DarkestRose
05-17-2007, 04:07 AM
This has been such a gray area to me, but could smoking honestly be considered sinful? Itís not healthy at all, but neither is fast food or soda. Does unhealthiness make it sinful? I personally feel against using nicotine products, alcohol and drugs. But I was reading about how smoking cigarettes can less the hallucinatory symptoms of schizophrenia and Iíve wondered, would a hypothetical Christian with the disease be sinning if they used such a method as self-medication? The body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, so weíre supposed to honor it. Does self-medication in that form dishonor it?

NightCrawler
05-17-2007, 06:35 AM
It is not wise. God calls for wisdom. Does that mean foolishness is necessarily sinful?

Meanwhile, I don't think smoking is sinful.

skynes
05-17-2007, 08:18 AM
It depends how you look at it.

In the sense that you are smoking nicotine, no, it is not sinful.

In the sense that you are addicted to something, it could be called sin, but not because it's smoking. In the same way too much food is sin, or too much TV, or too many games are sin, because they become idolatry.

Smoking on its own is not sin.

Idolatry toward smoking is.

alienyouth9292
05-17-2007, 11:42 AM
my grandma is addicted to cigarettes......do i think that she is sinning every time she lights up? no. but i do believe that God wants us to honor our bodies that he thought out and created...

The Lamma
05-17-2007, 11:48 AM
Yeah, when addictions get in the way of God, that is BAD. Also, like you said, our bodies are God's temple, and we are to take care of our temple. Smoking is like taking a sludge hammer to the pillars, while possibly fixing an inner rug. I wouldn't suggest it, especially if there was something else out there for schizophrenia.

skynes
05-17-2007, 01:00 PM
I wouldn't suggest it, especially if there was something else out there for schizophrenia.

Like spiritual deliverance?

LOL. Someone had to crack them can of worms... lol

somasoul
05-17-2007, 04:26 PM
Two words.


Camel Lights.

The Lamma
05-17-2007, 05:43 PM
Camel lights? And if someone was a Christian, why would the Lord allow evil schizophrenia?

somasoul
05-17-2007, 06:19 PM
Camel lights? And if someone was a Christian, why would the Lord allow evil schizophrenia?

Well, I believe that God created the world and created the parameters that the world operates in. If someone falls to his death, did God "allow" the fall to happen? I believe God created gravity and it's a piece of his world. He doesn't stop his creation from failing to operate.........

Okay, let's say Bill Gates is God. People use Microsoft programs to commit Fraud just like people use God's sexual desire to create adultery. Bill Gates doesn't scrap his program just because people use it incorrectly nor does God scrap his creation just because people do weird stuff.

The Lamma
05-17-2007, 06:38 PM
There is a reason why I said evil schizophrenia. If you are a born again Christian, you aren't supposed to sin. But if your other schizophrenic side is evil, how are you supposed to avoid sin?

NightCrawler
05-17-2007, 11:39 PM
There is a reason why I said evil schizophrenia. If you are a born again Christian, you aren't supposed to sin. But if your other schizophrenic side is evil, how are you supposed to avoid sin?
You don't know what schizophrenia is, do you?

I think you mean more like... DID -- Dissociative Identity Disorder. (previously termed "multiple personality disorder").

Schizophrenia has more to do with hallucinations (seeing things or hearing things), jumbled/disconnected thinking, and similar.

DarkestRose
05-18-2007, 02:50 AM
Jonathan is right, Lamma. The concept of schizophrenia being a split/multiple personality disorder is a misconception, but apparently a widespread one.

And as Jonathan said, the symptoms are:
more to do with hallucinations (seeing things or hearing things), jumbled/disconnected thinking, and similar. If you saw the movie A Beautiful Mind there is a very good portrayal with the lead character.

I've read that something like 80 to 90 percent of people with schizophrenia smoke cigarettes, which is about three times more than the general population. And they're often heavy smokers who smoke high-tar cigarettes. People with schizophrenia who smoke also tend to have more severe symptoms. I guess they do is as self-medication because smoking lessens the symptoms of schizophrenia. It help them with cognitive tasks and calms them down. But apparently people with schizophrenia (most which who smoke) who have a lower lung cancer rate than the general population, which is interesting. However, many still die of pneumonia, which could correlate to smoking, also cardiovascular and respiratory disease. Smoking seems to decrease the effectiveness of antipsychotic medication, so people with schizophrenia need larger doses. In people with schizophrenia, smoking also increases the risk of tardive dyskinesia, which is a disorder in which the person has “repetitive, involuntary, purposeless movements. Features of the disorder may include grimacing, tongue protrusion, lip smacking, puckering and pursing of the lips, and rapid eye blinking.” (Got that from Wikipedia :))

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 07:36 AM
Jonathan is right, Lamma. The concept of schizophrenia being a split/multiple personality disorder is a misconception, but apparently a widespread one.

