bubblesemm
12-01-2006, 08:14 PM
It really makes me mad when people say that they are Christians and then don't act like they are. There is something seriously wrong with that. I mean, how can someone say that they are bisexual and that they think that wicca is cool, and then say, "Oh yeah,I am a Christian".I'm sorry, but that really bothers me. Something else that bothers me is the fact that people do drugs, and then they sit there and say that they are Christians.I think that part of the problem is that people are being decieved.The Bibles does say that in the last days satan will blind the eyes of men, and I think that that is what is happening. I also think that some people know that what they think/believe isn't true, but yet,they chose to believe it any way. That really aggrivates me too. I think that people need to wake up and come to the realization of what truth really is. I mean,I understand that people aren't perfect, but I mean, those are sins that should be taken out first. Sins that are suppose to be dealt with right away, not ones that we should boast about, like alot of people do. I mean,yes, sin is sin, but those are easily identifiable sins. Those are the ones that people should find the easiest to get out of their lives, but sometimes I just don't understand the way that people think. At least God does, and He is big enough to work on their hearts.

planet_kosmos
12-01-2006, 09:33 PM
I know someone like that, he says he is christian but does not act like one. He doesn't think that people who have done really bad things can repent and I had to explain to him that Jesus was holy. He makes me sad, all I can do is pray for him.

skilletfreak101
12-01-2006, 10:01 PM
that right there is taking the Lord's name in vain. when you call yourself a christian but willingly sin and know that it's wrong. it says in the Bible that Sodom and Gommorah's case are better than the person's case who willingly sins with the lord's name on their hearts.

DarkestRose
12-01-2006, 11:54 PM
I wouldn't want to start judging who is a Christian and who isn't. I don't really know people's hearts, so I can't say. I don't know why some people have such arduous struggles with certain sins. I do believe that Christians need to strive to live a life of righteousness, holiness and purity. I think the best thing to do is just to pray for people who are struggling in some area of sin and love them like Jesus who spent His life reaching out to sinners.

Everyone, even Christians, have at some point sinned willingly. We're all dysfunctional sinners. We all fall short of God's glory. So none of us have good cases. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive. God is bigger than anything we can do or any problem we can face.

planet_kosmos
12-02-2006, 01:49 AM
I wouldn't want to start judging who is a Christian and who isn't. I don't really know people's hearts, so I can't say. I don't know why some people have such arduous struggles with certain sins. I do believe that Christians need to strive to live a life of righteousness, holiness and purity. I think the best thing to do is just to pray for people who are struggling in some area of sin and love them like Jesus who spent His life reaching out to sinners.

Everyone, even Christians, have at some point sinned willingly. We're all dysfunctional sinners. We all fall short of God's glory. So none of us have good cases. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive. God is bigger than anything we can do or any problem we can face.

Well put.

skynes
12-02-2006, 05:03 AM
Those people who claim to be Christians with nothing in their lives to show it are not Christians at all. That is based upon scripture (all out of 1 John).

I don't think a persons heart makes a difference here. The Bible very clearly states that those who are in Christ walk in light and those who walk in darkness have no fellowship with Him. Those who say they have no sin are liars and do not have the Word of God.

I can also say that being a baby Christian makes no difference either, cause I've seen first hand a baby Christian in her first week go and give the Gospel to all her friends! and another baby Christian without being told to, go out and find and church and start reading and praying daily.

Emily what you're describing really annoys me too. These people are the true hypocrites. They're pretending to be something they're not.

See these people? Ask them why they're Christians and ask them about the origin of it. You'll probably be surprised at their answers, afterward give them the real Gospel.

I know someone like that, he says he is christian but does not act like one. He doesn't think that people who have done really bad things can repent and I had to explain to him that Jesus was holy.

This is someone who doesn't understand God, the gospel, sin, the cross or anything related to salvation.

as~i~lay~dying
12-02-2006, 09:12 AM
Those people who claim to be Christians with nothing in their lives to show it are not Christians at all. That is based upon scripture (all out of 1 John).

I don't think a persons heart makes a difference here. The Bible very clearly states that those who are in Christ walk in light and those who walk in darkness have no fellowship with Him. Those who say they have no sin are liars and do not have the Word of God.




I disagree. I will use myself as an example. I most definately consider myself a christian, but by my life, you wouldnt know. I am at a weird place in my life but I still know in my heart that there is a God, and I love Him. Sure we arent exactly "tight" right now becasue of certain cercumstances in my life, but that does not mean I am going to hell!

skynes
12-02-2006, 09:32 AM
I disagree. I will use myself as an example. I most definately consider myself a christian, but by my life, you wouldnt know. I am at a weird place in my life but I still know in my heart that there is a God, and I love Him. Sure we arent exactly "tight" right now becasue of certain cercumstances in my life, but that does not mean I am going to hell!

Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't talking about people in a difficult position with God, but those who never knew Him in the first place.

Your own words prove my point: I still know in my heart that there is a God, and I love Him.

Are you able to say "there is no God"?

I don't think you could say that.

dawn of light
12-02-2006, 09:40 AM
It's sad that there are hypocritical Christians. But seriously, I wouldn't go so far as to say "they're not Christians" because of their sins. Only God knows their heart and God is the only judge of their heart. It's not for me to say whether someone is a "true" Christian or not, it's just not my place.

I find it kind of ironic and somewhat hypocritical that we have two difference threads that addess homosexual sins yet say two different things. In Repentence and Homosexuality we say "don't try to clean up your sexual sins without God, come to Him first" and in this thread we say "clean up your sexual sins now, otherwise you're not a real Christian".

Where is the grace and forgiveness? Everyone continually struggles with sin. It might not be the same sin all the time or whatever but you'd be a fool to esteem yourselves higher than someone else because of your "sinless life". I'd rather love someone and pray for them, lovingly confront them if need be, than judge their heart. If someone says they are a Christian, why would that be for me to judge if they're telling the truth?

kittygirl
12-02-2006, 11:15 AM
Tell you the truth, those people are just blinded. Yes...that doesn't mean they are a Christian, but that does mean they're being lied to.

the people who bother me more than the unsaved, however, are the ones who say that they are Christians, yet do not reach out to the lost kids, and the hurting around them, who do NOT talk about God, and live very comfortable lives. They just seem very...dead to me. They have no passion, and they don't understand how it feels to have a family that isn't saved, to not have money, to have friends that don't believe the same as them, etc.

Not saying that I hate people with money, or that it is necessary to have an unsaved family, but there are alot of people I know who don't really care that mush about people outside themselves.

skynes
12-02-2006, 12:09 PM
It's sad that there are hypocritical Christians. But seriously, I wouldn't go so far as to say "they're not Christians" because of their sins. Only God knows their heart and God is the only judge of their heart. It's not for me to say whether someone is a "true" Christian or not, it's just not my place.

I did not say they are not Christians because of their sins. That would be a pretty stupid thing to say.

What I said was, in my own words, the exact same thing Jesus said "By their fruits you shall know them"

Only God knows their heart and God is the only judge of their heart.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Matt 12:34

So in a way, yeah we can know the heart, not to the full extent God can know it, but to a degree we can know some of it. By a persons speech and actions. If their actions are cruel and sinful continually then that is a result of a cruel and sin filled heart.

I find it kind of ironic and somewhat hypocritical that we have two difference threads that addess homosexual sins yet say two different things. In Repentence and Homosexuality we say "don't try to clean up your sexual sins without God, come to Him first" and in this thread we say "clean up your sexual sins now, otherwise you're not a real Christian".

Again I never said this. If a person claims to follow Christ and in their life there is NO change, NO repentance for sins and NO desire to seek truth, then by the Biblical standard they do not follow Christ.

It doesn't matter what sin it is, after you turn to Christ changes will happen. If changes do not happen then no turning to Christ occurred.

Where is the grace and forgiveness? Everyone continually struggles with sin. It might not be the same sin all the time or whatever but you'd be a fool to esteem yourselves higher than someone else because of your "sinless life". I'd rather love someone and pray for them, lovingly confront them if need be, than judge their heart. If someone says they are a Christian, why would that be for me to judge if they're telling the truth?

This has nothing to do with sinlessness, or pride or arrogance.
This is to do with spotting true and false conversion. This is to do with the wheats and tares, the wolves among lambs.


If a person claims to know Christ yet brags about their sin and shows no sign of remorse or repentance. They are simply not Christians at all.

dawn of light
12-02-2006, 12:15 PM
I agree with you Rachael. People like that bother me as well.

Just thought I'd let you know, Scott, I wasn't attacking your post personally I was responding to the whole "feel" of the thread.

riz
12-02-2006, 10:15 PM
It bothers me when people bring the whole "gay" issue into this as an example. Let me tell you, it is highly more complicated than an "oh, you're gay, so that means you aren't a Christian" sort of discussion. I know people who are gay, and I would say they are definitely Christian. It's really funny how people like to tick people off as not walking the Christian life, when they truly are trying to, even if they are struggling or having troubles.

DarkestRose
12-02-2006, 10:25 PM
It bothers me when people bring the whole "gay" issue into this as an example. Let me tell you, it is highly more complicated than an "oh, you're gay, so that means you aren't a Christian" sort of discussion. I know people who are gay, and I would say they are definitely Christian. It's really funny how people like to tick people off as not walking the Christian life, when they truly are trying to, even if they are struggling or having troubles.

