petrameansrock
12-29-2006, 09:14 PM
What do y'all think?

Also, should the execution be televised?

Thoughts?

bubblesemm
12-29-2006, 09:26 PM
i personally don't think that we should televise it,and as for whether or not we should have killed him,i am undecided.

riz
12-29-2006, 10:19 PM
Mars Hill anyone?

Of course it shouldn't be televised! Was it? I hope not; that's something that, despite the gravity and the horrendous nature of Saddam's crimes, deserves to be done within closed doors. Is this by hanging? If so, I'm sure it might be public and therefore there's probably no stopping there being televised footage of the event. I personally don't know how I feel about the execution taking place. On the one hand, I'm glad that there this man cannot cause havoc in the Middle East (especially against his own people). But, there's this part of me that thinks, why kill to rectify killing? Wouldn't life imprisonment be enough of a punishment, make the rest of his life hell? It's not my decision - or America's - to make, but the Iraqis. A lot of people think: you get what you give, he got what was coming to him. True, in a way. But I'm not really for the death penalty in general, so that's my opinion seeping through.

Anyway, carry on with the discussion...

eowyn
12-30-2006, 12:10 AM
*Ding Dong, the witch is dead*

That's what I said, anyways as soon as I heard the news. In my opinion though, watching the hanging is grotesque, unless you endured his regime's control.

timmyrotter
12-30-2006, 12:25 AM
yes!!! i want to spit on his corpse. at least we get to kill him instead of him killing himself like that pansy hitler.

fire-inside
12-30-2006, 01:42 AM
You know. It feels very strange to me.

I didn't know it was going to be done until about fifteen minutes before it happened, and I was glued to the news.

For some reason I feel very strange about it. He was like, a modern day Hitler [of sorts] and it feels so strange to me that it's all over. I'm not sure if I'm making much sense.

I suppose I'm just amazed that, for one, he was even captured. And secondly, that it happened so fast. When's the last time an execution took place 52 days after sentencing?

As far as it being televised. Last I heard, the Iraqi government was going to release the footage and photographs of the execution and the body. However. The execution itself would not be televised. But, it was promised that they would release a photograph or something that proves the execution did indeed take place and that it was indeed him.

It's hard to look at Saddam as a human being, but he was. And I think that, as a right to his humanity - despite how horrible and cruel he was - such things deserve to be kept private and not put out for the pleasure of certain individuals.

skynes
12-30-2006, 03:50 AM
He's dead? Lol. I didnt know it had happened.

I'm for his execution.

Recently I've the argument that every life is sacred, so Saddam shouldn't be killed because his life is sacred too.

I think that's backwards, I think that BECAUSE every life is sacred Saddam should be killed. There is noone on earth capable of making a judgement on sacred lives, only God can do that, so it'd be best to obey God and send him on a one way trip to God's throne to face judgemnt for all the sacred lives he's destroyed.

dawn of light
12-30-2006, 07:07 AM
It's hard to look at Saddam as a human being, but he was. And I think that, as a right to his humanity - despite how horrible and cruel he was - such things deserve to be kept private and not put out for the pleasure of certain individuals.
I agree completely.
But, there's this part of me that thinks, why kill to rectify killing? Wouldn't life imprisonment be enough of a punishment, make the rest of his life hell?
Maybe I'm too much of an optimist but I think that in prison at least he has the chance to really think about what he did and possibly find Christ. "What's the likelihood of that?" someone will probably ask. It doens't matter how unlikely it is. Just the fact that there is a chance, for one more spirit to populate heaven is worth the tax dollars, in my opinion.

alienyouth9292
12-30-2006, 07:09 AM
i'm glad he died, i know it sounds mean, but i want his body to rot and destroy like all the poor innocent Iraqis he killed.

america is becoming so weak. whatever happened to the punishments that were so evident in the Old Testament. if you kill someone(or in saddam's case, people) you should die.

john316
12-30-2006, 07:46 AM
Like some of you I also have mixed emotions about this but first of all i do believe that he should be executed for the simple fact that it is in accordance with the Iraqi laws... he was clearly a brutal man who deserved to be punished to the fullest extent of their law. However that doesn't change the fact that he still is a human being and has a soul and in that regard i feel some regret that a life has come to an end....especially in the light of where he may spend eternity.

As far was televising it i don't think it should be....but they should(and apparently are) showing enough to let the Iraqi people know what transpired.

skynes
12-30-2006, 08:37 AM
america is becoming so weak. whatever happened to the punishments that were so evident in the Old Testament. if you kill someone(or in saddam's case, people) you should die.

I think the OT punishments should still be in effect. A life for a life. That was a commandment from God Himself, who are any of us to say He was wrong in that judgement?

john316
12-30-2006, 09:04 AM
Maybe I'm too much of an optimist but I think that in prison at least he has the chance to really think about what he did and possibly find Christ. "What's the likelihood of that?" someone will probably ask. It doens't matter how unlikely it is. Just the fact that there is a chance, for one more spirit to populate heaven is worth the tax dollars, in my opinion.

Very good point and even thought he is now gone and based on what I know about him the likelihood of him getting in is slim we still need to remember that we are not God...he will have the final say on who does or doesn't make into heaven

alorian
12-30-2006, 09:16 AM
I'm not getting into the whole life imprisonment vs lethal injection (or other) arguement. I believe there's already a thread for that.

I'm glad I didn't see it televised though. I wouldn't want to see a gruesome death like that, whether I believe he should be killed or not. Who would want to see life leave a body like that? *shrugs*

alienyouth9292
12-30-2006, 09:38 AM
I'm not getting into the whole life imprisonment vs lethal injection (or other) arguement. I believe there's already a thread for that.

I'm glad I didn't see it televised though. I wouldn't want to see a gruesome death like that, whether I believe he should be killed or not. Who would want to see life leave a body like that? *shrugs*

millions of iraqis would love to see that man die. to see all the fear and and hurt that they have been through come down on him..

skilletfreak101
12-30-2006, 10:16 AM
i watched saddams execution. i personally think that that's weird that they televised his execution...it was pretty graphic

riz
12-30-2006, 10:28 AM
When is execution not graphic?

timmyrotter
12-30-2006, 10:28 AM
part of me wants to feel sympathy as a human. but then again, think of the people he killed, did he have sympathy for them? the guy was responsible for more deaths than hitler!

as far as what this means for the war on terror. Terrorism is an idea, that cannot be killed, so we a fighting a war that cannot be won, only crippled and maintained.

NightCrawler
12-30-2006, 10:29 AM
Not to be televised, please.

