bob
03-07-2007, 06:48 PM
Matthew 5:43-45(NKJV)
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

We've all read this before, Jesus tells us we're supposed to love our enemies. I believe we can all count Satan as an enemy, so logically aren't we supposed to love him? Another question I have is, does God love Satan?

I think that God does love Satan and therefore we should, do I say that we should worship Satan? No. Satan is going to receive justice in the end so its not up to us to worry about him but just deal with what he throws at us. We're supposed to be happy in our trials right?

So does anyone disagree with me?

NightCrawler
03-07-2007, 07:06 PM
How can you love Satan? I mean, how might one demonstrate love to Satan? (random thought... 'satan' is hebrew for accuser, right?)

bob
03-07-2007, 07:10 PM
Satan is Hebrew for adversary I believe. I don't know how one would go about loving Satan. I myself, can't comprehend a being that abhors my existence. So I don't know.

NightCrawler
03-07-2007, 07:14 PM
Well, in my thinking ... how can one love a being without action? And if one is to actively demonstrate care and affection for Satan, I have a hard time thinking of an example of doing so without promoting sin.

[edit]
To my understanding of those verses you provided, one can actively demonstrate love to his enemies (men). One can pray for them, care when it isn't required of one to do so, defend him from slander, etc.

bob
03-07-2007, 07:17 PM
Yes, its really a paradox. There's no way you can express love towards Satan, yet he's an enemy . . . this might be one of those questions without an answer.

Laerasyn
03-07-2007, 07:47 PM
Does that passage refer to anything other than humans? I would say that the context of the passage is mostly focusing on men's relationships with other men: I don't know that you can include angels (or fallen angels) in that category. Therefore I would say no, I don't think loving satan is included in that mandate.

Also, I think NightCrawler makes an excelent point- in the immortal words of dc Talk, "luv is a verb." ;D How can we show or even "feel" love to Satan when we are constantly told to resist him with all of our strength?

alorian
03-07-2007, 09:33 PM
I agree with what Laerasyn says.

skynes
03-08-2007, 03:29 AM
Satan doesn't live in number 666, so he's not my neighbour. So I can't love my neighbour as myself.

skilletfreak101
03-08-2007, 07:06 AM
God's will for our lives is to develop a pure hatred for Satan. Satan's goal is to destroy us and keep us away from God. why would we love him?

NightCrawler
03-08-2007, 07:47 AM
God's will for our lives is to develop a pure hatred for Satan. Satan's goal is to destroy us and keep us away from God. why would we love him?
Back up those claims, please.

bob
03-08-2007, 10:29 AM
why would we love him?

Why should you love your enemies?

skynes
03-08-2007, 11:54 AM
My thoughts:

When Jesus told us to love our enemies, was He referring to our human enemies? Or all of them? Of his human enemies Jesus said "Father forgive them" but of Satan He said "get away from me"

Personally I don't think hatred is a good thing for us to have toward anything. You may think it's a good idea to hate Satan, but he'll just use that hatred to manipulate you to take your focus off Christ.

It is a very interesting question. All I have right now on it are my thoughts as I've never read scipture looking for the answer to this, though now, I may just do that.

bob
03-08-2007, 12:03 PM
Well, when Satan confronted Jesus all Jesus did was respond with scripture, not hatred. So I'd say that maybe yelling outlandish things like "I rebuke you Satan" isn't up for us to do, but we should just focus on what we should be doing instead of what could be attacking us. Romans 8:31 says "If God is for us, who can be against us?" So that basically says we don't need to worry about our enemies.

theelectric3
03-08-2007, 12:17 PM
as it has already been stated, the commandment is for people... not demons.


we should just focus on what we should be doing instead of what could be attacking us.

yes we should focus on what we are called to do. at the same time remember we are running a race, we are in battle and we have very real enemies. so wisdom and balance are needed.

skynes
03-08-2007, 12:22 PM
but we should just focus on what we should be doing instead of what could be attacking us. Romans 8:31 says "If God is for us, who can be against us?" So that basically says we don't need to worry about our enemies.