Exactly. And that's why I think it is a dangerous business to start judging who is a Christian and who is not.

bubblesemm
12-03-2006, 04:08 AM
I understand that people struggle with certain sins, and I was not trying to judge any one. Yes, I don't know there hearts,that is true, but like the Bible says, you will know them by their fruit, and some people who claim to be Christians don't act like Christians at all. Also, this person I was referring to knows that she is not acting like a Christian, and yet she willingly lives likes she wants to. This is not right.

skilltroks
12-03-2006, 09:54 AM
It bothers me when people bring the whole "gay" issue into this as an example. Let me tell you, it is highly more complicated than an "oh, you're gay, so that means you aren't a Christian" sort of discussion. I know people who are gay, and I would say they are definitely Christian. It's really funny how people like to tick people off as not walking the Christian life, when they truly are trying to, even if they are struggling or having troubles.
Thank you for saying that.

It has been repeated only ten times before: It's not our job to judge people. It's God's. Only God knows what is in your heart.

drumchick101
12-03-2006, 10:00 AM
I know, this is so hard....I go to a school chalk FULL of them. However, every time I would open my Bible about it, God would show me yet another verse that says to love and encourage them despite it. Which makes sense, because if we constantly accuse them than they will only get mad and harden. But by being loved and seeing your good actions and attitudes they can be encouraged to live better lives.

I know, this is hard and watching them go on with their silly chisitan social clubs can be utterly infuriating, but we are called to love them.

On a side note, I know there are times when Paul yelled at people (read Galations) I find that he did that because he was in a place of leadership over them. And then there's Jesus in the temple overturning tables, but they were desicrating the house of God. I guess a modern justiacation for this would be a christian taking the Lord's name in vein, because they are desecrating His Holiness. But even then, I just approach them about it, God has called us to be peaceful about things. They will be won over by love.

><sarah><

bubblesemm
12-03-2006, 10:59 AM
I wasn't saying to not show them the love and grace of God in that thread. All I was saying was that some people know that what they are doing is wrong and yet they say that they are Christians and they think that they are soo cool for doing those sins. (That is me just stating the obvious and that they are hypocrites.) I mean, come on, if you really wanted to live for God, you wouldn't be bragging about the sins that you are struggling with. You would try to get help. Also, I am not saying that I am perfect by any means, but I at least don't go around bragging about my problems/sins. Well,ttul. I hope that I haven't offended you in any way.




It's sad that there are hypocritical Christians. But seriously, I wouldn't go so far as to say "they're not Christians" because of their sins. Only God knows their heart and God is the only judge of their heart. It's not for me to say whether someone is a "true" Christian or not, it's just not my place.

I find it kind of ironic and somewhat hypocritical that we have two difference threads that addess homosexual sins yet say two different things. In Repentence and Homosexuality we say "don't try to clean up your sexual sins without God, come to Him first" and in this thread we say "clean up your sexual sins now, otherwise you're not a real Christian".

Where is the grace and forgiveness? Everyone continually struggles with sin. It might not be the same sin all the time or whatever but you'd be a fool to esteem yourselves higher than someone else because of your "sinless life". I'd rather love someone and pray for them, lovingly confront them if need be, than judge their heart. If someone says they are a Christian, why would that be for me to judge if they're telling the truth?

dawn of light
12-03-2006, 01:52 PM
Emily, I understand what you're saying better now. I replied to your pm.

timmyrotter
12-03-2006, 11:03 PM
something ive noticed growning up in the church now, is how unexcepting we are of poeple. that in itself is a sin. love the sinner, hate the sin... right?

and before some of you start casting the first stone. examine yourselves. unblind yourself of this self righteous veil, see what is in your life, allbeit may be a lesser degree, but who can measure a sin.

the hardest part is the walk. you can talk the talk, but homosexuality, bisexuality, wicca, lust, self-righteousness, are all lifestyles, so watch yourselves.

im not the one to judge, thankfully...

Tromos
12-04-2006, 06:53 AM
Good topic for conversation, by the way...

This is a really hard thing for those of us that really try to live a Christian life. Jesus made it clear that following Him would not be easy. In fact, it couldn't be easy. Take up your cross and the narrow path and all that.

So we reach some point in our lives when we realize we've drifted and we feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repent and refocus. We set aside time to read the Word, we talk and listen to God, we resist the temptations to say the mean things we would have said before, etc etc. We take up the cross and really try.

Then we encounter these people that wear their Christianity like a cheap sticker on their shirt. "Me? Oh I'm a cheerleader and on the debate team and a Christian and enjoy golf!" ::]

And then we make the mistake. The mistake that plagues us all. We compare ourselves to them. We look at how hard we work to feel like we have the right to wear the label "Christian" and we see how little someone else appears to work, yet they claim the same label. And seem to have no respect for it. And they act so smug while we are racked with guilt and this feeling of being buried under our debt to Christ.