I hope we could get past the criminals-on-pikes mindset (remember those nasty Ninevites?) of showing everyone an example of people who mess around.

timmyrotter
12-30-2006, 10:35 AM
Kudos to the iraqi government!!! if there is one thing that america doesnt try and change about them, its thier swift justice system! if the US or Brittan held Saddam, The US would keep him on death row for 10 years only to have capital punishment abolished in the states by then. Brittan doesnt even do capital punishment, so saddam would get tea and crumpets for the rest of his life.

riz
12-30-2006, 10:41 AM
Timmy, I've had enough of this. It's bad enough you're flaunting the death penalty with gross affection; it's not always the answer. But your criticism and insults toward other nations - and your intense ignorance of them (come on, tea and crumpets is the hugest British stereotypes out there) - makes me request you don't post in this thread unless you have something worthwhile to say.

At least say something like you did in the post before last. You spoke as if you wanted to be taken seriously.

terrasin
12-30-2006, 11:03 AM
I'm glad it's over. It's a shame it had to end like that, but there was really no choice. After watching Saddam in his courtroom sessions, he became even stronger headed than he was previously. This isn't mentioning the danger factor in keeping him in jail seeing as eventually, his followers would have made attempts at breaking him out.

skilletfreak101, how did you watch it? Last I heard, it wasn't to be televised.

CJ

Crusader
12-30-2006, 11:47 AM
Wow, alot of people seem to be saying that they hated Saddam and they are happy he was killed. Also what's up with the people thinking that the OT laws whould still be used. Another thing that I found very odd is that some poeple are saying he killed lots of people and wanst a good person therefore he should be killed. Have you forgoten already what Jesus did. If God thought like that we would all be doomed for hell, sorry to say. But God forgave us, he didnt let us just reap what we had sewn. And we are supposed to model ourselves after God, not the world. I know it's human nature to think that he should just be killed. But why not put him in jail and get a preacher to speak to him or something like that now and then. It would be well worth it even if it took 15 years for Saddam to become saved. By the way...don't hate the person that sins...ever...but instead hate the sin itself...

alorian
12-30-2006, 12:05 PM
Timmy, I've had enough of this. It's bad enough you're flaunting the death penalty with gross affection; it's not always the answer. But your criticism and insults toward other nations - and your intense ignorance of them (come on, tea and crumpets is the hugest British stereotypes out there) - makes me request you don't post in this thread unless you have something worthwhile to say.

At least say something like you did in the post before last. You spoke as if you wanted to be taken seriously.

Thank you Riz


millions of iraqis would love to see that man die. to see all the fear and and hurt that they have been through come down on him..


Televising it would incite a whole lot of hatred, moreso than if it weren't televised. Why would we want more wide-spread and stronger-felt hatred? Sure, it's "justice", but can't it happen behind closed doors?

NightCrawler
12-30-2006, 12:37 PM
Wow, alot of people seem to be saying that they hated Saddam and they are happy he was killed. Also what's up with the people thinking that the OT laws whould still be used. Another thing that I found very odd is that some poeple are saying he killed lots of people and wanst a good person therefore he should be killed. Have you forgoten already what Jesus did. If God thought like that we would all be doomed for hell, sorry to say. But God forgave us, he didnt let us just reap what we had sewn. And we are supposed to model ourselves after God, not the world. I know it's human nature to think that he should just be killed. But why not put him in jail and get a preacher to speak to him or something like that now and then. It would be well worth it even if it took 15 years for Saddam to become saved. By the way...don't hate the person that sins...ever...but instead hate the sin itself...
I am glad that a murderer recieved his due punishment.

You say it is not due, eh? Why? OT laws were put in place because they were good. If you tell me that they are not relevant to today, I will laugh.

There is a time when you give another chance, and there is a time where you lay your foot down and do not relent. Another chance is when they are willing to repent, Saddam made every effort against that notion. Therefore it was a time to not relent.

Tell me, if you have a mousetrap that is set, ready to go off, do you hope that no one sets it off, or do you disable it? (given that you don't want it to go off) Saddam was disabled, never to set off again. He is done.

Also, in Deut 22 it says that "... God detests anyone who does these things..." ... Detest is a synonym for to hate, to have distaste, to dislike, to have disdain, etc. Then it goes on to say that we must "purge the evil" from this land.

timmyrotter
12-30-2006, 01:19 PM
To Riz: i am to be taken seriously, i was merely pointing out the moral decline of justice in the world. first brittan, now the US is abolishing the very thing that detters future killers!

Crusader: saddam has been said to have been responsible for more murders than hitler. ANY ONE OF THOSE DEATHS IS PUNISHIBLE BY CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. so the justice he recieved was just that, just. and before you begin throwing biblical stuff remember God had people killed for crimes less than a single murder. people have one shot in life, there isnt a rule saying everyone gets a second chance. so if you are a brutal dictator, you not only dont deserve a second chance, you most likely wont recieve that privelidge. every one person is responsible for his/her actions, and there are consequences for our actions.

alienyouth9292
12-30-2006, 02:05 PM
i bet it will be on youtube soon.

Crusader
12-30-2006, 02:50 PM
I know Saddam killed lots of innocent people, not as many as hitler though. And it's terrible that he did kill those people. But if you read all that I wrote, I didn't say just let the man go, what I said was is that he should be put in prison for life... Also when I was talking about the OT laws aren't in use today, I was talking about an eye for an eye etc...Jesus came and changed all that. Another thing that i know is you are supposed to love above all else.

alorian
12-30-2006, 03:35 PM
To Riz: i am to be taken seriously, i was merely pointing out the moral decline of justice in the world. first brittan, now the US is abolishing the very thing that detters future killers!

Crusader: saddam has been said to have been responsible for more murders than hitler. ANY ONE OF THOSE DEATHS IS PUNISHIBLE BY CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. so the justice he recieved was just that, just. and before you begin throwing biblical stuff remember God had people killed for crimes less than a single murder. people have one shot in life, there isnt a rule saying everyone gets a second chance. so if you are a brutal dictator, you not only dont deserve a second chance, you most likely wont recieve that privelidge. every one person is responsible for his/her actions, and there are consequences for our actions.

I think the total loss of freedom is quite a determent..

God has also given grace to those who have committed terrible sins, has he not?

Tromos
12-30-2006, 03:52 PM
I think the OT punishments should still be in effect. A life for a life. That was a commandment from God Himself, who are any of us to say He was wrong in that judgement?

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." - John 13:34



There is a time when you give another chance, and there is a time where you lay your foot down and do not relent. Another chance is when they are willing to repent, Saddam made every effort against that notion. Therefore it was a time to not relent.

