Shattered_Life
12-16-2006, 12:07 PM
Umm.

So.

My mom got this book called the Abominable Sin of Cross Dressing. The book talks about how it's basically a sin if women wear pants, cut their hair, or wear makeup. It says no parts of the leg should be exposed...men shouldn't wear necklaces or have their ears pierced or whatever...all because it means you're basically doomed for hell if you do.

Ever since she got this she's forcing the beliefs of the book on me...and now she wants me to write a report on the book, giving examples of the pros and cons.

Well, mind you my beliefs are so different with religion things than hers, so this is going to be one heck of a report.

I'm asking for some of your opinions on the way women should dress. Don't get me wrong, I'm for modesty, but not to the point that it's a total sin if you go in public with a pair of jeans on. I think men can wear jewelry. Women can cut their hair and wear makeup.

And the whole cross dressing part in the book refers to ANY article of clothing that represents a man. Pants and manly looking shirts.

This book also bothers me because it says if your job requires you to wear pants at work, you need to find a new job. No thank you, but I am NOT quitting my job because they make me wear pants.

Opinions, please. And thank you.

skilletosis
12-16-2006, 12:51 PM
A simple answer is this. John 3:16-For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

There are scriptures that address modesty, but I would start with this one first.

terrasin
12-16-2006, 01:21 PM
Another thing is that style changes with culture. I believe the verse is more along the definition that men should not wear clothing specifically designed for a woman, and vice-versa. Also, if men weren't allowed to wear necklaces, is then the Pope going to hell as well for wearing gold jewelry?

I don't care much for these Christian self-help books because they tend to be more opinion oriented than biblical.

CJ

Shattered_Life
12-16-2006, 01:58 PM
I don't care much for these Christian self-help books because they tend to be more opinion oriented than biblical.

Word.

skynes
12-16-2006, 03:26 PM
I don't care much for these Christian self-help books because they tend to be more opinion oriented than biblical.

Yeah they do... It's highly irritating.

Krystal here's what I would do:

Write the report. But on a Biblical foundation.

Where the book uses scripture (if it does) go find those verses and learn the context, if you can't find the context, ask here and we'll help find it.

Find other verses which speak on what sin is, punishments for sin etc. and include those.

If the book says: Women wearing pants is a sin.
Go to the 10 commandments, go to Jesus' beatitudes, go to Romans 1's list of sins. Write what they say and pose the question "In these foundational verses of holiness and sin, does it say anything about womens clothing?"

Look to the verses which say "man looks to the outward appearance but God looks to the heart" and include them.

So when you're done you'll have a good report on sin and holiness and how it pertains to clothing.

Shattered_Life
12-16-2006, 04:02 PM
Good idea skynes. This is due on Monday (i'm homeschooled) and I'll use some of those ideas...thanks.

Shattered_Life
12-18-2006, 06:10 AM
Look to the verses which say "man looks to the outward appearance but God looks to the heart" and include them.

Could someone please find that for me? I'm having a hard time doing it myself. Thanks.

skynes
12-18-2006, 06:53 AM
John 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

1 Samuel 16:7 "But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." "

Shattered_Life
12-19-2006, 03:48 PM
Awesome. Thanks.

NightCrawler
12-21-2006, 06:53 PM
:: jumps into thread ::

I like girl's hair longer, typically. But I saw this cute teller the other day, and she recently cut her hair. She is STILL pretty cute.

skilletfreak101
12-24-2006, 06:34 AM
my mom wore jeans today...i guess she's going to hell

eowyn
12-24-2006, 08:24 AM
I like the idea of wearing skirts and always pulling my hair up, mainly because the idea of an older sense of fashion appeals to me. I don't wear many skirts right now, because I can't afford to revamp my wardrobe. But, when I make a little more money, I would like to dress very traditionally. However, I think it should be a personal preferance thing and I agree immensely with those who state that the context of the verse is key. Dress tastefully and modestly, but, if someone feels called to wear skirts and such, don't look down on them. I know many homeschoolers in my community who feel that the women should dress more conservatively so as to draw attention to the heart more than the face. That's what I would like to encourage in my children (future). But, I don't necessarily feel called to dress all of my girls in skirts.

