the rocker
03-19-2007, 04:08 PM
Lately this question has been bothering me - After becoming a Christian, is there a way to lose the contact with God you had before, and the gift of heaven? Is there a way to harden your heart to the point where you lose your salvation? Until recently the answer to the unasked question has been no, in the back of my mind. Now I'm wondering.
This wasn't exactly one of the Sunday School lessons back in 3rd grade, and I don't think I've heard an answer from my church since then. Maybe that's because the Bible is unclear about it, or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places. Either way, this is something I need to get clear in my mind.
I've got a friend I'm concerned about.

The Lamma
03-19-2007, 04:20 PM
I believe it is possible to do so. My reason of thinking that? If you truly became a Christian and it was impossible to loose salvation, you might turn back to evil and start killing people for all I know. Something to think about. Other than that, I'd say search a lot in the Bible, pray, and don't just ask it here.

kittygirl
03-19-2007, 05:03 PM
Faith...is simply trust in God. If you mean outward things, like reading your bible, and going to church, that doesn't mean you're close with God.

God desires intimacy, and it is not a formula, in fact, it's easier than you think. Faith is not a formula, repeat.

The Lamma
03-19-2007, 06:21 PM
But to have faith you must loose doubts, am I correct? I find that hard.

as~i~lay~dying
03-19-2007, 08:32 PM
That is such a difficult question that I struggle with so much- mainly because I am so out of touch with God momentarily.

So maybe this is true or maybe its just me pacifying myslef but I don't believe you can lose your salvation, BUT if you are truly saved God will pull you back one way or another- I myself have hardened myself in so many areas- but I can kinda sense God trying to pull me back at times. And, if you have experienced his unconditional love and a relationship with Him, eventually you will desire that again, and bring yourslef back. I think a lot of people who leave God, for good, were never saved. They most likely convinced themselves they were and others, but maybe it was just a feeling and not so much a relationship?

skynes
03-19-2007, 11:41 PM
Lately this question has been bothering me - After becoming a Christian, is there a way to lose the contact with God you had before, and the gift of heaven? Is there a way to harden your heart to the point where you lose your salvation? Until recently the answer to the unasked question has been no, in the back of my mind. Now I'm wondering.
This wasn't exactly one of the Sunday School lessons back in 3rd grade, and I don't think I've heard an answer from my church since then. Maybe that's because the Bible is unclear about it, or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places. Either way, this is something I need to get clear in my mind.
I've got a friend I'm concerned about.

This is a rather difficult question. I know what 'I' think on it, and I know what others think. The problem comes cause those things aren't the same. If you look back a couple of pages you'll see a thread on losing salvation already. But here's a few things I've thought of recently.


Salvation through works can be compared to a debit card. You work and work and work and when you've saved enough you debit that amount from your account and get the item you wanted.

Salvation by grace, but you can lose it can be compared to a credit card. The salvation is free, initially. But you need to keep doing all the good works and all the good motions otherwise you won't meet the payments and its taken away from you.

What's the difference?

The Bible says salvation is a free gift. If nothing we could ever do could earn salvation, in reverse, why should anything we do cost us it?

you truly became a Christian and it was impossible to loose salvation, you might turn back to evil and start killing people for all I know.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

the rocker
03-20-2007, 11:46 AM
The Bible says salvation is a free gift. If nothing we could ever do could earn salvation, in reverse, why should anything we do cost us it?That makes sense. But at the same time, God wants a personal relationship with us. Without one, is the serial killer who gave his life to God as a kid still saved? I guess this is something that could go back and forth forever.

somasoul
03-20-2007, 11:47 AM
God wants a personal relationship with us.

He does?

DarkestRose
03-20-2007, 02:46 PM
I believe it is possible to do so. My reason of thinking that? If you truly became a Christian and it was impossible to loose salvation, you might turn back to evil and start killing people for all I know. Something to think about. Other than that, I'd say search a lot in the Bible, pray, and don't just ask it here.

The problem I have with that argument is that, I, for instance, know that I could get angry and cuss out my friends if I was mad enough because God would forgive me. But I don't because I know that it isn't loving, it could hurt people and do damage to the relationship. But I don't refuse to do it out of fear that God will cancel my salvation.

To me, that doesn't make sense that we have to "earn our keep" in God's grace. If we weren't good enough to save ourself through works in the first place, what makes us better for it now? The Fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, and if we truly are in Christ, we should be becoming sancitified from one degree of glory to the next. We won't be becoming serial killers. We'll be becoming sanctified.

the rocker
03-20-2007, 04:20 PM
He does?He doesn't? Of course he does. What makes you say that?

