Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 07:36 AM
I have read a lot of the threads in this section. Discussing if an artist is Christian or not. Yes you can be a Christian and sing in a secular band. Is it a good witness? In my opinion, no.

Yes I understand what a lot of you say. They make more money going mainstream, they get more airtime. I agree with both of these things. I cannot blame Mainstream radio for picking up on what Christian music is doing, the messages are positive, they rock out the same as the secular stuff, some even better.

Personally I find it ignorant that we assume you can serve two Gods.


Matthew 6:24 (New King James Version)
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

The God of love who sent his Son to the cross for our transgressions, to pay a debt he did not owe for a price we could not pay, and the God of $$ that makes it okay to sell out.

I am disappointed that we so easily excuse artists for doing this. They should be held accountable. God gave them their gifts, they used them to Glorify him and sing his Praises, then once they hit some modicum of success, they bolted for greener pastures ($$).

Bands like Petra, Audio Adrenaline, Steven Curtis Chapman, Third Day, and Casting Crowns have proven they can still sell huge amounts of albums and not turn their backs on God and become lukewarm or cold.

Revelation 3:16
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 07:41 AM
One point I forgot to add. For every good thing that the Lord uses and has, Satan the deceiver has a counterfeit. Do not be deceived. SAtan knows the bible better than all of us and uses "Scriptural messages" that are found in your favorite secular music to cause you to sin. Remember, sin starts in your mind. Sin is conceived there, whether it is born out of your mouth does not matter. Sin seperates us from God.

Tromos
04-11-2007, 07:51 AM
Interesting topic.

Two things: First of all, you seem to be assuming that the bands that compete in the secular market are doing so for selfish reasons. Money. Popularity. Perhaps they are just following the example of Jesus. The healthy don't a need a doctor. The sick do. Which is more important, entertaining the saved or saving the lost? And the lost aren't going to open the door if the one who's knocking is just brimming with messages of self-righteousness and judgementalism.

Jesus spent his time in two places, not just one. Preaching in public and partying with sinners. But His intention was to meet the sinners at their level and bring them to the Father. Without knowing the motivation of Christian bands (or secular bands with Christian members) for competing in the secular market, your perception is both short-sighted and self-righteous.

Second of all, while Satan may be able to imperfectly copy and twist the good things God has made, I think you give the enemy too much credit. In fact, I infer from your comments that you believe Satan to have the last word. But remember that no matter how much Satan twists something and turns it to evil, God can make all things serve His plan. God is always in charge and any control Satan has is just an illusion.

bob
04-11-2007, 07:54 AM
Is it a sin to provide entertainment?

Tromos
04-11-2007, 07:55 AM
Sin? I'm not gonna go there.

But if it isn't glorifying to God (somehow), then it's a waste of time that could be better spent saving a life.

skynes
04-11-2007, 08:35 AM
Yes you can be a Christian and sing in a secular band. Is it a good witness? In my opinion, no.

Can I be a good witness in a secular job?

If yes, why can't they?

If no, what job am I supposed to have?

Personally I find it ignorant that we assume you can serve two Gods.

Personally I find it ignorant that we generalise every single Christian into a box.

Personally I find it ignorant that we assume that every Christian band is able to walk into a music deal with a label.

Revelation 3:16
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

I have a personal grudge with this verse being misused. This is to do with a Christians actions. If a Christian preaches the Gospel and encourages the Saints, this does not apply to them. If they don't do those things than they have more serious issues than their label.


The God of love who sent his Son to the cross for our transgressions, to pay a debt he did not owe for a price we could not pay, and the God of $$ that makes it okay to sell out.

This is a generalisation that every Christian on a secular label is greedy and money worshipping. Did anyone consider that they got rejected from all the Christian labels? Are they somehow sinful for the big holy righteous Christian labels (read: money grubbing executives) to reject a band because they don't think its market appeal is enough?

(Yes I am aware that is a generalisation. It goes back to my use of hyperbole and sarcasm to make a point ;) lol)

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 08:50 AM
Good points all.

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 08:51 AM
Glorifying to God is the point though.

bob
04-11-2007, 08:58 AM
This is a generalisation that every Christian on a secular label is greedy and money worshipping. Did anyone consider that they got rejected from all the Christian labels?

Yep, a band that I'm friends with Seventh Seal (http://www.seventhsealband.com) was rejected by Tooth & Nail records because "they weren't Christian enough" but they were also rejected by a secular label because they "were too Christian". So now what? :P Just a side note, they are a lot more Christian in content than a lot of Tooth and Nail artists.

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 09:01 AM
My point is either your are a Christian band or you are not. Either you are glorifying God or you are not.

bob
04-11-2007, 09:05 AM
The only thing that irks me is band's like Switchfoot that say they're "Christian by faith, not genre", which I'm cool with. But then they sell their CDs to Christian bookstores. If you're not a Christian band, don't put your CD in a Christian store. But part of that could go to blame on the store owners as well . . .

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 09:31 AM
I know it is the Record Company's job to sell records.


In the end, if we are not glorifying God, who is getting the glory? If you are not singing praises to God, who are you singing praises to?

skynes
04-11-2007, 09:38 AM
Tracy the only real problem I have with what you say is that you are stating that all Christian bands MUST be on a Christian label or they're not Christians.

That isn't fair to the many many bands out there who got rejected from the labels.

A band is perfectly capable of glorifying God without being on a Christian label. Alice Cooper being one exmaple. He has publically said in an interview that he believes the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. He also said (same interview) that he did a Triptych of albums. I can only remember two, Brutal Planet (about the origins of the world and starting of sin) and Dragontown (Satan controlling the world)

Now he is not on a Christian label. He's been mainstream before I was ever born. Yet he speaks the Gospel publically and boldly.

My point is that Christian labels do not make a band Christian. Nor do secular labels make an ungodly band. They are nothing but companies publishing the albums to particular group of people for their own profit.

The Christian labels hand-pick bands that they think will sell in the Christian market, not bands which glorifying God the most.


But in contrary to that, there are lying bands. there will be bands on a secular label, claiming Christ, yet clearly in it for money. But there are bands like that on the Christian labels too.

Unregistered
04-11-2007, 09:39 AM
Maybe it's just good music that's not glorifying anything? I listen to all kinds of music, and more tgan half of it is from video games or remixes from said games.

