froggy'sgirl
04-04-2007, 06:48 PM
Recently a very heated argument sprang up between some members of my church. Our AWANA leader is completely convinced that salvation cannot be gained by faith alone, but that works are a requirement also. The belief of the woman arguing with him is that faith is all that's required for salvation, works are part of being a good Christian and walking with God.

What's your thought?

The Lamma
04-04-2007, 07:58 PM
AWANA!!! Sweetness. I'm still in my uniform from tonight, lol. Thats so cool...Anyway. The Bible does state (and you should have memorized it) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." There are many other verses saying the same. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." There are many others. Its simply faith and believing in God that gives us salvation.

skynes
04-05-2007, 02:44 AM
Recently a very heated argument sprang up between some members of my church. Our AWANA leader is completely convinced that salvation cannot be gained by faith alone, but that works are a requirement also. The belief of the woman arguing with him is that faith is all that's required for salvation, works are part of being a good Christian and walking with God.

What's your thought?

It is faith alone which saves us. However works are a by-product of that faith. What I mean is that after you have believed, God will work in your heart and you will naturally do good works. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

If a person claims to know Christ and does NOT do any works of any kind. Based on the book of James you can assume this person doesn't know Christ.


BTW, what's an AWANA?

NightCrawler
04-05-2007, 07:21 AM
BTW, what's an AWANA?
Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed, from 1 Timothy something:something. It's been YEARS, give me credit.

Anyway, AWANA is a program put on usually by Baptist churches for children in elementary school: usually with games, Bible memorization (For it is by grace you are saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast -- Ephesians 2:8-9), storytime, and prizes and such.

Fun stuph. But the leaders are Fascists.

skynes
04-05-2007, 08:31 AM
But the leaders are Fascists.

So they dress in black, tell people what to do and try to conquer the world?

DarkestRose
04-05-2007, 11:32 AM
I was in AWANAS one year. I think it was fifth grade. We mostly just memorized Bible verses and then did this little chapel session. It required a lot of rote memorization, which I am not good at.

forceflow17
04-05-2007, 11:44 AM
i go to the same one as froggy'sgirl, and in my opinion there is to much emphasis on memorisation. anyway, back on track. he was trying to state that you need works before anyhting else to be saved, he had God given faith and grace way down on his list

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves,it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast

also, i would recomend that he read Galatians 3 in it's entirety.

The Lamma
04-05-2007, 12:55 PM
AWANA, as nighcrawler said, is Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed, from 2 Timothy 2:15. I've been going since kindergarten (or whatever it is spelled) and am now a leader, and we are NOT fascists, whatever it is. I always loved it, the kids I've worked with love it, and the couple who usually don't like it are teens who aren't into that kind of stuff. Its just not their style. A few others like ^ said, aren't the best memorizers, but thats ok. Anyway, haven't we gotten a bit side-tracked....

DarkestRose
04-05-2007, 02:56 PM
How can you say they're not facists without knowing what facism is? Just out of curiosity. This doesn't mean I agree with Jonathan's statement. I just wonder how you back yours up.

And I am decent with memorization, just not with the rote method. I need context to put it in.

skynes
04-05-2007, 03:04 PM
and we are NOT fascists, whatever it is.
How can you say they're not facists without knowing what facism is?

*sniff* is that singed Lamma hair? Yup it is. Lamma got burned.

Fascist = Nazi

The Lamma
04-05-2007, 04:53 PM
So they dress in black, tell people what to do and try to conquer the world?


THAT (the quote) was enough to tell me all I needed to know about the definition in this case. We are NOT people trying to 'take over the world', 'tell people what to do', ect. Unless you call Christianity that?

DarkestRose
04-05-2007, 05:10 PM
I guess I can see that. I wasn't really meaning to "burn" you or whatever.

Does it seem like this is more the AWANAS thread right now?

The Lamma
04-05-2007, 09:13 PM
Thats why I mentioned we were getting off track earlier...Lol. Lets get back on? We could start an AWANA one somewhere else very easily.

unshakeable15
04-05-2007, 10:04 PM
*claps hands with excitement*

Yeaa! People are paying attention when they get off-topic!

Now to get back on topic, it's a pretty definitive "NO!" to the question "Do works save you?" If they did, we wouldn't need Jesus now, would we.

As Scott said, good deeds are the evidence of faith working itself out in our lives. They are the effect, not the cause, of our salvation.

The Lamma
04-06-2007, 11:12 AM
Works are also good ways to show our faith, in a way. If we didn't do good works, people would get bad impressions of us.

NightCrawler
04-06-2007, 01:42 PM
So they dress in black, tell people what to do and try to conquer the world?
Close. ;)

I was in AWANAS one year. I think it was fifth grade. We mostly just memorized Bible verses and then did this little chapel session. It required a lot of rote memorization, which I am not good at.
And I am decent with memorization, just not with the rote method. I need context to put it in.
Not high Si? Me neither. Meaning and context? Very much so.