The Lamma
03-20-2007, 04:25 PM
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

But these verses don't state that we CAN'T loose our salvation. I forget who said that this is pratically an everlasting argument, and I agree. I guess all we can do to know is to keep in tune with God.

V-Ball Queen 32
03-20-2007, 04:50 PM
This is really deep, if you know what I mean. I think maybe we all are full of crap and we know it, but if we don't let it consume us and instead are seeking after a more intimate realtionship with God; we're saved (figuratively and literally).

This is tricky. Basically, if you love and live for God (and have faith in Him!) then you're going to Heaven and all that good stuff. On the flip side, if you're the stereotype christian (self-righteous, controlling, etc.) or just plain deny God (this doesn't necessarily mean doubting something), then you probably are going down.

I'm not posotive about this . . .I'm merely trying to answer my own question in text . . .but hopefully it helped.

The Lamma
03-20-2007, 05:04 PM
Oh, and I just want to throw in this: Belief is one thing that WON'T save you. Demons believe in God. That was something that just popped up in my head.

DarkestRose
03-20-2007, 08:31 PM
But John 6:37-40 says: All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

And in John 10:27-30 Jesus says: My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Romans 8:1 says that there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus

Romans 8:38-39: For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1: 4-8 says, I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way—in all your speaking and in all your knowledge— because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:5 says that we are “shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.”

And I feel that, on a personal level, there are so many people—Christians included—who feel that they’ve messed up so badly that God can’t or won’t forgive them. People need to hear that when Jesus died for them, He died for their sins once and for all. They need to hear that there is never going to be a time when God will angrily sigh and state that He never would have saved them if He knew they’d be that bad. I believe that when God saves us, knowing all of our past sins and all that we will commit in the future. Jesus died for the very reason that we need grace. And I wonder why we think He would leave us for needing what He died to give us.

skynes
03-21-2007, 02:46 AM
Without one, is the serial killer who gave his life to God as a kid still saved? I guess this is something that could go back and forth forever.

It is infinite. I've been on both sides of the fence of this. I started considering that salvation can't be lost when I heavily studied into Grace, I also looked at Rev 3 and Heb 6 (the big lose salvation passages) and found them saying something different to what is popularly said.

As for the first point and also for:
But these verses don't state that we CAN'T loose our salvation.

Show me scripture that says one you've become a new creation you can become an old one again.

The idea is this:

You cannot encounter a 70mph truck and come away unchanged. If anything police will be scraping you off the road all day.

You cannot encounter the living God and come away unchanged.

Tyler, let me ask you this:

when you sin, do you shrug and move on? Or does it bother you and you feel the need to do something about it?

lamb_servant72
03-21-2007, 05:35 AM
Life in the Son by Robert Shank contains a very thorough list of scriptures used on both sides of the "arguement".

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610912

DarkestRose
03-21-2007, 06:44 AM
I started considering that salvation can't be lost when I heavily studied into Grace, I also looked at Rev 3 and Heb 6 (the big lose salvation passages) and found them saying something different to what is popularly said.

Of late, that's the way it has been for me as well.

DarkestRose
03-21-2007, 06:48 AM
On a new note, I wonder why we keep going back to the 'serial killer' as our main subject. Moses killed a man. King David has a man set to the front line of battle to be killed in order to cover up how he'd slept with this man's wife and impregnanted her. And what about abortion? I know that it is horrible, but is it now a modern-day unforgivable sin?

The Lamma
03-21-2007, 12:08 PM
DarkestRose, those verses say no one ELSE can take us away, but no mention of ourselves. But I'm kinda at a dead end there. Its a discussion where no one will get the answer they want, if they can indeed find an answer. And the reason people keep on talking about serial killers is because of what I mentioned in my first post in this thread. Its right near the beggining. And Skynes, if you encounter the Lord, yes, you will no doubt believe in Him!! But as I mentioned before, even demons believe in Him. They just don't choose to trust in him. They did at one point, but then they went and followed Lucifer. Can't we do the same? Aren't we, after all, born with a free will?

DarkestRose
03-21-2007, 12:16 PM
I bring up the murder point because your point came off to me as a reasoning that we don't sin because of fear that we would lose salvation. To me, this would mean that we would have to believe at a certain point, God would stop forgiving us because we were too bad. Does this mean that Jesus blood stopped working for us? At what point does a sin mean that you're not saved anymore? When you steal something? Kill someone? Lie?