I listen to music I think is well-made and high-quality. Just because some of my music doesn't glorify anything, doesn't mean it's a waste of time.

I can probably think of a few "secular" songs that helped me level out, and I can think of a few Christian songs that, for no reason at all, can make me go mad with anger.

Sometimes, music can have a purpose besides glorifying God. Game remixes are made half for the nostalgia effect (Legend of Zelda FTW!! ;D). I don't know whether you mean "we shouldn't listen to music that doesn't glorify God" or "what is the point of music that doesn't glorify God?" but my point is, if I like the music, and it doesn't cause me to sin, I'm not gonna just ignore it because it doesn't glorify God.

Taproot and Tool have both made at least one song each that have a good meaning, but neither song glorifies God. Rather, they help people to understand certain aspects of life that Christian music doesn't touch on, at least not in the ways those songs do.

I'll stop before my rambling gets out of control.

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 09:43 AM
Skynes, I could care less what label people are on, I care about the message their music sends, and the fact that a lot of people who start off as a "Christian Band", change to fit the model that is accepted in the world they are singing to.

*I did not know that Alice Cooper is a Christian though.

Now show me a song, lyrically where Alice Cooper used his talents to Glorify God.

I saw Angus Young on the 700 club about 15 years ago (Lead Guitarist from ACDC), he was on there talking about his "religion". Now I ask you, does the song Highway to Hell, portray a message of Praise to God or Satan?

Just being on a Christian Show, even though he plays for a Secular Band and professes to be a Christian, make it okay to Glorify a hedonistic lifestyle?


I ask again, If they are not glorifying God, whom are they heaping the glory and praises on?


Skynes, I really enjoy the discussion. It is obvious you spend alot of time int he word, I am learning more and more with each post. Thank You.

timmyrotter
04-11-2007, 09:43 AM
I know it is the Record Company's job to sell records.


In the end, if we are not glorifying God, who is getting the glory? If you are not singing praises to God, who are you singing praises to?

i think one thing you have to look at with a lot of these band is that, many of them wouldnt be co called Christian bands in the first place. maybe one or two of the musicians in a band are christians. so what should they do then? Thrice is a good example, Dustin Kensrue their lead singer is a Christian and their lyrics reflect that, especially in his solo project. but if he were to make a worship album, he would lose a huge fanbase, so what would be the point of that?

Christian bads can sit there and worship God, and never reach out to non-christians becuase of that barrier between christian and mainstream music. but the bands who cross over, keeping their faith, adding a positive message at the very least, to a negative world. more power to them! there are more band than ever out there like this.
As I Lay Dying
Anberlin
Skillet
TFK
Switchfoot
Relient K
Flyleaf

Just to name a few, there are countless Indie bands out there doing the same thing. i dont even need to confide in my earlier arguement, i love music, id listen to these bands either way...

skynes
04-11-2007, 09:50 AM
Interview with Alice Cooper (http://www.godscare.net/witness/alice_cooper.htm)


Skynes, I could care less what label people are on, I care about the message their music sends, and the fact that a lot of people who start off as a "Christian Band", change to fit the model that is accepted in the world they are singing to.

Would I be right in saying then that your problem isn't with Chistian bands on secular labels, but with Christian bands who claim Christ yet deny it by their life?

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 09:54 AM
i think one thing you have to look at with a lot of these band is that, many of them wouldnt be co called Christian bands in the first place. maybe one or two of the musicians in a band are christians. so what should they do then? Thrice is a good example, Dustin Kensrue their lead singer is a Christian and their lyrics reflect that, especially in his solo project. but if he were to make a worship album, he would lose a huge fanbase, so what would be the point of that?

Christian bads can sit there and worship God, and never reach out to non-christians becuase of that barrier between christian and mainstream music. but the bands who cross over, keeping their faith, adding a positive message at the very least, to a negative world. more power to them! there are more band than ever out there like this.
As I Lay Dying
Anberlin
Skillet
TFK
Switchfoot
Relient K
Flyleaf

Just to name a few, there are countless Indie bands out there doing the same thing. i dont even need to confide in my earlier arguement, i love music, id listen to these bands either way...

In the end, were it me, I would rather lose a fanbase for preaching the word and singing praises to God, than to risk my salvation and eternity in hell because I sacrificed my beliefs for someone elses opinion of me. The only opinion that really matters is God's. He better see Christ in our hearts when we stand before him or we will "Depart for I never knew you."




When we go before God we go naked and alone. None of the people we tried so hard to please here on earth will be there to help us.

skynes
04-11-2007, 09:55 AM
than to risk my salvation and eternity in hell because I sacrificed my beliefs for someone elses opinion of me.

ahhh, so now you're stepping into the "you must do so much good stuff or lose your salvation" argument.

When we go before God we go naked and alone.

I go with Christ by my side and clothed in His righteousness. ;)

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 09:57 AM
ahhh, so now you're stepping into the "you must do so much good stuff or lose your salvation" argument.



I go with Christ by my side and clothed in His righteousness. ;)


No not by works. If I choose to serve flesh and self, I am not serving God. Flesh and self equal sin, and that seperates us from God.


I will pick up this discussion after work. Take care all.

timmyrotter
04-11-2007, 11:08 AM
In the end, were it me, I would rather lose a fanbase for preaching the word and singing praises to God, than to risk my salvation and eternity in hell because I sacrificed my beliefs for someone elses opinion of me. The only opinion that really matters is God's. He better see Christ in our hearts when we stand before him or we will "Depart for I never knew you."




When we go before God we go naked and alone. None of the people we tried so hard to please here on earth will be there to help us.

okay im done laughing....

do you honestly think these bands have lost their salvation over music? Skynes is handling this better than me. but i have to say something.

its not any different than any other profession, why dont you attack store clerks who are christians but dont scream it out every 5 minutes? Worshiping glorifies God, that is great. being a light in a dark world, like Skillet or Flyleaf, that seems better to me. still have doubts? this couldnt have come at a better time, Thanks Skillet! http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=12268788&blogID=252065016&Mytoken=684AF18B-9176-4965-8E6030C8C94349A07347285

The Lamma
04-11-2007, 11:36 AM
One reason Switchfoot has gone secular is to be more of a ministry, I believe. Is there a problem with that? Same with the rest of that list Timmy mentioned, along with a lot more.

