In some reacent posts, it has been said that catholics are not Christian. I think they are.

First off I'll say that I go to an Anglican Church. Many Catholics go there too. I also know of protestants who attend catholic churches regularly.

Catholics were originally The Church.
They believe in the basics of Christianity.
It is true that over history The Church has gotten caught up in all sorts of bad stuff, after all The Bride is not yet perfect. But I tell you all of us are probably caught up in something that will seem to others, from completely different backgrounds as us, wrong.
Often wake-up calls are needed to get back on track, and over the course of history one can see that the Catholics are constantly correcting themselves, and so are we.
It's sad that such a split has happened in the church. I don't believe that as it happened it was entirelly God's will because the split was donne in a spirit of hatred and bloodshed, which are not of God. But this split also served as a wake up call, and led to diversity, which is good when unified under Christ. So it wan't all bad though the bloodshed makes it hard to see that way.

I don't believe that as it happened it was entirelly God's will because the split was donne in a spirit of hatred and bloodshed, which are not of God.

Luther did not want to cause division in the church, he wanted to correct the errors that the church had been practicing as doctrine. It was the catholic church that became violent towards luther first, not the protestants against the catholics.

I honestly don't know a whole lot about catholic doctrines, or what the curently accepted doctrines are. I tend to see catholic churches as being more religeon than christianity.

this is just a question.
Why do Catholics pray to Mary?

first an overview: catholics an be christians, but not all are. the same goes for protestants, but i think a greater percentage of protestants than catholics actually believe in their religion.

the catholic church has many doctrines that are wrong. i admit that's my opinion, not fact, but this opinion is based biblically. some dotrines that make me want to stay pretty far from the catholic church:

1. tradition and papal decrees are considered on the same level of infallibilty as the bible. in most protestant churches, traditions and decrees from leaders are used, but they are not infallible.

2. Praying to mary and saints. why would you need a mediator between you and jesus? didn't he come to be the mediator between us and god?

3. good works/confession/indulgences. yes, i recognize that indulgences are not practiced as they used to be, but they're still there. mainly it's the confession i have a problem with. yes, the bible says to confess our sins to each other so that we can be held accountable, but it doesn't say that you need to have a priest forgive sins. jesus forgives sins, not a priest.

lastly (for this post) is not a belief of theirs. they don't really care that much about morals (i know this is not always true...) they do what they want. the good ones at least confess it. the other ones just go to mass 'cause they always have. they don't even care about confession.

i could write more, but i'll leave some for later.

Membership to a certian kind of church isn't what makes you a Christian (follower of Christ).

What makes you a Christian is a change on the inside (regognizing you are a sinner, repenting of your sin, accepting forgivness through Jesus' blood, serving Him with your life, etc....) I know people who like the catholic lifestyle (I can't think of the right word right now, lol!) but they truely love Jesus and they don't try to get to God through the "back door" by praying to Mary and all that kind of stuff. And then there are people who go to "Christian" churches, but there is no change inside of thier heart, so those people aren't really Christians at all.

So, yeah.............what makes you a Christian is your relationship with Jesus, not the church you attend.

Catholics don't pray to Mary or worship her... they see talking with her as asking a friend for prayer: don't you ask your friends for prayer when you get sick or are having a hard time with something? Why not Mary, then?

Personally, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea. But they aren't worshipping the virgin mother, as some seem to think.

It depends on the catholic. The ones I know don't pray to mary, but whenever I attend mass, I get pretty uncomfortable saying the hail Mary.

I was in a post all about Catholics and their doctrines. This is what they said on some things

a) Praying to Mary and the dead and the Saints - Like what was posted, this is asking them to pray for you. It's not actually praying to them to do anything or worshipping them, their worship goes only to God.

b)Confession of sin - The Priests don't forgive the sin, the confession thing is like being held accountible sorta in an accountability group. Know wot I mean? Confessing sins to one another.

c)Saints - this is where it gets weird... Only the Pope can declare who is a Saint. That person becomes a Saint by ppl having prayed to them, miracles then occuring as a result of it. They have to have performed miracles in life AND death AND be proven before they can be called Saint... <-- I think thats weird

Of course we can question who gives the Pope the right to say that but Catholics believe the Pope is the infallible representative of God...
----

thats what I got from another board I'm in. I don't agree with it and probably never will but mweh...

I'm certain that there are catholics who ARE saved, I'm also certain there are some who aren't. Same for every denomination.

I'm sure there are Catholics who are saved too, I know some of them personally. But the fact is, such as the added books in their Bible, someone is going to Hell, and taking a whole lot of people with them as says in Rev. Anyone who adds or takes away from the book will have the plagues of the world put on him.... not exactly something I would like. :

CJ

Talking to dead ppl aren't just scary (cause if you talk to the saints or mary, guess that you are talking to .... *Dramatic music in background* ...the other side LOL)

First talking to dead is transgressing the Law of God. -

Deut 18
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

1 Chron 10
13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.

Isa 8:19
When they say to you, " Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? {Should they} {consult} the dead on behalf of the living?

Then declaring saints in itself is unScriptural.

Php 4:21
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren who [are] with me salute you.

Ppl who believe in Jesus Christ are saints. We all are saints, when we believe in Jesus Christ.

Then declaring saints in itself is unScriptural.


yip, I know, but they believe that God himself has chosen the pope and given him the authority to do so.

Eph 6:9
And in the same way, you masters must treat your slaves right. Don't threaten them; remember, you both have the same Master in heaven, and he has no favorites.

1Pe 1:17
And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites when he judges. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as foreigners here on earth.

Galatians 2
6 And the leaders of the church who were there had nothing to add to what I was preaching. (By the way, their reputation as great leaders made no difference to me, for God has no favorites.)

I'm sure there are Catholics who are saved too, I know some of them personally. But the fact is, such as the added books in their Bible, someone is going to Hell, and taking a whole lot of people with them as says in Rev. Anyone who adds or takes away from the book will have the plagues of the world put on him.... not exactly something I would like. :

CJ



Luther took those books OUT of the Catholic Bible when he did his German translation, not the other way around. And he did so because they, in large part, validated a lot of Catholic doctrine.

So Luther should have the plagues of the world upon him? ???

I think that just because a church was doing Ok over 1000yrs ago that doesn't mean they're fine today.

Luther took those books OUT of the Catholic Bible when he did his German translation, not the other way around. And he did so because they, in large part, validated a lot of Catholic doctrine.

