So, I was talking to this guy today, and he says that Revalation indicates that the rapture will be somewhere in the middle of the tribulation. I'm not sure where he got that from, but I've always heard that Jesus comes back before the judgments. I'm thinking he got Jesus' return mixed up...I know he comes two times, first to rapture the church and then to set up his kingdom (correct me if I'm wrong, please). Just thought I could get some insight. Thanks. :)

~*Tiff*~

He is what is known as a mid-trib believer.I am not sure where they get the thought from but they believe rapture will happen during the middle of the tribulation.
I like you believe that the rapture will happen before the GT...because after the the third chapter of Revelations the church or the saints are not mentioned again until he comes back with them(the saints) to set up his kingdom.
It just seems more comforting to me to believe we wont have to see any of the tribulation period.
So i believe you are correct with your thinking :)

Rev. 14.14-16 says: I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take you sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

since that's in the middle of Revelations, that might have given rise to the pre-trib views on the rapture. *shrugs* i don't really care when i get raptured; i only care in the fact that i am getting raptured & how many more people i can drag along with me. ;)

Originaly I was just going to say something on GT but then I figured, I might as well go all out. So...

Let's start by laying a foundation for all Topics.
1st: We need to understand that God’s Word is the final authority and the standard for all revelations.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

All revelation should move us into perfection in Christ, and have relevance in our daily lives. It should enable us to walk in a better relationship with Jesus Christ.

2nd: In the His Word, Jesus speaks in a langauge (parables or the use of types and terms) that natural thinking cannot understand (Isaiah 28:11). Knowing we are to "study to show our selves approved", how should we go about it then?

Isaiah 28:10 “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.”

The Word of God interprets the Word of God! There are four basic ways to let this work out.

1. First, see if the term is defined or explained in the passage where it is used.

2. Second, see if the types and terms are explained by Jesus’s own words or by the words of the prophets.

3. Third, look to all the occurrences of that type or term throughout scripture to discern its usual meaning.

4. Sometimes types or terms that have been defined using the above approach can be used to define other types and terms. “Precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept…”

Note: (Check the Hebrew and Greek words and definitions while doing this for better clarity). This pattern of study does not reveal His Word, the Lord does that. This just opens the door to allow Him to "quicken" His Word to us!

Example: We have all heard about New Jerusalem, it’s pearly gates, walls of precious stones, and streets of gold. New Jerusalem is generally regarded as a physical city that will come out of the sky but does God’s Word really say this? Lets take a look…

Rev 21:9 “And one of the seven angels came to me, he having the seven bowls being filled with the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he carried me in spirit onto a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, holy Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God,”

The angel is showing us the “Bride, wife of the Lamb” in the “Spirit” is “New Jerusalem”. This clearly shows that New Jerusalem is not a physical city but a type or term for the Bride of Christ!
The only way into the city is through the Pearly gates. Jesus mentioned a pearl in one of His parables, “The Pearl of Great Price”! In order to enter this spiritual city you have to sell out, and attain the Great Pearl. It is a golden city, gold represents divinity or purity (gold tried in the fire). We are to have a divine life (being in the city) and walk (the streets).

Now that we have a frame work with which to study, and help each other grow in the truth of the Lord, we can discuss. And Please remember, 1 Cor. 13:2 "And though I... understand all mysteries and all knowledge... but have not Love, I am nothing."

Popular belief has Jesus riding on a cloud, coming to snatch the church away. Some scriptures are used to support this belief but there are others that contradict it. God cannot contradict Himself, so the error must be in how we are interpreting these. Using the His Word to interpret His Word lets take a closer look.
Scripture seems to indicate that there will be a removing, but of who?

Prov. 10:30 “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

Matt 13:30 “Allow both to grow together until the harvest. And in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather the tares, and bind them into bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Matt 13:36-43 Jesus explains the parable of tares and wheat.

v. 38 “The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;”

v. 41 “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;”

v. 43 “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

What is the “first” thing done in v. 30? The tares (wicked) are being removed from the wheat (righteous), not the other way around! In addition, this is the harvest (v. 39) not Christ’s return before the millennium. Notice that who is gathered is, “out of His Kingdom”, lukewarm Christians (Not ponting fingures, this goes for me too) beware (Rev. 3:16)! This is done so that the righteous can shine forth (v. 43).