One word: Suicidal. Scripture tells us to be aware of Satan's attacks, to resist Him and be watchful/vigilant. We are absolutely NOT to ignore them.

Romans 8 is about our security in Christ and the nature of our salvation.

So I'd say that maybe yelling outlandish things like "I rebuke you Satan" isn't up for us to do

Interesting. I'm gonna look up on that. We do have the power to cast out demons, that comes from Christ, but as for the rebuking thing, I dunno. Worth looking into.

Some scriptures I've found:


Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him and did not hurt him.

^ Repeated across the gospels.

bob
03-08-2007, 12:25 PM
Ha, okay, I stand corrected. :)

skilletfreak101
03-09-2007, 08:26 AM
sorry if i just blantly threw out my "belief" or whatever. I actually really don't know, maybe we aren't supposed to actually hate satan himself, but I guess where I was trying to get at was that the only way we are going to deal with Satan and get him under our feet is if we develop a pure hatred toward what he's doing in our lives.

Drizzt
03-09-2007, 09:02 AM
Hating Satan would take our focus off of loving God. We need to be on our guard and resist and rebuke Satan when he rears his hideous head, but if we hate Satan then much of our attention and effort will go to trying to piss him off or something, instead of trying to serve and seek after God. Does that make any sense?

john316
03-09-2007, 05:37 PM
Hating Satan would take our focus off of loving God. We need to be on our guard and resist and rebuke Satan when he rears his hideous head, but if we hate Satan then much of our attention and effort will go to trying to piss him off or something, instead of trying to serve and seek after God. Does that make any sense?

I pretty well agree with the above and we can see an example of this in the book of Jude.Verse 9 tells us that when Micheal the archangel was fighting with satan over the body of Moses he did not bring an accusations against him....he simply said "the Lord rebuke thee"

skynes
03-10-2007, 02:55 AM
he simply said "the Lord rebuke thee"

Which is interesting to me... Thinking back on what Bob said about it not being our position to rebuke demons.

Jesus did give us the power to cast out demons, nothing is mentioned of demons having the same power...

But should we also be saying 'the Lord rebuke you'?

alienyouth9292
03-10-2007, 04:24 AM
i myself will never love satan....he is the face of sin, and i want to focus on shielding him out of my life, not loving him.

in the bible where it says "love your enemies", i think it is referring to earthly beings, not the author of temptation...

Tromos
03-12-2007, 07:01 AM
So, then, is it possible to properly hate sin without hating Satan?

Does anyone argue that it is not proper to hate sin?

So, if Satan is the father of lies and the perpetrator of our sinful desires, can we hate the sin without hating Satan? Even if we can, should we?

Would a heart full of love like Jesus' pity Satan instead of hating him?

alienyouth9292
03-12-2007, 11:51 AM
^ good point.....i really don't know....

V-Ball Queen 32
03-12-2007, 03:41 PM
They say you shouldnt' hate people, hate what they do. Satan is sin, so we can't love anything he does. It's not like I'm stupid and you're not supposed to love stupid people or anything. Satan isn't a sinful being; sin is his being. There's nothing else to him.
Basically, we cant love or be a part of sin, so we shouldn't love Satan a.k.a. King of Sin, if that makes sense

bob
03-12-2007, 05:10 PM
Satan is sin

Satan was created as God's greatest Angel. Satan became too prideful and was thrown from heaven. I don't necessarily think he is sin . . .

unshakeable15
03-12-2007, 08:06 PM
Bob brings up a good point (and one i was going to make, if he hadn't beat me to it).

God is good. It is his very nature. So, he cannot create anything inherently evil. Ergo, nothing God has created is 100% Evil Incarnate (no matter what pop culture says about Satan).

i'm not saying i know what is good in Satan, but he cannot be pure evil, because that would mean God has failed. God and Satan may be archenemies, but one is not the anti-thesis to the other; they are not exact opposites, they are opposing forces.