DarkestRose
04-11-2007, 12:03 PM
I don’t quite see what is such a bad witness about being Christian in a secular band. Because the market is so much bigger than that of the Christian market, there is a wider potential of reaching out to unsaved kids with a positive message. That is what Skillet has been doing, as well as Flyleaf. Both bands have songs that founded in the faith, as well as songs that discuss issues like suicide, cutting, abuse, loneliness, depression, and other issues that teenagers are facing. Just to have Christians who are willing to, without any pretense, come and love these kids, give them hope for one more day is a beautiful witness. It’s not about fame or fortune or popularity or record sales or airplay. It’s about showing these kids, some who probably wouldn’t come to a Christian concert, love and faith and hope and inspiration. And that glorifies God.

DarkestRose
04-11-2007, 12:35 PM
Not to corner you, Tracey, but would your feelings be similar to the ones you've stated in the format of fiction writing? I just wonder because I have been hoping to become at least a part-time writer, though currently of Christian fiction because its the Christian audience I want to address, and I wonder if you had an opinion about the differences between Christian or secular writing or being signed to a Christian/non Christian publishing company.

agent_c68
04-11-2007, 02:46 PM
How would you define “Glorifying God?”

Here’s a thought about the Christian in the secular band? Do you think that people would notice the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control in his life while being surrounded by rock stars? Do you think people would ask why he had love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control in the midst of the opposite?

I am not saying that just because a member of a band claims Christ that the music is good or Glorifying, but it doesn’t automatically disqualify him from being a good Christian or Glorifying God because of that. Sure, he may not be verbally preaching or singing praise music (although there are some songs that could be sung as worship songs) at the concerts and shows, but that does not mean that it is absent in his life.

lee
04-11-2007, 03:43 PM
ok.. in my opinion... the christian market is controlling... most bands sound like everyone else in the secular market.... we are finally picking up on emo...i mean.. GOSH!!! stop copying everything the secular market does...and the fact that almost every song has to have something to do with god... i mean.. that is fine if your chris tomlin.. but dude...i don't want to hear that from a punk band...punk music is not worship music....it doesn't fit....i am going to try to get signed toa label... but i am staying away from the christian market....at all cost....just who i am...

somasoul
04-11-2007, 04:34 PM
Voice of Truth sounds like every cookie cutter youth group sermon I've ever heard.


No offense, VoT. I've heard this jibba-jabba a hundred times before.

Sometimes I wonder how "Christian" Jesus was. By our standards, he was a pretty cruddy Xian.

Unregistered
04-11-2007, 05:00 PM
Voice of Truth sounds like every cookie cutter youth group sermon I've ever heard.


No offense, VoT. I've heard this jibba-jabba a hundred times before.

Sometimes I wonder how "Christian" Jesus was. By our standards, he was a pretty cruddy Xian.

Well, technically He wasn't a Christian... He IS Christ. :P

bob
04-11-2007, 05:07 PM
Sometimes I wonder how "Christian" Jesus was. By our standards, he was a pretty cruddy Xian.

Well, considering he visited synagogs, observed Judaic rituals such at the Passover, and was Jewish to begin with, I'd have to lean towards Jesus being more Judaic that anything. But then again, Christian means "of Christ", so how could Jesus be of Christ? :P

Tromos
04-11-2007, 05:17 PM
Since He came to fulfill the Law of Moses, Jesus was, in fact, the perfect Jew. It's only through what He did through His death and resurrection that such a thing as a "Christian" exists. So clearly He wasn't a Christian.

But Tim is right. I'm convinced that Jesus would offend today's religious people every bit as much as He offended the religious people of the day. They called Jesus a "glutton" and a "wine-bibber". We'd probably call Him a slob and a drunk.

He partied with sinners. With prostitutes. With corrupt politicians (i.e. tax-collectors). I don't know of more than a handful of Christians that wouldn't dismiss Him as a disgrace to the Father. Add to that all the rumors of His questionable parentage that probably floated around Nazareth when He was growing up, and most people today would probably assume He was a druggie.

I still disagree with you, VOT. God looks at our hearts and it doesn't matter to others or to God how you feel about it. Personally, if I know I'm doing God's will, no one else's opinion matters, including the self-righteous.

bob
04-11-2007, 05:23 PM
But Tim is right. I'm convinced that Jesus would offend today's religious people every bit as much as He offended the religious people of the day. They called Jesus a "glutton" and a "wine-bibber". We'd probably call Him a slob and a drunk.


Well yeah, Christians today often water down Christ's ministry and they really forget how radical Jesus was. He completely challenged the entire system and beat it, something that was unheard of back then. :)

The Lamma
04-11-2007, 05:59 PM
the christian market is controlling... most bands sound like everyone else in the secular market.... we are finally picking up on emo...i mean.. GOSH!!! stop copying everything the secular market does...and the fact that almost every song has to have something to do with god...

Picking up secular genres can be a good ministry. If you're gonna blast the Chrsitian music area, please, I want you to blast everything else Christian, too!! And if it doesn't at least hint to God in some songs, whats the point of trying to be a ministry?

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 10:37 PM
Whoever said that that nobody's opinions really matter except God's hit it right on the head.

Voice of Truth
04-11-2007, 11:24 PM
I'll stop before my rambling gets out of control.

It didn't stop me. :)

skynes
04-12-2007, 03:31 AM
Picking up secular genres can be a good ministry.

There's a slight difference between using a secular genre to further Christ's kingdom and just copying it with no originality whatsoever.

terrasin
04-12-2007, 09:51 AM
Heh, the funny thing about these threads is that they drip with ignorance from people who assume that everything we do, or that everything in the entertainment industry at least, should be about God if we are Christians.

First off, let me say that most people here know that my band, TerraSin, is not a Christian band. I've worked in the Christian market long enough now to understand just how corrupted it is and that I want no part of it. Also, I have no desire to have people telling me what I can and cannot write about in my music. Third and most important, while music to me is something I love and couldn't live without doing, it's also a JOB. It's the same thing that each of us go to every single day to make a paycheck and afford all the things we have from houses to cars.