1 Thes 4:17 “Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

The Greek word for “air” is “aer” which means lower denser air (around 20 feet). This leaves two questions. How can a cloud be around us down here and who are those that we shall be joined with “in the clouds”?

Heb 12:1 “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,”

We will be caught up into the spiritual, “in this world but not of it” and joined with a great cloud of witnesses. When Jesus was transfigured on the mount, His disciples were able to see this cloud of witnesses.

Mat 17:3-4 “And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him...”

There is two Greek words for coming, Parousia and Erchomai. Parousia is translated 25 times in the New Testament as the word “coming”. The meaning of Parousia is centered on a “presencing” or “appearing”. Erchomia means to come from one place and go to another. Erchomia is the translation that is often mistakenly used when referring to Christ’s Second Coming because…

Luke 17:20-21 “The kingdom of God cometh (Erchomia) not with observation: Neither shall they say, look here! Or, look there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Luke 21:27 “And then shall they see the Son of man coming (appearing) in a cloud with power and great glory.”

2 Thes 1:10 “When he shall come to be glorified in his saints…”

v. 12 “ That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you…”

These witnesses’ relationship with Him will be so strong that they will be able to say, “If you have seen me you have seen Jesus” because He will be living through them...

Gal 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in (through) me…”

“The Second Coming”, is the Lord appearing (Parousia) in His people. A Bride of sold out witnesses, which are without spot or blemish! This will all come when a generation seeks a sold out intimate relationship with the Lord, I believe that we are this generation!

I don't believe in the rapture cus nothings convinced me of it. When I read the scriptures that support it I see something totally different.
I guess I'm like this cus I was never taught to believe or not to believe in the rapture but was left to make up my own mind.

I think that if there was any kind of rapture its the sinners that'll be taken.

Alot of Christians not all but alot at least that I know have dragged salvation through works in using the rapture. They say oh if u aren't 'this' spiritual do 'these' things and pray 'this' often ur gonna miss the rapture and be stuck on earth during the tribulation and the plagues.

To me that has salvation though works written all over it!

Luke 17:20-21 “The kingdom of God cometh (Erchomia) not with observation: Neither shall they say, look here! Or, look there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”


See this is talking about the Kingdom of God. And not the second coming of Jesus Christ, which is descibed a lot diffrent:

Rev 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Col 1:13
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

So we are already in the Kingdom. That is why Jesus said that it can't be observed by the eye. But the return of Jesus will be seen and heard. Like thunder across the sky.


I'll have to be with my Bible prog to do a more in depth study on these verses and words. Back later.

I don't believe in the rapture cus nothings convinced me of it. When I read the scriptures that support it I see something totally different.
I guess I'm like this cus I was never taught to believe or not to believe in the rapture but was left to make up my own mind.

I think that if there was any kind of rapture its the sinners that'll be taken.



Alot of Christians not all but alot at least that I know have dragged salvation through works in using the rapture. They say oh if u aren't 'this' spiritual do 'these' things and pray 'this' often ur gonna miss the rapture and be stuck on earth during the tribulation and the plagues.

To me that has salvation though works written all over it!


Skynes, ignore what everyone else says. John 3:16 says "For God so loved that world, he gave his only begotten son; so whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." The requirement for salvation is believing. Not praying a certain amount, not doing good works, just believing. The requirement for going to heaven is believing, not praying a certain amount, not doing good works, just believing. It's easy to be influenced in your beliefs by people around you, but in the end, if the word of God doesn't line up with what they're saying, it's all worthless. Always take it back to the scriptures.

As for everyone else, I'm sure you have a lot of good things to say about this, but I'm very tired and will read them tommorow. Nighty night.