Also, I wonder if the angels and demons argument is valid. Jesus didn't die for them. I don't know if there is salvation for them once they turned away. Now if we just cerebrally acknolwedge faith but do nothing with it, we haven't experienced God. But, in Jesus Christ, we are saved by grace through faith. To say that faith is not enough is to claim that we need works that add to what Christ did.

Also, I think Skynes point was that, if you have truly experienced God, believed, repented and come to Jesus Christ, God would be at work sanctifying you, changing your heart and there should be some degree of change.

And what about Hebrews 13:5 “Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.” He doesn't say that He will never leave us, unless we sin too much and don't do enough good works to earn our salvation. He says He'll never leave.

unshakeable15
03-21-2007, 12:20 PM
Lamma (sorry, i haven't learned your name yet), you keep talking about belief. i have belief, but i also have faith. The Demons believe there is one God (James 2.19), but they don't place their belief in that God. They don't have faith in the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. They just believe he exists and are set in opposition to him.

Faith and belief are used synonoumously when they should not be. Faith is allegiance to duty or a person, as well as unflinching trust, complete trust. When you believe something you hold it as true or genuine. There is cross-over, but faith is the stronger of the two.

Book for good reading on faith: Future Grace by John Piper. Heavy reading, but good stuff.

The Lamma
03-21-2007, 12:31 PM
My point about the killing is that if you start doing it on purpose, does that mean you're still saved? And with the angel/demon thing, my point is kinda that as far as we know, we have more free will than them. If they were in the presence of God, but left, and we have more free will, why couldn't we do the same? Changing of heart...Yes, that does happen, but who says it can't change again? And to counter myself, nothing says it CAN, so its an unsurity. God will never leave us. I strongly believe that, but that doesn't mean he will force us.

Unshakeable, what kind of book is Future Grace? And just call me Lamma for now. I never did like posting my name online, so if you want something I'll think about it.

Sorry if I've been sounding negative, guys. I'm just having some struggles with stuff right now, and often come across as cross online when I dont mean to.

skynes
03-21-2007, 12:35 PM
But as I mentioned before, even demons believe in Him. They just don't choose to trust in him. They did at one point, but then they went and followed Lucifer. Can't we do the same? Aren't we, after all, born with a free will?

Using demons as an example isn't very good because scripture is hazy on the details of an angels nature.

Let me ask you this. Where in scripture is a clear-cut set of laws laid out for a Christian to follow or they're not saved? Where is the line? Where is the limit? Is it 80% perfection? 70%? Where?

I ask this because in all of the Bible, God's commands are clear. No guessing how much is enough, the law is clear on right and wrong.

But to suggest that salvation can be lost means there must be a point at which you lose it. Where is that point?

Also, I think Skynes point was that, if you have truly experienced God, believed, repented and come to Jesus Christ, God would be at work sanctifying you, changing your heart and there should be some degree of change.


That was what I meant.

Phil 1:6 "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; "

----

Lamma please use scripture to support your point. I don't want to sound mean but I'm not going to continue discussing this if you have nothing solid to base your thoughts on.



My point about the killing is that if you start doing it on purpose, does that mean you're still saved?

Yes, otherwise Moses and David both lost their salvation when they killed someone.



Scripture says our hearts are changed by God. Nothing in scripture says the opposite is possible.


[quote]I never did like posting my name online,

smart thing to do.

Sorry if I've been sounding negative, guys. I'm just having some struggles with stuff right now, and often come across as cross online when I dont mean to.


Don't worry, I'm as foul tempered as they come so I know the feeling.

unshakeable15
03-21-2007, 12:52 PM
Unshakeable, what kind of book is Future Grace? And just call me Lamma for now. I never did like posting my name online, so if you want something I'll think about it.
It's a theological book. Piper gets into what it means to have faith in God through future grace (that is, relying not upon the work he did on the cross, but upon what he will continue to do in your life in the future).

And that's cool. :) i understand. Just let me be the first to know if you let out your name, so i don't feel out of the loop. ;)

The Lamma
03-21-2007, 01:15 PM
Skynes, you have made the most valid point so far: Use scripture to back it up. When I get discussing, I can get carried away. I admit I can't think of anywhere or anything in scripture that does support my argument. I just have a habbit of telling 'what ifs', I guess. I drop my case for the time being. But one you should always remember is that no one ever has, does, or will know a smidge about the Lord. if we did, the life we live would be waaaaaaay different. And I dont claim to know anything more than you guys. Oh, and its not total resignation. I'll be watching this thread. :p

Unshakeable, I'll make sure you know first if I dont release my name at all. :)

DarkestRose
03-21-2007, 01:17 PM
Well, it's not true that we don't know anything about God. God has told us about Himself through His Word. We don't know everything, but we do know something.

