somasoul
03-14-2007, 12:39 PM
I was riding in my car today and I got to thinking, what are some of the biggest ways Christians can change our culture?

I was struck with the amount of illegal immigrants coming into our country. Most of these immigrants have a past with the Catholic Church, and many more with evangelical churches. It seems they might make a strong ally, considering that there is an estimated 14,000,000 ILLEGALS currently here, not even counting legals.

But mainstream Christianity seems opposed to the comings and goings of these people. I wonder what the use is. These people are not going anywhere no matter how much you like it or not. It seems to me that Christians, who complain about the course of society, could aquire a new larger segment of the population to help them in their struggles against.........oh, I dunno............whatever James Dobson is bothered by this week.

No, instead we seem to be making enemies with these people, all over an issue that is out of our control anyway.

I say, suck it up and aquire these folk before they head on over to the democratic party and make war upon American Christianity........well, really, we would have been the ones to start this "war".

I don't want to start another illegal immigration thread, I just wanted to point out that these people could easily become friends, instead of enemies, and could help the religious right fight against the growing threat of a democratic takeover in American politics. They ain't going anywhere; why not?

DarkestRose
03-14-2007, 02:11 PM
I really don't have much knowledge in the illegal immigration news, so it's hard for me to say. I've had casual acquaintence types of friends back in high school whom I had suspected were not in the country legally, and just on a feelings-based level, I liked seeing them at school. So I was always sort of emotionally feeling tugged both ways between law and mercy.

I'm not quite sure where mainstream Christianity stands. I know that if one means the stereotypical conservative, Republican Christian, then, yeah, they're against illegal immigration. But I imagine the church is so full of different people with different opinions on the situation that it would be hard for me to feel confident that one viewpoint represents the majority.

I do agree that these people could be our friends. I like being on good terms with everybody. I don't quite know about befriending them to help the religious right. I don't feel aligned in either political direction. But I do like supporting them as Christians, and as people. I agree in accepting them for that.

alienyouth9292
03-14-2007, 06:14 PM
i really doubt that the illegals have much faith in God....yea, there Catholic, but that doesn't mean nothin nowadays....

unshakeable15
03-14-2007, 08:48 PM
There is really no way you can make such a widespread generalism, Tim or Jesse. There is no way to categorize such a mass of people into one religious group.

somasoul
03-15-2007, 04:47 AM
There is really no way you can make such a widespread generalism, Tim or Jesse. There is no way to categorize such a mass of people into one religious group.

Really?

Perhaps the most dramatic number: Of the U.S. Church’s 62 million members, a whopping 39 percent are of Hispanic origin

Tromos
03-15-2007, 06:24 AM
yea, there Catholic, but that doesn't mean nothin nowadays....

While I am no longer a Catholic myself, I was for most of my life. And that statement pretty much offended 1/6 of the world's population. Including me.

Well done. ::]

forceflow17
03-15-2007, 06:53 AM
I agree with Tim that as Christians we should love them, not make enemies with them etc..., but would it be so difficult for them to come into the country legally like most immigrants have since we became a country? The God says to obey the laws of our government as long as they don't go against His word, and the deportment of illegal immigrants is clearly one of our countries laws.

Laerasyn
03-15-2007, 07:09 AM
There is really no way you can make such a widespread generalism, Tim or Jesse. There is no way to categorize such a mass of people into one religious group.

(Yay, I figured out how to do the quote thing!!! ;D )
I totally agree. As with all denominations, sects, whatever you want to call them, you're going to get some Catholics in any ethnic group who are simply nominal and some who are truly Christians. Sadly, the "nominal" disease is rampant in America as well as most of the rest of the world. I tend not to equate church membership with true Christianity, as the numbers don't tend to match. I myself can think of many Catholics that are true believers whom I trust, and many protestants who go to church and can regurgitate all the dcotrine but don't believe a single thing. But I guess that's not what this thread is about.
As to the many illegal immigrants in this country, I agree that as Christians we should "be a friend to the friendless," and this group definetly goes through alot. However, there is the slight problem of Romans where we are also commanded to obey authority, which I think clashes with the whole "illegal" thing.
I agree that America, particualrly the church in America, needs a wake-up slap in the face. I also agree that it would be so cool to see American Christians uniting with a group of Christians with a completely different culture than their own (almost unheard of today, at least in my experience). In fact, Christ prayed for that sort of thing in Gethsemane, and I dream of the day that happens all over the world. But it's going to be pretty darn hard if we are not united ourselves.

timmyrotter
03-15-2007, 09:00 AM
I was riding in my car today and I got to thinking, what are some of the biggest ways Christians can change our culture?