AWANA, as nighcrawler said, [...] and am now a leader, and we are NOT fascists, whatever it is.
edit
Sorry, you're just showing your age.

also, i would recomend that he read Galatians 3 in it's entirety.
The entire book of Galatians overall gives a really good perspective, clearly and systematically, over the relationship of the Law, grace, and good works. It is imperative to read regarding this discussion!

Romans 3:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

AgainstTheTide
04-06-2007, 02:20 PM
you are saved by sheer faith, but if u are a true Christian, you will have good works....

The Lamma
04-06-2007, 04:48 PM
edit
Sorry, you're just showing your age.

Huh? And just curious, what kind of pic were you trying to put in? Lol.
But the mods like threads on track, so...

unshakeable15
04-08-2007, 02:46 PM
you are saved by sheer faith, but if u are a true Christian, you will have good works....
i think you need to further extrapolate what you mean here. What is "sheer faith?" What is a "true Christian?" If you are saying what i think you're saying, i can't fully agree. If you just misspoke, then you should clarify what you mean.

Here's some meat for the group to toss back and forth: Isn't having faith in something/someone an action you do? Basically, what separates faith in Christ from any other work you do, what makes this "good deed" so special as to be the key to God when no other "good deed" can claim that?

AgainstTheTide
04-08-2007, 02:52 PM
i'm just saying that you get salvation from faith in Jesus, not by going to church or feeding your dog. Works don't buy you a ticket to Heaven. But i do believe that if you are a believer of Christ, then you will have a natural desire to do good deeds....

unshakeable15
04-08-2007, 03:49 PM
Ok, glad you took that stand. :) The other stance, taking what you said literally, wasn't looking too good from a Biblical perspective. :)

NightCrawler
04-09-2007, 06:43 AM
Here's some meat for the group to toss back and forth: Isn't having faith in something/someone an action you do?
:: nods ::

So, what are you saved by? Grace. Nothing you did. You are tossed the rope and pulled in, you didn't toss the rope or pull yourself in. You didn't earn or deserve it at all, it wasn't because of anything about who you are.

Phil 1:
4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Who started the work in you, and who will complete it? Whose handiwork? So, God's grace (unmerited favour) is what determines your salvation. Your faith is not your own, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Voice of Truth
04-10-2007, 09:49 AM
Faith without works is dead.
Works alone will get nobody to heaven.

Night Crawler. Excellent.

The Lamma
04-10-2007, 04:45 PM
I believe that faith is kind of a higher level then trust: You'll believe and do everything you say. So no, I don't completely agree that its an action. It is shown by an action, but not an action in itself.

NightCrawler
04-11-2007, 06:26 AM
Take note the pattern of Hebrews 11.

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. [Definition]

"3By faith we understand "
"4By faith Abel offered "
"And by faith he still speaks"
"7By faith Noah [...] built an ark"
"8By faith Abraham [...] obeyed and went"

And so on and so forth. By faith [person] (action verb)

Obedience and deeds are a distinguishing mark of faith. So, if you have faith, then you will have deeds. However, you can have deeds without faith/communion with God (for example, the pharisees).

The Lamma
04-11-2007, 11:59 AM
So faith is hope. As Christians, we are based off hope. A good book for that is The Slumber Of Christianity by Ted Dekker. Hope is all we have, and it is more than what everyone else has.

bob
04-11-2007, 05:16 PM
So faith is hope. As Christians, we are based off hope.

I like to think that its based more on knowing, I mean, I don't hope God exists, I know he exists.

2 Corinthians 5:7- "For we walk by faith, not sight."

The Lamma
04-11-2007, 06:09 PM
Read that book I mentioned. It's really good. Also note these verses (I know there are a lot. I only got to Romans in the NT. It only proves my point):

1 Corinthians 15:19
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Matthew 12:21
In his name the nations will put their hope.

Luke 24:21
but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.

Acts 2:26
Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will live in hope,

Acts 23:6b
I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Acts 26:6
And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our fathers that I am on trial today.

Acts 26:7
This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. O king, it is because of this hope that the Jews are accusing me.

Romans 5:2b
And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans
3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Romans 8:24a
For in this hope we were saved.

Romans 8:25
But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Romans 12:12
Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Romans 15:12
And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

Romans 15:13
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

unshakeable15
04-11-2007, 08:33 PM
So, what are you saved by? Grace. Nothing you did. You are tossed the rope and pulled in, you didn't toss the rope or pull yourself in. You didn't earn or deserve it at all, it wasn't because of anything about who you are.
Agreed. But isn't the act of believing, the act of faith, the act of grabbing onto that rope tossed our way, isn't that act just that, an act, a deed, a work? Or is the fact that it is "faith" nullify that it is also "works"?

skynes
04-12-2007, 03:34 AM
I like to think that its based more on knowing, I mean, I don't hope God exists, I know he exists.