~*Tiff*~

to be honest, there's no real solid evidence to state that we're pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trip. valid arguments exist on all sides.

but that doesn't mean we can't still discuss.

i'm typically a pre-trib, but i believe things have to happen to the church first to get us ready, because there's no way we're the spotless Bride He wants right now. judgement begins in the house of God. (i think that verse is found in 1 Peter somewhere.)

“to be honest, there's no real solid evidence to state that we're pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trip”

I don’t believe in any of them, because I don’t believe that the Ekklesia (body of Christ) is going to leave the planet. As it’s been said, scripture points to the wicked getting taken out, not the righteous.

Also, The Pre-Trib theory has the ekklesia taken from the earth in Rev 4; that leaves out 18 Chapters of the Bible! Paul clearly states in 2 Tim 3:16 that ALL scripture is relevant to us. I don't know where Mid-Trib leaves off but that's still leaving out scripture. And I don't know anything about Post-Trib, so I can't comment on it.

“It just seems more comforting to me to believe we wont have to see any of the tribulation period.”

That’s 1 of the big reasons why the rapture bothers me so much. Judgment comes to the house of God 1st! So, what do think might happen to those who think they are going to escape when the trials come?

1Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

2Th 1:5 "Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer"

We escape the wrath that comes on the world because we are submissive to God’s judgments on us, kinda like going to your Dad and telling Him you did something wrong. You will be corrected but not near as bad as if you tried to hid it and then you tried to resist Him (1 Peter 4:17).

“See this is talking about the Kingdom of God. And not the second coming of Jesus Christ, which is descibed a lot diffrent:”

I was giving it in reference that the Kingdom is within us; if the Body goes, the Kingdom goes. Erchomia basically means to go from point A to point B. The Kingdom is not going to get taken off the earth (A) by the Body of Christ being raptured, going to Heaven (B) and then come back to earth (A) sometime later. My other purpose is to show the difference between Echomia and Parousia.

“I'll have to be with my Bible prog to do a more in depth study on these verses and words. Back later.”

Look fwd to hearing from ya. 8)

Underdog you take some scriptures too much out of context to get a doctrine. First. God painted 1 picture. So if we don't take all scriptures into account we loose colors or images or objects.

Why must the bride be taken out of the earth?

2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

I didn't check the greek yet, so I'm taking that the earth as we know it will be destroyed

Second coming of christ, the



Time of, unknown
Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32

CALLED THE
Times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord
Acts 3:19
Times of restitution of all things
Acts 3:21; Romans 8:21
Last time
1 Peter 1:5
Appearing of Jesus Christ
1 Peter 1:7
Revelation of Jesus Christ
1 Peter 1:13
Glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour
Titus 2:13
Coming of the day of God
2 Peter 3:12
Day of our Lord Jesus Christ
1 Corinthians 1:8

FORETOLD BY
Prophets
Daniel 7:13; Jude 1:14
Himself
Matthew 25:31; John 14:3
Apostles
Acts 3:20; 1 Timothy 6:14
Angels
Acts 1:10,11

Signs preceding
Matthew 24:3-51

The Manner of
In clouds
Matthew 24:30; 26:64; Revelation 1:7
In the glory of his Father
Matthew 16:27
In his own glory
Matthew 25:31
In flaming fire
2 Thessalonians 1:8
With power and great glory
Matthew 24:30
As he ascended
Acts 1:9,11
With a shout and the voice of the Archangel
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Accompanied by Angels
Matthew 16:27; 25:31; Mark 8:38; 2 Thessalonians 1:7
With his saints
1 Thessalonians 3:13; Jude 1:14
Suddenly
Mark 13:36
Unexpectedly
Matthew 24:44; Luke 12:40
As a thief in the night
1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 16:15
As the lightning
Matthew 24:27

The heavens and earth shall be dissolved, &c at
2 Peter 3:10,12

They who shall have died in Christ shall rise first at
1 Thessalonians 4:16

The saints alive at, shall be caught up to meet him
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Is not to make atonement
Hebrews 9:28; Romans 6:9,10; Hebrews 10:14