The Lamma
03-21-2007, 01:19 PM
What I meant is that compared to what there is to know, its not very much. I was a big exaggerating when I said we dont even know a smidge.

the rocker
03-21-2007, 01:31 PM
Whoa, thanks a lot for all those verses. Those are really good. It always amazes me how no matter how much you read, something new always manages to appear at just the right time.

Skynes, you asked me last page how I feel when I sin. I guess I asked about this in the first place because of someone I know more than myself, though I've been watching myself after this, too. About four, I think, years ago my friend, who lives in a non-Christian and not the healthiest home, asked God in his life. For a while I didn't see him much, until now. I've been trying to get him to come to my youth group, but he's been avoiding it. I'll have to keep working on it, and praying. That's probably the best thing I can do.

And thanks for both sides of the issue. Just one side and I wouldn't have anything to debate with myself about.

The Lamma
03-21-2007, 01:33 PM
You're welcome. :) (considering I was mostly the other side :P )

skynes
03-21-2007, 02:32 PM
I just have a habbit of telling 'what ifs'

Asking questions is good. Considering alternatvies is good. Don't ever stop asking questions.

Skynes, you asked me last page how I feel when I sin. I guess I asked about this in the first place because of someone I know more than myself, though I've been watching myself after this, too. About four, I think, years ago my friend, who lives in a non-Christian and not the healthiest home, asked God in his life. For a while I didn't see him much, until now. I've been trying to get him to come to my youth group, but he's been avoiding it. I'll have to keep working on it, and praying. That's probably the best thing I can do.

My mistake, got a bit caught up in the thread, lol.

Keep praying and keep inviting. Prayer is the most powerful thing you can ever do.

dawn of light
03-21-2007, 02:58 PM
But to suggest that salvation can be lost means there must be a point at which you lose it. Where is that point?
I don't think salvation can be "lost". But I definitely think it can be "given up". We know that salvation isn't dependant on how much a person sins, because then, as Skynes said, there would have to be a certain point at which one would lose their salvation. I think someone is no longer saved when they decide in their heart and mind that they will no longer follow Christ.

The Lamma
03-21-2007, 03:01 PM
Ah, yes. Finally someone who has managed to state what I've kinda been thinking, lol. You can accept it, but shouldn't it be possible to decline. (refrase of dawn's post:P)

DarkestRose
03-21-2007, 04:33 PM
But, if someone was honestly living for Jesus, what would they give Him up for? If you really believe, I don't think you would easily backtrack from that.

skynes
03-22-2007, 02:56 AM
I don't think salvation can be "lost". But I definitely think it can be "given up". We know that salvation isn't dependant on how much a person sins, because then, as Skynes said, there would have to be a certain point at which one would lose their salvation. I think someone is no longer saved when they decide in their heart and mind that they will no longer follow Christ.

Then I ask this:

Take demonic opression into account.
Take the anger at God for a relative dying of cancer into account.
Take their lack of reading and praying into account.

Now what?

Becomes much more complicated huh?


I found this last night

1 Cor 6

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

So if we are not our own and we belong to God. Is it not reasonable to suggest that God is perfectly within his authority to turn DOWN your request to give up salvation?

I think someone is no longer saved when they decide in their heart and mind that they will no longer follow Christ.

Prodigal Son. Was the son any less of a son because he went off and lived a life of sin? He decided in his heart and mind not to live there anymore, to go and enjoy the sins of life. Was he no longer a son in that time? Then became a son again when he returned?

NightCrawler
03-22-2007, 07:42 AM
If anyone is saved by God's grace, he will have his inheritance no matter what. Remember, if doing something wrong could remove you from salvation, then what is the point? We are determined to sin. We are imperfect, and will be until the resurrection.

Quick verses:
1 Corinthians 1:
21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

skynes
03-22-2007, 08:06 AM
For everyones info. The 'seal' here is likened to a Kings Seal. A blob of wax put on a letter or document and the King imprinted his ring into it. This was known as the King's Seal.

It meant the contents of this document are ABSOLUTE. It is the King's Decree and cannot be overruled by anyone but the King himself.