Instantly the word money always seems to send red flags up within the Christian communities when you're talking about the entertainment industry. There seems to be this false sense of stupidity that people come up with that make them have this brain dysfunction to think that Christian musicians should be doing what they do for... free? NO. If that were the case, you would never get to see your favorite bands live because they would be working a second job and never be able to tour. Bands need to be able to make money so they can live. Just like you need to make money so you can afford to live. Does that mean they should only make a certain amount? No. Does your being a Christian mean that you should only make a certain amount? Certainly not. Especially since the Bible says we should leave an inheritance to our children's children. That's a lot of money.

Then there is the issue of song content. I have no desire to sing about God. That's what Sunday church is for. I prefer to write about things in my own mind. And you know what? There is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make me any less of a Christian than the next guy. It just means my writing is not influenced as highly by faith as some other peoples. Or maybe that's the wrong way to say it. I find that writing about one topic is very limiting. "God I love you, God Help me, God ... etc". Christian music, at least contemporary, has become boring and repetitive. That type of writing is not for me.

CJ

Tromos
04-12-2007, 09:59 AM
Heh, the funny thing about these threads is that they drip with ignorance from people who assume that everything we do . . . should be about God if we are Christians.

Um, yeah. If not, you've missed the point of Christianity. Sorry.

The Lamma
04-12-2007, 10:20 AM
Great point, terrasin. And yeah, as long as the song is positive and not saying 'I'm gonna kill myslef' all over the place, its cool. The part that matters for ministry is the actual people, not the music.

There's a slight difference between using a secular genre to further Christ's kingdom and just copying it with no originality whatsoever.

Yeah, it can be both, though. (Like one person does this, and the other that)

skynes
04-12-2007, 12:28 PM
Um, yeah. If not, you've missed the point of Christianity. Sorry.

I think he means the...

no secular job, cause it's not Godly
no TV, it's not Godly
no entertainment, it's not Godly
no games, they're not Godly

oh look, I live in a cardboard box... made by a CHRISTIAN organisation. Can't live in a secular box now can we?


...attitude


Ya know CJ I was wondering when you were gonna poke in here. Secretly placing bets with myself.... and ... I lost. I was thinking first page. Lol

Unregistered
04-12-2007, 12:58 PM
Ya know CJ I was wondering when you were gonna poke in here. Secretly placing bets with myself.... and ... I lost. I was thinking first page. Lol

I was waiting for him to pop in here and prove my point. :P

NightCrawler
04-12-2007, 01:36 PM
You can glorify God in more ways than just simply acknowledging him in word or affiliation. (lyrics or label)

For example, are all you conversations about God? No. But you can glorify God with your lips by keeping your words wholesome and beneficial.

Are all of your papers about theology proper? No. But you can glorify God with your work by being efficient, concise, and demonstrative of how God has blessed you (intellect, experiences, etc.)

Are all of your ________ about ________? Probably nothing fits this. Since we know that God can be glorified in (dare I say) infinite ways, then why say that one thing with necessary variation (music ability, renown, etc.) must be wholly explicit of something God-related?

Surely your motives can be godly, and the fruit of the spirit can manifest in every action you do, but that does not mean every action must necessarily speak the words of God or otherwise explicitly declare God.

skynes
04-12-2007, 02:17 PM
Surely your motives can be godly, and the fruit of the spirit can manifest in every action you do, but that does not mean every action must necessarily speak the words of God or otherwise explicitly declare God.

If this quote is not true, then every piece of artwork I have ever made is demonic and sinful. The wallpapers I made for Laura's desktop are unGodly. The Degree I'm doing at University buys me a one way ticket to sin-ville.

st1_Lord
04-12-2007, 03:28 PM
I agree. One of the greatest testimonies for a Christian is not what they are saying but how well they do it. I believe that Christian professors in prestigious universities have an incredible testimony for Christians. They don't have to be theology professors. By representing the Christian populace in excellence they are a great testimony.

On another note...
Christ's final command was the great commission: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I believe Paul demonstrated obedience to this command when he said, "I have become all things to all men in order that I might save some."

Christian bands in a secular setting seek to bring the truth to a dark world. In order to do this they must be accepted by the world. They then write their lyrics not to shove the Bible down the unbeliever's throat, but simply to plant the seed. They then water the seed through their testimonies and actions. The cross-over band is not the necessarily the one to harvest the seed. In fact I would say they are not, period.

I believe it is glorifying to God to plant seeds in thousands of unbelievers, resulting in some coming to know Christ. This is a much more worthy and God-honoring goal than to seek to be on the top of the Christian heap. These bands should not be criticized. Rather, they should be lauded for their Christ-like focus on not the healthy, but the sick.

The Lamma
04-12-2007, 04:26 PM
I quite agree with Scott and Nate. And people make sure you read Skillet's latest blog (Timmy posted it on the last page) before you talk against 'secular Christian' or whatever.

The job I was just working with had a Chrsitian boss, but most of the employees weren't. They all seemed pretty nice, but a couple swore and all that. Is this not a minsitry opportunity?

somasoul
04-12-2007, 04:50 PM
They all seemed pretty nice, but a couple swore and all that.

I use profanity.

But then again, I'm a pretty bad Christian.

somasoul
04-12-2007, 04:53 PM
If you're gonna blast the Chrsitian music area, please, I want you to blast everything else Christian, too!! And if it doesn't at least hint to God in some songs, whats the point of trying to be a ministry?

I knew the "Prayer of Jabez" thing had gone too far when I saw a road sign for the "Prayer of Jabez House Cleaning Service".

I swear.

Xianity has gone really too far. You think secular stuff does stuff just for the $$$. How about all the "Jesus Junk" you can buy at any Xian book store? If it didn't say "Jesus", it wouldn't sell.

The Lamma
04-12-2007, 04:55 PM
Hey, don't crush yourslef, man. And it was mainly f words when my boss wasn't around.

Foxfaith is what it is for the money...But not the people making movies under it, necessarily.

Quadripedman
04-12-2007, 05:14 PM
I know it is the Record Company's job to sell records.


In the end, if we are not glorifying God, who is getting the glory? If you are not singing praises to God, who are you singing praises to?

who ever said that every song that anyone ever sings is praise to someone/thing? i know a lot of songs that praise nothing. who ever said that you have to glorify God with everything you sing? there are a lot of Christian bands (TFK, for example) whoes songs arent all worship songs, theyre just....songs. you can have songs, they dont have to be worship songs for everything. and if you have a problem with it, dont listen to it.

