DarkestRose
05-06-2007, 04:36 PM
From a Christian standpoint, how should we as Christians respond to the occurrence of war?

On one hand, there is the Christian pacifists who argue that Jesus called us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers.” There was the moment when Jesus told Peter that all who live by the sword will die by the sword. And when the mob came to arrest Jesus, He didn’t resist them. And while the Bible says that there will always be wars and rumors of wars in the world, it also says that we’re supposed to be set apart from this world.

But on the other hand, several times in the Old Testament of the Bible, God called His people out to battle. If one believes in Catholicism at all, God called Saint Joan of Arc to battle. It was Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas who formulated the “just war” theory:


There must be a just cause for the war.
War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.
The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.
The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.
Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.
Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first.
There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.
The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.
The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.
Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.
Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

So which way is Biblically correct? Or is there an alternative way? How do these standards compare with the war in the Middle East?

alienyouth9292
05-06-2007, 04:49 PM
when it comes down to the matter, we gotta fight for our country and our people. God just doesn't want us to fight for no purpose....

I Bite
05-06-2007, 04:56 PM
Isn't there a verse in the Bible that says that Jesus came to bring war and not peace?

btw, i did look it up (www.biblegateway.com), but i still couldn't find it.

DarkestRose
05-06-2007, 05:13 PM
How do we know that God wants us to fight though? How do we know that we aren't polluting our faith with Right Wing politics?

alienyouth9292
05-06-2007, 05:30 PM
How do we know that God wants us to fight though? How do we know that we aren't polluting our faith with Right Wing politics?



right wing politics????

DarkestRose
05-06-2007, 05:32 PM
As in, the right wing is the political side that has been most traditionally in favor of the war in the Middle East. But how do we know that God is for the war? Or any war?

I wonder if we as Christians should support this war. Or if we should even support war at all.

Quadripedman
05-06-2007, 05:36 PM
we dont. thats the point...

i would have to say that i believe only in the use of war to spread peace (yes, i know that doenst make much sence)

aka, world war two...i dont think that the revenge inacted by bush against hussain was just. it was revenge because, (and i quote) "saddam said he'd kill my daddy".

DarkestRose
05-06-2007, 05:43 PM
And I have thought about World War II where there were people in concentration camps and I think the US needed to step in because what they were doing there wasn't just.

People under Saddam were in a bad situation as well though. He was horrible to the people under him and I do think that it is better that he's not leading them anymore. But are we there for revenge or to back Israel and the Iraqi people? Are we there for noble reasons?

Quadripedman
05-06-2007, 05:51 PM
i dont think that we are, but i usually lean democratic so...

alienyouth9292
05-06-2007, 06:09 PM
we went to iraq to build a democratic government, not to get "revenge"!

skynes
05-07-2007, 03:35 AM
Isn't there a verse in the Bible that says that Jesus came to bring war and not peace?

btw, i did look it up (www.biblegateway.com), but i still couldn't find it.

Matt 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

NightCrawler
05-07-2007, 09:39 AM
The only justification for war is when it is a necessary means for peace.

Christ's message will necessarily cause spiritual tension with evil, and that leads to political tension from the masses.

Jesus was also known as the prince of peace because He was a) not going to overthrow a government and b) because His followers would have spiritual peace and communion with God.

bob
05-07-2007, 10:48 AM
The only justification for war is when it is a necessary means for peace.


War is peace? :D

War is inevitable. It will always happen no matter what.

But we don't have to worry about war, it's illegal. Back in 1928 the Kellogg-Briand Pact was signed by sixty-two nations. War obviously ceased to exist after all the countries came to such a rational agreement.

The Lamma
05-07-2007, 11:15 AM
I don't exactly know my stance on this, other than that WWII was necessary. If we didn't fight back, who knows what the Nazis would have done...

NightCrawler
05-07-2007, 01:11 PM
War is peace? :D
You know that's not what I said.

War = sometimes the means to an end.
Peace = the end which justifies the means.

War is inevitable. It will always happen no matter what.
But we can make it less prevalent.

But we don't have to worry about war, it's illegal. Back in 1928 the Kellogg-Briand Pact was signed by sixty-two nations. War obviously ceased to exist after all the countries came to such a rational agreement.
Nice sarcasm.

theelectric3
05-08-2007, 04:04 PM
we dont. thats the point...

i would have to say that i believe only in the use of war to spread peace (yes, i know that doenst make much sence)

aka, world war two...i dont think that the revenge inacted by bush against hussain was just. it was revenge because, (and i quote) "saddam said he'd kill my daddy".

actually, he killed a lot of people's
"daddy/brother/sister/mother/spouse/cousin/child/friend..."

but that's besides the point.

of course war isn't good.

the world we live in today is not peaceful. so for us to stand by and not act in a world of nuclear weapons and such is foolish.

i'm a firm believer in military (perhaps because i am honored to have men in my family who have served this country).

and no, that does not mean i love war or want us to always fight others.

but when a nation (or religion... like islam) declares war... shouldn't we respond? yes. it'd be foolish to ignore it.

(and i know what i said is not politically correct...)

bob
05-08-2007, 07:20 PM
You know that's not what I said.


I was making a reference to a book. :P

Quadripedman
05-11-2007, 01:14 PM
actually, he killed a lot of people's
"daddy/brother/sister/mother/spouse/cousin/child/friend..."



clarification: i meant that out bush said that quote about "he said he was gonna kill my daddy" and THATS why we are in iraq. and honestly, how can you believe that this is actually about bringing democracy? there are plenty of countries that need more help than iraq! why it? oh yea, i forgot: it has a lot of OIL FIELDS!!!!!!!!

