is in the name of Jesus. Case closed yet again.

Closed again is it? Because we keep re-opening it. A little further in your own quoted conversation in chapter 3 - 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Christ himself.

Born of water and spirit, though, this is actually quite a conundrum. Nicodemus seemed to have no further questions on that particular of the matter, meaning it was something he both understood and that Christ knew he'd understand. Would he have understood Christian baptism? No. Would he have understood what we refer to as a woman's water breaking? Perhaps not. What might he have understood in the context of his own teaching? Perhaps a prophecy from God to Ezekiel known to all Jewish teachers concerning his covenant with his people -

"25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Ezekiel 36:25-27

Sounds like repentance.

On a final note, I am Apostolic or United Pentecostal, whichever you choose. I am born again in the water and in the spirit and I'm here to try and...convince some of you. All I have stated are direct quotes. I am here to help some of you. If you have any questions, please ask me.

Why should we care? (that's a rhetorical question, nobody does)

drumchick101
09-27-2006, 11:59 AM
Hmmm,

About only believing in order to be saved...

I notice that acts 8:37 is taken out of certain traslations of the bible (ESV and NLT). However, I don't believe just believing is enough. Nor will works save you. One thing that happened on the cross that day was that the robber repented which means "to turn away from." We must turn away from our sin as well as believe (notice how Phillip said "bleieve in your heart"). You can't jsut believe with your head, you must believe with your heart and sincerily turn from your sins.

><sarah><

newday_7
10-05-2006, 09:55 PM
mayo, you said that you don't have a "religion" just a relationship with God, if that's true how come you keep coming back to a certain translation of the bible that "is" better than any other. I don't mean to sound offensive, but from everything that i've read i've been reminded of the pharisees. Quoting the "law of moses" which is part of the bible, the original one, which, if there is a better version, is the most true one. Yet they didn't really know what they were saying, they got all caught up on "the right thing" that they forgot about the relationship, which is what i'm seeing here. Jesus is my friend, and i'm not perfect, He loves me, and i don't understand everything i read in the bible. I know i'm saved, and if you have any doubts about that one just ask Jesus Himself, He'll tell you the same thing. why is there so much fighting eachother in the church? Shouldn't we be working together to help the people who need Jesus, rather than spending our time arguing about who knows God better or who sees Him the right way?

lamb_servant72
10-06-2006, 02:42 AM
Ten Thousand Amens!!

In fact, let's pray that for ourselves here on Panheads. It seems like sometimes we spend the majority of our time argueing over the Word, and less time encouraging and supporting one another in our individual callings. I pray God will give each of us a deeper hunger to do that.

NightCrawler
10-06-2006, 08:02 AM
newday_7:
You seem to come in at the right times or say what is needed. Coincedence, I think not.

skilletfreak101
10-06-2006, 11:46 AM
mayo, you said that you don't have a "religion" just a relationship with God, if that's true how come you keep coming back to a certain translation of the bible that "is" better than any other. I don't mean to sound offensive, but from everything that i've read i've been reminded of the pharisees. Quoting the "law of moses" which is part of the bible, the original one, which, if there is a better version, is the most true one. Yet they didn't really know what they were saying, they got all caught up on "the right thing" that they forgot about the relationship, which is what i'm seeing here. Jesus is my friend, and i'm not perfect, He loves me, and i don't understand everything i read in the bible. I know i'm saved, and if you have any doubts about that one just ask Jesus Himself, He'll tell you the same thing. why is there so much fighting eachother in the church? Shouldn't we be working together to help the people who need Jesus, rather than spending our time arguing about who knows God better or who sees Him the right way?
amen dawg. we need to be one in the Body of Christ. it's commanded in the Bible :-)

kybz
01-20-2007, 06:03 AM
I don't mean to sound offensive,

I hate that sentence. Who cares if you offend people, did Jesus care if He offended anyone? No,is the answer. For crying out loud he flamin well overturned tables of prosperity in the tabernacle not caring what people thought!

We have all become so worried about what others think. Stop being a flamin' wuss and worrying what others think, worry only what God thinks.

Shouldn't we be working together to help the people who need Jesus, rather than spending our time arguing about who knows God better or who sees Him the right way?

Amen, brother!

I had to laugh when Mayo came in saying he was here to 'convince' us. I thought, you have to be kidding, Mate!. There is one thing to not worry about offending people but it is a totally different matter to say that you are the only on who is right and that others need 'convincing'. That is almost sect preception.

I am pretty 'out there' with what I say - I don't mind offending people. lol. But I will never say that my belief is the be-all and end-all. (I have been known to be wrong on occasions! :P )

NightCrawler
01-20-2007, 07:00 AM
I hate that sentence. Who cares if you offend people, did Jesus care if He offended anyone? No,is the answer. For crying out loud he flamin well overturned tables of prosperity in the tabernacle not caring what people thought!

We have all become so worried about what others think. Stop being a flamin' wuss and worrying what others think, worry only what God thinks.

Wow. I disagree.

Jesus turned over the table, not because He thought it should be done and didn't care what people thought, but because it was necessary. He had no choice, regardless of what people thought. However, Jesus cared very much about who He offended. He was careful not to create an insurrection, He didn't want to be a jerk (often seen), etc.

To go as far as to say "Jesus didn't care if he offended anyone" is a bit extreme, and I must disagree.

Also, 'wuss' is direct attack.