somasoul
05-27-2007, 10:39 AM
In the Gay Rights thread AlienYouth posted: "believing in Jesus Christ and wanting to turn away from your sin makes you a Christian.?"

Is this is basic tenet of a Christianity? To pray the prayer and "get saved" and try not to sin anymore?

Or is a Christian something else?

If you can define a Christian in a sentence or two, please do.

NightCrawler
05-27-2007, 11:08 AM
Romans 10:9-10 [NIV]
[9]That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10]For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 3:22-24 [NIV]
[22]This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, [23]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24]and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

A Christian is someone who has been washed by the atoning blood of Christ (according to God's grace) and has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him (according to God's grace). This atonement is rooted in the faith in Jesus Christ, to whom we confess our sins and are washed. The Holy Spirit is a necessary gift given by God to counsel Christians and do the work of God.

DarkestRose
05-27-2007, 12:08 PM
Tim, I think you may have understood what Jesse said outside of its context.

What Jesse said was, praying doesn't make you a Christian. believing in Jesus Christ and wanting to turn away from your sin(or homosexuality)makes you a Christian

And then, you, Tim, replied saying, Really?

It is true that there is the moment when a Christians confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and do so through prayer.

But I believe what Jesse was talking about was more of the concept of doing religious things is not enough to be saved, e.g. we don't say that we are Christians because we read the Bible, go to church on Sunday, or ____(insert good deed here). I think he meant that, when it came to homosexuality, yes, it's a sin; yes, a Christian can struggle with a sin including homosexuality; but no, doing good works does not make a sin (like homosexuality) any less of a sin and saying, "Well I do such and such" does not mean that one is right with the Lord if they still have areas of compromise that they refuse to be repentant over.

skynes
05-27-2007, 02:22 PM
I had thought he meant:

An evidence of a true believer in Christ is that they hate their sin and want it to be removed.

alienyouth9292
05-27-2007, 03:40 PM
i believe that a christian is someone who asks Jesus Christ to help get rid of his or her sins. You also need to have a personal relationship with Christ (aka praying, reading scripture, etc.).....

thanks for explaining my quote, Jennifer:)

DarkestRose
05-27-2007, 04:18 PM
I had thought he meant:

An evidence of a true believer in Christ is that they hate their sin and want it to be removed.

The way Tim quoted it, yes that's what he meant.

somasoul
05-27-2007, 05:46 PM
i believe that a christian is someone who asks Jesus Christ to help get rid of his or her sins. You also need to have a personal relationship with Christ (aka praying, reading scripture, etc.).....

I'm not picking on you, you're just the one that says it. It seems common that this is what most Christians think makes one a Christian.

When I look at Jesus, I don't see this at all. Turning from your sins as the key ingredient??? I dunno. I see a Jesus who spent a lot of time loving people. Eating with people. Telling people about the good news. Leaving anything that could be selfishness behind. Sin is a part of it, but I think a lesser part than we make it out to be.

alienyouth9292
05-27-2007, 05:55 PM
so what is the "key ingredient" for u?

DarkestRose
05-27-2007, 06:07 PM
The penalty for sin is death. There is no mistaking that when we are marred by sin, we fall short of the glory of God. Without meeting the standard of God—which is holiness—we cannot see God and we die. God will not lower His standards of holiness and because we all sin, that standard demands justice. So there is no misunderstanding, sin is a big deal. Sin always involved a lack of loving God and/or loving others.

The point of Jesus Christ coming was not to say that sin is no big deal. Jesus Christ’s mission was to satisfy the justice our sins demanded on the cross and, at the same time, pour God’s forgiveness, mercy and grace over us. The cross was were justice and mercy met. That is the Good News that was preached through the Gospel and through the Epistles. It was for this that John the Baptist called men to repentance.

It is absolutely true that Jesus taught us to love our neighbors, to reach out to sinners and those who fall through the cracks, to give to the poor, to help the needy. Christians should do these things with as much fervor as they do in repenting of their sins. But living a life of righteousness, holiness and purity is not apart from living a life of love, compassion and friendship toward others. They are one and the same.

aliengurl7
05-27-2007, 06:21 PM
I'm not picking on you, you're just the one that says it. It seems common that this is what most Christians think makes one a Christian.

When I look at Jesus, I don't see this at all. Turning from your sins as the key ingredient??? I dunno. I see a Jesus who spent a lot of time loving people. Eating with people. Telling people about the good news. Leaving anything that could be selfishness behind. Sin is a part of it, but I think a lesser part than we make it out to be.

Sin is a big part of it and that's why He came because of our sinful nature. But I see your point that most Christians concentrate too much on the sinful part and forget to love as Jesus did.

A christian is someone who reconizes they are a sinner and are in need of the savior and puts there hope and trust in him.

DarkestRose
05-27-2007, 06:52 PM
I see your point that most Christians concentrate too much on the sinful part and forget to love as Jesus did.

That is true. Christians shouldn't exist as hypocritical, judgmental, legalistic people.

Nor should they be wishy-washy, politically-correct I-don't-make-waves people that shrug off sin for the sake of being nice.

I think the best thing to do is act in love and mercy, while still upholding our convictions in righteousness.

alienyouth9292
05-27-2007, 06:57 PM
i hope that i am not coming off as one of those^^ people....but a true christian will want to shed themselves of there sin- and we should also love as jesus did....

DarkestRose
05-27-2007, 07:10 PM
I'm not labeling anyone as anything. Those are examples of too extremes that Christians sometimes take. I am not labeling anyone here as any of those things. I myself fit both of those extremes at times.

bob
05-27-2007, 08:19 PM
A Christian for me is defined in Luke 9:23 when Jesus said:

"If you want to follow me you need to deny yourself daily, pick up your cross, and follow me."