I was struck with the amount of illegal immigrants coming into our country. Most of these immigrants have a past with the Catholic Church, and many more with evangelical churches. It seems they might make a strong ally, considering that there is an estimated 14,000,000 ILLEGALS currently here, not even counting legals.

But mainstream Christianity seems opposed to the comings and goings of these people. I wonder what the use is. These people are not going anywhere no matter how much you like it or not. It seems to me that Christians, who complain about the course of society, could aquire a new larger segment of the population to help them in their struggles against.........oh, I dunno............whatever James Dobson is bothered by this week.

No, instead we seem to be making enemies with these people, all over an issue that is out of our control anyway.

I say, suck it up and aquire these folk before they head on over to the democratic party and make war upon American Christianity........well, really, we would have been the ones to start this "war".

I don't want to start another illegal immigration thread, I just wanted to point out that these people could easily become friends, instead of enemies, and could help the religious right fight against the growing threat of a democratic takeover in American politics. They ain't going anywhere; why not?

i agree, lets all roll over and allow these people who are breaking our laws, jepordizing our national security, and national pride, and ally with these criminals. have you no soul?
personally lving in Oregon, i quickly growing, and highly agrigcultural area, i deal with a lot of Mexicans, many legal, but many not. (many legal due to being born to illegal parents, something that also needs to be changed.) many of these people refuse to adapt, and learn our language, you cant get a drivers license without a SSN, but they manage to get around that. they enter here illegally, so what keeps them from continuing breaking the law? our spinless presidential Admistration? America is going to go down the pooper, unless some presidential candidate with a backbone runs, and neither of those will come out of the Rebublican or the Democratic party. so Alaska, here i come!

Tromos
03-15-2007, 11:31 AM
but would it be so difficult for them to come into the country legally

Actually, yes.

Here's your choice: sneak illegally into America or die in Mexico

At this point, the legality of it becomes moot.

unshakeable15
03-15-2007, 12:26 PM
Really?
Perhaps the most dramatic number: Of the U.S. Church’s 62 million members, a whopping 39 percent are of Hispanic origin
Does that say those 39% are illegal immigrants? Nope. Hispanic decent could mean their family has lived in Texas before it was even known as Texas, before it was U.S. property. They are natural citizens, by multiple generations, but they fit under that 39%.

And, as Laerasyn pointed out, there is no way to know the involvement of those people who profess to be Catholic. How many people profess to be Christians, yet go to church/read the Bible/pray when they can find the time?

somasoul
03-15-2007, 12:53 PM
The God says to obey the laws of our government as long as they don't go against His word, and the deportment of illegal immigrants is clearly one of our countries laws.

It is clearly a law, but God commanded the Israelites to be kind to aliens. If the country wishes to deport them, then so be it. My point it is simply this: Our country isn't deporting them so why not make them an ally? Someone might call this "Making the best of a situation".

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=alien&qs_version=31

However, there is the slight problem of Romans where we are also commanded to obey authority, which I think clashes with the whole "illegal" thing.


Did laws stop us from homeschooling our children a quarter of a century ago? Do they stop us from speeding? Do they stop us from spitting on the sidewalk? Do they stop us from drinking underage..........or taking communion in a Catholic church with alcoholic wine?

Laws are lame. We need to stop putting the laws of man before the laws of God. Besides, do the laws of man even matter if the authorities do not enforce them?

I agree that America, particualrly the church in America, needs a wake-up slap in the face. I also agree that it would be so cool to see American Christians uniting with a group of Christians with a completely different culture than their own (almost unheard of today, at least in my experience). In fact, Christ prayed for that sort of thing in Gethsemane, and I dream of the day that happens all over the world. But it's going to be pretty darn hard if we are not united ourselves.

That's a damn good point. This whole "culture war" is about maintaining a society we are comfortable in. What is the biggest complaint among those who oppose this "illegal immigration? "They don't speak our language."

Sorry, last I checked God didn't require anyone to speak any one language, in fact, he even made his diciples speak in a multitude of languages.


i agree, lets all roll over and allow these people who are breaking our laws, jepordizing our national security, and national pride, and ally with these criminals.

Notice that those who are opposed to immigration use "criminals" and "national security" to somehow bolster the argument. Criminals brings to mind violent felons, but when you actually think about what these people are doing.........picking cherries, hacking lettuce......I don't picture criminals at all. The fact is that these people have walked over an invisible line in the sand, a line no one can see. A line made by men, not God. You might bring up the one law they broke to get here (A law that is a misdemeanor, BTW) and you use that to paint these people as violent child rapists eager to overthrow the foundations of human civilization.

It's a strawman.


have you no soul?

And when the argument gets really weak............

