weebird20
01-23-2007, 07:46 AM
After reading the thread Shanise (Smash_the_tv) posted on the connections of Satan's fall from heaven and us...it got me thinking about this...

Angels must also have free will to be able to choose whether or not to glorify God...otherwise Satan would never have fallen...but if they have free will do they have a chance to repent of their sins as we do?

I know that God sent his Son to die for our sins...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

But i was just wondering how do angels come into this...do they never have a chance to ask for forgiveness also? where they included in the "world" mentioned here?

Im just throwing this out there...any thoughts?

skynes
01-23-2007, 07:49 AM
Hebrews 2:16 "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. "

weebird20
01-23-2007, 08:16 AM
not wanting to sound like a child...but why?

why are they not offered the same chance of forgiveness?

NightCrawler
01-23-2007, 08:52 AM
Define freewill. What it looks like you are saying is "choose to glorify God", right?

weebird20
01-23-2007, 09:00 AM
ummm...kinda yeah...

lets see...Satan chose not to glorify God in glorifying himself by trying to make himself higher than God...

so if he had that choice to not glorify God (just as we do) would he have the chance to ask for forgiveness (just as we do)

im not talking specifically about Satan here...its just the best way i have to describe what i mean...

skynes
01-23-2007, 10:51 AM
No. The chance for forgiveness we have only comes through Christ. Christ was not sent for the angels, but for the descendants of Abraham.

NightCrawler
01-23-2007, 01:34 PM
No. The chance for forgiveness we have only comes through Christ. Christ was not sent for the angels, but for the descendants of Abraham.
2 Peter 2:
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-30489a)] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-30489b)] to be held for judgment;

Is this what you are referencing loosely?

NightCrawler
01-23-2007, 01:36 PM
ummm...kinda yeah...

lets see...Satan chose not to glorify God in glorifying himself by trying to make himself higher than God...

so if he had that choice to not glorify God (just as we do) would he have the chance to ask for forgiveness (just as we do)

im not talking specifically about Satan here...its just the best way i have to describe what i mean...
Maybe we should make new thread, but... what reason do you have to believe this is what happened?

And I get that you are just using it for an example, but what reason do we have to believe that angels ever had a choice?

skynes
01-23-2007, 02:28 PM
No, I wasn't referencing that actually, but thats a good one. I was more referencing the romans theme and the promise to Abraham stuff.

Maybe we should make new thread, but... what reason do you have to believe this is what happened?

It's in Ezekiel. Around chapter 28 methinks.

And I get that you are just using it for an example, but what reason do we have to believe that angels ever had a choice?

Where do I begin? Sin is a choice to rebel against God, for one.
God's justice renders what is deserved to those who deserve it, but if they were only doing what they were built to do, condemning them for it is silly (the point where Calvinism dies).
Ezekiel says that Satan was in Eden at the beginning of the world, that He glorified God until he rebelled. So somewhere a choice was made, to make himself God.

weebird20
01-24-2007, 04:25 AM
Maybe we should make new thread, but... what reason do you have to believe this is what happened?

believe what happened? do you mean Satan trying to make himself higher than God? i don't know exactly what made Satan fall...but through passages in the Bible which mention him...like the one suggested by Scott in Ezekiel it seems to be his pride is what caused him to fall...and pride being...when you think higher of yourself than you ought to...but i was just using this as an example :P

And I get that you are just using it for an example, but what reason do we have to believe that angels ever had a choice?

yeah and i know Scott answered this one too...but i wondered how...if they didn't have a choice how was Satan able to allow pride to get the better of him so to speak...and cause himself to be cast of of heaven...

kittygirl
01-25-2007, 04:27 PM
Well, it sounds like angels DO have free will, because they can choose whether or not to serve God.

but I believe that the reason that there is not a redeemer of fallen angels, is because we are His special creation. We are more important to Him than the angels.

kybz
01-30-2007, 03:54 AM
Angels must also have free will to be able to choose whether or not to glorify God...otherwise Satan would never have fallen...but if they have free will do they have a chance to repent of their sins as we do?