So Luther should have the plagues of the world upon him? ???


really? if i remember correctly (& i'll do some research to back it up if you want it), i saw a history channel special on the canonization of the Bible & they talked about how there were two versions being canonized. one was done sooner because Constantine wanted it done so they didn't have all the books the other one did.

besides, when John wrote that "verse," there was no Bible as we know it today. it came along a couple hundred years later. so if you look at it the way you are, the Bible we have today is wrong because it is 65 books unlawfully added onto Revelation. :-

1. on the bible: i think that is another topic altogether, kind of like what was discussed in the "book of enoch" board. a human at some point still has to decide what is in the bible. so...i vote we leave that one alone on this board.

2. saints/mary. good point, xon. i never thought of it that way. what makes us think that anyone (*dramatic music*) on the other side can hear us when we talk to them anyway? regardless of whether catholics are praying or talking to saints, i don't think the saints can hear them anyway. (that's just opinion, btw...no scriptural backup) but on the subject of whether they're praying or talking, if you're supposed to pray some hail mary's in order to obtain forgiveness for something, and you talk to mary, are you in essence asking mary to forgive your sins? do you ask your friends to pray for your forgiveness? no, because only your repentant heart can receive that forgiveness. same thing with confessing to a priest. it may it some cases be intended as accountability, but for a lot of catholics it's just that the priest is the one who's in good with God, so he'll ask for your forgiveness so you don't have to. you just ask the priest's forgivenss. where's the repentance TO GOD in that?

Luther took those books OUT of the Catholic Bible when he did his German translation, not the other way around. And he did so because they, in large part, validated a lot of Catholic doctrine.

So Luther should have the plagues of the world upon him? ???


So then, shouldn't you be reading a Catholic Bible if that is what you believe? The fact is that as I understand it, the only true take off the Bible is the KJV which was decoded from the origional Aramaic(sp?) writings by a man who was put to death because of his need to translate it properly.

CJ

Actually, Luther almost took out the book of James out of the bible because he so didn't agree with it. I'm glad he didn't go that far.

I actually like, and sometimes need to confess to a preist. It's not the preist who forgives, though people sometimes get confused, and get carried along. But originally, confessing to a preist is just accountability. When you confess in front of God and man you are less likely to repeat that sin. And the preist is also supposed to reasure you that God has officially forgiven you. It's a very good idea. To my sorrow, some people feel they need to punish themselves in order to make sure they don't repeat the sin and that gets confused with punishing yourself in order to be forgiven... That's what I mean when I say the church goes sometimes too far.

But sometimes, I feel I would be better off if I had to be accountable to a preist. It would force me to face my sin and repent of it, come to turms with it, rather than ignoring it, which is what I often do.

And the saints - why we are all saints as we have all been made holy by God. But these benidicted saints - that is one of the reasons I don't become catholic. The saints were a replacement for the gods and godesses of the pagan culture Christianity replaced, just like Christmas replaces a pagan festival, only Christmas is not so controvertial

I don't see the original church as The Catholic Church. The original church were the first body of believers, the apostles, and the church's that they started. I don't know when the catholic doctins began. I don't really care when they began. But nowhere in the bible does it say to pray to Mary or the saints. Jesus taught us to pray "Our Father which are in heaven, hallowed be thy name". Jesus didn't teach "when my mom dies pray to her too". Also hallowed be thy name is a phrase of worship making prayer an act of worship. So praying to Mary is an act of worship.
When my best friend got married in a Catholic church it struck me that there was 2 sides of the church. One with a statue of Jesus, one with a statue of Mary. During the reahursal people would come in, kneel before Mary and pray. Nobody prayed at the foot of Jesus on the cross.

That's exactly why I don't become catholic and that is exactly one of the issues we need to pray about for the catholic church.

As for catholics being the original church - "catholic" used to be the word used to describe the original body of believers. Catholic doctrine as all doctrines, started with reflexions on what christianity means. It has changed over the years, just as a lot of protestent doctrine has changed. One moment, one theologian is concidered correct, then labeled a heritic, then considered correct again. This happens in all denominations that have some history to there name.

My question is: why wouldn't we think that people on the other side can hear us when we talk to them? We are all a part of a community of believers united in one God. When we die, we are not inexplicably severed from that communion, we are strengthened and made righteous. And how powerful must the prayers of those righteous people be?! I hope we all someday know. To say that talking to dead people is scary and cultish is to buy into the world's view of death, and that is scary.
~By the way, I am Catholic. If anyone has any questions they would like to ask, I'd be more than happy to try my best to answer it.~

Have a blessed day everyone! :-*

My question is: why wouldn't we think that people on the other side can hear us when we talk to them? We are all a part of a community of believers united in one God. When we die, we are not inexplicably severed from that communion, we are strengthened and made righteous. And how powerful must the prayers of those righteous people be?! I hope we all someday know. To say that talking to dead people is scary and cultish is to buy into the world's view of death, and that is scary.
~By the way, I am Catholic. If anyone has any questions they would like to ask, I'd be more than happy to try my best to answer it.~

Have a blessed day everyone! :-*

My question is even if they could hear us, why pray to them? They cannot persway God into anything. Scripture says that Jesus is the high priest who intercedes for us.

Hebrews 7:23-28 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

This scripture shows that Jesus' prayer's are more effective than anyone elses. This is why we pray in Jesus' name to our Father. When we pray to the Father and ask it in Jesus' name, basically if our prayers are pure, Jesus asks the Father for us. This is true intercession.

Yes, Jesus' prayers are the most powerful, we can all agree to that. But I fail to see how that nulls our prayers for each other in the community of believers. We can probably all testify to the power of prayer. Call me foolish, but it is my belief that those in heaven pray for us all and never stop praying for us. To think that Jesus is doing the same is simply awe-inspiring.

p.s. sorry for the lip kissy face, i didn't know it was gonna do that! ;D

I'm not sure where the belief that people in heaven are praying for us comes from, but there is no biblical foundation for it. I don't say this out of anger or spite, just simple facts.

Also, if the ultimate intercessor is Jesus, why would we go to anyone else? If we are praying to others to have them intercede for us (who are dead), then we are limiting the power of Christ. We are saying that Christ is not sufficient enough to intercede on our behalf and we need more than Him alone.

This is in my opinion not having faith in Christ to answer our prayers. The Word says that no man can enter into heaven except through Christ and Him alone. So why bother even praying to anyone else. The saints can do nothing for us, only what we have read in scriptures that they have written.