NightCrawler
12-24-2006, 04:20 PM
Hey everyone! Forget the book. Look at the Bible!!

Deut 22:
5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

skilletfreak101
12-24-2006, 05:33 PM
Hey everyone! Forget the book. Look at the Bible!!

Deut 22:
5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.
that's why i don't like emo guys...they wear women pants :-P

BarlowgIRL
12-24-2006, 05:45 PM
emo guys are hott!
Anyway, the Deut verse is the old law that was kicked out when Jesus came.
Anyway It's okay to wear jeans and wear all guys clothes if you're feeling relaxed. So keep in mind that the book's dumb and it's still Christian to cut your hair.

Tromos
12-24-2006, 06:08 PM
A more recent quote from that Book says:


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." - Mark 12:29-31

Does how you dress reflect your desire to please God? If you wear certain clothes, any clothes, as a way to defy God then it is sin. Not because of the clothes, but because of the state of your heart. Is it sin for a woman to believe that wearing jeans is a crime against God? No. She has the right to feel that way. If that woman wears jeans believing it to be a sin, is it a sin? I'd say yes, because she thinks it offends God and does it anyway - thus her heart has not put God first.

It's the literal, closed-minded interpretation of the Deutero-Canonical law that made Jesus so frustrated. Divorce, murder, adultery, denominational differences (i.e., Samaritans).

It's all about intent, people.

It's all about your heart and your priorities. A woman wearing a dress into a poor church with the intention of wanting to look better than them and feel holier than them has certainly committed a sin versus the poor beggar woman who showed up humbly in pants because those are the only clothes she has.

Look in your heart and weigh it against the words of Jesus. You can hide behind the words to me, but the Lord will always see the truth of your heart.

NightCrawler
12-24-2006, 06:19 PM
emo guys are hott!
Anyway, the Deut verse is the old law that was kicked out when Jesus came.
In my opinion I think that book was written by a psycho religious person and needs to be burned. Anyway It's okay to wear jeans and wear all guys clothes if you're feeling relaxed. So keep in mind that the book's dumb and it's still Christian to cut your hair.

Bullcrap. Where did you find in the Bible that the law is nullified?

I can show you verses that say that the world will be destroyed before the Law is nullified.

Please, show me a good reason that Deut' is gone.

BarlowgIRL
12-24-2006, 06:23 PM
I'll get back to you on that.*goes and does research*

planet_kosmos
12-25-2006, 12:56 AM
Bullcrap. Where did you find in the Bible that the law is nullified?

I can show you verses that say that the world will be destroyed before the Law is nullified.

Please, show me a good reason that Deut' is gone.

I agree with Jon.

NightCrawler
12-25-2006, 10:05 AM
I agree with Jon.
Why?

kittygirl
12-27-2006, 10:38 AM
Umm.

So.

My mom got this book called the Abominable Sin of Cross Dressing. The book talks about how it's basically a sin if women wear pants, cut their hair, or wear makeup. It says no parts of the leg should be exposed...men shouldn't wear necklaces or have their ears pierced or whatever...all because it means you're basically doomed for hell if you do.

Ever since she got this she's forcing the beliefs of the book on me...and now she wants me to write a report on the book, giving examples of the pros and cons.

Well, mind you my beliefs are so different with religion things than hers, so this is going to be one heck of a report.

I'm asking for some of your opinions on the way women should dress. Don't get me wrong, I'm for modesty, but not to the point that it's a total sin if you go in public with a pair of jeans on. I think men can wear jewelry. Women can cut their hair and wear makeup.

And the whole cross dressing part in the book refers to ANY article of clothing that represents a man. Pants and manly looking shirts.

This book also bothers me because it says if your job requires you to wear pants at work, you need to find a new job. No thank you, but I am NOT quitting my job because they make me wear pants.

Opinions, please. And thank you.