But we made the mistake. Our ONLY comparison is to Jesus Himself. The ONLY measure of our success or failure is how well we have lived like Jesus. It is a personal relationship between us and our Savior and has absolutely nothing to do with how other people act toward us or around us. Consequently. when someone else claims to be a Christian, that's between them and God and has nothing to do with us. Don't go there because it doesn't matter and it's just one more way that Satan will try to twist your faith to serve his ends.

So the answer to "What do we do about them?" is: Irrelevant. Not your problem. Jesus will talk to you about you. Jesus tells you to love them and to be a servant to them - just like everyone else. It makes no difference what they say or how they act because those things have nothing to do with you. Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 to aspire to live quietly, do honest work with your own hands, and to mind your own business. Your focus is not to be what they are doing, but on the tasks given to you.

bubblesemm
12-04-2006, 07:53 AM
It bothers me when people bring the whole "gay" issue into this as an example. Let me tell you, it is highly more complicated than an "oh, you're gay, so that means you aren't a Christian" sort of discussion. I know people who are gay, and I would say they are definitely Christian. It's really funny how people like to tick people off as not walking the Christian life, when they truly are trying to, even if they are struggling or having troubles.

I understand what you are saying,but I am talking about people who know that being gay is wrong and yet they chose to live that way any way. Also,if someone is struggling with for instance, homosexuality, then they should seek help,not continue to live that way and think that it is ok,which was what I was referring to in this thread.

bubblesemm
12-04-2006, 07:59 AM
I understand that people struggle with certain sins, and I was not trying to judge any one. Yes, I don't know there hearts,that is true, but like the Bible says, you will know them by their fruit, and some people who claim to be Christians don't act like Christians at all. Also, this person I was referring to knows that she is not acting like a Christian, and yet she willingly lives likes she wants to. This is not right.

dawn of light
12-04-2006, 08:26 AM
Dave, great post. You made very good points.

skynes
12-04-2006, 10:01 AM
So the answer to "What do we do about them?" is: Irrelevant. Not your problem. Jesus will talk to you about you. Jesus tells you to love them and to be a servant to them - just like everyone else. It makes no difference what they say or how they act because those things have nothing to do with you. Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 to aspire to live quietly, do honest work with your own hands, and to mind your own business. Your focus is not to be what they are doing, but on the tasks given to you.


Can I ask how this applies to those who are not saved? Should we not preach the gospel and mind our own business?

fifi la bomba
12-04-2006, 10:04 AM
Good topic for conversation, by the way...

This is a really hard thing for those of us that really try to live a Christian life. Jesus made it clear that following Him would not be easy. In fact, it couldn't be easy. Take up your cross and the narrow path and all that.

So we reach some point in our lives when we realize we've drifted and we feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repent and refocus. We set aside time to read the Word, we talk and listen to God, we resist the temptations to say the mean things we would have said before, etc etc. We take up the cross and really try.

Then we encounter these people that wear their Christianity like a cheap sticker on their shirt. "Me? Oh I'm a cheerleader and on the debate team and a Christian and enjoy golf!" ::]

And then we make the mistake. The mistake that plagues us all. We compare ourselves to them. We look at how hard we work to feel like we have the right to wear the label "Christian" and we see how little someone else appears to work, yet they claim the same label. And seem to have no respect for it. And they act so smug while we are racked with guilt and this feeling of being buried under our debt to Christ.

But we made the mistake. Our ONLY comparison is to Jesus Himself. The ONLY measure of our success or failure is how well we have lived like Jesus. It is a personal relationship between us and our Savior and has absolutely nothing to do with how other people act toward us or around us. Consequently. when someone else claims to be a Christian, that's between them and God and has nothing to do with us. Don't go there because it doesn't matter and it's just one more way that Satan will try to twist your faith to serve his ends.

So the answer to "What do we do about them?" is: Irrelevant. Not your problem. Jesus will talk to you about you. Jesus tells you to love them and to be a servant to them - just like everyone else. It makes no difference what they say or how they act because those things have nothing to do with you. Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 to aspire to live quietly, do honest work with your own hands, and to mind your own business. Your focus is not to be what they are doing, but on the tasks given to you.

^^yes yes yes!^^ excellent post.... it's not up to us, but to God. totally! i love teh part about Jesus talking to us about us, not about what anyone else has done.. great point! i commend you!!

fifi la bomba
12-04-2006, 10:10 AM
Can I ask how this applies to those who are not saved? Should we not preach the gospel and mind our own business?

touche', skynes! touche'!

skynes
12-04-2006, 10:10 AM
I've been going on the idea that this thread is about people who claim to be saved when they are not... And I've been addressing that issue not true Christians who struggle with sin.

Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 to aspire to live quietly, do honest work with your own hands, and to mind your own business. Your focus is not to be what they are doing, but on the tasks given to you.

9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;

11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,

12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

I think the point of what Paul was saying is to not be a gossiper, not be rude etc. So that those around you have nothing to condemn you with.

------

Edit:
My blog on Myspace (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=12701444&blogID=200476950&MyToken=0f943443-42c9-43ba-8ab7-8092220f365f)

This link is something I wrote on Saturday regarding this topic. It's in more detail than my posts here are.

Also...

A sermon (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonID=52906154239)

You need to register to hear, but thats free and only needs an email.

This sermon is about true and false conversion and examining ourselves. I think it's well worth a listen.

Tromos
12-04-2006, 10:54 AM
I've been going on the idea that this thread is about people who claim to be saved when they are not... And I've been addressing that issue not true Christians who struggle with sin.


But I think the real issue is not them. It's us. We cannot change the hearts of those who claim to be Christian and it's really irrelevant whether they are or not. What's relevant is that we are who we say we are and what Christ calls us to be. That, more than anything, will preach the Gospel to those around us. Looking as verses 11 and 12 of 1 Thes 4 that you quoted above, I think Paul stresses that the quiet, hard-working, honorable life shows the outsiders what a Christian is. In the words of St. Francis of Assisi, "Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."


I think the point of what Paul was saying is to not be a gossiper, not be rude etc. So that those around you have nothing to condemn you with.


Based on Paul's writing style, it seems that Paul was addressing a particular problem about which he had heard, namely, those who were not working but had quit their jobs and were lounging around the Christian community waiting for Jesus to come back. In their waiting, they started pointing out the flaws of others. I say this because of what Paul later writes in 2 Thes 3 where he rebukes the Thessalonian church by saying that if someone doesn't work, then he doesn't eat. Nobody needs a busybody and we each have enough personal spritual challenges that we don't need to be poking around someone else's without their invitation. I'm avoiding the speck / plank argument because I think people use that as a blanket excuse to avoid even preaching your faith, which was not the point.


My blog on Myspace (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=12701444&blogID=200476950&MyToken=0f943443-42c9-43ba-8ab7-8092220f365f)

This link is something I wrote on Saturday regarding this topic. It's in more detail than my posts here are.


I'll go read that soon. I don't have time this afternoon but I'm quite interested in what you have to say on this.

dawn of light
12-04-2006, 12:15 PM
Someone replied with "I wouldn't want to start judging who is a Christian and who isn't. I don't really know people's hearts, so I can't say."
Skynes, is this me you're quoting?

skynes
12-04-2006, 12:21 PM
Skynes, is this me you're quoting?

No. But since making that blog many people have said the exact the same thing, so indirectly yes.

dawn of light
12-04-2006, 12:24 PM
Ok. Who from this thread are you quoting?

skynes
12-04-2006, 12:31 PM
http://www.panheads.org/boards/showpost.php?p=317408&postcount=4

Here. Who said it wasn't important to me, but what was said. It's something I hear a lot so I was quoting more the idea.

But my way of doing things is confusing to others, so its just easier to use direct quotes.

But I think the real issue is not them. It's us.

People are on their way to hell believing they are saved, when they are not. I think that is the issue and their salvation is it.

dawn of light
12-04-2006, 12:40 PM
so its just easier to use direct quotes
Yes I agree. Which is why I was curious as to who you were quoting so I could read the whole post in context.

Tromos
12-05-2006, 05:24 AM
People are on their way to hell believing they are saved, when they are not. I think that is the issue and their salvation is it.

The issue? Whose issue? Sounds like their issue and God's issue. Why is it ours? We can't save them. We can't save anyone. We can be obedient and live the Gospel. Only God can change a heart.

bubblesemm
12-05-2006, 06:57 AM
the only reason why i even posted this thread is because i am struggling with feeling like i am the only person who is really trying to follow God.(notice that i said "feeling") now,i make mistakes too and i am by no means perfect, but i am tired of seeing so many people not truly following God. it is frustrating.well,ttul.check out "Christians 2?" for more details on what it was that i was trying to say.

skynes
12-05-2006, 07:34 AM
The issue? Whose issue? Sounds like their issue and God's issue. Why is it ours? We can't save them. We can't save anyone. We can be obedient and live the Gospel. Only God can change a heart.

And as I said before, where does preaching the Gospel come into this?

If I went solely by what you've said here. We should not preach the Gospel at all. We should point out sin. We should just live our lives quietly and without interferring with anyone.

We can't save anyone, but we can preach the Gospel. We can't change anyone's minds or hearts, but we can give them the Word of God.