ADD ON:

and just like in my signature: straight from Jesus, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, it is the sick."

that is why bands like switchfoot, tfk (hear them all the time on my local (100% secular) radio station), and skillet, and flyleaf are in the secular market: they arent jamming the Bible down anybody's throat (sp). they are helping the lost to find the Lord. What better of a thing could you possible do with your skills, in my opinion?

Tromos
04-12-2007, 05:17 PM
I think he means the...

no secular job, cause it's not Godly
no TV, it's not Godly
no entertainment, it's not Godly
no games, they're not Godly

oh look, I live in a cardboard box... made by a CHRISTIAN organisation. Can't live in a secular box now can we?


...attitude


Ah, got it. Sorry for the knee-jerk comment, then.




If this quote is not true, then every piece of artwork I have ever made is demonic and sinful. The wallpapers I made for Laura's desktop are unGodly. The Degree I'm doing at University buys me a one way ticket to sin-ville.

*hands Scotty a beach towel and some sunscreen*

Gets mighty hot where you're headed, fella ;D




I believe that Christian professors in prestigious universities have an incredible testimony for Christians. They don't have to be theology professors. By representing the Christian populace in excellence they are a great testimony.

So how ironic, then, is it that the most offensively un-Christian professors I've met have been in Christian universities? :-\

Unregistered
04-12-2007, 05:56 PM
Soma's been hitting the high notes for me. Bad Christian, bad! ;)

I've seen just as much money-grubbing in the Christian market as in the secular. Who needs another "No high like the Most High" coffee mug/t-shirt/cap/wristband/toilet bowl cover? Okay, maybe I haven't seen that last one [yet], but that's the point. It's all to make money.

So which glorifies God more? Being in the Xian music market and rehashing the same lines over and over again, or going into the secular music scene and standing out with your lyrics and music?

But does everything we do have to glorify God? I can think of a few things we all do daily that don't glorify God. Should we abstain from eating because it's not glorifying God? Should we abstain from hanging out with friends and goofing around like chuckleheads because it doesn't glorify God in our every movement? I challenge you to ask yourself "Should I be doing this? Is it glorifying God?" to EVERY SINGLE THING you do in life, every moment, and tell me what answer you come up with.

"No, it's not glorifying God." But, if it isn't sin, what is wrong with it? Eating isn't a sin. Going to sleep at night isn't a sin. So why stop. In my eyes, same thing applies: Listening to music that's not sinful isn't a sin, so what is so terribly wrong with it?

DarkestRose
04-12-2007, 08:08 PM
I've worked in the Christian market long enough now to understand just how corrupted it is and that I want no part of it.

Like what about it?

skynes
04-13-2007, 01:17 AM
*hands Scotty a beach towel and some sunscreen*

Gets mighty hot where you're headed, fella

Dang, best start digging I suppose! 7th layer of hell isn't quuuite deep enough for me.

skilletfreak101
04-13-2007, 07:50 AM
.I've worked in the Christian market long enough now to understand just how corrupted it is and that I want no part of it.

CJ

i agree that the christian market is corrupted. "christian" music these days is pretty much just another market in todays world. We have producers and record companies telling us what to do with our music so that it pleases the christian crowd. that's terrible. That's why I think that the best example of a "Christian" band is Jonah33. They joined the major christian label SRE and later dumped it because they were trying to tell them what to do with their music so that it would please everyone. They decided that they wanted to please God, and not the machine. i have so much respect for them for doing that.

The Lamma
04-13-2007, 09:53 AM
I love song of Jonah33's stuff...Awesomeness. Anyone heard of Saosin? Apparently they are Chritians. And they are out big in the secular market.

unshakeable15
04-13-2007, 03:39 PM
But does everything we do have to glorify God? I can think of a few things we all do daily that don't glorify God. Should we abstain from eating because it's not glorifying God? Should we abstain from hanging out with friends and goofing around like chuckleheads because it doesn't glorify God in our every movement? I challenge you to ask yourself "Should I be doing this? Is it glorifying God?" to EVERY SINGLE THING you do in life, every moment, and tell me what answer you come up with.

"No, it's not glorifying God." But, if it isn't sin, what is wrong with it? Eating isn't a sin. Going to sleep at night isn't a sin. So why stop. In my eyes, same thing applies: Listening to music that's not sinful isn't a sin, so what is so terribly wrong with it?
*clears throat*

1 Corinthians 10:31
"Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

Unregistered
04-13-2007, 03:49 PM
*clears throat*

1 Corinthians 10:31
"Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

Point taken. Forgetful Joe, out! Still something I don't get, though. No, I don't know what it is, but I'll come back to it in a few days, LOL. Had something to do with the thread.

Quadripedman
04-13-2007, 05:26 PM
Point taken. Forgetful Joe, out!
<---------- (look a few inches that way)
What'd I do *this* time?!?!?

Tromos
04-13-2007, 07:34 PM
No idea.

But let me say this. Anyone who takes that last step and says there's that one thing that you can't do for the glory of God has clearly never had kidney stones or been on dialysis.

Trust me. I praise God for that one thing every day.

frymeskillet
04-13-2007, 07:51 PM
Well, if it makes any difference...I would like to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the point you are trying to get across, Tracy. Sometimes people have a hard time seeing what it is that you are really trying to say...and instead pick apart your every word and turn it against you, but I understand what you are trying to say.



...Anyways, just thought I'd let you know! :)

Voice of Truth
04-14-2007, 05:07 AM
Thanks, but in everyone's defense, my argument had a lot of holes in it. I knew what I was trying to say, I just was not getting it across. This whole thing came about after spending a few hours hitting "Christian Bands and Artists' web pages and reading their bio's.


I was kind of on edge after I kept seeing that there was absolutely no glory given to God concerning the success they have achieved. Not to mention certain blogs on those websites where the artist was actually swearing in their daily post, along with pictures of after show parties where partying was going on.

All that being said, if I am wrong, I am wrong. I don't think I am, but, it would not be the first time. I think the discussion has been great. I see that it is a very touchy subject.

This scripture should have been included in my very first post.

1 Corinthians 10:31
"Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

I agree going into the the areas where God's message and giving them a watered down version of biblical truth, does do more good that not giving them any. Milk before Meat. Somebody needs to take the initial steps in bring souls to Christ, if that means doing the above so that a field (heart) is prepared for for planting the seed of what Christ did for everyone of us, and ultimately allowing God to bring the rain that will nourish that seed, and enable it to grow.