The Lamma
03-22-2007, 05:44 PM
Some very good points guy, but I want to throw something new out there. Who here knows of the unforgivable sin? I forget what it is, and where found in the Bible, but its mentioned for sure.

the rocker
03-22-2007, 06:56 PM
The unforgiveable sin...correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was calling Jesus' works and miracles of Satan. Which would mean, since he isn't here in physical form, the sin can no longer be committed.

The Lamma
03-22-2007, 07:00 PM
I don't get quite what you mean... Anyone know the passage from whence it came from?

theelectric3
03-22-2007, 08:20 PM
Lately this question has been bothering me - After becoming a Christian, is there a way to lose the contact with God you had before, and the gift of heaven? Is there a way to harden your heart to the point where you lose your salvation? Until recently the answer to the unasked question has been no, in the back of my mind. Now I'm wondering.
This wasn't exactly one of the Sunday School lessons back in 3rd grade, and I don't think I've heard an answer from my church since then. Maybe that's because the Bible is unclear about it, or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places. Either way, this is something I need to get clear in my mind.
I've got a friend I'm concerned about.


the Bible speaks of this.

the love of many (Christians) will grow cold.
Matthew 24:12 (in comparrison to 1 John 4:7-8)
in the midst of persecution, some christians will become offended by the Gospel and will turn against it (and against one another).
Matthew 24:10
Jesus told us the condition of our hearts and what to beware of.
Mark 4:13-20

skynes
03-23-2007, 03:30 AM
I don't get quite what you mean... Anyone know the passage from whence it came from?

Middle part of Matt 12.

I think I see where you're going with this and the answer would be No. It's not something a Christian can commit. The warning was directed at the Pharisees (unbelievers), religious people who knew that Jesus fit every criteria for the Messiah yet refused to acknowledge Him and instead called Him Satan.

I think Jesus was warning them that they were getting close to the edge of that line.


-- To knowingly attribute a work of God to Satan, being fully aware that this was from God.


It is possible to call an act of God to be of Satan out of ignorance. This is not unforgiveable, it's just being ignorant.

forceflow17
03-23-2007, 03:35 AM
I don't think salvation can be "lost". But I definitely think it can be "given up". We know that salvation isn't dependant on how much a person sins, because then, as Skynes said, there would have to be a certain point at which one would lose their salvation. I think someone is no longer saved when they decide in their heart and mind that they will no longer follow Christ.


not sure where this is located, but i'm pretty sure that somewhere Paul said "if they go out from us then they were never of us"

forceflow17
03-23-2007, 03:38 AM
here's another thought,would a perfect God, that wants our love and praise, have a plan for salvation, that cost his son his life, that could be screwed up by man? if we could screw it up, i'm pretty sure just about everyone of us would.

skynes
03-23-2007, 03:39 AM
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. "

forceflow17
03-23-2007, 03:40 AM
thanks, and that's why i couldn't find it, i was checking Paul's letters

The Lamma
03-23-2007, 08:39 AM
Thanks Skynes. I was just curious, and knew absolutely nothing about the 'unforgivable sin.' I'll make sure to check that passage.

m_money618
03-23-2007, 10:28 PM
I think like if you truely became a Christian then you can't loose your salvation. But I do believe if you become a Christian and then you live your life as if you never did, then you won't have as many rewards in Heaven. Like if you could take the best person in the world that had accepted Jesus, and then the worst person that accepted Christ, and see them in Heaven, their rewards wouldn't be equal, because the bad person was bad, therefore wouldn't get good stuff, but he's still with God because he accepted the free gift. that's just me.

skynes
03-24-2007, 03:42 AM
that's just me.

Forgive me if I grabbed the wrong end of the stick for this might be just a grammatical issue, but this is the problem with your thoughts. Issues regarding salvation shouldn't be what we think or 'just me' they should be firmly grounded in scripture.

As it stands you haven't provided any scripture to support what you said. Going on what is written as opposed to what you may have intended, scripture says a bit differently.

God chooses the worst of the worst to do His work, they end up doing a BETTER work than the good person who accepted Christ.

Which leads down the rabbit hole of what is good and bad? All are sinful in God's sight.

In regards to rewards, scripture says this:

1 Corinthians 3
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Like I said it's possible I misunderstood, if this is the case please tell me.

m_money618
03-24-2007, 09:50 PM
As it stands you haven't provided any scripture to support what you said. Going on what is written as opposed to what you may have intended, scripture says a bit differently.