(If I find the recording of this service online I'm sending it to you)
Well, my parents have never been this way. But I do know familes where they refuse to even let their girls get their earlobes peirced, the girls can ONLY wear long skirts, or culates (*cool-ots*), can only have their hair cut 1 inch past their shoulder at the shortest, etc.

And you know what?
EVERY SINGLE one of those kids is in total rebellion because of it. It's again, the attitude.

I had a woman speak at my church ( I got the cd, btw)and she said she refrained from wearing earrings, pants, makeup etc. And one day, she realized she was treating other people in a rude way, a holier than thou way, and even though her original motive was holiness, it ended in pride.

By saying that she didn't care, and that all efforts at making yourself look better are vanity, she was doing the same thing.

Shattered_Life
12-27-2006, 02:17 PM
So I wrote the report. And my parent's completely disagreed with everything I had to say. I used a lot of the ideas and comments posted in this thread to back up my opinions as well. I hope you guys don't mind.

Thanks for all the help. Mucho appreciation.

kittygirl
12-27-2006, 05:07 PM
could I read the report, please?

skynes
12-28-2006, 07:25 AM
^ Dittoed that request, I'd like to see it too.

skilletfreak101
12-28-2006, 08:12 AM
^^me 2 :-)

Shattered_Life
12-28-2006, 10:59 AM
I'll PM you guys with the report in the next couple days...be warned it could be offensive. Looking back I realize I could have made some changes and been less brutal.

skynes
12-28-2006, 02:02 PM
I'll PM you guys with the report in the next couple days...be warned it could be offensive. Looking back I realize I could have made some changes and been less brutal.

Yeah I was concerned that might happen... Should have said that :P

I don't care for offensive. My idea of offensive is hugely different from normal :)

dawn of light
12-29-2006, 07:14 AM
I'll PM you guys with the report in the next couple days...be warned it could be offensive. Looking back I realize I could have made some changes and been less brutal.
Hey, I'd be interested in reading it too!

Shattered_Life
12-29-2006, 02:57 PM
I'm going out of town tomorrow for New Year's, so you guys should have it Tuesday.

Happy New Year. :P

BarlowgIRL
12-29-2006, 07:24 PM
I'll get back to you on that.*goes and does research*

okay, I couldn't find a bible reference yet, I'll ask my Pastor on Sunday. But as I was thinking about I have a different reason as to why it doesn't pertain to me. That law was written for the Jews. I am Gentile, therefore I am not obligated to be under that law.

as~i~lay~dying
12-29-2006, 09:24 PM
okay, I couldn't find a bible reference yet, I'll ask my Pastor on Sunday. But as I was thinking about I have a different reason as to why it doesn't pertain to me. That law was written for the Jews. I am Gentile, therefore I am not obligated to be under that law.

Weeell ....

Check out Gal. Ch.3: 10-14 & 19-25

skynes
12-30-2006, 03:47 AM
okay, I couldn't find a bible reference yet, I'll ask my Pastor on Sunday. But as I was thinking about I have a different reason as to why it doesn't pertain to me. That law was written for the Jews. I am Gentile, therefore I am not obligated to be under that law.

Romans 11. All Christian Gentiles have been grafted into the Jewish Nation. So in a sense yes you are a Jew ;)

I see what you're getting at though, I'll need to think on this topic more myself.

NightCrawler
12-30-2006, 11:05 AM
We are getting off topic:

Gal 3 was saying we don't RELY on it. And we have the Spirit to guide us, so we don't need the law to guide us -- yet they are of the same source, so they cannot conflict, and the spirit will convict anyone of breaking the law.

kittygirl
01-01-2007, 03:10 PM
Morality is a law.

unshakeable15
01-01-2007, 03:24 PM
..of sorts. Romans 3 says that for those who do not have the Law, God will use their own conscience against them as a king of law. They have invariably done things they knew were wrong, things their conscience told them was wrong, so that is a Law unto itself, but it does by no means supercede the Law of Moses.

Quadripedman
01-05-2007, 09:17 PM
I don't care much for these Christian self-help books because they tend to be more opinion oriented than biblical.