Tromos
12-05-2006, 07:46 AM
If I went solely by what you've said here. We should not preach the Gospel at all.

If that's your interpretation, then you haven't been paying attention. When you preach, you should only open your mouth as a last resort. If you have to speak to preach, then the majority of your message (your life) may not be as effective as it should be. Shut your mouth and live your prophecy. ;)

skynes
12-05-2006, 07:50 AM
If that's your interpretation, then you haven't been paying attention. When you preach, you should only open your mouth as a last resort. If you have to speak to preach, then the majority of your message (your life) may not be as effective as it should be. Shut your mouth and live your prophecy. ;)

Support it with scripture please.

I look at John the Baptist, I see him preaching with words and also living it.
I look at Jesus and I see Him preaching with words and also living it.
I look at the Apostles and I see them preaching with words and also living it.

At which point does it say - do not preach.

bubblesemm
12-05-2006, 07:52 AM
ok guys,getting a little tense here.keep cool okay.i didn't mean to start world war 3.

Tromos
12-05-2006, 08:01 AM
ok guys,getting a little tense here.keep cool okay.i didn't mean to start world war 3.

Oh, I think we're doin OK. :)


And Skynes, I wasn't trying to make a Scriptural argument apart from the one I already made from 1 Thes 4. I'm trying to say that talk is cheap and any money-hungry preacher on TV can open their mouths and quote the Bible. The Gospels are full of the simple message: Hearing isn't enough. Speaking isn't enough. Even Satan can quote Scripture.

It comes back to your point - you must live it. If the Lord moves you to speak, then speak. But the way we live our lives will preach the Gospel louder than any words we speak and if we speak without a life that reflects the Truth, we weaken the Gospel message instead of spreading it. Live it, then speak it. Too many people want to talk first.

skynes
12-05-2006, 01:32 PM
Romans 10 13-14, 17

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Thank you, thank you. you're a wonderful audience.


ok guys,getting a little tense here.keep cool okay.i didn't mean to start world war 3.

Ah don't worry, I'm a good boy. I happen to have a mod looking over my shoulder right now (I mean that literally) so I have to be good *little angellic halo*

as~i~lay~dying
12-05-2006, 07:00 PM
------

Edit:
My blog on Myspace (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=12701444&blogID=200476950&MyToken=0f943443-42c9-43ba-8ab7-8092220f365f)

.

You should copy and paste it ... I am unable to get on myspace for some reason to read it ...

DarkestRose
12-05-2006, 10:18 PM
Ok. Who from this thread are you quoting?

I believe this was me, when I stated:

"I wouldn't want to start judging who is a Christian and who isn't. I don't really know people's hearts, so I can't say. I don't know why some people have such arduous struggles with certain sins. I do believe that Christians need to strive to live a life of righteousness, holiness and purity. I think the best thing to do is just to pray for people who are struggling in some area of sin and love them like Jesus who spent His life reaching out to sinners.

Everyone, even Christians, have at some point sinned willingly. We're all dysfunctional sinners. We all fall short of God's glory. So none of us have good cases. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive. God is bigger than anything we can do or any problem we can face."

Of course, I could be wrong about the me being quoted thing because I read the blog entry a few times and most of the arguments that were opposed are not ones I personally uphold. If someone has no spiritual fruit to speak of, I'm going to have questions, but I think the ultimate judgment is up to God.

I believe Christians should uphold the moral standard Scripture describes. If one is genuinely seeking God, one should be seeking God in the Word, in prayer, in worship and other spiritual disciplines. We should be living godly, Christ-like lives as we are fighting against (and repenting of) sin, and be sanctified by the Spirit. We are supposed to be speak the truth in love, and if coming across a self-proclaimed Christian boasting of some sin, it would be a good idea to privately approach them and point out what they need work on and further question them from there.

I just tentative when Christians start deciding who is saved and who is not. In the end, they answer to God, not us. I definately think that, with people who are self-proclaimed Christians but have nothing to show for it, we should be praying for them and preaching God and living our life in accordance to Scripture.

skynes
12-06-2006, 03:32 AM
I just tentative when Christians start deciding who is saved and who is not.

I wouldn't necessarily say we are 'deciding' who is saved. I look at it more that we are applying Jesus' teachings, that by their fruits you shall know them.

In the end, they answer to God, not us.

Generally yes.. but I can think of a few circumstances were leaving it to God won't work...

e.g. This wannabe Christian wants involved in the church. What do you do? Having them be a public face of the church would be disasterous for everyones work there and the entire community will judge the whole church by this one persons actions (believe me, I've seen it happen).

Another thing, if this person happens to be my friend, there is no way in hell I am gonna stand around while they dance down the path to death.