I know it should all be firmly grounded and i know i should have had some verses, but i didn't have any 'on hand' and i knew it would be a problem. I also know scripture says things diferently, in a different light so to speak, but that belief is what i got out of or remembered from church or where ever. i know there's scriptures supporting it, but i also know there's scriptures that todally oppose it, so where can you draw the line of what you believe? This is my line of belief. I'll get some verses.

skynes
03-25-2007, 04:22 AM
but i also know there's scriptures that todally oppose it, so where can you draw the line of what you believe?

The Bible doesn't contradict itself, there are some things that look like it does, but on further study, they actually don't. What you need to do is study it enough and the history surrounding it to know what it's actually saying as opposed to what people tell you it says.

I'll get some verses.

thank you.

The Lamma
03-26-2007, 12:26 PM
I have a verse I thought I'd just throw in here. I dunno what I think of it, lol.

Ephesians 5:5-7 (NIV)

5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

Quadripedman
03-26-2007, 06:45 PM
Faith...is simply trust in God. If you mean outward things, like reading your bible, and going to church, that doesn't mean you're close with God.

God desires intimacy, and it is not a formula, in fact, it's easier than you think. Faith is not a formula, repeat.

id have to say it disires an intimancy (weee for crappy spelling) with the Lord. The Bible says it best (something like this cause i cant find the exact verse.) "If you believe in your heart that Jesus died on the cross for you, and you can say with you mouth "Jesus is Lord" you will be saved." its in Romans, but i cant find it at the moment...

skynes
03-26-2007, 10:37 PM
I have a verse I thought I'd just throw in here. I dunno what I think of it, lol.

Ephesians 5:5-7 (NIV)

5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

Something similar in another book

1 corinthians 6

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


That lovely last verse there is saying that this used to be who they are, but they're not anymore because they've been Justified in Christ. Paul had already told them off for being revilers and extortioners and adulterers, yet now says they're not anymore. So although they do these things, they're still justified in Christ.

The Lamma
03-27-2007, 02:37 PM
Oh, ok. That last verse makes sense. Thanks. :)

NightCrawler
03-30-2007, 06:12 AM
Anyone care to discuss this? (I know it was done on the other sub-forum, but here would be good too because many take this passage to mean various things regarding Once-Saved-Always-Saved debate)

Hebrews 6:
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

skynes
03-30-2007, 07:46 AM
Hebrews 6 (http://www.panheads.org/boards/showthread.php?t=4672)

Already got a thread and I've got my thoughts there on its relation to salvation.

Grunge=Fun
04-04-2007, 10:58 AM
So basically if a mans heart is not of God then thats where he will be going to hell. Everyone has a chance to be saved its just where they are at with God. Everyone sins (duh) but not everyone repents for sinning.

The Lamma
04-04-2007, 08:12 PM
If you are not for God, you're against him...

Voice of Truth
04-14-2007, 05:22 AM
Lately this question has been bothering me - After becoming a Christian, is there a way to lose the contact with God you had before, and the gift of heaven? Is there a way to harden your heart to the point where you lose your salvation? Until recently the answer to the unasked question has been no, in the back of my mind. Now I'm wondering.
This wasn't exactly one of the Sunday School lessons back in 3rd grade, and I don't think I've heard an answer from my church since then. Maybe that's because the Bible is unclear about it, or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places. Either way, this is something I need to get clear in my mind.
I've got a friend I'm concerned about.

I do not believe you lose your faith. I believe that our unbelief and doubt get in the way of our faith. Each one of us has been given a measure of faith. Pray that your faith is never smaller than your doubt or unbelief.


I also remember when I was first saved and gave my heart to the Lord. I was so on fire for him. We go through ups and downs in our walk with Him, as that famous poem "Footprints", it is in those valleys of life when our faith was small, and we seed seperated from God, that his grace carries us.

The only way to draw closer and get that "feeling of closeness" is to be in constant prayer, meditation, and worship.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. We are the part of the equation that changes. If we are not close to God, who moved? NO matter how far away I have ever been from God, a repentant heart and asking for forgiveness immediately closes the gap. Not my words or deeds, but his Grace that I can be forgiven.

Isn't God Great?

The Lamma
04-16-2007, 12:40 PM
Doubt and unbelief is the opposite of faith, isn't it? You can't doubt and have faith at the same time. But this verse, Mark 1:15, does say that you just have to repent and believe.

'"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"'

Ephesians 4:30 says we were sealed away...

'And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption'

Just some verses for thought.