THE PURPOSES OF, ARE TO
Complete the salvation of saints
Hebrews 9:28; 1 Peter 1:5
Be glorified in his saints
2 Thessalonians 1:10
Be admired in them that believe
2 Thessalonians 1:10
Bring to light the hidden things of darkness
1 Corinthians 4:5
Judge
Psalms 50:3,4; John 5:22; 2 Timothy 4:1; Jude 1:15; Revelation 20:11-13
Reign
Isaiah 24:23; Daniel 7:14; Revelation 11:15
Destroy death
1 Corinthians 15:25,26

Every eye shall see him at
Revelation 1:7

Should be always considered as at hand
Romans 13:12; Philippians 4:5; 1 Peter 4:7

Blessedness of being prepared for
Matthew 24:46; Luke 12:37,38

SAINTS
Assured of
Job 19:25,26
Love
2 Timothy 4:8
Look for
Philippians 3:20; Titus 2:13
Wait for
1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:10
Haste to
2 Peter 3:12
Pray for
Revelation 22:20
Should be ready for
Matthew 24:44; Luke 12:40
Should watch for
Matthew 24:42; Mark 13:35-37; Luke 21:36
Should be patient to
2 Thessalonians 3:5; James 5:7,8

Shall be preserved to
Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 4:18; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:24

Shall not be ashamed at
1 John 2:28; 4:17

Shall be blameless at
1 Corinthians 1:8; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 5:23; Jude 1:24

Shall be like him at
Philippians 3:21; 1 John 3:2

Shall see him as he is, at
1 John 3:2

Shall appear with him in glory at
Colossians 3:4

Shall receive a crown of glory at
2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4

Shall reign with him at
Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:10; 20:6; 22:5

Faith of, shall be found to praise at
1 Peter 1:7

THE WICKED
Scoff at
2 Peter 3:3,4
Presume upon the delay of
Matthew 24:48
Shall be surprised by
Matthew 24:37-39; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 2 Peter 3:10
Shall be punished at
2 Thessalonians 1:8,9

The man of sin to be destroyed at
2 Thessalonians 2:8

Illustrated
Matthew 25:6; Luke 12:36,39; 19:12,15

So, I was talking to this guy today, and he says that Revalation indicates that the rapture will be somewhere in the middle of the tribulation. I'm not sure where he got that from, but I've always heard that Jesus comes back before the judgments. I'm thinking he got Jesus' return mixed up...I know he comes two times, first to rapture the church and then to set up his kingdom (correct me if I'm wrong, please). Just thought I could get some insight. Thanks. :)

~*Tiff*~

??
umm...?

Skynes, ignore what everyone else says. John 3:16 says "For God so loved that world, he gave his only begotten son; so whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." The requirement for salvation is believing. Not praying a certain amount, not doing good works, just believing. The requirement for going to heaven is believing, not praying a certain amount, not doing good works, just believing. It's easy to be influenced in your beliefs by people around you, but in the end, if the word of God doesn't line up with what they're saying, it's all worthless. Always take it back to the scriptures.



God gave me an intelligent mind for a reason, to use it. I don't just hear something then believe it. I will look at various sides and various scriptures then make up my own mind.

If there will be a rapture I believe it'll be ALL Christians going, not just some. However I'm more convinced that its the sinners that'll go. The whole one is taken one is
left thing? The verse before it said along the lines of

The sinners drinking and marrying and giving in marriage then the flood came and took them all away, so the coming of the Son of Man shall be. Two men will working in the field one shall be taken one shall be left... etc.

From that it looks like the one taken is a sinner NOT a Christian.

See I don't believe there's gonna be a rapture. Cause there is no scriptural evidence.

Firstly the Godly, must be taken out of the earth, cause the earth will be destroyed, by God's judgement.

Huh?

I don't think the godly have to be removed before judgement. I mean Noah wasn't taken out of the world when it was destroyed by the flood. He was still in it but he was safe.
I think the same thing could happen. the worlds being judged whilst we're still here.

I think it will be necessary, since Peter says that the earth will melt away.

The heavens and earth shall be dissolved, &c at
2 Peter 3:10,12

it's impossible to stay here. There's not gonna be a here.