If someone has no spiritual fruit to speak of, I'm going to have questions, but I think the ultimate judgment is up to God.

I think this is more a definition problem in the thread. By the fact you are questioning them, you have already made a judgement. You have judged uncertainty regarding their salvation.

I don't mean beating them round the head and booming "YOU ARE NOT SAVED!!"
--------------------

It was your post I quoted, but it was less you that I was quoting and more the general idea surrounding that statement.

Tromos
12-06-2006, 04:33 AM
Thank you, thank you. you're a wonderful audience.

Don't hit your head on the ceiling. That pedestal you've climbed on is pretty tall ;) (<- that's a joke, btw, in case that wasn't clear)

I wasn't arguing that people shouldn't preach. I was pointing out that not everyone that preaches is qualified because their lives don't reflect their words. And, as you just pointed out, when people whose lives scream "THE WORLD" stand up and shout "GOD", they do more damage than good.

So, if you feel the need to stop people on the road to hell and give them directions, then please go right ahead. You probably won't keep many friends, but the ones you have will be amazing. That's irrelevant, of course, if you're following God's call. Personally, I don't think it's mine. So far I have been unable to follow that course with love in my heart. And if I have not love, then nothing I say is meaningful.

skynes
12-06-2006, 04:55 AM
Don't hit your head on the ceiling. That pedestal you've climbed on is pretty tall

*BUMP* OWWWW!!! That hurt... stupid ceiling... Who puts a ceiling in a place like this!? Really!?


I wasn't arguing that people shouldn't preach. I was pointing out that not everyone that preaches is qualified because their lives don't reflect their words. And, as you just pointed out, when people whose lives scream "THE WORLD" stand up and shout "GOD", they do more damage than good.

I'm struggling a little to keep up with what you're saying, so...

Given the context of people who claim to be saved yet they are not, could you summarize your entire point of view in one post?

So, if you feel the need to stop people on the road to hell and give them directions, then please go right ahead. You probably won't keep many friends, but the ones you have will be amazing.

Info about me: I don't have many friends either way. I never have kept many friends and I always do things alone. So whether I don't preach Christ and don't have friends or I do preach Christ and don't have friends makes little difference. I may as well do what's right.

Personally, I don't think it's mine. So far I have been unable to follow that course with love in my heart. And if I have not love, then nothing I say is meaningful.

And that's fine. I do think it's better to say nothing than say things badly. The obvious course of action would be to pray for love toward others daily.

...Now that I remember my Pastor got me to do that once, well more than once... Cause I used to struggle a lot (and still sometimes do) with hatred and bitterness and he asked me to daily pray that the love of Christ for others would fill my heart.

Tromos
12-06-2006, 05:15 AM
Given the context of people who claim to be saved yet they are not, could you summarize your entire point of view in one post?

Certainly. I got a little confused myself and my original point is not as strong as it was since I've seen the validity of some of your arguments.

Summary:
1) There are those that claim to be Christians but their lives do not, to us, appear to reflect that. We do not, however, know their circumstances and we should be very careful to examine our own hearts for bitterness, jealousy, etc. before we take any action regarding another. If what you have to say isn't true, out of love, and necessary then you should say nothing.

2) In general, the most effective way to preach the Gospel to the world is to live a Godly life. Talk is cheap and the fruit you bear will come more from your actions than your vocal preaching. Those who speak without love and the humility of a servant should keep their mouths shut.

3) Some people are called to spread the word of God vocally. Most are not. There is great temptation to insert yourself into a situation where you are not invited or welcome. Even if your words are true and the need is there, you had better make sure it's God directing you to intervene and not your puffed-up pride as a "holy" person. That being said, if you truly feel God has called you to intervene, then you'd best do as you're told.

bubblesemm
12-06-2006, 05:26 AM
ok guys,once again i just want to say that i was not judging them.i was just stating the obvious.i mean,the Bible does say that you shall know them by there fruits.this is not judging it's discerning.also,i don't mean to offend any one but alot of you are so worried about judging other people that you don't even realize whether or not someone is a true Christians or not ,and you have to be careful about hanging out with non-Christians or the likes there of because they can pull you away from God.now,i am not saying that i am perfect,cause by no means am i but at least i try to be.the people that i am referring to don't even try to live like God wants them to,at least not around me they don't.

bubblesemm
12-06-2006, 05:31 AM
please check out "help" by me in the "garden of gethsemone" thread thing.

Tromos
12-06-2006, 05:54 AM
this is not judging it's discerning

Oooo...there's another good topic for discussion! ;D

Sorry Emily. It's not that Scotty and I intended to turn your thread into a personal debate between the two of us while the rest of the people here lost interest and drifted away. It just kind of happened that way. :-[

It was fun though :afro:

dawn of light
12-06-2006, 06:04 AM
while the rest of the people here lost interest
Far from it. Very fascinating in my opinion.