But i was just wondering how do angels come into this...do they never have a chance to ask for forgiveness also? where they included in the "world" mentioned here?

Im just throwing this out there...any thoughts?

Well this is a hard one to really put forth an opinion on mainly because there is really not that much said about it in the bible...

I can see why you would think that Angels had a free will of themselves and logically, one would think that it was so because why would God create anything that would act just like a robot when He is so focussed on relationships? He made mankind in His image and gave us free will so that we would not be robotic in our nature, so it stands to reason He would do so with the Angels as well.

As for the redeeming part... I would have to say no. The Angels were Gods first creation, made originally for an intimate relationship with Him in heaven, and therefore I believe there would be a greater emphasis on them in servitude and faith and belief for that fact alone. Again this belief comes from the fact that, that is what He desires from us who are lower than the Angels. Psalm 8:4.

From that passage you can also see that there is a great honour bestowed on us as His second 'image creation' in that He gave us dominion over the earth and all that is on it. So while we have physical dominion, the Angels have spiritual dominion. The bible talks about there being an Angel for every believer.

What I am trying to say is:
Yes, Angels do have free will.
no they cannot be redeemed if they fall because they are higher than us and have more of an emphasis on them being heavenly beings.


Do I have any passages to back those beliefs? No, they are just a personal belief I have.

unshakeable15
01-30-2007, 01:48 PM
Here's a question who's answer might help our discussion a bit. In that verse that states man is a little lower than the angels, what is the word for lower? What is the connotation behind it's meaning?

dawn of light
01-30-2007, 09:01 PM
Here's a question who's answer might help our discussion a bit. In that verse that states man is a little lower than the angels, what is the word for lower? What is the connotation behind it's meaning?
Another question to address is what is the meaning behind "angel"?? I've heard many times from reliable sources that the Hebrew word for "angel" used in that verse is translated everywhere else in the Bible as "God". There was only one time, that particular word was tranlated as "angel". (I don't study Biblical Greek or Hebrew so I don't have proof; just what others have said.)

Hebrews 1:13-14 (AMP)
13Besides, to which of the angels has He ever said, Sit at My right hand [associated with Me in My royal dignity] till I make your enemies a stool for your feet?
14Are not the angels all ministering spirits (servants) sent out in the service [of God for the assistance] of those who are to inherit salvation?
I looked in 5 different translations of the Bible and all of them refer to the angels as ministering spirits sent to serve/minister to those who will inherit salvation.

Why would all of the angels be sent to serve us, if we were created "a little lower" than them?

kybz
01-31-2007, 02:35 AM
Topics of discussion like this one are so hard to really know the full meaning because, really there is so little information in the bible to clear the matter fully. Add to that the translation connundrum of trying to decipher the exact word meant when one word in Greek or Hebrew could have varying meanings, it all makes for one mean headache sometimes! ;D

Yet, the good thing about all of the above is that it sets our mids racing with ideas and possibilities and a hundred conclusions that, in one way or another, could be right.

Hence the beauty of faith and belief in an invisible God...

Just a thought on a tangent lol

newday_7
02-01-2007, 09:11 PM
Laura (sorry this may kind of be a side note i haven't read alll the posts) have you read C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters" ? If not i think you may find it quite interesting. It's about a Higher ranking Fallen angel(demon) writing to his nephew and i think it mentions something in one letter about the fall and stuff. I just think it's interesting to see how C.S. Lewis sees it.

weebird20
02-05-2007, 05:40 AM
Yet, the good thing about all of the above is that it sets our mids racing with ideas and possibilities and a hundred conclusions that, in one way or another, could be right.

yes that is why i like talking about this stuff...i know we may never find out the truth...but i love going through the possiblities :)



Newday...i have read the Screwtape Letters (excellent book)...a few years ago now...so i don't remember the part you pointed out about the fall...but im gona go check that out :) thanks for the tip...

NightCrawler
02-15-2007, 06:56 AM
I think if you accept that humans have free will, then the angels would too. We are fallen, many of them are fallen.