Tell me, if you have a mousetrap that is set, ready to go off, do you hope that no one sets it off, or do you disable it? (given that you don't want it to go off) Saddam was disabled, never to set off again. He is done.

Also, in Deut 22 it says that "... God detests anyone who does these things..." ... Detest is a synonym for to hate, to have distaste, to dislike, to have disdain, etc. Then it goes on to say that we must "purge the evil" from this land.


"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times"
- Matthew 18:21-22

Crusader
12-30-2006, 05:14 PM
thank you tromos

I Bite
12-30-2006, 05:37 PM
skilletfreak101, how did you watch it? Last I heard, it wasn't to be televised.

CJ

I don't know how he saw it...But I know that when I logged onto Yahoo! the video was on there..

BarlowgIRL
12-30-2006, 07:18 PM
Hmm, I think Timmy has a point though. In America, if someone is convicted for killing someone and EVERYONE is convinced they did it, they still sit in prison for ever and then maybe/eventually they are killed by lethal injection with sterile needles cause the person that's about to die in seconds just can't contract AIDS.

But, yeah, I'm for Saddam being killed(like he was). And almost everyone polled where I live agreed that he should die.Just my two cents.

timmyrotter
12-31-2006, 01:00 AM
whatever guys, i believe what i believe, and you should respect that.

skynes
12-31-2006, 07:52 AM
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." - John 13:34



And exactly what connection does a commandment to how Jesus' disciples are to treat each other got to do in ANY way shape or form with the justice system toward a murderer?

Nothing.

What does a command Jesus gave on how person is to deal with an offense of another got to do with the justice system toward a murderer?

again, nothing.

To God, nothing has changed with His Laws. He said murderers are to die then and He still wants murderers to die now. He does not change.

New covenant or not, His Laws did not change. He is still the same God 4000 years ago that He is today. He commanded that murderers are to die on the account of two or three witnesses. Who are any of you to declare otherwise?

Timmy, I've had enough of this. It's bad enough you're flaunting the death penalty with gross affection; it's not always the answer. But your criticism and insults toward other nations - and your intense ignorance of them (come on, tea and crumpets is the hugest British stereotypes out there) - makes me request you don't post in this thread unless you have something worthwhile to say.

At least say something like you did in the post before last. You spoke as if you wanted to be taken seriously.

Timmy is 100% correct in what he said. In the UK he'd end up sitting in jail for 10-12 years then let out for good behaviour. Ignorance of the UK? He was being sarcastic and using hyperbole to make a point. That the US and UK justice systems STINK. I can't speak for the US, but I can tell you the UK system sucks beyond all possible belief.


As for the death penalty not always being the answer. It depends on the situation. Scripture makes it quite clear what those situations are.

------------

Know what I've seen mostly in this thread? OPINIONS. Know what opinions are worth? Less than nothing.

Build your reasoning upon scripture, not what you think.

You claim to be Christian, you claim to build your life upon scripture then SHOW IT! Give scripture to support your thinking, give scripture to support you reasoning.

Capital Punishment is a serious topic, nothing less than the Word of God should be used in discussing it.

timmyrotter
12-31-2006, 10:15 AM
And exactly what connection does a commandment to how Jesus' disciples are to treat each other got to do in ANY way shape or form with the justice system toward a murderer?

Nothing.

What does a command Jesus gave on how person is to deal with an offense of another got to do with the justice system toward a murderer?

again, nothing.

To God, nothing has changed with His Laws. He said murderers are to die then and He still wants murderers to die now. He does not change.

New covenant or not, His Laws did not change. He is still the same God 4000 years ago that He is today. He commanded that murderers are to die on the account of two or three witnesses. Who are any of you to declare otherwise?



Timmy is 100% correct in what he said. In the UK he'd end up sitting in jail for 10-12 years then let out for good behaviour. Ignorance of the UK? He was being sarcastic and using hyperbole to make a point. That the US and UK justice systems STINK. I can't speak for the US, but I can tell you the UK system sucks beyond all possible belief.


As for the death penalty not always being the answer. It depends on the situation. Scripture makes it quite clear what those situations are.

------------

Know what I've seen mostly in this thread? OPINIONS. Know what opinions are worth? Less than nothing.

Build your reasoning upon scripture, not what you think.

You claim to be Christian, you claim to build your life upon scripture then SHOW IT! Give scripture to support your thinking, give scripture to support you reasoning.

Capital Punishment is a serious topic, nothing less than the Word of God should be used in discussing it.

thanks for your input scott. i dont think what i said was too extreme, perhaps i should have put a smiley face after to show my jokingness... if someone cracked a joke about the US i wouldnt care. its not like i was pointing out something bad about the UK.

alienyouth9292
12-31-2006, 10:20 AM
it is just a bad matter anyway....and besides, he is dead. it's over. we can't change it now.

Crusader
12-31-2006, 10:35 AM
And exactly what connection does a commandment to how Jesus' disciples are to treat each other got to do in ANY way shape or form with the justice system toward a murderer?

Nothing.

What does a command Jesus gave on how person is to deal with an offense of another got to do with the justice system toward a murderer?

again, nothing.

To God, nothing has changed with His Laws. He said murderers are to die then and He still wants murderers to die now. He does not change.

New covenant or not, His Laws did not change. He is still the same God 4000 years ago that He is today. He commanded that murderers are to die on the account of two or three witnesses. Who are any of you to declare otherwise?



Timmy is 100% correct in what he said. In the UK he'd end up sitting in jail for 10-12 years then let out for good behaviour. Ignorance of the UK? He was being sarcastic and using hyperbole to make a point. That the US and UK justice systems STINK. I can't speak for the US, but I can tell you the UK system sucks beyond all possible belief.


As for the death penalty not always being the answer. It depends on the situation. Scripture makes it quite clear what those situations are.

------------

Know what I've seen mostly in this thread? OPINIONS. Know what opinions are worth? Less than nothing.

Build your reasoning upon scripture, not what you think.

You claim to be Christian, you claim to build your life upon scripture then SHOW IT! Give scripture to support your thinking, give scripture to support you reasoning.

Capital Punishment is a serious topic, nothing less than the Word of God should be used in discussing it.

The part when you said God's covenant didn't change isn't correct...I would encourage you to read this http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/otl/otl04.htm

timmyrotter
12-31-2006, 10:44 AM
im human, not God. i was saying what i believe, my interperatation of law, and justice.

terrasin
12-31-2006, 11:23 AM
I agree with Timmy and Scott on this one.

Saddam and his minions didn't give us a choice in the matter. He had to be killed in order for violence to cease. Granted, it may not be today, tomorrow, or in a month, but to keep him alive and in a prison would keep his followers continuing to try and free him which would result in more death and more destruction. Luckily, it's been done before any major attacks took place.