In the end, it matters not how people get to Christ, but that they do receive him, in love.

Great discussion guys!

skilletfreak101
04-14-2007, 07:36 AM
i think the best way to reach out to the lost as a band is to just be really talented and really good at what you do. if you are a really awesome sounding band that will draw people in, it will help them easier accept what you are trying to say through the music.

Quadripedman
04-14-2007, 10:46 AM
Not to mention certain blogs on those websites where the artist was actually swearing in their daily post, along with pictures of after show parties where partying was going on.



Hey, im Christian and i use profanity. i try not to, but i do.

and parties with partying? what, your suppoest to go to a party and be all depressed? people are human. they are not above anyone else, or above sin, just because they are Christian.

NightCrawler
04-14-2007, 11:11 AM
Thanks, but in everyone's defense, my argument had a lot of holes in it. I knew what I was trying to say, I just was not getting it across. This whole thing came about after spending a few hours hitting "Christian Bands and Artists' web pages and reading their bio's.

I was kind of on edge after I kept seeing that there was absolutely no glory given to God concerning the success they have achieved. Not to mention certain blogs on those websites where the artist was actually swearing in their daily post, along with pictures of after show parties where partying was going on.
Who are you to be angry? You have no authority, nor do I.

All that being said, if I am wrong, I am wrong. I don't think I am, but, it would not be the first time. I think the discussion has been great. I see that it is a very touchy subject.
Which is more effective witness, an attractive tract or a Christian friend?

I think, and I too could be wrong, that a living person is more effective than words or a tune, or combination of words and song. So, no matter how you spin it, an artist is not obligated to witness to strangers he will never meet. In fact, it sounds like a worthless attempt at saving people if ever intended. Regarding giving glory, you cannot ever judge someone you do not know over whether they give God the glory or not. You cannot know, therefore how can you assume one way or the other. And by what authority is any man to judge?

DarkestRose
04-14-2007, 11:50 AM
Thanks, but in everyone's defense, my argument had a lot of holes in it. I knew what I was trying to say, I just was not getting it across. This whole thing came about after spending a few hours hitting "Christian Bands and Artists' web pages and reading their bio's.

I was kind of on edge after I kept seeing that there was absolutely no glory given to God concerning the success they have achieved. Not to mention certain blogs on those websites where the artist was actually swearing in their daily post, along with pictures of after show parties where partying was going on.

I doubt you or want to pick on you, but what bands? Just out of curiosity? Are these cross-over bands? Because the quote sounds like they are Christian bands you were talking about, and I was under the impression that you were for Christian bands and not for secular bands. So, I'm probably not quite getting what you're saying or in need of elaboration.

Now, I agree with you, Tracey, that swearing is a huge pet peeve of mine. It does offend me. Being that Christian artists, like any other Christian, are imperfect people, chances are this is just something they struggle with. I've known Christians who struggle with it and so it shouldn't surprise me that Christian artists do as well. I guess it just requires a degree of patience.

I wonder what you mean about the partying thing though? I wonder first off what is morally wrong about being at a party, or how you define "partying going on." Do you mean like alcohol being served? Or something along those lines? Because Skillet did a tour where several shows included playing at bars. They didn't partake in the same activities but they had an impact on the people there, and those shows had an impact on John to reach out to people who were hurting, people who the church sometimes neglected or overlooked.

DarkestRose
04-14-2007, 12:05 PM
Well, if it makes any difference...I would like to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the point you are trying to get across, Tracy. Sometimes people have a hard time seeing what it is that you are really trying to say...and instead pick apart your every word and turn it against you, but I understand what you are trying to say.



...Anyways, just thought I'd let you know! :)

Well, I do agree with Savannah that I think I sort of get what she was trying to say. And I do agree that we should seek to glorify God with everything in our life, that God should be our devotion, and every aspect of our life should reflect that. I don't agree that Christian music in the only way to do that in music arena of the entertainment industry. But I don't think Tracey's intent was to come off as judgmental and/or self-righteous.

AgainstTheTide
04-14-2007, 12:41 PM
personally, i believe that profanity isn't a problem unless your directing it to a person in an mean way....

Voice of Truth
04-14-2007, 01:55 PM
go here..


www.way.fm and click on the artists link. Go to the webpages of some of the Christian Artists. Read their stuff for yourselves. Now mind you, I am not at all saying they are all like that, but a fair amount of them are. And by partying, I am talking drinking alcohol.


I was not saying I was angry, just more at ill at ease with what I saw in some of the pictures,and blog entries.

somasoul
04-14-2007, 03:48 PM
go here..


www.way.fm and click on the artists link. Go to the webpages of some of the Christian Artists. Read their stuff for yourselves. Now mind you, I am not at all saying they are all like that, but a fair amount of them are. And by partying, I am talking drinking alcohol.


I was not saying I was angry, just more at ill at ease with what I saw in some of the pictures,and blog entries.


You don't even know these people. Yet you judge them based on what's on a web page. They are people. The 60 minutes worth of music on their CD's is only a very, very, small portion of who they are. All things written on the internet should be taken with a grain of salt because it's terribly impersonal.

DarkestRose
04-14-2007, 05:54 PM
I actually must have missed over whatever it was you saw, Tracy. The band pages I saw included nothing about partying, and many of the bands were very passionate about loving God and many had strong messages that they felt lead by God to share with others. I think I must have missed whatever blogs you saw.

I know it might sound gossipy, but for the sake of getting somewhere, could you just name names of whose site/journal/photos it was that bothered you?

Edit: (added comment) I'm also feeling that this has nothing to do with the question of whether one can be a Christian in a secular band. Rather, it has to do with Christian bands and how they act.

DarkestRose
04-14-2007, 07:01 PM
personally, i believe that profanity isn't a problem unless your directing it to a person in an mean way....

But it could offend someone, which isn't loving, even if unintended. Or it could be a stumbling blcok for them, especially if they are struggling with their thoughts or something.

skynes
04-15-2007, 04:07 AM
And by partying, I am talking drinking alcohol.

Ooo scaaaary alcohol! And we all know Alcohol is the devil's drink don't we? lol.

The Bible condemns drunkeness, not alcohol. Though it does recommend staying away from it as common sense, nothing forbids it entirely.