NightCrawler
04-17-2007, 05:59 AM
Doubt and unbelief is the opposite of faith, isn't it? You can't doubt and have faith at the same time. But this verse, Mark 1:15, does say that you just have to repent and believe.

'"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"'

Ephesians 4:30 says we were sealed away...

'And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption'

Just some verses for thought.

Really? I think good, honest doubt completes and verifies faith.

And the text in Ephesians does not say anything about losing faith, it only means "you have a relationship with God, so act like it."

skynes
04-17-2007, 08:50 AM
I think good, honest doubt completes and verifies faith.


So do I. When I doubt something, that is a driving force for me to research it and learn the truth.

When I doubt something, I am not calling it a lie, that is unbelief. I am uncertain as to its truthfulness, which makes me want to be certain if it is true or false.

The Lamma
04-17-2007, 11:08 AM
Doesn't Jesus say something about doubts and faith in a line somewhere? I can't quite remember it...If it pops up in Matthew (the book I'm reading right now), I'll be sure to copy it here. I'd also like to point out this verse.
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
If we stop taking up our cross, what happens?

skynes
04-17-2007, 11:44 AM
If we stop taking up our cross, what happens?

Who says we have that choice?

NightCrawler
04-17-2007, 01:14 PM
Jesus only took up His cross once.

bob
04-17-2007, 01:16 PM
Jesus only took up His cross once.

In Luke 9:23 Jesus tells us to pick up our cross daily.

NightCrawler
04-17-2007, 03:35 PM
In Luke 9:23 Jesus tells us to pick up our cross daily.
:: nods ::

I was literal. Jesus was speaking in hyperbole: die in the shame of a criminal.

The Lamma
04-17-2007, 04:10 PM
Here is one case that Jesus wasn't speaking literal physicalness. He was using what happenned to Him (which happened in the future) as a word picture. And Skynes, if we have no choice, why would we be asked to pick it up daily? Why would we not be robots? You're starting to sound like you believe that once a Christian, always a Christian robot. No choices. No nothing. You're forced. But Christ doesn't force anything!

skynes
04-18-2007, 03:22 AM
Skynes, if we have no choice, why would we be asked to pick it up daily? Why would we not be robots? You're starting to sound like you believe that once a Christian, always a Christian robot. No choices. No nothing. You're forced. But Christ doesn't force anything!


LOL, it was an attempt at humour, but noone picked up on it (serves me right for typing it out whilst on the phone.)

On the no choices thing, be aware this is not what I believe it's just one possible view.

The Bible talks of us being slaves to Christ, that Jesus is our Lord and Master. That God bought us and we are not our own. If all those are true, then we wouldn't have a choice on who to serve, cause we have already given our freedom up when we turned to Christ.

-----

But Christ doesn't force anything!

Tell that to those Christ will say "'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41)

But as for the verse. Look at the whole passage.
A very similar thing is said in Matt 10:38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. "

Review some of these:

2 Tim 3:12 "Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."

Romans 5:3-4

3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. "

Galatians 5:24 "And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. "

Is denying ourselves and crucifying our flesh not something we chose when we first turned to Christ? Is the continual death to our flesh and walking in the Spirit not something that happens continually (sanctification)?

Jesus never said anything about what happens when you choose not to take up your cross. Taking up your cross was a death penalty. Not something you can just walk away from. If you had that cross on your back, you were going to die (Unless you're in Monty Python and the Life of Bryan)

But if you fall into sin? You would be like Paul.

Romans 7

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

The Lamma
04-19-2007, 12:29 PM
If you had picked up your cross, wouldn't you be able to drop it? And sorry, I failed to see the comedy...

NightCrawler
04-19-2007, 05:29 PM
The concept of picking up your cross is hate yourself and your desires for the edification of others. You can stop hating yourself and stop edifying, but that does not change whether you are saved or not.

skynes
04-20-2007, 12:58 AM
And sorry, I failed to see the comedy...

ummm yeah... that's what I said. There an echo in here?

If you had picked up your cross, wouldn't you be able to drop it?

I can't shake the thought that Jesus was comparing death to flesh with the death penalty.



If you read the rest of the passage you see that Jesus is making a comparison between a false believer and a true believer.

The false believer is ashamed of the Words of Christ and seeks to save their own life and gain the world. They will not carry their cross.

the true believer will carry their cross daily, they will lose their life for Christ's sake and won't be ashamed of His words (Luke 9:23-26)

The Lamma
04-20-2007, 07:27 AM
ummm yeah... that's what I said. There an echo in here?