What if all the scriptures just describes diffrent parts of the return of Christ. See it will be one of the biggest events ever, so there could happen a lot of things at his return. Never is raptured even mentioned in Scripture.

Specificly the word rapture.

What if the scriptures used to establish that there must be a rapture, just points to what will happen when Christ returns?

PLS try make sense of what I'm saying. :)

Huh?

I don't think the godly have to be removed before judgement. I mean Noah wasn't taken out of the world when it was destroyed by the flood. He was still in it but he was safe.
I think the same thing could happen. the worlds being judged whilst we're still here.


What about the Israelites?
They were in Egypt, while God put plagues on the egyptians? Then they moved out of Egypt, under leadership of their 'saviour' Moses.

The lambs blood on the doorpost = Christ's Sacrifice in this world, freeing us from Judgement. The Holy Spirit given as a promise of What Jesus has prepared for us.

The Christians don't have to be taken out of the world, before tribulation can come.

I understand what u mean. Christ's return is gonna be sooo huge and sooo dramatic that it can't be accurately described in just one place.

Peter's heavens and earth being melted.
Look at that description carefully... Peter is describing a nuclear bomb.
Heaven and earth shall pass away with a great noise the earth and the works therein shall be burnt up etc.
Its a nuke.

Here's my idea. The hail and fire mixed with blood and the burning mountain crashing into the ocean is a meteor. Humans know its coming so they nuke it. The nuke makes "the great noise".
But a deep Impact thing happens. They don't destroy it they shatter it. Raining upon earth with "hail and fire" a big chunk of it hits the ocean like "a great burning mountain"

Thats my idea on that bit.


Ur right about the Israelites they were IN Egypt when the plagues happened. THEN they went to the promised land.
God knows his people, he can protect them ALL from the plagues to come.

Hey Xon, umm…I’m not following where you’re going. You’re saying that…

“it's impossible to stay here. There's not gonna be a here.”

And then…

“The Christians don't have to be taken out of the world, before tribulation can come.”

So, how do those 2 combine in what you believe? Also, what do you feel I’m taking out of context?

2 Peter 3:10
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

Ok…

2Pe 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private (or single) interpretation.”

There are 3 basic categories for interpreting scripture: Personal (how it applies to my life), Corporate (How it applies to the body of Christ), and Rhema (Or literal). Personal and corporate usually involve types and shadow, which we look to the rest of scripture to give the meaning. Concerning Rhema, remember that Peter didn’t go and start a farm after John 21:16-17.

Personal:
“…in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat…”

2Co 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

2Co 4:7 “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”

1Co 15:47 “The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”

Earth relates to us in the natural and is a type for our soul (an sometimes carnality); heaven relates to the spiritual and is a type for our spirit.

“…both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

1Co 3:13 “Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.”

1Pe 1:7 “That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:”

Psalm 107:25-26 “For HE [GOD] commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof. [These stormy winds fulfill HIS WORD.] They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths [God IS touching EVERY high and low place in our lives.]: their SOUL [MIND (What we think!), EMOTIONS (What we feel!) and WILL (What we want!)] is melted because of trouble. [THEREFORE REJOICE in the midst of TROUBLE!] – Comment by Joel Killion

We along with our works will be tried to know if they are of the Lord or not.

As for Rhema, maybe the Lord will melt the universe and start afresh. I don’t find us leaving the earth, as “heaven” will be gone too, possibly come about something like “Rack, Shack an Benny”.

To give a taste of what the judgments in The Revelation of Jesus Christ really are…

Isa 28:17 “Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.”

1Pe 1:24 “For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:”

U make a good point dog. Never thought of the earth and works stc would be people not the planet.

Thats where xon confused me too. 1st he says there isn't a rapture then says the godly have to be taken out... Maybe he's schizophrenic!? LOL!

First: Prophecy is only interpreted by the Holy Spirit, he made it and understands it. There is NO technique in interpreting prophecy, except to receive it.

This is so because, Jesus and Father and the Spirit is only One.