That is the simple evaluation of it in my eyes. Biblically, I believe this is foundational.

Catholics don't pray to Mary or worship her... they see talking with her as asking a friend for prayer: don't you ask your friends for prayer when you get sick or are having a hard time with something? Why not Mary, then?

Personally, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea. But they aren't worshipping the virgin mother, as some seem to think.


but mary is dead - so how can she help you? she can't.

we can go to Jesus, talk to Him like a friend. and we know that He is praying for us. an example of Him praying for us is John 17.

the Bible we have today is wrong because it is 65 books unlawfully added onto Revelation. :-


The words in the end of revelation is only for revelation and not the whole Bible. It is only applicable to the Book of Revelation. Cause Rev.. was read by the early Christians apart from the rest of the books in the bible, it was added together later. So it definately doesn't point to the whole bible.

****

Deut 18
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

1 Chron 10
13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.

Isa 8:19
When they say to you, " Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? {Should they} {consult} the dead on behalf of the living?

Speaking to dead ppl is sin.

Again, God clearly says we may not speak to dead ppl. Jesus is alive that is why we may speak to him. I don't think God will override his own Law. Jesus is called Emmanuel, God with us, so there is no need for saints. All the idea of saints provide, is like La G said, they are in the image of pagan Gods of the romans. God never once prophesied that we will speak to saints, rather isaiah prophecies about Jesus as do the other prophets of old.

And these saints also had sinful bodies, and did sin, so they are not better than us in any way, except in their faith in God. There is one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

1Ti 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

if you pray to the saints, who prAy to Jesus then there is at least 2 mediators between you and God and that is clearly unbiblical.

The words in the end of revelation is only for revelation and not the whole Bible. It is only applicable to the Book of Revelation. Cause Rev. was read by the early Christians apart from the rest of the books in the Bible, it was added together later. So it definately doesn't point to the whole Bible.


my point exactly. but much more eloquently expressed. :)

the catholic church was not the original church. The original church is found in the book of Acts.

Jerid-
I am not trying to rile you up, I just want to get to the bottom of this: The way you interpret Scripture, you would take it to mean that none of us should pray for each other? That is the way I am understanding you, correct me if I am wrong.

Jerid-
I am not trying to rile you up, I just want to get to the bottom of this: The way you interpret Scripture, you would take it to mean that none of us should pray for each other? That is the way I am understanding you, correct me if I am wrong.


Glenna, Sorry to cause misunderstanding. The point I was making was directed towards prayer to those who have died. Yes indeed, we need to pray for each other. This is part of prayer. We pray for ourselves and for others to the Father through Christ.

My case is against praying to those who are dead and asking them to intercede for us. Also the fact that they are praying for us already is not scriptural since Jesus is the mediator as it has already been stated.

So praying to anyone else essentially does nothing except it causes confusion and shows there is a misunderstanding on how to pray.

When ppl die in Jesus Christ, they rest from their work and this includes prayer.

Job 3:13 - Show Context
For if I had died at birth, I would be at peace now, asleep and at rest.

Isa 57:2 - Show Context
For the godly who die will rest in peace.

Re 14:13 - Show Context
Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

The words in the end of revelation is only for revelation and not the whole Bible. It is only applicable to the Book of Revelation. Cause Rev. was read by the early Christians apart from the rest of the books in the Bible, it was added together later. So it definately doesn't point to the whole Bible.


that I'm not so sure about. Starting down that path begins to bring up all the "Bible is written by man" followed by "Bible has mistakes in it" etc etc.

Personally I don't think God would be too pleased about people twisting and changing his Word. Whether it's Revelation or otherwise. Since Revelation is a prophetic book I think it can be assumed that it doesn't just talk of Revelation but is a prophesy concerning the entire Bible. Think about it. How many ppl twist and change God's Word today? Seeing as these are supposedly the last days it fits quite well.

skynes, i agree w/ you 100%

hey everyone... i'm kinda new here... but, i figured it would be allright if i added my 2 cents anyways....
what i've studied about Catholicism...is that the pope has complete rule and say over how the bible is to be understood.... they believe in apostolic succession - the lind of Peter- ... who "holds the keys to heaven"... they call him infallible... which is defined as perfect or sinless...
ok... so... if im not mistaken.. isnt that in direct contradiction to the verse that says... no man is perfect no not one?
*runs and gets her history book*
ok, so in between, a.d. 54 and 68 , Nero was persecuting the church... the church then WAS called the catholic church... back then... catholic meant universal or in other words invisible. so, when they used the term catholic church it was just talking about the church body.... during neros persecution Paul was martyred and so was Peter. So, here we have the original church being persecuted back in the 2nd century. a few emperors after Nero.. we start to see some emperors saved and they begin to change the rules of the empires... now... christianity is legal... skip forward 300 years.... you now have a catholic church which isnt invisible anymore... the word has changed to meaning visible....they did this to try and unify christian s everywhere, making one church the head of the others... and it WAS the head of the christian churches.... so, everyone looked to Rome (where it was located) for their leadership. it went ok for a while... but.. as most know... ppl are NOT perfect and the leaders started to become corrupt... and want power and money instead of the will of God... at this point theres a huge split in the church.... BUT... the Roman Church has the entire backing of the ROman empire... which... back then, was enormous and very strong... so... if the emperor believes in this roman church... then hes kinda handing over the reigns for his country, over to the pope in power.... and thats what happened multiple times... they had a puppet king.. but the real ruler was the pope.
now... you have some men in high postitions... they got all the power... they read the bible... what do they find? stuff that goes against what they're teaching... uhoh... now what? well... in 1229 the council of toulouse forbade anyone except a clergyman (someone like a bishop) to own and read a bible.... cuz they knew that even a daft person who read the bible could tell that they were contradicting it. so, the only thing theu had open to the public was the breviary.... oh yeah, i forgot to mention... before the council meeting... all they had was a latin bible, so before this they didnt have to worry about anyone reading it... nobody spoke old latin except clergymen... but.... there was a man by the name of John Wycliffe who not only knew latin but translated the bible into english... this made the roman church furious.... therefore the council meeting...
there were some nasty popes back in the medeival ages... like... pope innocent III - he knew exactly how much power he had.. King John of England was so scared of having his salvation taken away that he gave his kingdom away to the pope. He fought the fourth crusade against the christian Waldensians who stood for the Bible.. and Innocent (ironic name, eh?) as far as im concerned, was a lunatic. not a leader.