Like you just said, its a widespread misconception. :P I know that there is something else with multiple personality thingies. But, hallucinations do create a second personality in some way. Anyway, is there such thing as a cure for schizophrenia?

Tromos
05-18-2007, 08:54 AM
Okay, let's say Bill Gates is God.

Then at this point, I skip right past the cigarettes and head straight for the booze.

skynes
05-18-2007, 09:27 AM
But, hallucinations do create a second personality in some way.

No. Seeing things and having a second personality cannot be further different.

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 10:17 AM
I mean that you brain creates a 'personality' for the person you are hallucinating.

NightCrawler
05-18-2007, 10:22 AM
Like you just said, its a widespread misconception. :P I know that there is something else with multiple personality thingies. But, hallucinations do create a second personality in some way. Anyway, is there such thing as a cure for schizophrenia?
Lithium is _a_ treatment for it. Doesn't work for everyone. Here is a treatment treatise on a treatment site. What a treat!

Initial drug treatment should include use of one of the atypical antipsychotic medications--such as olanzapine (Zyprexa), quetiapine (Seroquel), risperidone (Risperdal), or aripiprazole (Abilify). If no response is seen within 3 to 4 weeks, then addition of a second atypical antipsychotic is warranted. If no response is evident while on two atypical antipsychotics, then addition of a third atypical can be tried. If schizophrenic symptoms are still present after trying three atypical antipsychotics, a typical antipsychotic medication--for instance, chlorpromazine, fluphenazine, and haloperidol--should be initiated. Clozapine (Clozaril), an atypical antipsychotic, is usually left as a last-line therapy because of its potential for serious side effects.

http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/HC/Treatment/0,4047,550146,00.html

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 10:32 AM
No clue what those drugs are...Lol.

NightCrawler
05-18-2007, 10:34 AM
No clue what those drugs are...Lol.
Simply put, they don't cure it. They just reduce symptoms.

The Lamma
05-18-2007, 10:36 AM
Ok. There isn't a cure for everything in the world... If there was, though, drug side affects would just make more problems. ;D

DarkestRose
05-18-2007, 01:44 PM
It's like diabetes and insulin, where the symptoms are controlled but just because they are controlled doesn't mean you stop taking the medicine. You have to keep taking it.

earthfiregurl
05-18-2007, 05:17 PM
Im acually going way back up to the top, but i believe that smoking can be sinful because, God said that harming your body is sunful. Smoking is bad for your body, so wouldn't that make it sinful?

NightCrawler
05-18-2007, 05:28 PM
God said that harming your body is sunful.
Where?

somasoul
05-18-2007, 06:08 PM
Im acually going way back up to the top, but i believe that smoking can be sinful because, God said that harming your body is sunful. Smoking is bad for your body, so wouldn't that make it sinful?

Is skateboarding sinful? Or Taco Bell? Of Entenmann's crumb top doughnuts?

Heck no!

DarkestRose
05-19-2007, 03:25 AM
Well, supposing that Christians should as a general belief avoid nicotine products, does that concept change in the usage of self-medication.

For instance, marijuana is a substance that we don't use. Does it change when someone with, say, cancer uses it for medication. Is that harming your body? Or helping it? Or does this "smoking is bad" "drugs are bad" concept mean that it is wrong in any case.

skynes
05-19-2007, 06:04 AM
When I go out into the sunlight, I am exposing my body to radiation. This radiation is harmful.

Ergo: Walking out in daylight is sin.

aliengurl7
05-19-2007, 04:06 PM
Is skateboarding sinful? Or Taco Bell? Of Entenmann's crumb top doughnuts?

Heck no!

Chowing down on taco bell tacos or sweets from time to time won't harm you it's when people eat it "often" that it causes health problems like obesity and etc. But with cigarettes it doesn't matter If you smoke a few a day or a whole pack you still do harm to your lungs and risk having severe health problems.
.

Tromos
05-19-2007, 05:14 PM
Of Entenmann's crumb top doughnuts?

You might have crossed the line with that one.

unshakeable15
05-20-2007, 07:02 PM
I mean that you brain creates a 'personality' for the person you are hallucinating.
Who says? It could be your own thoughts projected into a "voice" or your own visualization of an archtype projected into a "person", neither of which actually be there. It doesn't create another personality (from how i understand it); it simply projects aspects of your own.

Here's a question: did those old-time astronomers who stared at the Sun for scientific purposes sin? It caused them to go blind, after all. Or, even better, John Milton, author of Paradise Lost, the only Christian epic poem, was blind by the time he got around to writing this poem he had wanted to for most of his life. He attributed his blindness to late-nights staying up reading by candlelight. Was this a sin? It was evidently harmful to his body.