TheFireBreathes
05-11-2007, 04:39 PM
clarification: i meant that out bush said that quote about "he said he was gonna kill my daddy" and THATS why we are in iraq. and honestly, how can you believe that this is actually about bringing democracy? there are plenty of countries that need more help than iraq! why it? oh yea, i forgot: it has a lot of OIL FIELDS!!!!!!!!

look at our history in wars. the last few have been about spreading democracy. Maybe try watching the news where it shows Iraqis being able to vote because of our involvement.
the oil fields is just a bunch of propaganda. we never came over there for oil. gas prices were still normal even after we were in Iraq. so why would we have gone there for oil if we didn't know there was gonna be such a low supply?

Unless...the government threw away all of our oil on purpose so that we could invade iraq because bush is evil like that! Yeah! thats we did! man, even though i have no proof whatsoever im still gonna start a website on this!! Yeah!!


Not.

bob
05-11-2007, 05:28 PM
clarification: i meant that out bush said that quote about "he said he was gonna kill my daddy" and THATS why we are in iraq. and honestly, how can you believe that this is actually about bringing democracy? there are plenty of countries that need more help than iraq! why it? oh yea, i forgot: it has a lot of OIL FIELDS!!!!!!!!

Venezuala has more oil than Iraq, they hate us, we haven't invaded them. I'm tired of hearing people bash Bush for going in for just oil, I just find that argument to leave much to be desired.

Quadripedman
05-11-2007, 06:02 PM
i didnt say that it hasnt helped by us being over there.. i just think that spreading democracy was not the main goal. not trying to get into an arguement or anything...

bob
05-11-2007, 06:58 PM
not trying to get into an arguement or anything...

Here we call them discussions. ;)

i just think that spreading democracy was not the main goal.

Agreed. We went over there to take out Saddam Hussein and possibly discover if he had WMD's or not. Democracy is the reason we're staying there. We're the only reason that country isn't in complete chaos right now.

Anyway, we're skewing from the topic of discussing whether war is ethical.

theelectric3
05-11-2007, 07:20 PM
i disagree that it is all about oil. actually, we have technology to bypass oil for fuel altogether and i think that is the way to go. then we are no longer dependent on the middle east for fuel.

and you're right, this is off topic. i digress. let's move back.

is war the best solution?
no, it'd be nice to talk things out.

is war needful?
in many cases, yes.

so even though i do not prefer war, i do not believe it can be avoided altogether.

NightCrawler
05-12-2007, 09:32 AM
I agree completely, Tracy.

TheFireBreathes
05-12-2007, 10:37 AM
i know you all know this verse or know of it. it's probably the most popular verse among non-christians..but yeah, ill post it anyways.


Ecclesiastes 3
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

DarkestRose
05-12-2007, 04:16 PM
For awhile, I used to be leaning toward an anti-war, nonviolence, nonresistence form of pacifism because I felt like it went congruently with my ethics. The problem is though that it didn't because of instances like stepping in during WWII to help the Holocaust prisoners and in the Middle East freeing people from Saddam's reign. It's not compassionate to let people suffer in the name of peace. Helping those people was good. It's just that the means to get there was hard since it's paid in human life. And I'm sure even people who feel war is ethical when it's a just war hate the idea of killing. This has always been a tough topic for me.

Quadripedman
05-12-2007, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=theelectric3;343805]i disagree that it is all about oil. actually, we have technology to bypass oil for fuel altogether and i think that is the way to go. then we are no longer dependent on the middle east for fuel.
QUOTE]

true, true. i agree 100% that we should use alternate fuel sorces...but why dont we? because that would cost money AND all (or at least most or some) of the republicans running our dear country right now are in the back pockets of the oil tycoons.

agh! back on topic!

i have changed slightly from my view that all wars are wrong, mostly because of the Biblical references about God commanding His people to fight. war should be a last resort, only to be used if all diplomatic means are extinguished (im totally hypocritic to this view on civilitization IV, however...::] )

TheFireBreathes
05-13-2007, 12:34 PM
we may have a republican president, but the dems are actually in control. It's not just money, it also has to do with time. Can you imagine how long it would take to develop ALL cars with alternate fuel capabilities? it's not like it's going to happen in a few weeks. No, it'll take years.

sorry..on topic


christian response on war from gotquestions.org

Many people make the mistake of believing the Bible says, “You shall not kill,” and seek to apply this command to war. However, the Bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 21:15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but rather only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.

War is a terrible thing! War is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to: “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). See also Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Exodus 17:16 proclaims, “He said, "For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation." Also, 1 Samuel 15:18, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” So, obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jesus’ Second Coming also is exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 proclaims, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.”

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves? We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).

NightCrawler
05-14-2007, 08:54 AM
we may have a republican president, but the dems are actually in control.
Thus far, every attempt the democrats have made to get the war over by new funding plan (pull out dates) the Prez has immediately veto'd. The Prez is in control.

TheFireBreathes
05-14-2007, 04:50 PM
Thus far, every attempt the democrats have made to get the war over by new funding plan (pull out dates) the Prez has immediately veto'd. The Prez is in control.

Duh.
but from the past few elections, dems are in control of the Senate and House.

bob
05-14-2007, 06:30 PM
Duh.
but from the past few elections, dems are in control of the Senate and House.

I believe you're mistaken my friend. The republicans had control of congress from 1994-2006.