and if you can imagine... hes not even the worst of them. and now, ppl blame the true christians for the inquisition and the crusades... the ppl in the middle ages had no choice but to do what the pope said.. otherwise they were gonna burn in hell....

ever since the beginning everybodys known the value and strength of religion... thats why the forefathers of america said.... theres not gonna be any official religion in the usa... we're not going back to that.

i really dont understand how any sane person can be a member of the catholic church... you look at history, and you see all these messed up popes... but even today, we say they're perfect... and you might say... well... i dont believe in every doctrine that the pope makes.... well, then , what the heck are you in that church for? i know that there ARE some true believeers in the catholic church. but.. if they really delved into the heart of catholicism, they'd be crazy to stay... theres just too much dark stuff involved....
its holding so many ppl in fear of losing their salvation... cuz they dont got enough money to buy those sacraments... i would love to understand why any true believer would want to stay within catholicisms holds... if ya''ll have any answers.. do tell

sorry, if i offended anyone... just trying to shed some light......

i agree. that pretty much sums up the emotional side of me that despises the catholic church (i admit it...) but there's also the rational side of people that there's often too much of in the world (we call it political correctness). that part of me has to defend catholics. not the church itself, although it does have some good points, but i'm defending the catholic people. the church still discourages personal devotions, and thus most catholics are innocent in that they believe what they're told. so it's not really a catholic's fault if he's going down the wrong path: the church he lives in told him it was the only path. i'm trying hard here not to criticize anyone, the church or the people, but to defend the people as being generally innocent.

No one person is innocent except a child without understanding.

Christ alone makes us free. You are a slave to the one you choose as your master. Be it Jesus Christ or any other god.

well said, xon...

the church still discourages personal devotions Are you sure about that?
isnt that in direct contradiction to the verse that says... Ofcourse. That's why we need to pray for the catholic church.
Well actually it's seen more like this: God sets spiritual authorities. You've got the pastor directly there to pastor you. Or rather in the catholic church, a priest. Over him, accountable to him, pastoring him, is the bishop. (my pastor at my anglican church is also a bishop) Over the bishop, making sure he is not corrupt and making sure that he is being accountable, and pastoring him, is the arch bishop.
And so the hirarchy continues - to the pope.
The pope is at the top of the pyramid. It's very difficult, with conflicting doctrines, heritics, rebelious clergy, etc, to be a pope. So they do what they do to kings - give absolute power. But in christianity, we know that only God gives power. So then, if a pope is going to have athority, we better say it's from God. Therefore every thing he says is supposedly from God. They also suppose that it is God who makes the next pope decided, and to God he is accountable.

Frankly, I understand why the catholics hold on to the pope, why they find it attractive. There is a verse that paul says saying not to call anyone "papa" because God is the only real sovereign. If love truely beats in your hearts, (as I wish it did in mine) now is the time to get on one's knees and pray for the catholic church. Soon the current pope is going to live perminently in heaven with Jesus. A new pope will be appointed. Pray that this time God really will choose the pope, pray that this pope will be a true man of God, pray that he will be humble, and give back to God his sovereignty, and point the catholics who've maybe a little too far with their imaging of the pope, back to God. I don't care if the pope stays or not. All I care is that the place he holds that is contradictory, not be contradictory any more.

Oh yea, I forgot to add, thanks to the wake up call from the reform, you no longer pay for your dead ones to suffer less in purgatory. Instead, my cousin, who's a catholic, prays for who ever dies, praying he'd go through the least amont of purgatory, and be right from the start close to God in heavan. As for the existance of purgatory, it's such a big subject I'll leave it alone.

Oh yea, I forgot to add, thanks to the wake up call from the reform, you no longer pay for your dead ones to suffer less in purgatory. Instead, my cousin, who's a catholic, prays for who ever dies, praying he'd go through the least amont of purgatory, and be right from the start close to God in heavan. As for the existance of purgatory, it's such a big subject I'll leave it alone.


This goes back to an issue I already spoke about which is praying to or even for the dead. Once someone is dead, there is not another chance. So praying to them or for them is a waste of time and again a misunderstanding of how to pray. When the disciples asked Jesus how to pray, He told them a guideline for prayer. This guideline had nothing to do with the "afterlife" only to do with this life.

As for purgatory, it's not a big subject and since the catholics believe in this, then it is on topic. In my best understanding of scripture on this topic, I believe purgatory was the "holding place" prior to Christ. Christ came and "set the captives free". The saints prior to Christ could not enter into Heaven because there was no way they could get in because they did not have Christ. Since Christ came and died for them too, they were released from their "holding place" to be with Him.

I know there are portions of scripture that seem to go against this, for example when we die we "sleep" but Paul also said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We know that God took Enoch up to be with Him. It's hard to say why God does what He does, our minds can't comprehend it. One thing I do know, when we take scripture and do not expand on it, we can get stuck with tons of misconceptions. This is what I believe the catholic church is stuck in.

personal devotions:
a teacher in my school used to be catholic. then he started reading the bible for himself. it's not that they don't want people to read it, it's that they denounce the idea that scripture can be interpreted in any way other than the church's way. so it's not really devotions, but the dissent that it could lead to that they discourage.

on purgatory and praying for the dead:
hebrews 9:27 - "...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
there are other verses as well, but the point is that after we die, we go to be judged. there's no time spent to pay for sins or any kind of crap like that.

Yip, I agree bluflame. I think where it came in, is because of the belief that you are saved when you are part of the catholic church, although not believed anymore so much by a lot of catholics.

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The following isn't much on topic, but touches it. Skip if you want
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This means that anyone can be part of the (real) Church of Jesus Christ, so to be pure, these ppl had to pay for their sins in some way. But we know God's grace is more abundant than we can think. So through the blood of Jesus Christ and our faith in him alone, we are sinless. The sheet that listed our sin was once and for all killed with Jesus Christ on the cross (Romans 6-8) .

When we say that we must enter purgatory to "pay" or be "cleansed" from our sin, we are saying that God is a liar. But the Scripture says that "let God be true and every man a liar" So we know God is not lying. But that we are dealing with an untruth.

So when God says through scripture
1Jo 1:9 - Show Context
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

He is saying that we must confess that God is true and we are liars. So when God says he cleanses us, we must believe, unless we are saying that God is a liar. And again must CONFESS that he is in the truth.

We do not ask FORGIVENESS for sins. It has already been given by the death of Jesus Christ. We CONFESS to God that he is in truth and we are in the lie.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I'm a bit off topic, but I started to post and away I did.