Tromos
12-06-2006, 06:45 AM
Far from it. Very fascinating in my opinion.

Lurking Rachel? ;D

MeNtAlCaSe
12-06-2006, 07:07 AM
Certainly. I got a little confused myself and my original point is not as strong as it was since I've seen the validity of some of your arguments.

Summary:
1) There are those that claim to be Christians but their lives do not, to us, appear to reflect that. We do not, however, know their circumstances and we should be very careful to examine our own hearts for bitterness, jealousy, etc. before we take any action regarding another. If what you have to say isn't true, out of love, and necessary then you should say nothing.

yep....words are like bullets, once the leave the opening, there ain't NOTHING you can do to call them back.



2) In general, the most effective way to preach the Gospel to the world is to live a Godly life. Talk is cheap and the fruit you bear will come more from your actions than your vocal preaching. Those who speak without love and the humility of a servant should keep their mouths shut.
see every "christian" figure that has talked the talk and NOT walked the walk. One of the devil's most effective methods for turning people away from God.



3) Some people are called to spread the word of God vocally. Most are not. There is great temptation to insert yourself into a situation where you are not invited or welcome. Even if your words are true and the need is there, you had better make sure it's God directing you to intervene and not your puffed-up pride as a "holy" person. That being said, if you truly feel God has called you to intervene, then you'd best do as you're told.
Yeah, ask Jonah.

dawn of light
12-06-2006, 08:13 AM
Lurking Rachel? ;D
Most definitely!

DarkestRose
12-06-2006, 12:08 PM
I think this is more a definition problem in the thread. By the fact you are questioning them, you have already made a judgement. You have judged uncertainty regarding their salvation.

I would question people, not in uncertainty of, "are you really a Christian?" But are you sure you're right with God in doing this?

fifi la bomba
12-07-2006, 08:47 AM
i love to watch you guys banter at each other.... really interesting!

Tromos
12-07-2006, 09:11 AM
Were we bantering, Scott? I thought we were fencing. ???


;)

skynes
12-07-2006, 09:17 AM
Were we bantering, Scott? I thought we were fencing. ???


;)

Fencing... without protective gear. So watch those eyes please.

fifi la bomba
12-07-2006, 09:51 AM
hahaha that's what im talking about... bantering.

aliengurl7
12-07-2006, 02:27 PM
"you will know them by their fruit,"

Jesus wasn't speaking of believers when he said that but of false prophets.
Bubbles, its her life and if she chooses to live the way she wants then let her, there's really nothing you can do, but to set a good example.

riz
12-07-2006, 05:53 PM
Which makes sense, because if we constantly accuse them than they will only get mad and harden.

Sentence of the WEEK. Read it, everyone. Read it. This is like the truest thing in the world.

unshakeable15
12-07-2006, 10:58 PM
Just curious, does this thread have a different purpose to it than the other thread (part 1), or was it just to escape Skynes and Tromos' back and forth?

If it was the first, please clarify, or this thread will be merged into the other.

If it was the second, this thread will be merged into the other (the beauty of online conversations is that you can talk around people more easily than in real life; just remember to quote who you are talking to/about so the conversations don't bleed into each other unintentionally).

Tromos
12-08-2006, 04:55 AM
...or was it just to escape Skynes and Tromos' back and forth?

Drat. Foiled again >:(

I'll be good now. I promise.

(at least on this topic ;D )

NightCrawler
12-08-2006, 01:44 PM
Nihil ergo nunc est damnationis his qui sunt in Christo Iesu qui non secundum carnem ambulant
Romanos 8:1, Latin Vulgate anno 405

NightCrawler
12-08-2006, 02:05 PM
Ah don't worry, I'm a good boy. I happen to have a mod looking over my shoulder right now (I mean that literally) so I have to be good *little angellic halo*

Okay, there are a lot of cute things on the entire boards.

But let's take a moment to go "awwwwwww."

dawn of light
12-08-2006, 09:10 PM
awwwwwww

bubblesemm
12-11-2006, 07:46 AM
Just curious, does this thread have a different purpose to it than the other thread (part 1), or was it just to escape Skynes and Tromos' back and forth?

If it was the first, please clarify, or this thread will be merged into the other.

If it was the second, this thread will be merged into the other (the beauty of online conversations is that you can talk around people more easily than in real life; just remember to quote who you are talking to/about so the conversations don't bleed into each other unintentionally).

No,this was made to help clarify the first thread.

unshakeable15
12-14-2006, 02:16 PM
No,this was made to help clarify the first thread.
Generally, that's best done in the thread. Making another thread about it just confuses the matter even more. (which is why i merged them into one, to help clear up the confusion)