NightCrawler
03-13-2007, 07:31 AM
i'm not saying i know what is good in Satan, but he cannot be pure evil, because that would mean God has failed. God and Satan may be archenemies, but one is not the anti-thesis to the other; they are not exact opposites, they are opposing forces.
That [equal yet opposing forces of good vs evil] would be what we call Manicheanism! ;)

Does anyone have Scripture to support the claim that we must love the sinner yet hate the sin?

bob
03-15-2007, 12:45 PM
That [equal yet opposing forces of good vs evil] would be what we call Manicheanism! ;)

Does anyone have Scripture to support the claim that we must love the sinner yet hate the sin?


1 John 4:7-8 (NKJV)

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

So God is love.

John 3:16 (NKJV)

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Yeah, we all know John 3:16 . . . so God loved the Sinner (us) but hates the sin.

Romans 5:8 (NKJV)

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

skynes
03-16-2007, 02:43 AM
Romans 9:13 "As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.""

Psalm 5:5 "The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity"

Psalm 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. "

Hosea 9:15 ""All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes are rebellious. "

Malachi 1:3 "But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness." "


*hums*

someoneudontkno
03-16-2007, 08:22 AM
Satan is not our enemy(if any1 can show me scripture that states otherwise, correct me) all the Scripture i've seen refered to satan as "the enemy" not our enemy. he isnt our enemy to love, he's God's enemy. he is simply against us. we dont need to focus on things of this world, but we dont need to be ignorent of them either. we cant love satan as an enemy because he isnt our enemy, but we do need to be mindful of his prescense in the world, because if we completely ignore him he will show up in the worst situations and we wont be ready to resist the attacker. when he attacks us, he's trying to attack God. we are just a method of doing so. satan knows that "God so loved the world" and if God loves us so much, how much would it hurt God to see us look to satan?

Tromos
03-16-2007, 09:02 AM
all the Scripture i've seen refered to satan as "the enemy" not our enemy

That's an awfully fine distinction based seemingly on limitations and rules of the English language. I'd need to see some more conclusive syntactical proof from the language of origin to convince me that there's a meaningful difference between "the enemy" and "our enemy".

And even so, how could the enemy of God not be the enemy of man (who was created in God's image)?

someoneudontkno
03-16-2007, 09:16 AM
being created in His image doesnt bring apon us his power or responsibility. Satan was banished be God and has a grudge against him. and he is trying to hurt god through the god's most precious creation, is he not? we are just pawns in God's magnificent chessbaord, with our own thoughts on movement. at least this is how i've found it to seem. other opinions could be better, and i do need alittle more proof behind me. i do see your point . ill try to look into it a little l8r

Tromos
03-16-2007, 09:52 AM
we are just pawns in God's magnificent chessbaord

And yet, He came here and suffered beyond anything any of us have ever known. He allowed his flesh to be ripped and scarred because he loves us so very very much. Regardless of our perspective, it doesn't sound to me like God considers us just pawns when He treats us like kings.

someoneudontkno
03-16-2007, 11:08 AM
srry. that was simply an expression to get my point across. i meant that in the war between God and satan, satan sees us as, say curency. the more of us he has, the more he has hurt God. but the difference between us and currency is that as hard as satan works for us, some of us will refuse to go to him. some will, and some happens to fall to him w/o meaning to. we are sophisticated beings, as is our creator, but compared to Him we are about the equivalent of pawns, in a cirtain sense. it is a common fact in christianity that we arent treated as pawns, but putting that aside look at the whole picture, even as satan would.. not just how our God treats us. and back on the subject of the thread.. with us being as pawns in a war(for the sake of this argument) we are important, but satan doesnt exactly have us first on his mind, his enemy is God. satan is simply using us a way at God. what other use would we be to him unless to get at the creator. again, plz try and find faults in my mentality, and show me where i am wrong. that's what we're here for is it not? to teach and learn. to discuss until truth is reached? keep quistioning everything until truth becomes apparent. im already liking the people on these baords :)

Quadripedman
03-27-2007, 07:41 PM
i agree with people when they say the the verse is about our human enemies. plus, satan is God's enemy (im tired, sorry...) so we shouldnt love him.

unshakeable15
04-01-2007, 02:41 PM
Who says that because Satan is God's enemy, we shouldn't love him? First off, that assumes that God doesn't love him (which would make God hypocritical, since He told us to love our enemies).