The reason I didn't want to talk about purgatory, is because of how little I know about it. I still don't know what catholics currently believe about it, but I looked into the church history books.

Purgatory is originally based on the verses " (11) For other foundation can no man lay than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build apon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by the fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) if any man's work abide which he hath built thereapon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" 1 cor 11-15.

A false doctrine, that I didn't take the time to look up where it came from, said that Christ forgives all the sins up untill we are baptised. From then on all sins have to be payed for either by penance, or by purgatory. This enhanced the idea of pergatory atoning for sins. Another verse, quoted out of contexte, to defend purgatory is Mat. 5:26.

St. Augastine said that Purgatory is probable, but not certain.

If one looks at the testamonies of people who had near death experiences - there is a jugement, even for christians. A christian guy says: "Behind every scene (of the life just prevewed) there seemed to lie the man of light's (Jesus's) burning question: "What have you done with your life to show Me?" And as I watched myself, I always seemed to have all too little to offer in response. Even the seemingly reasonable excuse, 'but I'm only twenty. I haven't properly started yet' brought the never less loving response 'No one is too young to die'..."

A non-christian (who became a christian during his experience) described the judgement as " I felt that the whole life's review would have been emotianally destructive, and would have left me a psychotic person, if it hadn't been for the fact that my Friend, (Jesus), and my Friend's Friends (Angels?), while we watched the whole thing were loving me... The therapy was their love, because my life's review just kept tearing me down. It was pitiful to watch, just pitiful. I couldn't believe it. And the thing is, it got worse as it went on..."

So does purgatory exist? Depends how you define it.

When we say that we must enter purgatory to "pay" or be "cleansed" from our sin, we are saying that God is a liar. But the Scripture says that "let God be true and every man a liar" So we know God is not lying. But that we are dealing with an untruth.

So when God says through scripture
1Jo 1:9 - Show Context
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

He is saying that we must confess that God is true and we are liars. So when God says he cleanses us, we must believe, unless we are saying that God is a liar. And again must CONFESS that he is in the truth.

We do not ask FORGIVENESS for sins. It has already been given by the death of Jesus Christ. We CONFESS to God that he is in truth and we are in the lie.

I totally agree with you there Xon, its not mans works, (the entire exsitance of purgratory whould mean salvation PLUS works was required(cleansing in purguatory) God doesn't say that)

How does 1 cor 11-15 fit into the picture?

I Cor says that everyone will be judged after death. it doesn't say for how long. all it says is that no one will escape the judgment, and their deeds will be judged. purgatory is not merely a judgment. catholics believe that everyone, christian or not, goes to purgatory after death. a christian spends an amount of time there being cleansed by the pool of Grace (catholic doctrine of the idea of grace...) left by Jesus and some of the saints. The idea is that because everyone sins, we have to pay for it in purgatory before we can go to heaven to be with Jesus. They believe that after a person's time in purgatory is spent paying for things, they are judged and go either to heaven or hell.

Problems with this doctrine: if the blood of Christ pays for sins, why would it need to pay for sins after death instead of through repentance during life? (repentance = admitting you messed up and choosing to change it)
And even if it made sense for Christians to pay for sins before entering God's presence, why would non-Christians need to pay for sins before spending an eternity paying for their life's mistakes?

I still don't know what the catholic church thinks of purgatory now. I agree we don't "pay" for our sins after death, unless we go eternally to hell,

but I was wondering. I'd like to know what others who have posted on purgatory here think. Does the fact that Jesus forgives our sins mean that we escape judgement completely?

I say "Yes". Jesus took our ENTIRE punishment for ALL our sins, not just two or three but the whole lot. Otherwise his death was in vain. By accepting him as Saviour he took our place and took our punishment so their is no punishment for Christians. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" Paul wrote. So when a Christian dies they go straight to Jesus, no purgatory, no waiting.

I thought that purgatory wasn't paying for sins but a sort of sanctification. I don't know much about it either other than it is somewhere Chrstians go to get rid of their sins before they can go into God's presence.

I am not trying to criticize anyone's views, but I am rather disappointed at some of the rather skewed and limited views of Catholicism.
Firstly, I will address the purgatory issue, which seems to be somewhat of a hot button. This doctrine stems from a few key Scripture verses and a fundamental knowledge of God's mercy. The book of Revelation (21:27) tells us that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Jesus reveals that only the pure of heart shall see God (Mt. 5:8). Yet, no one springs to mind who has died in a state of perfection, we die with some attachement to sin. To enter into God's prescence, we must be free from our former darkness and cleansed. When God is offended by our acts, His mercy will bring us forgiveness, but His justice demands atonement (notice how I did not use the word "punishment")
It's like this: if you broke your dad's window with a baseball, you might feel sorry and apologize. Your dad might reply "I know you didn't do it on purpose, so you are forgiven. But at the same time, you were careless, and I expect you to pay for a new window out of your own savings."
It's only logical to give reparation for sin, also.
I am not presuming to know anything about the existing purgatory, or heaven or hell for that matter, for that is not yet for me to understand. But I do realize that there are many general misunderstandings and hostilities directed toward Catholics over purgatory.
Next, in response, once again to those who have posted on asking deceased to pray for us: To find Bible verses which relate to resting in heaven and then to use them to say that those in heaven don't pray, is , I think, rather selective. Heaven truly cannot be thought of in terms limited to this world, as it exists outside of space and time. Jesus is the vine and the faithful are branches, one does not cease being a member of the vine because of worldly death. Life as a part of the vine continues, even in heaven. A final thought on that business, If I could ask you, or a friend to pray for me (Rom 15:30) then why can I not ask the mother of Jesus to pray for me?
Next, and I guess this is mostly for demented damsel. Let me start by saying that, yes, in over 2000 years of the papacy, there have been eveil and bad popes who were a disgrace to themselves, and failed representatives of the Master they were pledged to serve. Let this knowledge not marr our appreciation of the far more numerous pious and dedicated popes, many who have even died as martyrs. Addressing the issue of infallibility, I refer to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary's definition of the word infallible. "1. incapable of error: UNERRING;2: not liable to mislead, deceive or disappoint: CERTAIN; 3: incapable of erroe in defining doctrines touching faith and morals." The first definition applies only to God, the second involves relative infallibility, the third is claimed by the Catholic Church for it's pope and the bishops. Heres the reasoning: Jesus promised to be with the Apostles and their successors for all time (Mt 28:18), He also promised to send the Holy Spirit on the Apostles so that the Holy Spirit could guide Peter and the Apostles and made clear all that Jesus had revealed to them (Jn 14:26, Jn 15:26, etc.) So through necessity of Jesus' promise, these promises also had to be passed on to the successors of the apostles. Infallibility, then is not merely a gift, but a necessity, since Jesus and the Holy Spirit cannot contradict themselves. God meant the Bible to be correctly understodd, but for that, He would need infallible interpreters. This is the task of the pope.
Finally, demented damsel, I am truly impressed at your grasp of history: in 313 Constantine signed the Edict of Milan, making Christianity a lawful religion; this is when the church of the catacombs(Catholic Church) emerged, despite the fact that it was there all along, although in a sort of embryonice state.