Not to mention certain blogs on those websites where the artist was actually swearing in their daily post

What kind of swearing? You see if this is a European band, their definition of swearing will be drastically different to yours. America does not set the standard for what is good and foul language. So while you might be saying they're swearing, they'll shrug and go "It's a word in our culture that means differently to yours"

As for general profanity, I swear sometimes in my blog. Does that make me less of a Christian? Nope. It's me being honest about I think and feel and transparently showing a fault in my character.

Tromos
04-15-2007, 08:54 AM
I swear sometimes in my blog. Does that make me less of a Christian? Nope. It's me being honest about I think and feel and transparently showing a fault in my character.

So do your lustful thoughts make you less of a Christian? How about the bitterness you hold in your heart for that person who hurt you? How about the things you yell at the person on the road that just cut you off?

Where do you draw the line, Scottie?

Certainly you know that Eph 4:29 says, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

And in James 3:10 "Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be."

So perhaps, because it's the way you are and an expression of yourself, it must be OK because it honestly reflects your feelings?

I have to challenge that position. I think the Bible clearly states otherwise.

DarkestRose
04-15-2007, 09:44 AM
We might need a separate thread for the swearing argument because it's getting off-topic from the idea of music glorifying God.

st1_Lord
04-15-2007, 01:53 PM
Is this another anti 12 Stones crusade? This begins to make more sense when 12 Stones is the first listed artist...

DarkestRose
04-15-2007, 02:54 PM
Is this another anti 12 Stones crusade? This begins to make more sense when 12 Stones is the first listed artist...

I don't know. I'm not too into them (not to be dissing on them because they're a good group). I used to like them, but I like RED more, so I sort of "replaced" 12 Stones. All the blogs of theirs that I found were audio, which I currently couldn't listen to, so I missed their entries, if so.

st1_Lord
04-15-2007, 03:06 PM
Yeah, they're okay, but I'm not all that into them. I just saw them on that artist list, and remembered the issue with the album acknowledgments awhile back. I thought maybe this was related.

DarkestRose
04-15-2007, 03:27 PM
Yeah, they're okay, but I'm not all that into them. I just saw them on that artist list, and remembered the issue with the album acknowledgments awhile back. I thought maybe this was related.

Yeah. I remember the album acknowledgements issue. ::]

unshakeable15
04-15-2007, 09:57 PM
There's book that was 'published' online a couple years ago. It was a free download via PDF. Unfortunately, it is no longer available; the website is down and the author's site is "Coming Soon!"

So, since i can't point you to a place where you can the 'book', i'll just have to upload the copy i downloaded, then give you the url so you, too, can download this 234 KB document. :) (Click here! (http://www.sharebigfile.com/file/144257/revolution-pdf.html))

Basically, it's a book, Revolution by Scott Hawk, that gives an insider's look at the Christian music industry. He explains how everythings works, the ins and outs, painting a picture of an industry that's very different from the cardboard cut-out presented to us.

Anyway, i thought it had some bearing on the discussion. It's only 50 pages long (counting the Preface and Acknowledgements pages).

skynes
04-15-2007, 10:49 PM
Where do you draw the line, Scottie?


You misunderstand, I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that if I were to hide it, I'm guilty of hypocrisy. I want my faults to become known and transparent and I can't do that by hiding them. I don't want people to get the wrong idea of me by how I act online.

So do your lustful thoughts make you less of a Christian? How about the bitterness you hold in your heart for that person who hurt you? How about the things you yell at the person on the road that just cut you off?

No, no and absolutely no. My being a Christian has nothing to do with my works and how good I am. It is to do with Christ's righteousness and what He did for me.

Certainly you know that Eph 4:29 says, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

And in James 3:10 "Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be."

I would like to know what the Bible considers unwholesome talk. For in the Bible we have sexually explicit metaphors, incredibly gory stories and Paul swore multiple times (censored as 'trash' or 'garbage' in english bibles)

So perhaps, because it's the way you are and an expression of yourself, it must be OK because it honestly reflects your feelings?

Partly yes, partly no. It isn't ok because I'm like that. However to say anything less than how I feel is to lie to everyone reading because it does not reflect how I truly feel.

I have to challenge that position. I think the Bible clearly states otherwise.

Given how you understood what I wrote, you'd be right and I'd challenge it too, lol.

It's a flaw I'm working on, tell me, why should I hide my flaws? Why hide sin? When hiding it strengthens it 1000 fold.

Tromos
04-16-2007, 06:28 AM
I wasn't suggesting hiding it. I was suggesting changing it.

Every time you sin, you choose to sin. You have the same option to choose not to. Just because it's who you are now is not an excuse to perpetuate the sinful things you do. You're an intelligent, creative guy. I'm sure you can find a way to express yourself without words that may offend others (and possibly God). Right now, it just sounds like you're using your imperfections as an excuse to continue being imperfect. Sadly, Jesus doesn't allow for any acceptable levels of failure.

If you're more concerned about not hiding who you are than you are about changing who you are to please God, then it sounds like a priority mix-up to me. If I want to respond to you by saying "Sounds like a pile of bull**** to me" but choose instead to say "I think you're deceiving yourself and trying to pull us with you", have I betrayed who I am or given a false impression of myself? And even if you infer something about me that isn't accurate, how is that relevant to me modifying my choice of words in such a way that I (hopefully) don't offend my Lord in the process?

I guess I feel it's your job (as it is all of our jobs) to represent Jesus the very best we can. Concern about what other people infer from that isn't really part of the equation, ya know?

Voice of Truth
04-16-2007, 08:11 AM
Ephesians 4:29 "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

I guess I should have backed up my stance on this issue with more scriptures. But even so, if I had done that, there are people on here who call me self righteous and judgmental because of my opinion on what I hear and read, yet turn around in their posts and do the same thing.

I will try in the future to link scripture better with my thoughts so as to not confuse anyone with what I am trying to say.

Tromos
04-16-2007, 08:26 AM
But even so, if I had done that, there are people on here who call me self righteous and judgmental because of my opinion on what I hear and read

It's all in the presentation, my dear. To date, you haven't really presented them as your opinion. You've presented your opinion as Scriptural fact. I think that's the reason you've felt attacked.

Personally, I think your heart is very much in the right place and that you have fairly reasonable justification for many of your opinions. On the other hand, I sometimes get the feeling that you have decided that you're right before the discussion starts and that you feel your job is to instruct the rest of us instead of really trying to see others' perspectives. Now, I will admit that this has been my inference and may not represent your actual personality.

