NightCrawler
04-02-2007, 06:47 AM
Okay, so my other thread was vague and didn't get off on the right foot.

When do we get a soul?

The thought of the soul is supposedly immaterial, so surely if I cut off my finger I am not with less of a soul. So, what basis do we have to claim we have a soul? Is it connected, somehow, to cognitive processes (brain states)? Is the soul another substance (as René Descartes claimed)?

If it is directly linked to brain states, would that mean we 'get' a soul when our brain reaches a certain point? If it is not, then what might it be linked to? Many consider conception to be a distinct point of soul-attribution, but others argue against this because only 1/3 of all fertilized eggs actually attach to the uterine wall (2/3 die).

This question is deeply important to theists because of the abortion debate.

[edit]
And if there is any claim that soul does not equal spirit, please declare so.

skynes
04-02-2007, 06:58 AM
soul does not equal spirit. In the Bible soul = body. So yeah cutting off your finger does make you less of a soul. Lol

DarkestRose
04-02-2007, 07:00 AM
I always thought soul was in internal, like spirit but different somehow. How can it be like body when the body is temporary and the soul is immortal?

skynes
04-02-2007, 07:12 AM
I always thought soul was in internal, like spirit but different somehow. How can it be like body when the body is temporary and the soul is immortal?

the words seem to be interchangeable... Which is annoying when you want to get down to the nitty gritty of it.

NightCrawler
04-03-2007, 07:47 AM
soul does not equal spirit. In the Bible soul = body. So yeah cutting off your finger does make you less of a soul. Lol
[NIV]
Matthew 10:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2010:28;&version=31;)
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


Hmmm

The Lamma
04-03-2007, 10:17 AM
I've often thought of soul as spirit...But I do believe that your soul if the real you - not what everyone else sees, but the 'inside' part of you that carries on after this life.

skynes
04-03-2007, 12:49 PM
Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. "

*shrug*

dawn of light
04-03-2007, 01:02 PM
I think I've mentioned before...
I think this is how it is:
We are a tri-une being
Soul: mind, will and emotions
Spirit: communes with God's spirit, feels God's direction and conviction
Body: self explanatory

As for at what point we recieve a soul or spirit or both...I'm not sure.

I used to think it was at the very moment of conception but that doens't really make sense given the fact that most zygotes don't make it to the embryo stage. (fail to get planted in the uterine wall).

But perhaps the fact that most zygotes die is just a consequence of living in a fallen world...

skynes
04-03-2007, 01:07 PM
I used to think it was at the very moment of conception but that doens't really make sense given the fact that most zygotes don't make it to the embryo stage. (fail to get planted in the uterine wall).



You could use a similar argument for babies that die in birth. Since they died in birth, why give them a soul/spirit?

Scripture isn't clear on it I don't think. There is the verse which talks of God knowing us from the womb. So even then the spirit/soul was there, but at what particular time it gets nailed down? Dunno.

dawn of light
04-03-2007, 01:11 PM
Yes, exactly. which leads me to believe that they get a spirit/soul/both at the moment of conception.

Psalms 139 not sure which verse
"I formed you in your mother's womb, I knit your inmost parts" [rachel's paraphrase]

And babies can learn while they are still in their mother's womb, they recognize their mother's voice, can learn to recognize books, etc. So they must have a mind while still in the womb.

The Lamma
04-03-2007, 04:55 PM
My guess is that it would be at the embryo stage or something.

dawn of light
04-05-2007, 10:10 AM
My guess is that it would be at the embryo stage or something.
So, do you believe that abortion is ok, within the first 5-10 days after conception? (this is when the zygote is implanted becoming an embryo.)

lamb_servant72
06-02-2007, 02:48 AM
I think I've mentioned before...
I think this is how it is:
We are a tri-une being
Soul: mind, will and emotions
Spirit: communes with God's spirit, feels God's direction and conviction
Body: self explanatory

As for at what point we recieve a soul or spirit or both...I'm not sure.

I used to think it was at the very moment of conception but that doens't really make sense given the fact that most zygotes don't make it to the embryo stage. (fail to get planted in the uterine wall).

But perhaps the fact that most zygotes die is just a consequence of living in a fallen world...

I also believe we are triune beings...body, soul, spirit. I believe there is a scripture in Thess that mentions all three as seperate...I don't have my Bible with me at the moment, but I'll try to...

1 Thess 5:23
Now may the God of peace sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Thanks online Bible.)

I believe our bodies return to the earth at death and we get a new, eternal body. I believe our souls either go to Heaven or Hell. Our spirits go back to Heaven. (I'll discuss this more with scripture if anyone would like, I'm short on time right now.)

I realize this doesn't answer the original question. I believe we get our souls at conception...for the reasons Rachel mentioned. I'm not sure about the spirit.

Here's another question. Do you think God "recycles" spirits? When a person dies and the spirit returns to God, does God send the spirit out again? I have wondered about this. I wonder if when people talk about "old souls", they actually are referring to "old spirits".

The Lamma
06-03-2007, 06:26 PM
So, do you believe that abortion is ok, within the first 5-10 days after conception? (this is when the zygote is implanted becoming an embryo.)