DarkestRose
05-21-2007, 08:47 AM
I've always wondered if the hallucinations of psychosis were not unlike dreaming. As in: your brain is tell you this story through your senses, your thinking and your feelings. It all seems real and you accept it as such, and you cannot control what is happening. Things simply unfold.

unshakeable15
05-22-2007, 02:44 PM
That's probably as analogous as you can get. It's not a separate personality residing within you, it's just your imagination playing out scenarios and creating characters to dwell therein.

theelectric3
05-22-2007, 07:26 PM
have you ever looked at what they actually put in cigarettes? it's disgusting.

bob
05-22-2007, 07:32 PM
have you ever looked at what they actually put in cigarettes? it's disgusting.

The List
Acetanisole
Acetic Acid
Acetoin
Acetophenone
6-Acetoxydihydrotheaspirane
2-Acetyl-3- Ethylpyrazine
2-Acetyl-5-Methylfuran
Acetylpyrazine
2-Acetylpyridine
3-Acetylpyridine
2-Acetylthiazole
Aconitic Acid
dl-Alanine
Alfalfa Extract
Allspice Extract,Oleoresin, and Oil
Allyl Hexanoate
Allyl Ionone
Almond Bitter Oil
Ambergris Tincture
Ammonia
Ammonium Bicarbonate
Ammonium Hydroxide
Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic
Ammonium Sulfide
Amyl Alcohol
Amyl Butyrate
Amyl Formate
Amyl Octanoate
alpha-Amylcinnamaldehyde
Amyris Oil
trans-Anethole
Angelica Root Extract, Oil and Seed Oil
Anise
Anise Star, Extract and Oils
Anisyl Acetate
Anisyl Alcohol
Anisyl Formate
Anisyl Phenylacetate
Apple Juice Concentrate, Extract, and Skins
Apricot Extract and Juice Concentrate
1-Arginine
Asafetida Fluid Extract And Oil
Ascorbic Acid
1-Asparagine Monohydrate
1-Aspartic Acid
Balsam Peru and Oil
Basil Oil
Bay Leaf, Oil and Sweet Oil
Beeswax White
Beet Juice Concentrate
Benzaldehyde
Benzaldehyde Glyceryl Acetal
Benzoic Acid, Benzoin
Benzoin Resin
Benzophenone
Benzyl Alcohol
Benzyl Benzoate
Benzyl Butyrate
Benzyl Cinnamate
Benzyl Propionate
Benzyl Salicylate
Bergamot Oil
Bisabolene
Black Currant Buds Absolute
Borneol
Bornyl Acetate
Buchu Leaf Oil
1,3-Butanediol
2,3-Butanedione
1-Butanol
2-Butanone
4(2-Butenylidene)-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One
Butter, Butter Esters, and Butter Oil
Butyl Acetate
Butyl Butyrate
Butyl Butyryl Lactate
Butyl Isovalerate
Butyl Phenylacetate
Butyl Undecylenate
3-Butylidenephthalide
Butyric Acid]
Cadinene
Caffeine
Calcium Carbonate
Camphene
Cananga Oil
Capsicum Oleoresin
Caramel Color
Caraway Oil
Carbon Dioxide
Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder
Carob Bean and Extract
beta-Carotene
Carrot Oil
Carvacrol
4-Carvomenthenol
1-Carvone
beta-Caryophyllene
beta-Caryophyllene Oxide
Cascarilla Oil and Bark Extract
Cassia Bark Oil
Cassie Absolute and Oil
Castoreum Extract, Tincture and Absolute
Cedar Leaf Oil
Cedarwood Oil Terpenes and Virginiana
Cedrol
Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin
Cellulose Fiber
Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract
Chicory Extract
Chocolate
Cinnamaldehyde
Cinnamic Acid
Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract
Cinnamyl Acetate
Cinnamyl Alcohol
Cinnamyl Cinnamate
Cinnamyl Isovalerate
Cinnamyl Propionate
Citral
Citric Acid
Citronella Oil
dl-Citronellol
Citronellyl Butyrate
itronellyl Isobutyrate
Civet Absolute
Clary Oil
Clover Tops, Red Solid Extract
Cocoa
Cocoa Shells, Extract, Distillate And Powder
Coconut Oil
Coffee
Cognac White and Green Oil
Copaiba Oil
Coriander Extract and Oil
Corn Oil
Corn Silk
Costus Root Oil
Cubeb Oil
Cuminaldehyde
para-Cymene
1-Cysteine


Yummy. :lick:

::]

Why anyone would want to inhale all that is beyond me.