If you took the time to read this post, thank you and have a very blessed week.
Glenna

purgatory: True we cannot get into heaven or the presence of God with sin. This is the awesome power of the blood of Christ. We are no longer sinners, yet we are perfected in Christ. This of course does not mean we do not sin, it means we have a grace in which we do not understand. We are perfect in Christ. This is how we can enter into His presence, simply because of His grace. Purgatory is not scriptural. If we had to go somewhere after our death to be "cleansed" then the blood of Christ was for nothing. The Word declares that one drop of His blood has defeated all of hell. Doesn't this same blood cleanse us?

As for decease praying for us. Again, they are dead. What can they do for us. We can ask those who are alive to pray for us. They can. No where in scripture will you find someone who has died praying for someone. It just doesn't happen. It is not scriptural and anyone trying to say it happens has nothing to back that up. I am not trying to be argumentative, but simply to the point. I am constantly reminded of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man while in hell called to Abraham to send Lazarus to tell his (the rich man's) brothers of that place. Abraham would not allow Lazarus to do such a thing. Why not? Because there is no communication with the dead. We live in an earthly realm. To ask others to pray for us is one thing, but to ask the dead to pray for us is showing that we do not believe Jesus is the intercessory between the Father and us. When we have others pray they are praying to Jesus as well. When we have the dead pray for us, we are putting faith in the dead. I just cannot agree with that and I believe that it serves no purpose in a Christian walk.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being judgmental, I just don't see how it can be beneficial to a believers life.

It's like this: if you broke your dad's window with a baseball, you might feel sorry and apologize. Your dad might reply "I know you didn't do it on purpose, so you are forgiven. But at the same time, you were careless, and I expect you to pay for a new window out of your own savings."
It's only logical to give reparation for sin, also.

but didn't Jesus already do that on the cross? isn't that our reparations? Jesus already payed our costs, completely. before, we owe God our lives because there was no other way we could pay our reparations except through death. but now we owe God our lives because we realize that due to the cross, the only way we can show thanks to Jesus for all He did.


If I could ask you, or a friend to pray for me (Rom 15:30) then why can I not ask the mother of Jesus to pray for me?

well, why go to someone you can't see or hear when you can go to a friend who you can see & can hear & whose prayer means the same as Mary's? what does she offer over your friend that you would go to her?

unshakeable- I believe, as is only right, that Mary has been made righteous in heaven. Her prayers can be nothing short of perfect. I think we would both agree that it would be an impossibilityfor her prayers to be less than perfect. And when we need prayers, we should not hestitate to ask those who can help, earthly and heavenly. It disheartens me to think that many people discount talking to the faithful in heaven simply because they are dead. Jerid, you said "to ask the dead to pray for us is showing that we do not believe Jesus is the intercessory between the Father and us." If you believe that, then why don't you believe the same thing for people who are alive? Asking a person to pray you is a far cry from asking a person to be your Savior. Jerid, I don't really understand how your idea of not asking those in heaven to pray for us is Scriptural either. Also, and this is in the least accusatory way, are you a believer in sola scriptura, I can only assume?
I guess I might as well give you some idea of what I have personally experienced: Three months ago, a very good friend of mine died in a drunk driving accident. The person in the car with her saw angels take her away. To me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, this meant that she had been received into heaven. It was very hard at first, but after awhile, I began asking her to pray for me. Myself and others I know have received many signs from her including the deepening faith of her own mother. Also, I have a special connection with St. Therese of the Little Flower. Many hard days when I ask her to pray for me, I will receive a flower from someone, or a card with a flower on it or such (she is the patron saint of flowers)
Now back to the purgatory issue- unshakeable you said "Jesus already payed our costs, completely. before, we owe God our lives because there was no other way we could pay our reparations except through death. but now we owe God our lives because we realize that due to the cross, the only way we can show thanks to Jesus for all He did." I could think on the surface it seems quite logical, but if it's examined closer, it doesn't really stand up. Jesus didn't come to "pay our reparations," He came to pay for our sins. It is up to us to show God we love Him by obeying Him and trying to rectify the damage our sin against Him has caused. To say otherwise is to make a joke of God's perfect justice. I guess for me that deals more with reparing here on earth. To be honest, I am still grappling with the doctrine of purgatory, but, to be sure, that belief has nothing to do with my salvation, so I pray about it, but trust me when I say it doesn't consume me!
Mortuum Mundo, Vivum in Christo,
Glenna

When the disciples asked Jesus "how should we pray?" Jesus taught us to pray "Our Father who are in heaven". He didn't say "when my mom dies pray to her also". There's no instance in the bible of any apostle or disciple praying to anyone other than God thru Christ. So that is why it isn't scriptural. Because it's not in the bible. Which would make one think "if the pope is infallable (by your definition-not liable to mislead, deceive or disappoint: CERTAIN; 3: incapable of erroe in defining doctrines touching faith and morals.") then why would he teach others to do so?

One of Jesus' last statements on the cross was "it is finished" the word for finished in the orignal language means "paid in full". Nowhere in the bible does it say that Christs death was insufficient and we must make any reparations. It does say "who soever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life". I'm trying to find the verse that says our sins are cast into the sea or something like that, but it's late and I'll have to look tomorrow.

What we need to do is have God's word The Bible be the final word.

Purgatory - Doesn't this kinda deny Christ's sacrifice? He came to free us from the bondage of sin and death. To fix the broken relationship with God. He took our full punishment and paid for ALL our sins, Past, Present and Future. To say we still have to pay for our sins, I see, as saying that God cannot fully forgive and justify. We are given Christ's righteousness. A perfect righteousness. No more payment needed.

God meant the Bible to be correctly understood, but for that, He would need infallible interpreters.