I can't shake the thought that Jesus was comparing death to flesh with the death penalty.



If you read the rest of the passage you see that Jesus is making a comparison between a false believer and a true believer.

I looked at what you said again to find the comedy, lol. And I'm just about done the book of Matthew, which is where I found the verse. (although I've seen it a lot before)

And Jonathan, I don't think Jesus exactly says hate yourself...In fact, He says love others as you love yourself. I do know, however, that He said hate your mother, father, and siblings, but I don't think He qute meant hate in the same terms we usually think of.

skynes
04-20-2007, 10:01 AM
I looked at what you said again to find the comedy, lol.

Spend less time reading the post and more reading what I said later. Mainly the "(serves me right for typing it out whilst on the phone.)" bit.

NightCrawler
04-20-2007, 10:22 AM
And Jonathan, I don't think Jesus exactly says hate yourself...
John 12:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

In fact, He says love others as you love yourself. I do know, however, that He said hate your mother, father, and siblings, but I don't think He qute meant hate in the same terms we usually think of.
:: nods ::

I think it is supposed to be meant to convey a comparison -- love God and others such that it looks like you hate your own desires and life.

The Lamma
04-20-2007, 10:42 AM
Yeah, i think that verse is saying that whoever loves his life more than others and God will lose it. Hating oneself is often what depressed suicidals do...

I also found, while reading the 3 Johns, scripture to support your argument, Skynes. Lol.



1 John 1:9
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

1 John 3:5-6
5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:9-10
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 4:15-16
15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:18
18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

3 John 1:11
11Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.

skynes
04-20-2007, 02:14 PM
I also found, while reading the 3 Johns, scripture to support your argument, Skynes. Lol.

I know of the Johns :) I'm glad you read them and this thread came to mind.

The Lamma
04-20-2007, 02:32 PM
Lately I've been reading assigned reading for my AWANA book and I have been taking notes. Thats where most of my references come from, and the others from memory. :P John sure did write a lot about that kind of stuff... Have you read it recently? If not, you should, and you should know that all 3 are nice and short...:P

skynes
04-20-2007, 03:14 PM
Have you read it recently?

Ehhh... month... maybe two now. I've found it very useful for this topic involving salvation and loss thereof.

The Lamma
04-20-2007, 04:16 PM
But we didn't start this a month ago, did we?

the rocker
04-20-2007, 07:16 PM
31 days.

skynes
04-21-2007, 01:35 AM
But we didn't start this a month ago, did we?


Couple of months was when I last seen John. Also, I do research 'outside' of Panheads topics ya know. This is a topic I wanted to know the truth about, so I studied it.

There is another thread on losing salvation elsewhere.

The Lamma
04-21-2007, 09:20 AM
Oooh, so you've done this before? Lol. And has it seriously been 31 (or 32 now) days? Crazy. I don't really research a lot outside of panheads since I have no where else to research for. :P

skynes
04-21-2007, 10:07 AM
Oooh, so you've done this before? Lol.

Studying? Or discussing this? Yes to both, lol. You'll prolly find in the early days of the last 'can you lose salvation' thread I was much more on the other side of the fence, lol.

Crazy. I don't really research a lot outside of panheads since I have no where else to research for.

I research for my own benefit and learnings (not just to put little kiddies to shame despite it being soo much fun, kidding ;) Lol)

The Lamma
04-21-2007, 10:15 AM
I'm not much of one for researching, as you should have noticed. And it is interesting that you were on the other side of the fence...lol. And I'm not a little kiddy. :P

Quadripedman
04-21-2007, 10:42 AM
that is interesting.

i would research just about every topic on ph, but i dont have a good Bible. i mean, its good, but its only new testament, and its more for reading not hard core research.

The Lamma
04-21-2007, 10:45 AM
An awesome website, from which I copy all verses I post from, is biblegateway.com. Its got the whole Bible in literally every translation!!

unshakeable15
04-21-2007, 08:39 PM
Ok, so nice side conversation there, entertaining and everything, but let's please get back to the topic.

skynes
04-22-2007, 12:29 AM
Ok, so nice side conversation there, entertaining and everything, but let's please get back to the topic.

Which is why I took it to PM :P but then you wouldn't know that...

Psalm 51:11-12

11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.

Some say that before King David repented of the murder and adultery, he had lost his salvation. This was a Psalm written, pretty much, as his repentance. But notice verse 12. It doesn't ask to restore salvation, but the JOY of it.