On the justice side, Jesus did speak of love, but love does not in any way void justice nor does NT void the OT and the laws that God spoke himself during that time.

I am 100% for the death penalty provided there is proof of the crimes committed. A mass murderer like Saddam needs to be dealt with harshly and there is no point in my tax dollars going to pay for their stay in a prison for the rest of their lives, only to die behind bars. Their religion is not my problem either way.

CJ

alienyouth9292
12-31-2006, 11:41 AM
agree with you totally!!!

america needs to suck it up and QUIT blaming Bush for all the problems in Iraq while we're at it. hussein was the reason for the war and now he's gone.

timmyrotter
12-31-2006, 12:30 PM
bush ebing the commander in chief gets the blame, and he deserves it. not to say he is a terrible person, just someone who had the right idea, but the plan didnt work out. but thats a new can of worms. all i will say is that it irks me when people begin counting US deaths like they dont matter. when people are a number, not a person anymore.

skilletfreak101
12-31-2006, 12:59 PM
I'm glad it's over. It's a shame it had to end like that, but there was really no choice. After watching Saddam in his courtroom sessions, he became even stronger headed than he was previously. This isn't mentioning the danger factor in keeping him in jail seeing as eventually, his followers would have made attempts at breaking him out.

skilletfreak101, how did you watch it? Last I heard, it wasn't to be televised.

CJ
it was on the front page of the aol news

Tromos
12-31-2006, 01:10 PM
Scott, I'm confused.

You seemed to imply that Jesus' new commandment was for His disciples, but not for us. Yet the OT Law was clearly aimed at the Hebrews, not other civilizations.

In my mind, you have it backwards. The OT Law was meant for the Hebrews so that they would have a set of rules upon which to form a society. Jesus, by His own words, is the Way. He is the Truth. Jesus did not hate. He was not vengeful. He told us that the answer is to love our enemies and that forgiveness has no limit. What can another man do to us that can begin to compare to the crimes we have committed against God? That's what Matthew 18:23 is all about.

If Jesus interpreted the Law the way I infer that you do, He would have slaughtered the Sanhedrin instead of allowing them to kill Him.

skynes
12-31-2006, 01:12 PM
The part when you said God's covenant didn't change isn't correct...I would encourage you to read this http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/otl/otl04.htm

I didn't say the Covenant didn't change. I said God's Laws did not change.

The 10 commandments that were in effect with Moses, were in effect before Moses and were in effect long after Christ.

skynes
12-31-2006, 01:27 PM
Scott, I'm confused.

I'll try to clear it up then.

You seemed to imply that Jesus' new commandment was for His disciples, but not for us.

We are Jesus' disciples. So the new commandments apply to us.

Yet the OT Law was clearly aimed at the Hebrews, not other civilizations

Read Romans. Especially where Paul speaks of the law and its importance. He makes it to be that the Law of God applies to everyone Hebrew or not.

Are you suggesting that "thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery" and their consequences don't apply to us? I know you're not, but that is the Law that applies to all of us, including Saddam Hussein. The punishment for murder was death. Nothing in the New Testament said God changed His mind about the punishment for sin.

In my mind, you have it backwards. The OT Law was meant for the Hebrews so that they would have a set of rules upon which to form a society.

The apostle Paul would disagree with you. He taught that the purpose of the Law was to make sin known. Not just to Jews, but to everyone.

Jesus, by His own words, is the Way. He is the Truth. Jesus did not hate. He was not vengeful. He told us that the answer is to love our enemies and that forgiveness has no limit.

So are you suggesting that Jesus taught that murderers, thieves and rapists should be let to walk free? That we should love them instead of exacting justice? (I really hope not)

Jesus was not hateful, nor was He vengeful, but He was and is Just. Justice is not vengeful nor hateful. Justice is rendering to criminals the punishment they deserve.

We aren't going to face Justice, because Jesus faced it for us. He took the Justice we deserve, but that ONLY applies to those who have accepted Him.

Regardless of accepting Him or not, we must still face the penalty for our earthly crimes. If a man murders, then accepts Christ, he must still lose his life because of that murder.

David murdered a man and took Bethsheba as his wife, though he repented and his life spared, the life of their child was not spared.

God said that a murderers punishment is death.

What can another man do to us that can begin to compare to the crimes we have committed against God? That's what Matthew 18:23 is all about.

And at judgement day those who have committed crimes against God and have not believed in His Son get a nice human bake sale in the lake of fire.

I don't see the relevance of this though to a criminal. Demanding Justice is not vengeful nor hateful. It's the right thing to do.

Saddam Hussein has done nothing to me personally, I'm not hateful toward him. But people lost their lvies because of him and God's Word says that murderers are to die. So I believe that Saddam Hussein had to die, because that is what God decreed.

If Jesus interpreted the Law the way I infer that you do, He would have slaughtered the Sanhedrin instead of allowing them to kill Him.

Sorry I don't know what you're getting at. Jesus will judge the Sanhedrin for their sins just as He will everyone else who has rejected Him (excluding those of the Sanhedrin who did accept Him).

Crusader
12-31-2006, 02:32 PM
I didn't say the Covenant didn't change. I said God's Laws did not change.

The 10 commandments that were in effect with Moses, were in effect before Moses and were in effect long after Christ.


Oh ok, I thought you were saying the whole eye for eye tooth for tooth thing didn't get changed.

dieingdaylight
12-31-2006, 02:54 PM
Saddam Hussein was executed today. I don’t know much about politics or even the issues surrounding the trial that led to his sentencing, and certainly I did not know Mr. Hussein personally. But, certain friends and family members have discussed the issue in passing and some of this discourse I was startled by. As the conclusion to Hussein’s trial was televised I heard comments from those around me along the lines of: “Good, I’m so glad they’re hanging him”, “He’ll burn in Hell” and “I think they should do to him exactly what he has done to others”… Maybe you’ve heard people say things like this; maybe you’ve said them yourself. There isn’t anything unusual about this line of thought; this is a very instinctual way of thinking for us… an eye for an eye…

“You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also…” – Matthew 5:38-39

In Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, he talked about the “eye for an eye” philosophy, he said it was wrong. The thing that startled me about the things I heard being said, is that the people who were saying them were Christians. This means they should be more inclined to be deeply saddened by waste of life caused by Hussein and by the loss of his own life… grieved to the core that someone could be lost in such a way and neglect the truth. According to what I believe, Jesus Christ died so that Saddam Hussein could live. Jesus Christ loves Saddam Hussein with a passion I will never understand, and he wanted nothing more than for Mr. Hussein to know the truth so that they might be together forever. Incidentally, myself, being a follower of Christ, I am called to love Saddam Hussein with this same passion. Not his sin, but he himself, surely he was loved by my Jesus. This love of Christ, the love that must dwell in me as a Christian, what love celebrates the death of another human being? What love wishes for another to be separated from God forever? What love neglects Jesus’ very words so stubbornly as to say: “Give me this man’s eyes, he took the eyes of others”…
The sin inside Saddam Hussein, that very same sin is also inside my own heart. I despise this sin, but I also nurture it and let it prey on me daily. However, I have been given privy to a great truth, and this truth has set me free. If, before Saddam hung lifelessly at the end of some horrible rope, he did not accept this freeing truth, my heart is grieved profusely.