(BTW- I sold my soul to an ostrich for five bucks in 1992. (Ask a stupid question.........)

many of these people refuse to adapt, and learn our language,

So your family learned Siuslaw when they entered their land, huh?

America doesn't even have a national language. Like duh.

they enter here illegally, so what keeps them from continuing breaking the law?

The same things that keep you and I from breaking laws. A will to do so, or not. An illegal alien and you can both kill someone just as easily. Well, actually, you could do it easier because it would be less difficult for you to purchase a handgun.

America is going to go down the pooper, unless some presidential candidate with a backbone runs, and neither of those will come out of the Rebublican or the Democratic party. so Alaska, here i come!

American is going down the pooper so you're going to..........ALASKA? Last I checked Alaska was in America......in fact, it is the biggest state in the whole union. If America is going down the pooper, why not leave it and go to Canada? or France? or Iceland? Those places, unlike Alaska, are actually outside of America.

When I wake up in the morning and I think about what is wrong with America, illegal immigrants are pretty far down that list. Democrats. Hollywood. Republicans. These "mothering" groups that want to eliminate freedom everywhere. Violent criminals. Drugs & drug laws. Illegal Immigrants, in the grand scheme of things, don't cause that much harm. I think all these Hollywood nutjobs are a greater concern. Rap music is definetly a concern.

How many people profess to be Christians, yet go to church/read the Bible/pray when they can find the time?

I don't know how you can divy it up like that. No one can know a man's heart, other than God.

These people, statistically speaking, could be an awesome ally. The kind of ally most bornagainrightwingchristians would say could stem the tide of rising socialism and social ills in this country. Instead we create a stupid excuses to not bring them into the fold.

dawn of light
03-15-2007, 01:35 PM
I agree that America, particualrly the church in America, needs a wake-up slap in the face. I also agree that it would be so cool to see American Christians uniting with a group of Christians with a completely different culture than their own (almost unheard of today, at least in my experience). In fact, Christ prayed for that sort of thing in Gethsemane, and I dream of the day that happens all over the world. But it's going to be pretty darn hard if we are not united ourselves.
That's just what I was thinking also. Christians are spending way too much time fighting and arguing amongst themselves about the most minor of details. We need to get our act together if we're going to try and unite whole other cultures.

It's not a bad idea, what you said Tim, I just don't think it's very plausible.

somasoul
03-15-2007, 06:00 PM
It's not a bad idea, what you said Tim, I just don't think it's very plausible.

Good thing God is in the business of the implausible, huh?

DarkestRose
03-15-2007, 06:16 PM
How do you imagine this coming together is going to work? It hasn't really been described in a way that could be applicable to daily life. It has a sort of nice-idea form of vagueness.

timmyrotter
03-15-2007, 06:32 PM
Good thing God is in the business of the implausible, huh?

i think your idea sucks, but what do i know?

forceflow17
03-15-2007, 06:35 PM
let's try and keep this civil guys.

timmyrotter
03-15-2007, 06:49 PM
^ the words of the wise...

dawn of light
03-15-2007, 07:17 PM
How do you imagine this coming together is going to work? It hasn't really been described in a way that could be applicable to daily life. It has a sort of nice-idea form of vagueness.
That's more like what I meant than what I actually said.

somasoul
03-16-2007, 05:04 AM
i think your idea sucks, but what do i know?

Don't worry there, Timmy, God is big enough to change even your quick angry tounge into a tounge that expresses grace and wisdom. Until that happens the Bible says, if I remember correctly, that it is better to not say anything at all.

It has a sort of nice-idea form of vagueness.

OOOHHH! Good point. I'd like to say that I have some idea but, alas, I'm not that smart.

Tromos
03-16-2007, 06:29 AM
Don't worry there, Timmy, God is big enough to change even your quick angry tounge into a tounge that expresses grace and wisdom.

:D For some reason, I find that funny coming from you ;)

skynes
03-16-2007, 07:19 AM
:D For some reason, I find that funny coming from you ;)

Somasoul got buuuuurned! You got BUUUURRRNED! ROFL.


Now that I've had my off-topic bit. Time for my on-topic bit.

But mainstream Christianity seems opposed to the comings and goings of these people. I wonder what the use is. These people are not going anywhere no matter how much you like it or not. It seems to me that Christians, who complain about the course of society, could aquire a new larger segment of the population to help them in their struggles against.........oh, I dunno............whatever James Dobson is bothered by this week.

You prolly didn't intend it, but this sounds very deceptive. Let's be friend with them and win them to our side so when we tackle James Dobson's crackpot schemes we'll have more people than he does.

Would these illegal immigrants get a say in anything anyway? Since they're not even supposed to BE here, would they want to go into the spotlight against an issue?

many legal due to being born to illegal parents, something that also needs to be changed.