That's not such a given. It's very much open to debate.

bob
04-01-2007, 06:08 PM
That's not such a given. It's very much open to debate.

My point exactly. It just seems to be common sense to hate Satan since he hates us. But nowhere does God say he hates Satan, I mean, he did create him after all.

NightCrawler
04-02-2007, 06:40 AM
My point exactly. It just seems to be common sense to hate Satan since he hates us. But nowhere does God say he hates Satan, I mean, he did create him after all.
Christ said the following about enemies:
Matthew 5:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=44&version=31&context=verse)
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Who says that because Satan is God's enemy, we shouldn't love him? First off, that assumes that God doesn't love him (which would make God hypocritical, since He told us to love our enemies).

That's not such a given. It's very much open to debate.
Hypocritical? But God is a vengeful, jealous God. God told us not to be those, right? God is fully in His right (and nature) to not love someone.

Malachi 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter):
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

unshakeable15
04-03-2007, 01:49 PM
My counter to that is rather weak, sorry. :P

What are the original words used to describe God as vengeful and jealous? Also, don't you think we might have a different idea of jealous or vengeance than they intend?

The same goes for Esau.

Grunge=Fun
04-03-2007, 02:42 PM
My counter to that is rather weak, sorry. :P

What are the original words used to describe God as vengeful and jealous? Also, don't you think we might have a different idea of jealous or vengeance than they intend?

The same goes for Esau.

If you can't take what is said in the bible literally then you can't believe it. Thus you should take what is stated literally. So when it says jealous it means jealous and vengeance means vengeance. If thats not the case then perhaps Jesus didnt really die on a cross because thats not what it really means.

Does anyone on here pray for Satan? I'm guessing no, and why would you? It's not like Satan is going to change.

Tromos
04-03-2007, 03:25 PM
If you can't take what is said in the bible literally then you can't believe it. Thus you should take what is stated literally. So when it says jealous it means jealous and vengeance means vengeance. If thats not the case then perhaps Jesus didnt really die on a cross because thats not what it really means.

See, the problem with that, then, is that now you have eliminated the foretelling of Jesus by the prophets because it's fairly simple to find immediate examples of Isaiah's prophecies in his own time - a young maid with child (the word used in Isaiah could be translated as "maid" or "virgin"), ugly despised men that spoke the words of God, etc. You have to have some sense of allegory in order to appreciate God's far-sightedness.

And Jesus used parables and stories all the time to illustrate his point. In the end, does it really matter if Samson's strength was linked to his hair or if he really killed a bazillion men with the jawbone of a donkey? Is the point any less real if it's just a story?

I agree that some, in fact many, people want to over-examine the Bible. Particularly the New Testament. When you mix too much education with more than a little dash of pride, you normally end up with people who twist Scripture to what they want to say and back it with their "credentials".

But like all things, discernment is key. I don't believe that going absolutely one way or the other is the answer. Though I do believe - if in doubt, take it at face value.

alienyouth9292
04-03-2007, 05:39 PM
"come on guys! let's love Satan!!!"


*sarcasm intended*

NightCrawler
04-03-2007, 05:47 PM
My counter to that is rather weak, sorry. :P

What are the original words used to describe God as vengeful and jealous? Also, don't you think we might have a different idea of jealous or vengeance than they intend?

The same goes for Esau.
Well, it says that God will have vengeance numerous times (I found it on Biblegateway.com and searched for 'veng'). I believe these things are due and proper for Him because why is He jealous? Because people are usurping his authority and not recognizing His worth by turning to deaf-mute false gods. Jealousy would be wrong if, say, there was any reason he should not be jealous. We have reasons not to be jealous, because we share in equanimity with other humans. Jealousy for God is not wrong, it is wrong for us. Likewise with vengeance, God's wrath is not misplaced, ours usually is.

At least that is my understanding.