There is 1 Spirit, so there is only His interpretation.

maybe the Lord will melt the universe and start afresh

Joh 15:15 - Show Context
No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Jesus has already made known in the scriptures what will happen at his second coming. God has to start afresh, cause sin is in the world, not just the human race. The earth itself is cursed and will not be part of what God has planned.

Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

2Pe 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private (or single) interpretation.”
I disagree with that interpretation. I can't find ne thing that points to 'private' meaning 'single'.

I rather find that the verse means that the interpretation of scripture by man is futile, in that he uses his own wisdom. Rather the verse says that we should rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning of the scriptures. Also this verse does not refer to the New Testament. It refers to the 'the Prophecy' - which was the Old Testament (Scriptures of the Jews). So this verse can't be applied to scripture from the New Testament.

Peter didn't write prophecy here, it was revelation to the Scriptures. He was explaining the scriptures.

So if earth has to be destroyed and restarted why does heaven have to be restarted? Sin isn't in heaven?
I think that there's a new heaven and earth due to the fact that evil is finally defeated. All can live in peace.

All the prophets and the law prophesied until John, Mt. 11:13.
And the evangelists and the apostles have written the history of what was before delivered as prophecy. Now the accomplishment of the Old Testament by the New, and the agreeableness of the New Testament to the Old, are a full demonstration of the truth of both. Read the Old Testament as a prophecy of Christ, and with diligence and thankfulness use the New as the best exposition of the Old.

From:
Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
on the Whole Bible

So if earth has to be destroyed and restarted why does heaven have to be restarted? Sin isn't in heaven?

Because...

Job 15:15
... and heaven isn't pure in His sight...

Job 14:12 - Show Context
So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep.


Isa 34:4
All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.


Isa 51:6 - Show Context
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, And look on the earth beneath. For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment, And those who dwell in it will die in like manner; But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished.

sa 65:17 - Show Context
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

Isa 66:22 - Show Context
"For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the Lord, "So shall your descendants and your name remain.

2Pe 3:7 - Show Context
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:13 - Show Context
Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Just thot I'd let u know that there's actually 3 words translated as heaven

One is the word meaning sky

one is the word meaning space

the third is the heaven that God lives in.

Isa 34:4
All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

this matches the hail and fire mixed with blood theory I have bout the meteor. Its not heaven that gets dissolved but space. or even earths sky.

I don't think Job 15:15 is talking bout God's home. There's no way that heaven God's celestial throne could be impure.

I thought about that when I got the verses. I'll go check it out. I just can't now, cause I am at work and don't have access to original texts.

If you want a real good Bible program, try e-Sword. It's the best free Bible program out there. And because it's free, doesn't mean it is cheap. This is almost just as good as the Logos Library System, but with no costs!

The best one is the KJV with the original text mixed with the English text, with a Strong's explanatory beside the words.

The Bible Software:
http://www.e-sword.net/files/setup705.exe

Try their Home Page for more books.
http://www.e-sword.net/

I know bout dat site. Was told about it on Sunday. when I get PC fixed I'm gonna get it. NKJV is all I use so I'll just get the basic and then NKJV.

“There is NO technique in interpreting prophecy, except to receive it.”

Agreed. I wasn’t saying the we can interpret it ourselves. The best we can do is to be open and listening for His voice and study to show ourselves approved.

“There is 1 Spirit, so there is only His interpretation.”

Yes, and He sees everything as pure light, so now we ask… Does anyone have all the light? Does God reveal all the light to any one person on earth today? I’m sure you agree that He doesn’t, and that our revelation then is partial. So then, how can what we have be light if it is not complete?
We see sunlight as clear, but when we place it though a prism it becomes broken into different colors (parts). We are 1 body many parts, only when all the colors come together does pure light come forth.