Word.

No really, they arent based on the Word. They should be, but arent. The only Christian I need is the Bible.

BarlowgIRL
01-27-2007, 08:00 PM
Galations 3:13
"13 Christ has redeemed us from teh curse of teh law...14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus"

In my Bible there's a side note that is talking about that pasage

"Part of the Jewish law included those laws found in the Old Testament...When Paul says that non-Jews (Gentiles) are no longer bound by these laws, he is not saying that the Old Testament laws do not apply to us today. He is saying certain types of laws may not apply to us" as my pastor said, like the clothing law.

skynes
01-28-2007, 03:49 AM
Galations 3:13
"13 Christ has redeemed us from teh curse of teh law...14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus"

In my Bible there's a side note that is talking about that pasage

"Part of the Jewish law included those laws found in the Old Testament...When Paul says that non-Jews (Gentiles) are no longer bound by these laws, he is not saying that the Old Testament laws do not apply to us today. He is saying certain types of laws may not apply to us" as my pastor said, like the clothing law.

I don't think your Bible is right in saying that.

This section was about the obligation was to keep to absolutely every bit of the law, but not in a Jew/Gentile sense. If you wanted to live by the law, you had to live by the WHOLE law (v 10). If you didn't then you were cursed.

v24 says the purpose of the law

"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

And v25 says how it applies to us now: "But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Not to say that the law is irrelevant, but that we no longer need it to point us to Christ.

NightCrawler
01-29-2007, 06:20 AM
I don't think your Bible is right in saying that.

This section was about the obligation was to keep to absolutely every bit of the law, but not in a Jew/Gentile sense. If you wanted to live by the law, you had to live by the WHOLE law (v 10). If you didn't then you were cursed.

v24 says the purpose of the law

"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

And v25 says how it applies to us now: "But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Not to say that the law is irrelevant, but that we no longer need it to point us to Christ.
Meh, I would add an additional clause:
For those who are mature in a walk with God, they no longer need the law to show their sin but rather live by faith -- because the law brings condemnation, Christ brings justification.

theelectric3
02-05-2007, 02:18 PM
Anyway, the Deut verse is the old law that was kicked out when Jesus came.
In my opinion I think that book was written by a psycho religious person and needs to be burned.

Jesus did not do away with the law. He fulfilled it.

Deuteronomy is one of the books that holds the law, given by God to Moses. Moses was not a "pysco religious man needing to be burned." Moses was a friend of God.

--
it is interesting how people freak out over crossing dressing by a girl wearing pants...

when not too far from where i live, real cross dressing occurs. guys in skirts and tight tops, makeup, you name it and it's there.

so it just seems so triffle to be concerned it a girl wears pants. (and since when is a girl wearing makeup cross dressing?? i don't see it as a norm for guys to wear makeup.)

i guess it does boil down to personal conviction (or is that our excuse for everything?).

i went a church service once that believed girls should not wear makeup, or cut their hair, or wear pants... can i be honest? a little makeup wouldn't hurt. and you need to cut your hair from time to time for it to be healthy.

so there is balance needed. don't become obsessive over makeup/fashion, but don't go into the other ditch either.

yes we should glorify God with our bodies (in what we eat, the way we act, what we wear)... but God looks at our hearts as well. if a girl wears makeup, or a guy wears a pair of girl cut jeans, and they are both striving to live the lives to honor God (seeking Him) i personally do not believe God will send them to hell because she chose some makeup and he wore a pair of girl jeans (because he didn't want to wear the baggy jeans).

BarlowgIRL
02-21-2007, 04:28 PM
[QUOTE=theelectric3;327353] Moses was not a "pysco religious man needing to be burned." Moses was a friend of God.

sorry, that post wasn't clear. I was refering to the cross dressing book. Today you get over zealous people who make Christianity look bad because of their interpretation of the Bible(i.e.Godhatesgoths.com)

rapdifire
02-22-2007, 07:56 PM
Ever since she got this she's forcing the beliefs of the book on me...and now she wants me to write a report on the book, giving examples of the pros and cons.