But it gets even more complicated when you think like I do. For example, I believe God can love and hate at the same time, and that He has two loves -- unconditional for all creation, love in regard to His favour/mercy (which He does not have for all creation). Hence God can love the world, yet hate Esau.

Fun, huh?

If you can't take what is said in the bible literally then you can't believe it.
What? Prophecy is in the Bible. Do you think a dragon actually came out of the water (sea), and that a woman actually gave birth ... while the dragon stood nearby in order to snatch it He was being delivered? [Revelations] Come on. Or how about a huge tree in a forest, filled with birds. Then it being cut down? [Daniel]

Those are definitely figurative and/or metaphorical.

Thus you should take what is stated literally.
Israelites were REALLY more numerous than the stars in the sky? But there must be like... over 10 billion!... Wait. Doesn't earth have like 6.1 billion human inhabitants? ... I guess the same would go for being more numerous than the sand on the sea-shore?

So when it says jealous it means jealous and vengeance means vengeance.
Actually, those words are approximations of what the writers had Hebrew, over 2000 years ago. Our language is Greek and Latin based, not Aramaic or Hebrew. And words change meaning over time. So, we must be very careful about context and probability.

If thats not the case then perhaps Jesus didnt really die on a cross because thats not what it really means.
But... didn't He die on a tree?

V-Ball Queen 32
04-03-2007, 05:56 PM
I don't think we should love Satan. We shouldn't taunt him or make light of him be any means, but we shouldn't accept him into society, either.
This is too controversial for me, so I'm keeping tabs on this to see if I can come to any sort of conclusion.

skynes
04-04-2007, 02:48 AM
Does anyone on here pray for Satan? I'm guessing no, and why would you? It's not like Satan is going to change.

Satan is not capable of changing

Hebrews 2:16 "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. "

fallen angels can never be redeemed.

What are the original words used to describe God as vengeful and jealous? Also, don't you think we might have a different idea of jealous or vengeance than they intend?

I'll look up the words later. (do remind me)

God is a jealous God, because He is the only one deserving of worship and glory yet we give our glory to things which do not deserve it. I would be a little annoyed if MY paycheck that I earned was given to someone else too.

For his vengeance... I'm not sure if God's vengeance and His justice are any different... Have to look into that. It's possible that God takes revenge for His people by administering the justice a person deserves.

But it gets even more complicated when you think like I do. For example, I believe God can love and hate at the same time

As do I. To us, limited humans, the idea of loving and hating simultaneously is impossible. Why can God not do it? God can hate righteously, be jealous righteously and take vengeance righteously.

We shouldn't taunt him or make light of him be any means

Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" "

Grunge=Fun
04-04-2007, 09:43 AM
Actually, those words are approximations of what the writers had Hebrew, over 2000 years ago. Our language is Greek and Latin based, not Aramaic or Hebrew. And words change meaning over time. So, we must be very careful about context and probability.


Let me quote something from this amazing book that I have called "The Big Argument: Does God Exist?"

This part comes from the chapter called "Can The Bible Be Relied On?"

"By the close of the 20th century, nearly all of the Dead Sea Scrolls had been transcribed, transliterated, translated, and either published or nearly published. They did not, as some early critics had speculated, reveal any "lost books" of the bible, nor did they alter our view of the Hebrew Bible. Instead, they scrolls demonstrated the stability of the ancient biblical text, as Dr. Sanders pointed out. This text, in turn, has been preserved in the standard Hebrew edition of the Old Testament, the Masoretic Text."

Now get this!

"...for the Masoretes were Jewish scribes who were utterly dedicated to the meticulous preservation of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Masoreete's duty was to "build a hedge" around the Scriptures, protecting it from corruption or amendment. To do this, they counted every verse, every word, and even every letter in every book of the Old Testament. They recorded how often teh same word occurred at the beginning, middle, or end of a verse. They recorded the middle verse, middle word, and middle letter of every biblical book."

"...archaeologists found that the scribes had given teh total number of words in the book, and recorded which word was teh exact middle, so that later copyists should couint both ways to be sure they had not left out so much as a single letter."