“If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow. You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect…” –Matthew 5:40-48

Do not make the mistake of delighting in death of a human being, no matter how great the sin may seem to you. This same sin also lurks inside you… the beauty is this, being fully aware of the sin inside you and me, and the sin inside Saddam Hussein, God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). Do not carry yourself in such a way that you say that this death means nothing to you, that this grace is insufficient, that this love is meek. Instead, pray for those whose sin seems so great, celebrate the power of Christ and his love, and grieve in your heart when someone walks away from the truth.


Somebody by the name of Josh Dies posted that. I totaly agree with him.

skynes
12-31-2006, 03:55 PM
In Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, he talked about the “eye for an eye” philosophy, he said it was wrong.

considering it was God who told the people "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" I really really doubt Jesus just said His Father was wrong.

an eye for an eye is another way of saying "Let the punishment be fit for the crime, do not over-punish people". This was because in the day God said this, death was the penalty for pretty much everything. Steal a loaf of bread? DEATH! Jaywalk? DEATH! go 1-kmph over the horse and cart speed limit? DEATH!

It was a radical idea for them to punish people less and to consider how to punish a crime.

The Jews in Jesus' day were ripping the face off it. They were abusing the law, instead of making punishments fit the crime, they were trying to get as much as possible out of people...

Funnily enough it's very much like today's "I'll sue you" culture.

BarlowgIRL
12-31-2006, 04:31 PM
Build your reasoning upon scripture, not what you think.

You claim to be Christian, you claim to build your life upon scripture then SHOW IT! Give scripture to support your thinking, give scripture to support you reasoning.

Capital Punishment is a serious topic, nothing less than the Word of God should be used in discussing it.

What about the law? This is a political debate so why do we need to have the Bible to back up what we believe. What if you come up against someone who doesn't believe in the Bible? You need to be able to back up what you believe and to prove that their religion is wrong in more ways than what just the Bible says. (I'm not saying you don't need the Bible, just that you need to be able to back yourself up with more than just the Bible)

Vuren
12-31-2006, 08:22 PM
Killing him was a mistake, also it gave him to easy of an out, he felt as he was killed that he became a martyr it would have been better(in a lot of ways) to just let him rot in jail. And to the execution being televised...yes i do feel that should have happened(i feel that public floggings and switchings in school should be brought back) because punishment is to much "behind the door". For punishment to be a deterent it should be showed to those it is detering other wise it is futile.

skilletosis
12-31-2006, 08:47 PM
Justice has been served!

terrasin
12-31-2006, 09:10 PM
Killing him was a mistake, also it gave him to easy of an out, he felt as he was killed that he became a martyr it would have been better(in a lot of ways) to just let him rot in jail. And to the execution being televised...yes i do feel that should have happened(i feel that public floggings and switchings in school should be brought back) because punishment is to much "behind the door". For punishment to be a deterent it should be showed to those it is detering other wise it is futile.
First off, they are preventing him being a martyr by not giving the family his body. He will be buried in a private place for a number of years before handing him over. And yes, it was televised to the public of Iraq.

CJ

fire-inside
12-31-2006, 11:36 PM
First off, they are preventing him being a martyr by not giving the family his body. He will be buried in a private place for a number of years before handing him over. And yes, it was televised to the public of Iraq.

CJ
Actually. He was buried in the city he was born in, Tikrit, beside his brothers and sons.

skynes
01-01-2007, 08:59 AM
What about the law? This is a political debate so why do we need to have the Bible to back up what we believe. What if you come up against someone who doesn't believe in the Bible? You need to be able to back up what you believe and to prove that their religion is wrong in more ways than what just the Bible says. (I'm not saying you don't need the Bible, just that you need to be able to back yourself up with more than just the Bible)

I'm not talking to unbelievers now am I? I'm talking to Christians about Christians on a Christian board discussing things from a Christian perspective. So why should I not use scripture to support my claims?

Even when talking to unbelievers I STILL use scripture as my first resource. If by our lives we don't show the relevance of scripture in day to day life, how are people going to know?


-------

When talking to Christians, I should not need anything but the Bible to prove my point.

timmyrotter
01-01-2007, 10:26 AM
scott, im sure there are unbelievers reading this.

skynes
01-01-2007, 11:06 AM
scott, im sure there are unbelievers reading this.

and?

yeah the "fundies say the darndest things" site just got more ammo to shoot me with.

I'm still talking to Christians here. As I said, even talking to unbelievers I still use scripture as my first resource. So it makes no difference to me...

terrasin
01-01-2007, 12:57 PM
Actually. He was buried in the city he was born in, Tikrit, beside his brothers and sons.
Where did you hear that? All the news stations have been saying they buried him in a private place to keep him from being a martyr.

CJ

kittygirl
01-01-2007, 03:13 PM
This is kind of apart from what was just posted, but Saddam was abandoned by his father, and later abused by his step-father. He sexually abused both his sons, and daughters. Very interesting.

Vuren
01-01-2007, 03:14 PM
Where did you hear that? All the news stations have been saying they buried him in a private place to keep him from being a martyr.

CJ

CNN and the BBC reported it as him being buried near tikrit.

BarlowgIRL
01-01-2007, 03:26 PM
I'm not talking to unbelievers now am I? I'm talking to Christians about Christians on a Christian board discussing things from a Christian perspective. So why should I not use scripture to support my claims?

Even when talking to unbelievers I STILL use scripture as my first resource. If by our lives we don't show the relevance of scripture in day to day life, how are people going to know?


-------

When talking to Christians, I should not need anything but the Bible to prove my point.As it was mentioned, there are people on here who aren't Christians...

Like I was saying, this is a political topic so I don't see why we need to use the Bible as a reference. It was asked what we thought about his death. If it said "what does the Bible say about capitol punishment" by all means, USE the Bible. I realize that we need to know the Bible and use it to back up desicions that require more than a "well I think..." but seeing as this is political debate about whether or not killing him was best for the world I mentioned that the Bib;e isn't the only thing needed to form an opinion.