Well, mind you my beliefs are so different with religion things than hers, so this is going to be one heck of a report.

I'm asking for some of your opinions on the way women should dress. Don't get me wrong, I'm for modesty, but not to the point that it's a total sin if you go in public with a pair of jeans on. I think men can wear jewelry. Women can cut their hair and wear makeup. ... Opinions, please. And thank you.

I won't give my opinions I will give facts:

1. Modest doesn't mean "feminine" or "masculine" or "covered up" as many people think, instead it means well arranged, or well ordered. An example of something immodest would be what some fasion models wear on stages like absurd clothing that is an eyesore or is impractical to wear sitting next to someone because it may hit their head or poke them in the side or you have to say, ball of a huge tail into a ball and sit it on your lap.

2. The bible of course teaches not to go about naked, there is a good site (but im not a christadelphian and do not advocate their anti-trinitarian doctrine) at www.modesty.tk which shows what qualifies as nakedness or partial nakedness.

3. The style of clothing depends on the culture, some cultures wear robes others will use pants. Scripture does not define styles but rather they depend on the culture. So then the article of clothing depends on what the maker intended it for, was it meant for a man or woman? Obviously there are pants meant for men, and pants meant for women. For a person to say pants flat out are meant only for men is absurd. I've never met a hetrosexual man who I saw wearing pants meant for a female, can anyone figure out why. Would the author of that cross dressing book, hah, wear female pants? I think not. The author knows that in ancient times Levis were not around, not that I know of at least, instead they wore skirts of various lengths. Everyone knows Moses was not wearing levis jeans and would probably have thought it partial nakedness to do so because it showed the clear outlines of his body, he would have covered himself with a robe or skirt over it if he was I'm sure.

4. Some clothing is unisex, and since that is the intent, either sex could wear it.

5. Scripture, somewhere in or after Romans 9, teaches not to jeopardize the faith of the other person, even if they aren't a Christian, so that they will be able to get saved or so that they will be able to grow in Christ. It teaches not to put anything in the way of the gospel. Obviously you have to be around them for them to see you doing something distressing or arguing against what they believe for you to be hindering them. So if you are living with your mom and she believes its wrong, then do what will calm her down but don't argue with her about it (not that you would I'm telling this to every Christian in general). Unless it is also distressing you because you think it does get in the way of the gospel then part with her asap so that you can preach it without this getting in the way. There is a verse that says to live in peace with all men as much as in you, and if you can't be at peace with her over this then get away asap or avoid her.

I personally think that such a teaching hinders the gospel: Imagine going about making this an issue wherever you go to teach Scripture: How many people would go for it and avoid church because you made this an issue? The only reason this would be good to divide over is if the girls were wearing the jeans so tight that it was driving men to lust often when around them, and that's a different matter then "cross dressing".

6. Scripture says to abstain from all appearance of evil, so, if you are wearing something which although is intended for a woman, but which the people around you see as looking like something meant for a man, then find something else to wear if you can which is modest and looks more appropriate.

And everyone remember, our first priority is the gospel because that is what saves, not telling people what style of clothing to wear or to put on a tie because you have a tie fetish.

Tromos
02-23-2007, 04:44 AM
I won't give my opinions I will give facts:

For the record, almost every single statement in your post was opinion. While I agreed with most of it, that doesn't change its subjective nature.

bob
03-07-2007, 07:45 PM
Jesus didn't wear pants.

And that's all I'm going to say.

Tromos
03-12-2007, 07:10 AM
Jesus didn't wear pants.

And that's all I'm going to say.

Can you provide Scriptural proof? ;D

bob
03-12-2007, 10:42 AM
Can you provide Scriptural proof? ;D

:P

He wore robes, I doubt that he wore pants.

This girl once invited me to her church but said to me that I couldn't wear jeans because they don't accept that at her Church so I responded to her with that line which is probably the best one liner I've ever thought of on the spot.

dawn of light
03-12-2007, 06:10 PM
We don't scripture to tell us that because all the men wore robes in that day.