Agreed, I don't think illegal parents having legal children makes sense. Until the child is old enough to decide for themselves they should have the status of the parents.

and learn our language

That problem is big over here. We have foreigners, mainly from middle east, come over and instantly go on every benefit there is. They REFUSE to learn english or have their children taught English, instead they use the human rights bill to twist the governments arm into giving them free translators.

Here's your choice: sneak illegally into America or die in Mexico

At this point, the legality of it becomes moot.

To the immigrants, the point is moot. To the law enforcers, it should not be.

but God commanded the Israelites to be kind to aliens.

I don't think illegal aliens was a concept then.

Besides, do the laws of man even matter if the authorities do not enforce them?


Yes.

We need to stop putting the laws of man before the laws of God.

I'm not 100% on the truthfulness of what I'm about to say, but I think that only applies when the laws of men are in direct contradiction to the laws of God.

Sorry, last I checked God didn't require anyone to speak any one language, in fact, he even made his diciples speak in a multitude of languages.


True, but if people want to come to our country they need to adapt to our culture and language, not force us to adapt to theirs.

Notice that those who are opposed to immigration use "criminals" and "national security" to somehow bolster the argument.


It is a strawman and I don't agree with the argument either. I personally have no problems with foreigners coming to the country, but they need to do three things:

1. Do it legally.
2. Adapt to our culture.
3. Provide something to the country.

People who sneak in illegally, live off benefits and don't work nor speak english... I have no time for.

*anticipates the "Would Jesus have the time for then?"*

I don't speak their language. So my time spent is irrelevant. They don't speak English, I don't speak whatever they speak. ZERO communication.

America doesn't even have a national language. Like duh.

Officially, I don't think so. Unofficially it's american english.

An illegal alien and you can both kill someone just as easily. Well, actually, you could do it easier because it would be less difficult for you to purchase a handgun.

They would also find it easier to move unnoticed as by records they don't exist.

No one can know a man's heart, other than God.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

somasoul
03-16-2007, 07:19 AM
:D For some reason, I find that funny coming from you ;)

Am I jerk? If so, I gotta change.

somasoul
03-16-2007, 07:20 AM
Somasoul got buuuuurned! You got BUUUURRRNED! ROFL.


I'll kick your butt. :)

somasoul
03-16-2007, 07:21 AM
Am I jerk? If so, I gotta change.

I'll kick your butt. ;)

Hmmmm...........

*Self Realization hurts.*

Tromos
03-16-2007, 08:02 AM
The comment was meant in jest, but my short history with you here has given me evidence that humility probably isn't your biggest strength :P You have opinions and you aren't afraid to defend them vigorously, perhaps even violently. Submission to authority might be an issue as well. All that being said, I found your comment to Timmy to be a tad out of character.

Does that make you a jerk? gracious I hope not because if so then I'm in a boatload of trouble :o

Moving on to Scotty's comments, I must admit that my perspective is a bit different. I'm convinced that America has succeeded as well as it has because we have integrated foreign cultures instead of smothering them. Without the give-and-take of cross-cultural learning, there would be no St. Patrick's Day here in America tomorrow. No Mardi Gras. No Cinco de Mayo.

Both Timmy and Scotty have pushed this "you adapt to our culture, not us to yours" agenda which I find particularly self-righteous and intolerant. I can understand your frustration when immigrants manipulate the politically correct fears of the government to obtain special rights. I find that equally abhorrent.

There are some real benefits to cultural, political, racial, and religious diversity. To insist that an immigrant abandon their heritage and history in order to live among us just smacks of disrespect and arrogance.

All my humble opinion, of course. hey, can't we all just get along? ;D

jade
03-16-2007, 08:57 AM
While there isn't a problem going on I want to interject a reminder on language. I understand that most of this is in conversational jest, but we still have to keep mind of the laws of the land. (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showthread.php?t=241)

Also, remember to play nice now.

Carry on. :)

somasoul
03-16-2007, 10:13 AM
Agreed, I don't think illegal parents having legal children makes sense. Until the child is old enough to decide for themselves they should have the status of the parents.

!!!!EVERYONE TAKE NOTICE!!!!

One minute people get on my case for telling them to ignore the law, the next they proclaim their own indignation for the law.

At least I'm honest about it.

I'm not 100% on the truthfulness of what I'm about to say, but I think that only applies when the laws of men are in direct contradiction to the laws of God.

We all break laws every day.

True, but if people want to come to our country they need to adapt to our culture and language, not force us to adapt to theirs.

Says who?

1. Do it legally.

Like we did? Hey, at least the Hispanics aren't committing genocide to move here..........like we did when we moved here.