Let me rephrase what I said earlier. There are 3 main applications to a revelation: Personal (how it applies to my life), Corporate (How it applies to the body of Christ), and Rhema (Or literal). God does things in 3’s: Father, Son, Spirit; Passover, Pentecost, Feast of Tabernacles; 30 fold, 60 fold, 100 fold; etc…

“Just thot I'd let u know that there's actually 3 words translated as heaven”

I understand there being 3 heavens’ in context of being a place (Rhema). The 1st heaven is what we see and move in, the 2nd heaven is where principalities and powers dwell, and the 3rd Heaven is where God’s throne is.
(Personal) Earth and Heaven relates to our natural and spiritual being…

Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me,”

Eze 36:26-27 “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”


So, to clarify…we agree that the body of Christ will be here through the tribulation right?


As for the manifestation of a Rhema word with the heavens and earth being vaporized…

Isa 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.”

So, the trash would have to be removed, cause there is no remembrance of it. If we are to be taken off the earth for that the wicked would have to be gone 1st…

Prov. 10:30 “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

But even then it still says the righteous will never be removed…

I didn't have the pages available last night. Sor.

I still think the earth as it is now, can't be part of the new creation, for it is cursed by God. See Gen 3.

Although I agree with you Underdog about all you said, I just can't agree with the last statement at the moment, yet.

Prov. 10:30 “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

"The righteous shall never be removed" It doesn't say that they won't be removed from the earth. it just says that they won't be removed:

I think God is meaning here that the righteous won't be destroyed. And that the wicked will be destroyed.

I think Psalms 37:38 states it better:
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off.

Following ur arguement in a sense we're cursed by God too. So then we can't be part of the new creation either.

I think this world WILL be part of the new creation but it will have been fixed. Put back to what it was a perfect world were everything is "all good"

“Following ur arguement in a sense we're cursed by God too. So then we can't be part of the new creation either.”

1 Cor 15:21-22 “For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.”

1Co 15:44-45 “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit.”

1Co 15:50-51 “And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.”
"I still think the earth as it is now, can't be part of the new creation, for it is cursed by God. See Gen 3."

I fully agree with that, just trying to figure out how that happens. I believe that the earth will be restored and the curse reversed as His Kingdom is established on earth.

Joel 2:3 "a fire devours before it, and a flame burns behind it. The land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them is a desolate wilderness; yea, also there is no escape to them."
Rev 22:22-23 "In the midst of its street and of the river, from here and from there, was a tree of life producing twelve fruits: according to one month each yielding its fruit. And the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations. And every curse will no longer be. And the throne of God and the Lamb will be in it; and His slaves will serve Him."

The fire would destroy all that is not of the Lord untill there is nothing left but the Garden of Eden. "The leaves are for the healing of the nations", gives me the impression that the healing is gradual.

"The righteous shall never be removed" It doesn't say that they won't be removed from the earth. it just says that they won't be removed:

I think God is meaning here that the righteous won't be destroyed. And that the wicked will be destroyed.

I think Psalms 37:38 states it better:
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off.”

Ya that’s true of it too. My thought is, that the wicked can’t inhabit the earth even when their being destroyed. If there are wicked here then there must be righteous (prov 10:30). Now if the wicked were to be whipped out, and then the righteous be moved else where for purification…well I guess that could be. :- I just see it as a Egypt/Goshen or Rack, Shack an Benny thing; in the middle of it but not hurt by it.

::) Personally I don't think we should be spending this much time on the issue. Like you look around at what other Christians are doing and like there is so so so many consentrating on new theories and when Jesus is coming back and how. I mean its important and stuff and truat me I am excited but like shouldn't we be concentrating on like let's see getting people to see who God really is or improving our relationship w/ Jesus. Like Jesus didn't spend that much time on the issue so why should we?All He did was try to help and free them not discuss the end times!Sorry I just get really frustrated...There are some many hurting people and most of the articles,alot of books, and a ton of people are consentrating on the end times. cause its like come on we r never going to no until it happens when Jesus comes back not even He knows only God the Father does.

Ummm... all I want to know is if you guys think it's gonna happen. I read "Revelation Unveiled" by Tim LaHaye (I think that was the book) and what he said made sense... but all I want you guys to do is pick it up and read it so you know the Rapture side of the story, if you haven't. Living on the Earth when the Tribulation is here... I dunno, it'd be tough... not a seven years I'd look forward to.