Biblical hope is different to normal hope. Our hope is a continual expectation of something certain arriving.

Read that book I mentioned. It's really good. Also note these verses (I know there are a lot. I only got to Romans in the NT. It only proves my point): ...


See? Wasn't no hard now was it. Lol. Now your argument is much more watertight.

The Lamma
04-12-2007, 10:14 AM
That was one subject I knew there was a TON of Biblical references too, so it was a lot easier. :P It's also great when you can come up with a page full of verses. :P

froggy'sgirl
04-12-2007, 05:57 PM
I'm so glad that Forceflow and myself aren't the only ones with that opinion. I know that faith saved me-not my good deeds. (which would be counterbalanced by my beating on my sisters!) The real problem here is that the guy really seems to believe what he's saying, and isn't open to any other ideas-bible based or not.

skynes
04-13-2007, 01:09 AM
I'm so glad that Forceflow and myself aren't the only ones with that opinion. I know that faith saved me-not my good deeds. (which would be counterbalanced by my beating on my sisters!) The real problem here is that the guy really seems to believe what he's saying, and isn't open to any other ideas-bible based or not.

Pray for him and ignore his nonsense.

If he's not open to Biblical ideas the only thing you can do is pray.

The Lamma
04-13-2007, 10:04 AM
Pray and make sure you have read a lot about it in the Bible, so that if he asks you about it or something, you have backup. And dont attempy to shove it down his throat at all.

froggy'sgirl
05-05-2007, 05:41 PM
Thanks much!

The Lamma
05-07-2007, 11:43 AM
Your quite welcome. I like good discussion. :)

md4j
05-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Agreed. But isn't the act of believing, the act of faith, the act of grabbing onto that rope tossed our way, isn't that act just that, an act, a deed, a work? Or is the fact that it is "faith" nullify that it is also "works"?I like to look at it this way. The rope was thrown down and we are told to tie it around us. Is the act of tying what saves or the pulling, done by Christ, what saves? All you have to do is have faith that once you tie the rope that Jesus will pull you up. You did nothing to save yourself, just relied on the faith that someone, Jesus, would pull you out of the pit.

For it is by grace that you are saved through faith and this not of works, lest any man should boast.

NightCrawler
05-17-2007, 11:36 PM
I like to look at it this way. The rope was thrown down and we are told to tie it around us. Is the act of tying what saves or the pulling, done by Christ, what saves? All you have to do is have faith that once you tie the rope that Jesus will pull you up. You did nothing to save yourself, just relied on the faith that someone, Jesus, would pull you out of the pit.

For it is by grace that you are saved through faith and this not of works, lest any man should boast.

And what does the "this" mean?

And this not of yourselves

I would contend that it is your faith. Your faith is not even your own.

skynes
05-18-2007, 02:16 AM
I would contend that it is your faith. Your faith is not even your own.

Yep.

Romans 12:3 "...as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. "

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 07:39 AM
If God deals a measure of faith to each one, why do I sometimes feel like I'm faith-less. (not faithless, but faith-less, if that makes sense?)

skynes
05-18-2007, 08:36 AM
why do I sometimes feel like I'm faith-less.

Cause feelings lie.

NightCrawler
05-18-2007, 09:48 AM
Yep.

Romans 12:3 "...as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. "
I wasn't aware of that verse.

[3] For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

The whole verse in NIV /\

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 10:16 AM
Cause feelings lie.

Uh-huh. How do you know that you have it, if you don't 'feel' it, then?

NightCrawler
05-18-2007, 10:25 AM
Uh-huh. How do you know that you have it, if you don't 'feel' it, then?
Because feelings don't always lie, maybe?

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 10:32 AM
Oh boy...Doesn't answer nothing, lol.

NightCrawler
05-18-2007, 10:38 AM
Oh boy...Doesn't answer nothing, lol.
Naturally, there are some doubts as to the confidence we have in our salvation and the faith God has given us. Peter goes over this in 2 Peter 1:3-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201:3-11;&version=31;)

skynes
05-18-2007, 10:46 AM
How do you know that you have it, if you don't 'feel' it, then?


Is sin despicable to you?

Do you find yourself continually falling into sin, knowing it to be sin and repenting of it?

Do you wish to be more like Christ all the time?

Do you find yourself telling people of God, even if you aren't happy?

I expect the answer to all of the above to be 'yes'. That is how you know someone has faith in Christ, their actions scream it.

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 10:59 AM
But guilt is natural among everyone, you should know.

skynes
05-18-2007, 11:20 AM
But guilt is natural among everyone, you should know.


Not repentance though.

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 11:29 AM
Right. That part kinda went into my head and fell out instantly.