2. Adapt to our culture.

This is not a law or requirement of any kind. The only reason people believe this is because they dislike or feel annoyed by something. And guess, nothing protects you from disliking something! If this were the case I'd ban the sale of brussel sprouts.

3. Provide something to the country.

This is opposed to freedom entirely. Nothing in the American Constitution says that anyone is required to provide anything to anybody. You are perfectly allowed to be a homeless drunkard if you so choose.

Officially, I don't think so. Unofficially it's american english.

"Unofficially" says who?

The comment was meant in jest, but my short history with you here has given me evidence that humility probably isn't your biggest strength

It's my way or the highway, buddy.

I can understand your frustration when immigrants manipulate the politically correct fears of the government to obtain special rights. I find that equally abhorrent.


Amen. Amendment #10.

Tromos
03-16-2007, 10:44 AM
We all break laws every day.

And that makes it okay how? Don't you use the "if all your friends jumped off a bridge..." line with your kids? Since when is the "everyone is doing it" argument valid in a discussion on morality?



It's my way or the highway, buddy.

;D Touché

somasoul
03-16-2007, 11:01 AM
And that makes it okay how? Don't you use the "if all your friends jumped off a bridge..." line with your kids? Since when is the "everyone is doing it" argument valid in a discussion on morality?

My point is simply this:

"Let He who is without sin cast the first stone."
or
If you want these people held accountable, then hold yourself accountable to the laws you yourself break. Crossing the border is a misdemeanor. So is speeding. If we held ourselves to the same standards we hold others we would all be without a driver's license.

Stop picking and choosing which laws you want enforced.

alorian
03-16-2007, 11:36 AM
Oh no you've got it a bit wrong, people WANT speeding enforced... on people other than themselves :P

DarkestRose
03-16-2007, 01:23 PM
I don't know if everybody break laws. I mean, it doesn't seem like a far stretch to assume that there are some people who don't speed or break (insert law) because it is inconvenient. I don't want to get on the debate about how important law is, but I don't like the argument that "everybody" breaks the law, because some people could be law-abiding citizens, in which case the benefit of the doubt should be given to them, and secondly, I don't think that's a strong argument.

alienyouth9292
03-16-2007, 02:04 PM
While I am no longer a Catholic myself, I was for most of my life. And that statement pretty much offended 1/6 of the world's population. Including me.

Well done. ::]




sorry about that.....i wasn't really thinking when i posted that message....:-\


i think that the illegals DO need to learn our language, pay taxes and abide by the American laws, or go back to their homes across the border. if they want to be legal citizens, they need to "do America the right way"....

DarkestRose
03-16-2007, 02:56 PM
I think that aliens should learn English, but I also think that Americans should be multi-lingual as well. I think it is sort of laziness on our part to not want to learn how to communicate with any non-English-speaking persons, but we expect everyone else to learn English for us. It seems more like we don't want to be bothered with change.

I do, however, agree that everybody should pay taxes and abide by American laws if they plan on living here.

Tromos
03-16-2007, 03:09 PM
I concur. They should learn English. They should abide by the laws, pay their taxes, and be proud of their new country.

At the same time, if we think we can't learn anything from them, well ... that's why so many countries think Americans are the most arrogant people on Earth.

skynes
03-16-2007, 03:38 PM
Both Timmy and Scotty have pushed this "you adapt to our culture, not us to yours" agenda which I find particularly self-righteous and intolerant. I can understand your frustration when immigrants manipulate the politically correct fears of the government to obtain special rights. I find that equally abhorrent.


My point being the latter half. Right here it's common for them to come in and manipulate the laws and government screaming "human rights!" to get whatever they want at OUR expense. I don't like that. Their aim (generally speaking) is to force us to speak their language and adapt to their way of life, yet they're the ones who want to live.

One minute people get on my case for telling them to ignore the law, the next they proclaim their own indignation for the law.


I have no problem which saying that laws suck. But when told to ignore them because they're not enforced is a bad idea.

Says who?

common sense. If you want a favour, ask, don't demand. I don't see them asking for help, I see them demanding it.

Like we did? Hey, at least the Hispanics aren't committing genocide to move here..........like we did when we moved here.


So? I'm not American, not my problem what your ancestors did.

This is not a law or requirement of any kind. The only reason people believe this is because they dislike or feel annoyed by something. And guess, nothing protects you from disliking something! If this were the case I'd ban the sale of brussel sprouts.


Brussel sprouts should be declared a Bio-hazardous material!

But no, it's not the culture that annoys me, but the foreigners (Arabic's in particular) total rejection of our culture, language and way of life, yet they try and enforce theirs onto other people. It swings both ways, if you want me to understand and accept your way of living, show the same courtesy in return.