Good point. I'm a 100% ant-abortionist, so my answer would be no. I do not believe abortion is ok in any instance.

And Lisa, are you saying you believe in Karma or what? I believe that once we die, we go to be with God, who is out of time, which means there is no wait.

lamb_servant72
06-04-2007, 06:39 PM
Wha-huh?!

What part of you goes to God? Your soul, spirit, body?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that the body returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God.

As for the soul...are you saying you don't believe in Hell?

NightCrawler
06-05-2007, 06:14 AM
And Lisa, are you saying you believe in Karma or what? I believe that once we die, we go to be with God, who is out of time, which means there is no wait.
Ehhhhhh....

Karma means "action", and the doctrine associated with it is kinda complicated, but we just have a phrase "what goes around comes around" to simplify the idea.

Regardless, I think you are meaning "reincarnation" or "transmigration of souls."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmigration

The Lamma
06-05-2007, 10:52 AM
Wha-huh?!

What part of you goes to God? Your soul, spirit, body?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that the body returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God.

As for the soul...are you saying you don't believe in Hell?

There has been discussions on the body part, but I get the spirit and soul stuff mixed up BIG TIME, so I can't totally answer that... Hell? Yes, I believe it exists. You probably misinterpreted me. When I said "when we die," I meant 'we' as in the body of Christ. Make sense now?

And Jonathan, Hindus call reincarnation Karma. It might be a little bit more than just reincarnation, but its in there.

NightCrawler
06-05-2007, 11:45 AM
And Jonathan, Hindus call reincarnation Karma. It might be a little bit more than just reincarnation, but its in there.
Did you read my link?

The Lamma
06-06-2007, 05:37 PM
Well, it is strongly connected!! And usually they don't just plain 'ol say 'reincarnation.'

Reeper
06-08-2007, 09:25 AM
Just to look at this from a biological point of view. I tend to believe that soul acquisition happens at conception because when conception occurs, that is when sperm merges with egg, that being that is created is a completely new and completely unique biological being. And as far as not all zygotes implanting I would agree that that is a result of a fallen world.

Only problem I have with what I said above is what occurs in the instance of identical twins. But that is a subject that I need to research more.

Peace

stillaiming
06-10-2007, 01:14 PM
forgive my lack of capitals where some people think they belong

in my opinion .... or according to my revelation....lamb_servant72.... is absolutely correct...

I will try and be brief,,, it will be very hard given the depth of this matter and its resultant confusion and source of division in the body

We ARE triune.... Let US make man in OUR image.....

Father, son and holy spirit= spirit soul and body

In the garden man had perfect relationship with GOD

father son and holy spirit existed in right relationship or righteousness with man (spirit soul and body)


Enter sin/ fall and division

Spirit is perfect.... from god.... it IS the seed of god in all men

sin seperated us as men from our spirit (god seed)

There is no forgiveness of sin except through the shedding of blood

this was our glimpse at the eventual repair God was putting in place

old testament points to the new testament in all aspects

The temple

outer court (body), inner court(soul/mind, will and emotions) and holy of holies (spirit)......

coincidence???? NO

three part god, three part man three parts to the temple

what happened when Jesus died......

The veil was torn that seperated spirit(holy of holies) from soul(inner court)

that is what Jesus death purchased was a reparation of that severed relationship between soul and spirit...

Jesus blood is what purifies us so we can go into the spirit realm just as the preists of the old testament did by the blood of animals... now we as preists call upon the blood of jesus in our lives to enter into our holy of holies (spirit) and access the completeness in God he planned through Jesus.

it is God's desire for us to be whole .... complete

spirit soul and body


Now we have his word...... rhema and logos (spoken and written)

the word(logos) of god is sharper than any two edged sword even to the dividing of bones and marrow and spirit and soul....

we MUST rightly divide God's word to fully understand when he is referring to spirit and when he is referring to soul.....

it is my opinion that God knew this confusion would arise as his word went though translations and generations and he put this scripture in to releive the confusion he knew would evolve over the years.

i will not go on but this foundational truth is the source for 90% of the divisions in the body of christ... more to come on that if you wish [/SIZE][/FONT]

The Lamma
06-11-2007, 09:36 AM
Nice double post on a registered account and as a guest...Lol. That is a very interesting point. I've never thought of the temple in that way.

stillaiming
06-11-2007, 01:41 PM
not even sure how that happened.....

noob disease

(on the temple)

all of the ministries carried out in the temple by the priests in the outer, inner and holy of holies ...parallels the growth of christians and ministries of ... or maintenance.. for lack of a better term...that take place in the outer and inner courts...and the christians spirit soul and body today... remember we are temples

remember when they tied a rope to the high priests leg so if he hadn't properly followed the rituals of purification and left sin unatoned for.... he would die in the presence of God and they would need to drag his body out....

now we have the perfect blood of jesus that has been sprinkled on our mercy seat and we have full access to the holy of holies in our live right now.... and the spirit of god cries out and says how do you come.....we come boldly before the throne of grace

We come by the blood of the lamb....

enter in my son..says the lord... you will have my rest