By the way, that was only a third of the list. The full list can be viewed here. (http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cigingredients.htm)

DarkestRose
05-22-2007, 07:33 PM
Yes, it is gross and it smells gross, which, besides health reasons, is why I don't smoke.

But I wonder more of the ethics of it than the ick-factor.

theelectric3
05-22-2007, 07:43 PM
yeah, i see. i know it's already been stated here, but knowing what's in it and putting it in our bodies (God's temple) defiles it.

God's very presence lives in us and sometimes i wonder if we (i know me for sure)would really stop and think - would we would still do all we do if we remembered that He is in us. watching. wanting us to walk in His fulness and love and not in the lies of this world.

including something as simple as a cigarette.

DarkestRose
05-22-2007, 07:48 PM
True.

But about in the case of self-medication? Does that make a difference? That's my second question.

bob
05-22-2007, 07:50 PM
There's plenty of other ways to relieve stress.

DarkestRose
05-22-2007, 07:52 PM
True, but like I said, with some people, like people with schizophrenia, it also lessens their symptoms. It doesn't just calm them down.

bob
05-22-2007, 07:52 PM
Doesn't medication do the same thing?

DarkestRose
05-22-2007, 08:02 PM
It does but people with mental illnesses like schizophrenia often have a habit of noncompliance with medication for various reasons. Or they don't like the side effects of the medication and smoking helps against those too.

theelectric3
05-22-2007, 09:26 PM
would you happen to have the source that says smoking helps?

i wonder if it is like those ads on tv for medicine.

ex. this pill will bring relief to allergies!
side effects: heart problems and nausea are common in those tested with this.

so the question becomes - is it better to find a more natural alternative? or deal with the allergies vs. the side effects that are often worse?


i know that is a poor analogy considering you are talking about mental health. i know in cases of depression (not sure about schizophrenia) a change of diet and exercise (getting out in the sun and fresh air) really helps.

DarkestRose
05-22-2007, 09:56 PM
Most of what I've read on the issue comes from books like Surviving Schizophrenia by Dr. E. Fuller Torrey and a few others. The only reason books mention it isn't because they are trying to advocate smoking [they don't] but because 80-90 percent of people with schizophrenia smoke and researchers want to know why, and self-medication is a theory.

There probably are other ways to feel better. And a lot of books about schizophrenia advise quitting smoking. Healthy living makes coping with mental illness more manageable. I think the problem is that antipsychotic medicine has some nasty side effects and so they need medication for the side effects, and having to be on those meds forever is more than a little bit of a bummer. I don't know what a change of diet would do. There are theories about nutrients and schizophrenia, but I don't think they've been affirmed for veracity yet. But pretty much everyone feels better when they eat healthy, exercise and get enough sleep. I don't see why it would be different for the mentally ill.

earthfiregurl
05-27-2007, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by earthfiregurl, Im acually going way back up to the top, but i believe that smoking can be sinful because, God said that harming your body is sunful. Smoking is bad for your body, so wouldn't that make it sinful?

Is skateboarding sinful? Or Taco Bell? Of Entenmann's crumb top doughnuts?

Heck no!
-----------------------------------------
OK, skateboarding, Taco Bell, and, those doughnut things you said, could be harmful to your body. But the affect doesn't stay with you for life! HA!

DarkestRose
05-27-2007, 06:10 PM
Actually, certain fast foods, sodas, and junk food can stick with you for life, causing heart problems, obesity, diabetes, and a number of other things. Certain skateboarding accidents can permanetly injure a person. Being in the sun too long without sunscreen can cause skin cancer.

The verse you are thinking of (in 1 Corinthians, chapter 6)is actually referring to sexual immorality:

18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

I had that verse misunderstood in the beginning of the thread. So it's probably my fault that we're discussing it out of context.

If we are going to discuss harming one's body as sinful, we're going to need an actual quoted Bible verse.

bob
05-27-2007, 08:11 PM
If we are going to discuss harming one's body as sinful, we're going to need an actual quoted Bible verse.

I would think common sense would be enough. ::]

DarkestRose
05-27-2007, 08:14 PM
It's common sense that it isn't healthy and that it should be avoided for that reason.

But we haven't uncovered anything to that it is sinful.

And just because something is permissible does not mean it is beneficial.

bob
05-27-2007, 08:27 PM
Well, gluttony is sinful and I'd be willing to bet that that is the number one sin that Christians are guilty off. :)

I have yet to find a verse that would point out smoking as a sin. Again, I just lean towards the common sense thing.

DarkestRose
05-27-2007, 08:30 PM
If we go by gluttony, however, it would be nicotine addiction that would be a sin, not smoking in and of itself.

bob
05-27-2007, 08:36 PM
Well yes, an addiction could be viewed as a god.