"Strict rules were appied to the cpying of biblical texts: the scribes ink had to be black and indelible, the parchment on which he wrote had to be from an animal elible under the Mosaic Law, and, according to the Talmud, he traced his lines of writing with a ruler and style in order to ensure that they would be straight and uniform. Also mandatory was exactness in spelling, crowning certain letters and dotting others, and following prescribed regulations regarding spacing for sections. Erasures were forbidden; if three or more erors were found on a single page of Scripture, the entire scroll was not to be used."

But this is just the old testament you might say? Well think again!

"Burrows acknowledges that there are many cases of minor variations in wording, but these changes do not affect the main facts of the history or the doctrines of the Christian faith."

Plain and simple... the facts brought across are the same as back in the day. Oh and by the WAY the scriptures were being written in Greek for a lot of the new testament. Who do you think wrote it, Moses? Of course not! Paul was a big contributor and he for one was a writer of Greek.

skynes
04-04-2007, 10:05 AM
You know Grunge, as useful as all that info is (and it is, I might actually look that book up just to read that chapter), it has no connection to anything Nightcrawler said.

What he said was the problem is when you take a Hebrew/Greek word and put it into english. It doesn't always work cause our language works so differently. The Greeks had a half dozen different words to express various kinds of love. We have one.

So what a Hebrew author wrote as 'vengeance' may not have the same meaning of the word we have today.

Today vengeance is spiteful, hate filled and evil. What if the Hebrew author meant to bring disaster as righteous punishment? That's why Nightcrawler suggested care to context.

Oh and by the WAY the scriptures were being written in Greek for a lot of the new testament.

No duh...

Who do you think wrote it, Moses?

Well no. Unless he somehow came back as Zombie Moses 1500yrs later and wrote it.

Paul was a big contributor and he for one was a writer of Greek.

Oh really? And there I thought the "I, Paul" bits of the letters were just a joke...



when you ask an obvious question... expect sarcasm by the truck load.

Grunge=Fun
04-04-2007, 10:14 AM
of course (sarcasm part) ^^^

I'm pretty sure the part that applied to what he was talking about was when I quoted:

"Burrows acknowledges that there are many cases of minor variations in wording, but these changes do not affect the main facts of the history or the doctrines of the Christian faith."

The main facts stayed the same. I'm pretty sure whoever translated it knew what was being said in the original language. If they didnt then we are all doomed because we will never know what is really being said subliminally in the bible :-).

skynes
04-04-2007, 10:21 AM
"Burrows acknowledges that there are many cases of minor variations in wording, but these changes do not affect the main facts of the history or the doctrines of the Christian faith."

The main facts stayed the same. I'm pretty sure whoever translated it knew what was being said in the original language. If they didnt then we are all doomed because we will never know what is really being said subliminally in the bible

Nope, cause he wasn't talking about the original languages. He was saying that we need to be careful of context and purpose as it'd be easy to pull some crazy ideas out of scripture if you don't. Without proper understanding you can claim Jesus promoted homosexuality because He told His disciples to love one another.

If you know that the language had various words for love outside of romantic love, you'll know that Jesus meant nothing of the sort. But He promoted a different kind of love.

Grunge=Fun
04-04-2007, 10:46 AM
When Jesus told a parable it mentioned it was a parable. Then you look up what the word parable means: "a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson."

This is a great example of somewhere in the Bible where you dont take what is being said literally. For myself, I find it hard to take a view of not knowing what the Bible is saying for sure such as a few of you are pretty much stating. If we cant be sure of what is being said in the Bible to literacy then we are living in Blind Faith. If we are living in Blind Faith then none of us can be certain of anything. We know nothing more then the people who created Evolution. Cause basically your choosing a certain verse out of the Bible and pondering if its literal or not. You could do that all over the Bible and wonder but does it make it false?

skynes
04-04-2007, 11:37 AM
... *bangs head off wall*

Not one person here is questioning biblical authority. I am not questioning it and night Crawler is not questioning it.