Back on topic:
Near it? that could still mean in a private area...

skynes
01-01-2007, 04:06 PM
As it was mentioned, there are people on here who aren't Christians...

Like I was saying, this is a political topic so I don't see why we need to use the Bible as a reference. It was asked what we thought about his death. If it said "what does the Bible say about capitol punishment" by all means, USE the Bible. I realize that we need to know the Bible and use it to back up desicions that require more than a "well I think..." but seeing as this is political debate about whether or not killing him was best for the world I mentioned that the Bib;e isn't the only thing needed to form an opinion.

Back on topic:
Near it? that could still mean in a private area...

Is God irrelevant in political debates? Does God know nothing of running a country? Is the Bible of such a low importance that we should use other things to formulate our beliefs?

there are people on here who aren't Christians...

and? So I should just not use scripture in case I offend them?

BondageDuck
01-01-2007, 05:01 PM
I think his death was handled properly. HIs own people decided that he would recieve the death penalty, & it was done in a way that he thought dishonorable (by hanging--he wanted to be shot by a firing squad). As has been mentioned before, life in prison would have only encouraged his followers to break him out. That's the last thing those poor people whose families were murdered need. I think his death was justified.

fire-inside
01-01-2007, 10:49 PM
Where did you hear that? All the news stations have been saying they buried him in a private place to keep him from being a martyr.

CJ
The initial reports the night of were that he'd be buried elsewhere. But the following day, Anderson Cooper 360 reported it as Tikrit.

He may have been a monster, but I believe he deserves to have a marked grave where anyone can pay respects as they see fit. If people are going to view him as a martyr, it doesn't matter if he's in Tikrit, a different country or fricken Canada.

terrasin
01-02-2007, 12:42 AM
I read an interesting article about the nurse who's job was to keep him alive while in US custody. The nurse painted an interesting picture of Saddam being a poet, writer, someone who loved to talk about his family and joke around. It's always quite interesting (and sometimes dangerous) to get close to the enemy. A lot of times, they have wonderful personalities that can cloud how dangerous they truly are.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21001330-1702,00.html

It's funny, the book King of Foxes paints that very picture. The main character, Talwin, has to get close to his enemy, the duke of Olasko, by joining his guard in order to find out information for the Conclave and kill him for the destruction of his people. However, when he gets to know the Duke, he finds it nearly impossible to hate him because he believes he is not the monster he wanted to believe the Duke was. In the end, Olasko, while considered a friend, used Talwin as a pawn in political scheme trying to have him killed. When it goes sour and Talwin returns after finding this out, he is cast away to an island prison.

CJ

lamb_servant72
01-02-2007, 03:16 AM
I wonder if when he was talking about his family, if he mentioned how he killed his sons-in-law.

People are usually very different behind bars. This guy...

(Please note before you click this is the true story of a homosexual serial killer.)

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/T/TERRY_michael.php


...poured my coffee every morning, fed and cared for the baby kittens being born inside the prison, worked tirelessly for me in the law library, and joked with me daily.

It was hard to imagine him being the person described on that site. The same was true for all of the inmates who worked for me.

Crusader
01-02-2007, 10:14 AM
Hey just curious, but what does everyone think will happen now that Saddam is dead. I mean do you think his followers would have caused more trouble if he was locked away for life, or do you think they'll cause more trouble now that he is dead and they want revenge?

NightCrawler
01-02-2007, 10:25 AM
Hey just curious, but what does everyone think will happen now that Saddam is dead. I mean do you think his followers would have caused more trouble if he was locked away for life, or do you think they'll cause more trouble now that he is dead and they want revenge?
I personally hope and think it is likely that we struck the shepherd, now the sheep will scatter.

terrasin
01-02-2007, 12:07 PM
Hey just curious, but what does everyone think will happen now that Saddam is dead. I mean do you think his followers would have caused more trouble if he was locked away for life, or do you think they'll cause more trouble now that he is dead and they want revenge?
I think for a while, things will be pretty bad. Even with Saddam dead, you still have 2 major groups who both want to see their new government fall and take the power for themselves. Even after we train their army to a point where they will be able to have some sort of control without the US Army's help, they are still looking at full scale civil war. It all depends on time and how many groups we can disable within that time.

CJ

skynes
01-02-2007, 12:27 PM
Hey just curious, but what does everyone think will happen now that Saddam is dead. I mean do you think his followers would have caused more trouble if he was locked away for life, or do you think they'll cause more trouble now that he is dead and they want revenge?

I hope as Nightcrawler does. But to be frankly honest, I doubt alive or dead would have made ant difference...

alive and jailed: they'll fight, kick, scream and firebomb embassies in retaliation for his 'unlawful lock up'

dead and buried: they'll fight, kick, scream and firebomb embassies in retaliation for his 'unlawful murder'

timmyrotter
01-02-2007, 04:47 PM
its up on youtube, off a cellphone camera.

alorian
01-02-2007, 05:30 PM
Alive and jailed would have brought about confusion and a foul odor.

Tromos
01-03-2007, 04:29 AM
Alive and jailed would have brought about confusion and a foul odor.

Sounds just like a daycare! ;D

Quadripedman
01-03-2007, 05:59 PM
He's ? Lol. I didnt know it had happened.

I'm for his .

Recently I've the argument that every life is sacred, so Saddam shouldn't be killed because his life is sacred too.

I think that's backwards, I think that BECAUSE every life is sacred Saddam should be killed. There is noone on earth capable of making a judgement on sacred lives, only God can do that, so it'd be best to obey God and send him on a one way trip to God's throne to face judgemnt for all the sacred lives he's destroyed.


wow. that is a VERY interesting presprective, but, in sending him to God's throne (by him) we are breaking God's law, so isnt that wrong in its self?

im anti-death in all ways so...

timmyrotter
01-03-2007, 06:10 PM
wow. that is a VERY interesting presprective, but, in sending him to God's throne (by him) we are breaking God's law, so isnt that wrong in its self?

im anti-death in all ways so...

that doesnt make sense. God's law can be taken different ways, i think certian crimes deserve different consequences. in the bible people were killed for much less than murder.

i believe capital punishment is good for more than just the punishment on the offender. but also as the greatest deterrent for future offenders (meaning, making an example of his death. if you murder, this will happen to you too.). if we let up on capital punishment, whats to stop people from killing other people, if they know they can get away with 25 years for murdering someone, they might just go ahead and do it. when they wouldnt have if they knew they would be put to death.

thoughts?

terrasin
01-03-2007, 10:41 PM
I believe it's because America doesn't practice capital punishment that we have a lot of the problems in this country that we have. These "Career Criminals" don't care about punishments.