This is opposed to freedom entirely. Nothing in the American Constitution says that anyone is required to provide anything to anybody. You are perfectly allowed to be a homeless drunkard if you so choose.


I don't care for American Constitution. Lol. To me personally, if someone enters the country, goes immediately onto benefits, shows no effort whatsoever in getting a job or learning the language then they're being a drain on the country.

"Unofficially" says who?


Every American I've spoken to has English as a main language.

Stop picking and choosing which laws you want enforced.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you suggest earlier that these laws mean nothing because noone enforces them?

DarkestRose
03-16-2007, 03:55 PM
My belief is that Christians should be law-abiding citizens because many laws can be rooted in conscientiousness. One does not speed because it endangers other drivers, and if an accident were caused would deeply wound the other driver, as well as that person's family, friends, etc, should something happen to them. One does not jaywalk because it is discourteous to other drivers. For the most part, laws and loving can go hand-in-hand. I think the only reason we should feel the need to break a law is if the law requires us to do something morally against God's commandments.

skynes
03-17-2007, 04:23 AM
I think that aliens should learn English, but I also think that Americans should be multi-lingual as well. I think it is sort of laziness on our part to not want to learn how to communicate with any non-English-speaking persons, but we expect everyone else to learn English for us. It seems more like we don't want to be bothered with change.


The argument can be seen from both ways. In once sense it is up to the immigrant to adapt to their new country, call it the price of escaping where they were. But on the other hand we should make it easier.

Problem comes when you have such a vast mixed population, what languages do you prioritise over others?

In school I was taught French as compulsory, cause France is the next nearest country to the UK. German and Spainish were optional. I did Latin for three years and could have done Greek at a higher level.

It is good to know at least the basics of another language, but it isn't feasible to learn em all (unless you're gifted in that area).

For the record, I don't speed. I'm one of those overtly cautious 2mph below the limit people. (that and I haven't driven in years, but if I DID still drive, I think I'd be the same now as I was then)

unshakeable15
03-17-2007, 10:16 PM
How many people profess to be Christians, yet go to church/read the Bible/pray when they can find the time?
I don't know how you can divy it up like that. No one can know a man's heart, other than God.
So you can use an argument against me that i can't use against you? i just said "you can't know how many illegals are actually followers of God" and you throw that back at me? What?

ALL that i'm saying is that there is no way for you to know or prove that all 14 million (your number) illegals are practicing Catholics. You don't even know if they are all Catholics. They come from a predominatelly Catholic country; meaning, Catholicism is the largest religion, but it's not the only religion and it's not mandatory. Statistically speaking, it's nearly impossible for all of them to be Catholic.

My original point, and my point here, is that you need to be careful about sweeping generalizations. It weakens your position and makes your entire post lose validity, something i'm sure you don't want.

As for the unofficial language of the United States of America, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States) states English is the unofficial language (yes, it's updated by everyday schmucks like you and me, but it's been shown to be as accurate or more accurate than printed encyclopedias)). As well, WhiteHouse.gov (www.whitehouse.gove) is in English (with an option to change over "En Español"). And, i haven't been, but i hear the Senate and the House both conduct business in English. i'm thinking that would make it the unofficial language of the country (the only thing stopping it from being official would be a Congressional Act, or something).

DarkestRose
03-17-2007, 10:22 PM
The argument can be seen from both ways. In once sense it is up to the immigrant to adapt to their new country, call it the price of escaping where they were. But on the other hand we should make it easier.

Problem comes when you have such a vast mixed population, what languages do you prioritise over others?

In school I was taught French as compulsory, cause France is the next nearest country to the UK. German and Spainish were optional. I did Latin for three years and could have done Greek at a higher level.

It is good to know at least the basics of another language, but it isn't feasible to learn em all (unless you're gifted in that area).

For the record, I don't speed. I'm one of those overtly cautious 2mph below the limit people. (that and I haven't driven in years, but if I DID still drive, I think I'd be the same now as I was then)

I agree that it is unreasonable to try to learn every langauge in the world, if not impossible. I suppose I was thinking more along the lines of everybody making an attempt to know the basics of, say, Spanish just because there are a lot of immigrants in the US and it helps to be able to communicate with them. Most of my thinking came from how, in other countries, a lot of people are multi-lingual but in America, we have a tendency to want everybody to speak English for us.

somasoul
03-18-2007, 07:40 AM
ALL that i'm saying is that there is no way for you to know or prove that all 14 million (your number) illegals are practicing Catholics. You don't even know if they are all Catholics. They come from a predominatelly Catholic country; meaning, Catholicism is the largest religion, but it's not the only religion and it's not mandatory. Statistically speaking, it's nearly impossible for all of them to be Catholic.