What is being said is that you need to understand WHAT the bible is saying before you start pulling weird doctrines out of the hat.

When a Biblical book talks of vengeance what does it mean? Is it the same kind of vengeance we use, a hateful spiteful revenge? Or is it meant in a different context? THAT is what we are saying. This has nothing to do with literal passages or the authenticity of scripture. It's to do with human understanding.

For myself, I find it hard to take a view of not knowing what the Bible is saying for sure such as a few of you are pretty much stating.

No we're not.

As I said already, what is being stated is that each of us should study the bible carefully and closely with strong consideration for the meanings of words and the context upon which they are in.

alienyouth9292
04-04-2007, 11:52 AM
i think that God would rather us love other people and tell them about Jesus than even bother focusing on the "father of lies". we shouldn't love Satan or put anything above God....i think that when we even ponder on Satan, Satan is using the situation to put doubt and confusion in our minds....

frymeskillet
04-04-2007, 12:31 PM
In the words of a Pillar song: Love nothing but God, Hate nothing but Sin.

We shouldn't love Satan, we shouldn't hate him. I think we should merely ignore him. He just a gnat buzzing around you're head constantly, annoying the crap out of you. That's why we swat at him and swat at him until we can't stand it anymore and sometimes give up, that's when he gets to you. We also shouldn't turn to the insect and welcome him with open arms, then he'll really get to you.

Therefore, ignore that he's even buzzing around you're head. He may not go away immediately, but he'll know who's boss.



Did anyone understand what I just said? I'm not sure I did myself ;D

alienyouth9292
04-04-2007, 12:53 PM
nicely put:)

skynes
04-05-2007, 02:41 AM
i think that when we even ponder on Satan, Satan is using the situation to put doubt and confusion in our minds....

I think we should merely ignore him.

When you're in the midst of the battlefield, do you ignore the enemy charging at you? No! you arm yourself ready to stand your ground and counterattack.

The Bible tells us to be aware, be learned, be vigilant. It doesn't ever say to ignore the devil.

You ignore him, he will kick you senseless. It's that simple.

NightCrawler
04-05-2007, 06:42 AM
In the words of a Pillar song: Love nothing but God, Hate nothing but Sin.

Ehh... Pillar just lost credibility to me. "Love thy neighbor..." would contradict their saying "love nothing but God"...

We shouldn't love Satan, we shouldn't hate him. I think we should merely ignore him. He just a gnat buzzing around you're head constantly, annoying the crap out of you. That's why we swat at him and swat at him until we can't stand it anymore and sometimes give up, that's when he gets to you. We also shouldn't turn to the insect and welcome him with open arms, then he'll really get to you.

Therefore, ignore that he's even buzzing around you're head. He may not go away immediately, but he'll know who's boss.
Matthew 16:
18And I tell you that you are Peter,[means rock or pebble] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[or Hell] will not overcome it.

To make sense of this passage, remember that gates stay put and are the point which people seiging a city attack. So, we are attacking Satan, his army, sin and everything else which brings men to spiritual death (Hell). We aren't ignoring Satan, we are attacking everything he is and tries to do.

When you're in the midst of the battlefield, do you ignore the enemy charging at you? No! you arm yourself ready to stand your ground and counterattack.



The Bible tells us to be aware, be learned, be vigilant. It doesn't ever say to ignore the devil.



You ignore him, he will kick you senseless. It's that simple.

Sorry, skynes, I accidently skipped your post. You make sense. /\

(thanks for making sense of my posts for Grunge=Fun)

skynes
04-05-2007, 06:59 AM
(thanks for making sense of my posts for Grunge=Fun)


Learn some eloquence, lol. I seem to do this a lot for you ;)

alorian
04-05-2007, 07:39 AM
You ignore him, he will kick you senseless. It's that simple.

AMEN!!!

frymeskillet
04-05-2007, 01:03 PM
Well, I just got ripped to pieces. ;D


What I meant by ignoring him, was ignoring the thoughts he puts into your head the things he wants you to believe and tries to tear you down with. I never meant that we shouldn't fight against him or stand up to him. I guess I forgot about that aspect when I was setting my opinion on one part of Satan's ways. There are ways to forget that he was even a threat to you and still be ready to fight back when he does become a threat.