CJ

lamb_servant72
01-03-2007, 10:44 PM
"Career Criminal" - one who does time on the installment plan

skynes
01-04-2007, 04:00 AM
wow. that is a VERY interesting presprective, but, in sending him to God's throne (by him) we are breaking God's law, so isnt that wrong in its self?

im anti-death in all ways so...

Did you read any of my later posts?

How are you breaking God's Law by OBEYING Him? He commanded that murderers be put to death, how on earth can obeying God be sin!?

Tromos
01-04-2007, 10:33 AM
He also commanded that we not kill.

So which is it?

Pick whichever suits you and quote the Torah as appropriate?

skynes
01-04-2007, 01:10 PM
He also commanded that we not kill.

So which is it?

Pick whichever suits you and quote the Torah as appropriate?

... I'm officially getting annoyed now.

The bible says "do not murder"

The bible says "those that are proven to be murderers are to die"

Black and freaking White. How much clearer do you need it to be!?

Crusader
01-04-2007, 01:14 PM
Scott...I dont think your understanding what Jesus did for us. He made it so it was no longer a tooth for a tooth or an eye for an eye. Haven't you heard about this before, how He made a new covenant? It's sort of like we dont stone a woman who commits adultery anymore, nor are we supposed to.

weebird20
01-04-2007, 01:14 PM
Tromos...does God say 'you shall not kill' or 'you shall not murder'?

just cus i think this cud make a big difference...what do the orginal words mean?

-----------------------

hey Crusader...could you possibly provide some scripture to back up what your a stating...not saying that your wrong...but it seems like you are implying that God made a new covenant which made the 10 commandments no longer needed...

terrasin
01-04-2007, 01:42 PM
Tromos...does God say 'you shall not kill' or 'you shall not murder'?

just cus i think this cud make a big difference...what do the orginal words mean?
Here lies the important difference.

Kill:
1. to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.
2. to destroy; do away with; extinguish

Murder:
1. the killing of another human being under definitions that include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation

The commandment in it's original text states "Thou Shalt Not Murder", not kill.

CJ

timmyrotter
01-04-2007, 01:56 PM
i personally dont care if its in the bible or not, remember those video clips during the 90's of the kurds(i beleieve) being ruthlessly sloughtered at the hands of saddam. killing women and childre in cold blood. the murder of one innocent life is enough proof to put him to death.

weebird20
01-04-2007, 02:21 PM
okies i found a few verses in Acts 25...don't think anyone has mentioned them yet...

10 So Paul said, "I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know.

11 For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar."

here Paul says that he is willing to die if he has done anything deserving of death...since Paul knew the teachings of Jesus...and if in fact Jesus had made a new covenant that did away with the law of a life for a life...would he not have objected to it?

dawn of light
01-04-2007, 02:55 PM
if we let up on capital punishment, whats to stop people from killing other people, if they know they can get away with 25 years for murdering someone, they might just go ahead and do it. when they wouldnt have if they knew they would be put to death.
Most murders are committed as crimes of passion, not cold and calculating. So it really would only be a deterent to those who plan to commit murder.

terrasin
01-04-2007, 03:19 PM
Most murders are committed as crimes of passion, not cold and calculating. So it really would only be a deterent to those who plan to commit murder.
I'm not sure I agree here. While I'm sure some murder is accidental, I think that passion would quickly fade if we had stricter punishments against murder. As of now, people have very little self-control over how they react to things and let their emotions drive their actions.

CJ

Spiffles
01-04-2007, 04:13 PM
I think execution is the easy way out.
I think sticking him in a rotten stinky small little cell with just a little water and bread, a small little hole for sunlight and no accessorys for entertainment(books etc..) That would have been worse then execution.

Plus the punishment does NOT fit the crimes...
For the punishment to fit the crime, Sadam would have to be executed thousands of times..
1 death for thousands of deaths isnt fitting the crimes. *shrugs*

I personally think that ,besides from the innocent civilian deaths Sadam ordered, he ran the country how it was needed.
The puppet governemnt that is in now is in my oppinion doing a worse job. The violence between the different groups is much worse then it was before..
I honestly dont think democracy will work in Iraq.. Bring back a dictator or something similar. (just not one that wil order deaths of innocent civillians)



... I'm officially getting annoyed now.

The bible says "do not murder"

The bible says "those that are proven to be murderers are to die"

Black and freaking White. How much clearer do you need it to be!?

To be more clearer, you could actually say where the bible says those things.
You are always saying to use scripture in arguments...
But just saying "the bible says so" doesnt counnt as using scripture.
So to be clearer reference the comments with where in the bible they come from.
I'm not trying to be a prick, but you did ask how to be clearer, and thats how. Not everyone knows where to look in the bible, and i doubt everyone will just beleive "the bible says..."
I'm not doubting thats what the bible says, but i'm not everyone else..


I personally hope and think it is likely that we struck the shepherd, now the sheep will scatter.

That would be the best thing, but I doubt it will happen.
Sadam wasnt stupid. He had leadership structures. It wasnt him and a whole heap of "sheep"
It was him, people under him, people under them and then sheep (insert more leadership stages if you wish... i just stoped cause you should all get the point)

dawn of light
01-04-2007, 04:13 PM
While I'm sure some murder is accidental
No I didn't mean accidental.

As of now, people have very little self-control over how they react to things and let their emotions drive their actions.
This is what I meant.
Scenario: a man comes home to find his wife in bed with another man. In an instant he grabs his gun and shoots one of them in the head. Later he thinks "What did I do??"

This wasn't a cold hearted act that he planned out, rather something he did because he couldn't control his anger/hurt/rejection. He's not going to stop and think to himself "hmmm, death penalty, maybe I shouldn't do this." Because if he stopped long enough to think that or anything else for that matter, he'd probably realize he didn't want to kill anyone, no matter what the punishement was.

^^ crime of passion not reason.

Tromos
01-04-2007, 05:14 PM
... I'm officially getting annoyed now.

And that signals my official cue to back off.

My personal opinion is that killing another human being is wrong. Killing unborn babies is wrong. Killing innocent people that have already been born is wrong. Killing someone who has wronged me is wrong. Personal opinion.

If I am to stand and declare myself "Pro-Life" then I must defend all human life, regardless of circumstances. It's what I think and what I believe because that's what I truly believe Jesus wants from me.

But I'm not going to tear down a brother (or sister) to prove I'm "right". I don't know if I'm right. I only know that it's right for me.

Love ya, Scottie. My pride's not worth the fight.