Maybe you should actually read my posts. Earlier I provided statics on Hispanic members of the USA Catholic Church.

Not my fault you missed it.

Laerasyn
03-18-2007, 04:47 PM
I think the point being made there is that church membership does not necesarilly equate to true practicing Christianity, and that just because a person is of Hispanic origin doesn't necesarilly mean that they are illegal immigrants- unless that's what you meant and you just said "hispanic origin." Thus, that particualr statistic doesnt really add to your arguement.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

somasoul
03-19-2007, 01:08 PM
I think the point being made there is that church membership does not necesarilly equate to true practicing Christianity, and that just because a person is of Hispanic origin doesn't necesarilly mean that they are illegal immigrants- unless that's what you meant and you just said "hispanic origin." Thus, that particualr statistic doesnt really add to your arguement.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Church membership doesn't mean equality, you're right. But I think it's safe to say that most people who attend church are "saved" but whatever lowly standards most Christians use.

The info I posted said this:

62 million caltholics.
39% are hispanics
=24180000 Hispanic American Catholics
Wikipedia says 12.4% of the United States is Hispanic.
The United States has 281,421,906 living in it.
That's 35177758 Hispanics.

Considering that the Catholic Church has two thirds of that number in their pews I think it's safe to say that a fair percentage of illegal immigrants church. I haven't even taken into account protestant churches yet.

unshakeable15
03-21-2007, 12:03 PM
I was struck with the amount of illegal immigrants coming into our country. Most of these immigrants have a past with the Catholic Church, and many more with evangelical churches. It seems they might make a strong ally, considering that there is an estimated 14,000,000 ILLEGALS currently here, not even counting legals.
This is from your original post. If, in later posts, you amended this data with that you stated above, i apologize, i failed to see it.

However, with this data here (the data i've been using for the discussion this entire time), you don't say anything about a Catholic Church estimate, only Catholic Church background tacked onto illegal immigrant data which was what i took issue with.

Again, if i overlooked some data in later posts, my apologies.

DarkestRose
03-21-2007, 12:03 PM
Before we get too off track, is the point supposed to be that if we're nice to illegals, they'll like us and then we'll change America? Because that's as much as I'm getting here.

Tromos
03-21-2007, 12:17 PM
Before we get too off track, is the point supposed to be that if we're nice to illegals, they'll like us and then we'll change America? Because that's as much as I'm getting here.

I think the point was, more specifically, that if American Christians embraced illegal Hispanics, the political plight of American Christians would be strengthened.

DarkestRose
03-21-2007, 12:21 PM
I think the point was, more specifically, that if American Christians embraced illegal Hispanics, the political plight of American Christians would be strengthened.

Okay. That sort of makes sense. But doesn't it sound like being nice for more political points instead of just for the sake of it? Also, some people in American politics feel that by doing this, they would be supporting illegal activity, which would mean asking them to live incongruently with their values.

Tromos
03-21-2007, 12:57 PM
Okay. That sort of makes sense. But doesn't it sound like being nice for more political points instead of just for the sake of it? Also, some people in American politics feel that by doing this, they would be supporting illegal activity, which would mean asking them to live incongruently with their values.

Admittedly, I probably over-simplified Tim's main point. I don't think he was arguing that we embrace them simply for political expediency. And whose values were you talking about? The Americans or the illegals?

DarkestRose
03-21-2007, 12:59 PM
I was meaning the American's. For instance, it didn't make sense to me that the Right would adopt illegals when for many public Conservatives who have complained about illegal immigration since I can remember, it would feel like them not being congruent with the values they set forth.

Quadripedman
03-26-2007, 06:36 PM
i personally think that we should just live with them. theyre a fact of life now a days. like , hiv/aids and drunk driving. it happens. we just have to make the best of a bad situtation. for me that would be just trying to get them to know Christ, if they didnt already.

and what the heck do you mean by:

the religious right fight against the growing threat of a democratic takeover in American politics.

that.

i am offinded. i am defenately Christian and im about as democratic as you can be. seriously, shouldnt we be more worried about the (what i feel was an) INVASION of iraq and all the people and AMERICAN SOLDIERS that have died there? make the illegals pay our taxes and obey our laws or ship 'em out. thats what i say. but *I* would still preach to them. i dont care who they are. i just feel that the soldiers should come home. we cant do anything. there wont be any hope of stability until Christ comes back. i am totally open to discussion about this.