And about the Love nothing but God thing...Neighborly love is a different kind of love, brotherly love, not agape love like with Christ. But you're right, It was stuck in my head at the time and felt like it pertained. :)


*waits to get ripped apart again* :P

skynes
04-05-2007, 01:16 PM
What I meant by ignoring him, was ignoring the thoughts he puts into your head the things he wants you to believe and tries to tear you down with.

Easier said than done, lol. I can tell you from experience, if you are under demonic attack and they are using thoughts. You will not be able to ignore them. They will scream louder and heavier in your head than your own thoughts. They're so loud that you cannot tell your thoughts apart from theirs.

*shudders at memories*

frymeskillet
04-05-2007, 08:08 PM
Yes, I have felt this before. I was merely speaking as an 'if' kind of thing. I know all to well the feeling of being tormented by the devil...

unshakeable15
04-05-2007, 09:55 PM
You don't stop an attack from Satan by ignoring him. Your time is better spent filling up the space he's taking in your head with something he can't stand. Prayer, Bible passages, meditation on the word as well as the character of God...

Scott, "half dozen" Greek words for love? From my understanding, there are 3-4 (depending upon who you ask, since one is only mentioned once or twice in the Bible).

Grunge=Fun, when i say the word "cheese" i have a picture in my head of cheese. However, when you read the word "cheese" you will most likely get a different picture in your head than the one i have in mine. Is it because you misread the word or i used the wrong word? By no means! It's simply the personal nature of words.

This problem is fixed by illuminating "cheese" and expounding upon what i mean when i say "cheese." Yellow, in a wedge shape, sharp cheddar. That is more precise.

This is an unimportant, silly example, but the same is true (and very much expanded) when the word being written and the word being read are separated by culture and over 1,000 years. All those authors who contributed to the Bible had an Eastern mindset, very different from our Western mindset. Even taking just this into consideration, the Bible doesn't lose anything, it gains.

For example, when Jesus said that "everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life" it is shocking to us, but put yourself in the Eastern mindset that says "your family is your world, your life, your everything" and it takes on an entirely deeper meaning. All because we looked at the text in it's cultural context.

That is all i'm asking concerning the words "jealous" and "vengeful" when it comes to God. It will, hopefully, garner a deeper understanding for all of us of Who God is and what His character is like in relation to mankind.

skynes
04-06-2007, 03:44 AM
Scott, "half dozen" Greek words for love? From my understanding, there are 3-4 (depending upon who you ask, since one is only mentioned once or twice in the Bible).


*shrug* I don't claim to know Greek. I just knew there was more than one. Since I sometimes have a tendency to exaggerate unknown numbers (better too high than too low), more than one is considered half a dozen. Lol.

NightCrawler
04-06-2007, 01:08 PM
Scott, "half dozen" Greek words for love? From my understanding, there are 3-4 (depending upon who you ask, since one is only mentioned once or twice in the Bible).
Philia, agape, eros, storge, and I thought there was one other, but there are at least 4 :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

That is all i'm asking concerning the words "jealous" and "vengeful" when it comes to God. It will, hopefully, garner a deeper understanding for all of us of Who God is and what His character is like in relation to mankind.
Sorry if I made a big deal of it.

Unregistered
04-07-2007, 09:06 AM
I myself, can't comprehend a being that abhors my existence.
I can! I've known plenty of people who honestly do abhor my existence.

To keep on subject, I dunno. I don't love Satan and I don't burn with hatred toward him. I don't like him, 'cause he annoys me. :P

unshakeable15
04-08-2007, 03:20 PM
Philia, agape, eros, storge, and I thought there was one other, but there are at least 4 :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love


Sorry if I made a big deal of it.
No worries, it wasn't you i was directing that comment toward. :)

And those four were only ones i know. The first three are pretty definite, the last one scholars aren't as set upon because of it's lack of use in the Bible.