God DID provide an infallible interpreter. The Holy Spirit. A human cannot be infallible. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, there are none righteous, no not one. Not even the Pope or Mary were/are perfect. they made mistakes just like everyone else.
Bible's quite clear on it, All have sinned, All deserve death.

are you a believer in sola scriptura Wot on earth does that mean? I believe whats in the Bible, if something goes against whats written in scripture - it is a lie. I don't care WHO it came from! Pastors, evangelists, popes. No exceptions.

For me the proof of the "fallibility" if there is such a word, of the pope, is simply history - in which doctrine after doctrine was accepted and later regected and then accepted again...

The only version of purgatory that seems biblically backed to me is what I said about 1st Corinthians.
There is a difference between a myth backed by some verses in the bible, and things proposed by the bible. The only version of purgatory I believe in is this: we are saved by Jesus Christ. Our sinful body is done away with when our body dies. But there is a judgement. Many people who experienced near death witness this: this jugement is not to determine whether they will go to heaven or not, neither attonement, but rather a look at the works we did in our life. Were they for God, or for ourselves that we did what we did? For others or for our selves? We are Christians. We will go to heaven no matter what. Christ is likened to our foundation. It is because of him that we are saved. But then, if I helped a girl in my class because it made me feel proud of being a better person than the "friend" who isn't friend enough to help the girl, well, that is likened to a wooden wall in my living room. If I help a friend, completly forgetting myself, being so engrossed in helping her, that is like a wall of gold in my kitchen. And when I get to heaven, my house gets put on fire. Even if my house is made of nothing but wood and hay, and burns down completely, I am still saved and right before God, because of Christ. I just don't have anything to offer Him on top of that. But if I have a golden wall in my kitchen, well, when the fire finishes burning down the rest, the gold wall will stay standing on Jesus the foundation, and though it be a small wall, I will receive a reward for it. Maybe the reward is just Jesus being very pleased. That's what he does with the near death experiencers. Maybe the reward will just be that my friend will become a Christian if she wasn't and I'd get to see her spending eternity with God. I don't know what the reward is. Jesus never said what it was when he talked about a reward in heaven.

That is how I interpret 1 Corinthians 3 :11-15. I quoted it above, if king James version doesn't hurt. This is the passage that originally started the idea of purgatory. It's important to know that the idea of purgatory EVOLVED. And what I described above is the only biblical form of purgatory I know of. Or, what I mean is that this is how I see it. I know where people can find a problem with it...

Is there not a difference between your works being burned and you? Using your own example. Sure your house may be burned down but wud you be in the house at the time?

I don't know exactly. I only know that it says in Corinthians that the soul will escape alive. And I think the issue is screening one's life, not so much oneself, because at this state one would be dead and the life on earth over.

Glenna,

I never even heard of sola scriptura before you mentioned it. After researching it, I would have to say no I am not. I do believe there are other avenues of God speaking to us outside of the Word of God. But I will say that those things need to be confirmed by the Word to be inexplicably true. Why? Simply because anyone can throw anything out there and we can say oh that sounds nice. If it is not in the Word and the Word does not contradict it, then I will say it is a possibility. If it is not in the Word and the Word does contradict it, then I say there is no way.

You misunderstand my words. If you read again what I said about having others pray for us, they are praying to God through Jesus, just as I am. He is the only intercessor. If we are praying to the dead and asking them to pray for us, then we are putting more faith in the dead then we are Jesus, since Jesus is no longer dead but alive. So when we are asking for those around us (who are living) to pray to God through Christ (who is alive) our prayers are effective.

1 Samuel 3:3Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had been filled with sorrow for him. They buried him in his own city of Ramah. And Saul had put out of the land those who spoke with spirits by using their secret ways. 4The Philistines gathered together and came and stayed at Shunem. Saul gathered all Israel together and they stayed at Gilboa. 5When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid. His heart shook with much fear. 6Saul asked the Lord what he should do. But the Lord did not answer him, by dreams or by Urim or by those who speak for God. 7Then Saul said to his servants, 'Find a woman for me who can speak with spirits, that I may go to her and ask her what I should do.' His servants said to him, 'See, there is a woman at Endor who can speak with spirits.'
8So Saul dressed up to look like somebody else and went with two other men to the woman during the night. He said, 'Use your secret ways for me, I beg you, and bring up for me whom I will name to you.' 9But the woman said to him, 'See, you know what Saul has done. He has put out of the land those who speak with spirits by using their secret ways. Why do you lay a trap for my life to cause my death?' 10But Saul promised her by the Lord, saying, 'As the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.' 11Then the woman said, 'Whom should I bring up for you?' And he said, 'Bring up Samuel for me.' 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. She said to Saul, 'Why have you fooled me? For you are Saul!' 13The king said to her, 'Do not be afraid. What do you see?' The woman said to Saul, 'I see a god coming up out of the earth.' 14He said to her, 'What does he look like?' And she said, 'An old man is coming up. He is dressed in a long piece of clothing.' Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he put his face to the ground to show honor.
15Then Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you troubled my rest by bringing me up?' Saul answered, 'I am very troubled. The Philistines are making war against me. And God has left me and answers me no more, by those who speak for Him or by dreams. So I have called you to tell me what I should do.' 16Samuel said, 'Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has left you and has turned against you? 17The Lord has done what He said He would do through me. The Lord has torn the rule of Israel out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18You did not obey the Lord and bring His burning anger upon Amalek. So the Lord has done this to you now.'

Here Saul talked to the Lord and He would not answer him so he had a medium bring forth the spirit of Samuel to answer his question. Samuel replied with "why have you troubled my rest by bringing me up here". This shows that the dead rest until the day of judgment. However that rest is if it is in the ground or in the bossom of Abraham or in the presence of Jesus is all for interpretation, but it is a rest. Samuel even said why have you troubled me. There are no concerns in this rest. Now Samuel has a concern to deal with and is troubled by it. This shows me that praying to those who have died is of no use. He did go on to answer Saul, but he only told him what Saul already knew.

I am very open to other thoughts and ideals. If it contradicts scripture then I reject it, if it does not contradict scripture then I say there is a possibility.