DarkestRose
04-16-2007, 12:17 PM
I do think, Tracy, has his heart is in the right place.

I myself like artists for the values or causes that they present as being dear to them, and do wish for them to live those out congruently with integrity. There is nothing wrong with that. I suppose I have found that in my own spiritual walk, I have required a great abundance of forgiveness, mercy, grace, patience and understanding, so I should not be surprised when others need the same. I still idealize people I admire into what I hope they are, instead of who they are, and I know disappointing it is when people I admire turn out to be human instead of ideal.

And I am very stubborn with my opinions too, and still struggle with understanding everyone else's perspective instead of convincing people of the rightness of my own. I can't imagine that one holds their opinons for any other reason than that they believe these opinions are right.

I honestly do not believe that Tracy wanted to come off as self-righteous or judging. I didn't "get" or agree with all of his points, but I trust that he did make them with a heart of goodness not a holier-than-thou attitude.

dawn of light
04-16-2007, 01:58 PM
I would like to know what the Bible considers unwholesome talk.
Ephesians 4:29 ....but only such speech as is good and beneficial to the spiritual progress of others, as is fitting to the need and the occasion, that it may be a blessing and give grace (God's favor) to those who hear it....

I guess, if it satisfies any of these conditions, it's not considered unwholesome.

Quadripedman
04-16-2007, 01:58 PM
Yeah. I remember the album acknowledgements issue. ::]

sorry to get off topic, but what was the issue with them?

DarkestRose
04-16-2007, 02:00 PM
sorry to get off topic, but what was the issue with them?

They had a curse word in their thank yous and a select group was all, "A Christian band cussed!" Not a highly dramatic story, but it earned them a degree of criticism.

Voice of Truth
04-16-2007, 02:03 PM
I do think, Tracy, has her heart is in the right place.

I myself like artists for the values or causes that they present as being dear to them, and do wish for them to live those out congruently with integrity. There is nothing wrong with that. I suppose I have found that in my own spiritual walk, I have required a great abundance of forgiveness, mercy, grace, patience and understanding, so I should not be surprised when others need the same. I still idealize people I admire into what I hope they are, instead of who they are, and I know disappointing it is when people I admire turn out to be human instead of ideal.

And I am very stubborn with my opinions too, and still struggle with understanding everyone else's perspective instead of convincing people of the rightness of my own. I can't imagine that one holds their opinons for any other reason than that they believe these opinions are right.

I honestly do not believe that Tracy wanted to come off as self-righteous or judging. I didn't "get" or agree with all of her points, but I trust that she did make them with a heart of goodness not a holier-than-thou attitude.





WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!! I am a GUY!

DarkestRose
04-16-2007, 02:07 PM
Oh my goodness, I am so sorry. That's kinda embarrassing. I can edit my post to change the gender things. Sorry.

DarkestRose
04-16-2007, 02:10 PM
It's changed now, except for what you quoted, Tracy. Again, I am sorry.

Voice of Truth
04-16-2007, 02:14 PM
Also, I will make my last response on this issue only this.


God does give us his Mercy and Grace. He does not tell us we are ok to do what we want and then fall back on his Mercy and Grace.

God is not a doormat.

As far as sharing my opinion with you, and thinking I am right. Yes I do think my opinion is right. Do you not think your opinion is right?

Does it make you self righteous and judgemental if I don't agree with your opinion? No,it does not, it makes us OPINIONATED. The thing that is important, is this; If we are wrong, are we willing to realize we are wrong.


In talking on here with some of you and also with my Pastor concerning this issue. I have realized, on a few different levels, I am wrong. I am right on fewer of my arguments than I was wrong on.


This is what I will try to do. I will try not to do things that can be a stumbling block for my brother.

I am broken, God is fixing me.


As far as a character trait, about having to always be right...you could not be more right. This again speaks to my issue with Pride. I apologize. God is working me though it.
That is not a cliche' it is the truth. Other poeple drink and smoke, I have to always be right...


My apologies to all.

God Bless.

Quadripedman
04-16-2007, 02:15 PM
oh wow a cuss. big whop. lol.

Voice of Truth
04-16-2007, 02:22 PM
Not a problem, I was once hired just based on my gender on the application. They left a message on my answering machine for me to show up on such and such a date. WHen I showed up they were like...uhh who are you....

I was fired a month later, for not completing the duties of a coworker..... She left work early and left em to close on a Sunday evening. I have never closed, so I did the best I could. :)

DarkestRose
04-16-2007, 02:25 PM
I struggle with wanting to be right all the time as well, so it’s not like I can judge or criticize. We can apparently just move on then, no use in holding on to the argument forever. Besides, I like ya, Tracy.

Voice of Truth
04-16-2007, 02:29 PM
Thanks, Ditto.

bob
04-30-2007, 10:10 PM
I was thinking earlier to day . . . God created each one of us to be unique, we can all agree on that. So why is it that some Christians think that everyone has to worship God in the same way? God created us so each of us could be different, not some mindless robots.

skynes
04-30-2007, 11:15 PM
God created us so each of us could be different, not some mindless robots.

You could apply that same argument to getting to heaven. why be a mindless robot and go through Christ? Why not be unique and follow your own path?

Singular Worship != automoton.

DarkestRose
04-30-2007, 11:18 PM
I was kinda thinking discussion on this thread was over. Or at least dead. We did pretty much all come together in harmony as of 4-16-07. I don't know if there is anything new to discuss. Is there? I'm sketchy on arguing for what seems to be the sake of it.

bob
05-01-2007, 04:50 AM
You could apply that same argument to getting to heaven. why be a mindless robot and go through Christ? Why not be unique and follow your own path?

Singular Worship != automoton.

Well, there is only one way to heaven. Christ does specifically say that.

skynes
05-01-2007, 07:00 AM
Well, there is only one way to heaven. Christ does specifically say that.


Christ also specifically said that God must be worshipped in Spirit and Truth :P

theelectric3
05-08-2007, 03:54 PM
WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!! I am a GUY!

yeah, it's a name fitting both genders...

and i'm late in the discussion with my thoughts pretty well spoken for already so i won't rehash anything.

mike - glad you posted that link. it's an eye opener for sure.

welcome to the real world of all in the name of an extra buck.