Crusader
01-04-2007, 05:30 PM
Dave your an amazing guy

Crusader
01-04-2007, 05:35 PM
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39. Theres the verse everyone

timmyrotter
01-04-2007, 05:38 PM
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39. Theres the verse everyone

oh... its all coming together. we let saddam go free and kill more people. thanks for sheding some light one that.

but seriously besides your skewed interpretation of the "new covenant" why should a man who is responsible for millions of executions, and countless murders at his own hands, not be put to death?

timmyrotter
01-04-2007, 05:40 PM
i mean no disrespect towards anyone btw.

Crusader
01-04-2007, 05:41 PM
Here's another verse...43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

-Matt.5:43-48

alienyouth9292
01-04-2007, 05:48 PM
look guys, you have some nice verses and all, but i believe this:

IF YOU KILL SOMEONE, YOU SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH

Crusader
01-04-2007, 05:54 PM
It's just I try to think like God would, and try to model my life after him. I don't like just doing what "I" think is right, you know?

Crusader
01-04-2007, 05:55 PM
Lets not get mad, its supposed to be a discussion, not an argument

alienyouth9292
01-04-2007, 05:58 PM
yea. god would do justice to him because he knows his personal life with religion.

timmyrotter
01-04-2007, 06:01 PM
im not gonna try and be God. i dont want to have to judge people, if somone commits an offense deserving death on earth, send him on to God.

Crusader
01-04-2007, 06:03 PM
how do you know that though?

timmyrotter
01-04-2007, 06:05 PM
know what? be specific

Crusader
01-04-2007, 06:24 PM
Sorry i guess i posted that as you were posting yours...ment to be directed at alienyouth9292

alienyouth9292
01-04-2007, 06:32 PM
i'm just guessing...i can't "know"!!!

Crusader
01-04-2007, 07:11 PM
and we can't guess at what God thinks

as~i~lay~dying
01-04-2007, 07:47 PM
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39. Theres the verse everyone

So ... if someone was to be raped, would the rapist be raped? I don't think this verse is talking literally. ? perhaps?

I agree that we cannot say who lives or dies. In the bible times, God was the judge of who was killed- through men. Maybe its just the compassionate side of me that makes me so against capital puishment ... but thats what I believe.

terrasin
01-04-2007, 08:44 PM
So ... if someone was to be raped, would the rapist be raped? I don't think this verse is talking literally. ? perhaps?
In prison? Probably. ;P

CJ

timmyrotter
01-04-2007, 09:02 PM
hey it happens. just dont drop the soap.

skynes
01-05-2007, 01:37 AM
To be more clearer, you could actually say where the bible says those things.
You are always saying to use scripture in arguments...
But just saying "the bible says so" doesnt counnt as using scripture.
So to be clearer reference the comments with where in the bible they come from.
I'm not trying to be a prick, but you did ask how to be clearer, and thats how. Not everyone knows where to look in the bible, and i doubt everyone will just beleive "the bible says..."
I'm not doubting thats what the bible says, but i'm not everyone else..


I was really irritated, not thinking clearly and didn't think to put them in. I'll fix that now.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder"
Deuteronomy 5:17 "You shall not murder

Exodus 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."

Exodus 21:14 "But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die."

And that signals my official cue to back off.


I don't want you or anyone to back off. I just want people to take scripture seriously and use it. But I appreciate it.


You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39. Theres the verse everyone

Jesus was talking about our attitudes toward evil. People took an eye for an eye and used it for bitterness and revenge, not justice as it was supposed to. Eye for an eye meant "Let the punishment fit the crime" and although we can't execute Saddam 1000's of times for what he's done. He now has to face God's Wrath and that WILL fit the crime.

Back to the point. What Jesus was now teaching was that we should not have a vengeful and bitter attitude. But that we should be loving even to our enemies. It was not as you're suggesting a method of managing Civil Justice.

e.g.
A man kills another premeditated. He commits murder.

Those close to the deceased, by Jesus' teachings, should be loving and forgiving toward that man. But at the same time the Law demands Justice, this man must be handed over to the rulers who are to give him the punishment described in the law.


Jesus' teachings by no means overrule the Law. He Himself said in Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. "

Jesus did not abolish the Law, He made the Laws harder!

where the law said: You shall not murder.
Jesus made it harder by addding: To Hate, is to murder.

Where the law said: You shall not commit adultery.
Jesus made it harder by adding: To lust after someone, is to commit adultery.

As for the 'loving your enemy' Jesus gave examples of how to act out this love.

All found in Matt 5

"But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." - Do not retaliate with violence, turning a man over to the authorities is not violent retaliation, even if he gets the death penalty, thats not the point here. Punching him in anger is, kicking him in hate is. You, yourself physically retaliating for what's done is what Jesus says do not do.

" If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also." - The Law has been used against you and found you Guilty (hence the succesful sueing), do not resist it.

"And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " - This was Roman Soldiers ordering someone to carry their pack for a mile. Hatred of the Romans was common, Jesus told them to not hate them, but do more than they expect.

"Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. " - Speaks for itself.


Not one of these was an example of Civil Justice, nor can any be applied to Civil Justice. But every example is how we personally are to respond to people. With kindness, love and compassion.

Civil Justice is still dictated by the Law.

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Allow me to me direct. Our beliefs must line up 100% with scripture, not the new bits of scripture or the old bits. It must line up with ALL of it start to finish. God does not contradict Himself in scripture, neither should what we believe contradict scripture.

If anything we believe does not line up with all of scripture, then that belief is a lie.

i'm just guessing...i can't "know"!!!

You can know. Read the Bible.
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I'm sorry for getting annoyed at everyone last night.

NightCrawler
01-05-2007, 11:29 AM
Is this thread on Capital punishment in general, or just Saddam's?

Cuz I have a few arguments for capital punishment.

skynes
01-05-2007, 12:52 PM
Lol, it was originally just Saddam, but we seem to have taken it off on Capital Punishment in general...

I'm actually highly considering starting a new thread to discuss the purpose of the Law. But I wanna see if this goes any further first.

Quadripedman
01-05-2007, 08:08 PM
you should. it would be very interesting.

weebird20
01-08-2007, 08:35 AM
i don't know if my last post was just overlooked or ignored...but please have a read and comment on the verse i found in the NT which shows that even Paul realized there were offences deserving of death...



okies i found a few verses in Acts 25...don't think anyone has mentioned them yet...

10 So Paul said, "I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know.

11 For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar."

here Paul says that he is willing to die if he has done anything deserving of death...since Paul knew the teachings of Jesus...and if in fact Jesus had made a new covenant that did away with the law of a life for a life...would he not have objected to it?