Wow. I never imagined there would be so many responsess to this topic, although I think it's wonderful that there are so many of us who are honestly and earnestly trying to discover the heart of the matter. Even so, I feel as though some posts are trying to accuse me of ideas that are not my own. I never implied that Christ's death was not sufficient, nor did I ever imply that all prayers should not be through Christ to the Father. Even those in heaven united in His love still must go through the Saviour to the Father. I almost feel as though there is nothing more I can say on the issue without getting out and out defensive. It would be so much easier to talk face to face, Bible in hand, with the Holy Spirit to guide us through. I am very sorry if it ever seemed as though I was trying to convert any of you, as that is something the Lord has put in my heart, that I am being too forceful. As with any of you, it is merely my mission to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ and pray for the conversion of souls to His heart. If I kept responding to accusations regarding the Catholic faith, I might get carried away and say things I regret about other's faith, and I would rather steer myself away from that sin! Thank you so much for being courteous and respectful,especially to you, Jerid, and I will hopefully see one or two of you at upcoming Skillet concerts! :)Pray for me as I will be praying for you all.
walk straight,
Glenna

Thankyou for modelling the christ like attitude.

Glenna,

I always appreciate a good, healthy topic study. We all grow from it and judging from your replies, I will say you are passionate about your beliefs. That is always something I enjoy seeing.

I have a friend who appears to be passionate about his beliefs as well, the only problem with appearances is that is exactly what they are, appearances. He will fight someone toothe and nail on a topic in the Word, yet when scripture contradicts, he holds fast to his beliefs and that's the end of it. So even though he is passionate about his beliefs, he can also be hard-hearted (i'm sure we all can and are at times), which is never good.

One thing I have admired about your postings is even though you are passionate towards your beliefs, you are open to the Word. I am not saying you are right or wrong in your postings, I am saying it is always great to be open. Because when we are open to His Spirit, He can change our "stinking thinking". I have held firm to certain beliefs only to have a brother or sister in the Lord point out scripture that contradicted my beliefs. Of course, I have to go with scripture. This is my prayer for you, that God reveals Himself true to you, through scripture and prayer. I am not necessarily talking about this subject, I am talking about anything that you ever have questions on.

Thanks for the constructive (dare I say) debate, it causes us all to grow.

When i went to the concert, my friend seemed suprised when i said i was Catholic. how many of you are christian or catholic? because i really dont see any distinct division between the two. what IS the difference? becaue cathlics are christian, and that's probably why i dont see it, but maybe from a christian point of view, how do you guys view catholics?

I personally view Catholicism as a branch of Christianity just like Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. There are many things that the Catholic Church teaches that I don't personally agree with (i agree w/ the Lutheran understanding of Scripture) but that doesn't mean I hate Catholics. However, I think there are many catholics who are catholic in name only and who are not truly Christians just as there are ppl like that in every denomination. And i do think that many catholics trust not in Jesus for their salvation but in their own works of righteousness, the saints, and Mary and i wander about those catholics whether or not they are truly saved. On the other hand, I have met some catholics who believe that salvation is by grace alone through faith in Jesus and who are definately on fire for Him. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what sect of christianity you belong to, as long as you know you're saved by Jesus' death and resurrection and your life shows you're a christian.

I personally view Catholicism as a branch of Christianity just like Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. There are many things that the Catholic Church teaches that I don't personally agree with (i agree w/ the Lutheran understanding of Scripture) but that doesn't mean I hate Catholics. However, I think there are many catholics who are catholic in name only and who are not truly Christians just as there are ppl like that in every denomination. And i do think that many catholics trust not in Jesus for their salvation but in their own works of righteousness, the saints, and Mary and i wander about those catholics whether or not they are truly saved. On the other hand, I have met some catholics who believe that salvation is by grace alone through faith in Jesus and who are definately on fire for Him. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what sect of christianity you belong to, as long as you know you're saved by Jesus' death and resurrection and your life shows you're a christian.
yeah, catholics have a HUGE variety of beliefts its crazy. and yeah i too agree with the lutheran understanding of the scripture. i think catholics stick too much to what they see. they don't see in between the lines.

I'm Roman Catholic and proud of it. And yes, I see in between the lines. We have a lot of proof of what we believe in but I don't want to get into it right now...

One thing though... What do you mean "saved?"

cathlics the go to a both to confuss there sin and ask forgiveines it hink thats so wrong we have prayer you know

why is it wrong to confess? youre admitting you sinned.

cathlics the go to a both to confuss there sin and ask forgiveines it hink thats so wrong we have prayer you know

Ho ho... thats just asking for it...

Yeah theres prayer involved in that you know...
Okay read the bible kid, Jesus says to do this. He clearly says to confess your sins.

look what i just found. :) an older thread on the same topic! :D & i used my magical merge button to make them one! :D how neat! ;)

(btw, we do this not only to keep things neat around here, but also so you can read back on what others have said. there is some great insight in older threads.)

lol sorry. new here. didn't know this existed. but NEXT TIME! ill look before :-D

I am not a catholic, but there are times when I wish I had somebody who's job it is to be neutral, and to be accountable to, and talk about the sin I don't understand. It might help me, to be accountable. And I rarely have friends to do me this favor. So in the past I've often been tempted to pretend I'm catholic and go to confession.

Yeah, accountability's great! I guess it all depends on the motive behind what youre doing...

I think that often, being brought up i particular church, you can grow to think that other churches aren't as good as your own, or you can even sometimes be taught the negatives of one 'denomination' while never knowing the positives of it. Personally, I don't have particular denomination; I belive the Bible and that's where I learn my principles from. But I would love to see the day when we can all join together, catholics, lutherans, baptists, evangelicals, the lot; because after all, we are under one God!

4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
-Eph 4:4-6

I enjoyed reading this threads and I received alot of insights into the Catholic faith especially from Glenna. Thanx Glenna, I can tell God has really worked in your life and you are an awesome example of Jesus Freak who happens to be catholic. I think debates like these are healthy for all of us Christians, they help us grow. And i was very amazed that nothing got ugly and mean during this session. That is a sign that the Holy Spirit was in this. ;)

Catholics were originally The Church.

i thought the Jews were originally the church.

they were/are God's chosen people.

the early Christians were converted Jews.

off-topic, i know, but just to point that out.

Before the church split, it was catholic. However, the original New Testament church and the catholic church pre-split and the catholic church now are all very different, methinks.

And it doesn't really matter what label you put on a church, it is the truth that they live in that matters; that varies between churches within and between denominations

Catholic was the name given to The church because it means "General" (Catholic church=general/universal church) That ment every christian, jew or gentail. Then as usual things went wrong and the catholic church to day is both different from what it was befor splits ever happened and from what it was when the split happened (and thank God it is no longer like the time of the reformation)