DarkestRose
03-26-2007, 09:48 PM
I'm not quite sure about accepting HIV/AIDS as a fact of life. Or drunk driving. Or anything like that either. I wouldn't even accept illegal immigration under the argument of "Well, you can't stop it, so why bother?" because that's a lame argument of just-give-up.It seems to be settling for apathy. I do believe that there will always be pain and suffering in the world because of sin, but I think that we need to do as much as possible to make things better on earth.

somasoul
03-27-2007, 05:10 AM
My point when I started this thread was simply: If we can bring illegals to the Christian Right we will have more political "firepower".

Not that I care about the Christian Right's "Firepower". I'M A FRICKIN' ANARCHIST FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD!!! But it seems that a lot of Christian folk are gravely concerned about the state of the country and the liberal conspiracy to ruin religion, specifically Christianity. So I thought, since Christians seem really concerned about politics it would make sense to bring more people to the table to help them win their fight against the vast left wing agenda or something.

But, this is of course countered to their belief that illegals are, well...........illegal; which most conservatives can't handle. And the fact that they just seem to dislike anything that doesn't jump on the "red, white and blue bandwagon" or "rally round the flagpole".

Maybe if the Mexicans spoke English and chanted "support the troops" in their sleep then the conservatives might see the use in caring about these people as Christians. As it is, more of them seem concerned about man's law then God's law which is:

"Love God; Love people". Odd, maybe the right wingers read it differently: "Love God; Love Government". I'll have to check the various translations at the local Christian bookstore.

DarkestRose
03-27-2007, 09:45 AM
I thought the Right wanted less government.

But as far that their stance on illegal immigration goes, I would want to understand their thoughts on border control and illegal immigration (why they think the way they do) before saying anything about it. Because I'm sure they don't feel the way they do simply because they don't care about the immigrants. I would think they'd have some sort of ethical standard they feel is being infringed upon (or something like that).

unshakeable15
03-27-2007, 12:01 PM
And, technically, the government is the people. We are a democracy (not really, but it's what all the politicians throw around as the word describing the reality of our government); a democracy is a government ruled by the people, made up of the people, working for the people.

Quadripedman
03-27-2007, 07:34 PM
And, technically, the government is the people. We are a democracy (not really, but it's what all the politicians throw around as the word describing the reality of our government); a democracy is a government ruled by the people, made up of the people, working for the people.

mmmmm, you mean a government made up of the people rich enough to campeign (im talkin about high up govenrment, like white-house level pos.), yes, made up of the people, and mostly working for the people, but sometimes working for theirselves. im simply pointing out that i feel that the govenment today isnt what the founding fathers wanted/tried to create.:(

unshakeable15
03-29-2007, 09:36 AM
Again, it's the ideal that's not fully realized, but you're thinking of government in the large sense. There's also the local and state levels. The larger the level of government, the more money it takes to campaign. But to take on a position of local government (depending upon the size of your town), is a very doable task for many Americans.

And, not to mention, voting (while not giving direct representation in national elections) gives you a voice to say what you think is good and what you think is bad.

National, presidential elections aren't the only elections in town.

Quadripedman
03-29-2007, 05:32 PM
actually, if you look at my post, i wasnt talking about local elections, i was talking about prez, vp, ect. ;)

unshakeable15
04-01-2007, 02:53 PM
My point still stands. Government isn't just the high up positions. It's every position from the ground up. Didn't Christ teach you anything? ;) Isn't it the lowest that are the highest?

somasoul
04-01-2007, 08:38 PM
My point still stands. Government isn't just the high up positions. It's every position from the ground up. Didn't Christ teach you anything? ;) Isn't it the lowest that are the highest?

That's Christ's Kingdom, my friend. Here, in the world, whoever has the most guns is generally in charge.

Grunge=Fun
04-04-2007, 09:51 AM
Actually, yes.

Here's your choice: sneak illegally into America or die in Mexico

At this point, the legality of it becomes moot.

You say that so vague like dying in Mexico is so bad. The reason they come up here isnt because they are afraid of dying its because they know there are higher paying jobs and they know they can get up here and get jobs illegally! Illegal immigrants are so wired into our economy that if we got rid of them all in the snap of my fingers then our economy would collapse. It's amazing how much they are intertwined in the whole shebang.

And to the main point of this whole topic I dont think we should ally with illegal immigrants just cause they profess they are catholic. No offense to any catholics out there but the catholic church has some weird views :o dealing with how they pray to MAry and what not. They shouldnt be here because they are getting away from taxes!

Tromos
04-04-2007, 02:50 PM
No offense to any catholics out there but the catholic church has some weird views :o dealing with how they pray to MAry and what not.

Your opinion, of course. And seeing as there are twice as many Catholics in the world as the rest of Christianity combined, the majority opinion would seem to be that yours are the weird views.

And while their prayers to Mary may seem bizarre to you, I would challenge you to find anything Scripturally that condemns seeking intercessory assistance from those already in heaven.