That also happens to be my favorite verse.

Somasoul, when Jesus saved the women caught in the act of adultry from being stoned he told her Go and sin no more (John 8:11). After he made the lame man walk he told him Go and sin no more. (John 5:14) So yes, you're correct, he hung out with sinners and the "scum" of the day. But he also told them straight forward that they should not sin.

unshakeable15
05-31-2007, 02:29 PM
It is true that there is the moment when a Christians confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and do so through prayer.
Really?

;)

Is there a "moment" through "prayer" where one comes to be marked as a Christian? Can it happen through something more gradual?

When C.S. Lewis told the story of his conversion in his autobiography Surprised by Joy, he told a story of a ride he took in the sidecar of his brother Warnie's motorcycle. At the outset of the ride, he was not a Christian; by the time they reached their destination, he was a follower of the living God. He cannot mark a single place on that journey where he decided "I'm going to follow Jesus now!" but he nonetheless decided.

DarkestRose
05-31-2007, 02:33 PM
I think it could be gradual. I was more or less referring to that most people make the commitment through prayer. I did that, but it was still a gradual process of God taking control of my life.

But like Jonathan quoted toward the top of the thread.

[9]That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10]For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Romans 10:9-10 [NIV]

And I that could be through prayer, but I wouldn't limit it.

Quadripedman
06-05-2007, 08:41 PM
well, i personally consitered the point when i was really a Christian was when i gave my life to Christ and was saved, but other people just say that they are if they go to a Christian church, and i dont think that that is correct. in my openion, when someone becomes a Christian, is when they are saved, and give their life to Christ.

but just like Romans 10:9-10 says, "9...If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

so, (in my openion) saying that Jesus is lord, and believing with your heart the He rose from the dead makes you a Christian.

just some ignorant thirteen year-old's humble openion ::]

skynes
06-07-2007, 06:48 AM
In further adding to confessing with your mouth:

Romans 8:9 "...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. "

Confession + Holy Spirit = Christian.

theelectric3
06-07-2007, 04:35 PM
just to add my $0.02 to this conversation.

a Christian is a child of God.
(not a servant or slave... a child. it is vital for us, who claim to be His children, to know what that means.... and walk in it. because that is Christianity.)

have you ever gotten to know someone who was just like their father/mother? be it good or bad, you could tell by the way he/she carried his/her self or by the way they talked and treated others?

they will know we are Christians by our love.
the world will know we are God's children by our love.
the world will know we are God's own children by how much we are like our Father.

God = Love.
(1 John 4:7-16)

abide in Love and we abide in God.
because God IS Love.
(Agape)

somasoul
06-08-2007, 02:39 PM
just to add my $0.02 to this conversation.

a Christian is a child of God.
(not a servant or slave... a child. it is vital for us, who claim to be His children, to know what that means.... and walk in it. because that is Christianity.)

The book of Romans says we are slaves of God.

What does a Christian look like?

DarkestRose
06-08-2007, 05:11 PM
Colossians 3:12-14 says, “Since God chose you to be the holy people he loves, you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. Make allowance for each other’s faults, and forgive anyone who offends you. Remember, the Lord forgave you, so you must forgive others. Above all, clothe yourselves with love, which binds us all together in perfect harmony.”

In acknowledging the Fruits of the Spirit we should be noted for love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Christians are called to live righteous, holy, pure lives because Christ set us free from sin so that we don't have to abide by its laws.

And I think people should find hope, healing, compassion, and justice in Christians. So they shouldn't fear that we are going to judge them or overburden them. But they shouldn't have the idea that we are going to be dismissive sin. Rather, we should act in truth and love; justice and mercy.

stillaiming
06-10-2007, 01:48 PM
not to dwell on details... but I beleive there IS a specific point at which salvation takes place

it is when, as the veil was rent when Jesus died and the barrier between the inner court and holy of holies was opened up....

as immediate and literal as that event was .... so is the immediacy and split second timing of the occurence of our salvation

this is a symbol of the completeness we have access to through Jesus ...

our high preist seated in the holy of holies or our spirit...

when jesus is given his rightful place in our lives

and we invite him to come and dwell in the "mercy seat" God created in us for him....aka our spirit

we have been..... sealed by the holy spirit of promise until the day of redemption


Now whether we experience this occurence as a lightning bolts feeling ....tingling and all that... or if it is a slow and gradual knowing that comes over time as a revelation of who christ is and what he did and where he now resides... is very individual.....

what will not save you and for which there is no biblical standard or example is reciting a "sinner's prayer" ... salvation is very personal and the true surety that God desires us to have in that salvation is hard to come by.....

somasoul
06-10-2007, 03:24 PM
I believe that to be saved all you have to do is confess with your lips and believe Jesus is Lord.

But I think a Christian is a lot more than that.

When I look at Jesus as the grand example I don't see someone who simply "believed". He gave to the poor, taught the rich, edified his community, etc, etc.

To me, that's a Christian. Belief to me is becoming more and more of a copout.

DarkestRose
06-10-2007, 03:38 PM
I agree with you, Tim.

By the way, Tim, have you taken the MBTI test? (For another thread, however.)

stillaiming
06-10-2007, 04:26 PM
well.... in my opinion.....

belief is the foundation by which salvation is based...


beleive and you will be saved...

we have as triune beings serving a triune god ,,,, triune salvation


Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Justification is what seals you by the holy spirit of promise until the day of redemption

Sanctification is what happens when you obey and follow and put actions to what Jesus has done and commands

Glorification is what happens when you die as a saved person

Christian???? what is that anyway.... it is not in the bible

I prefer to say are you saved or do you know Jesus

Not do you know of him or who he is but do you know HIM

Is your name written in the lambs book of life..

I could care less whether you perceive my behavior as loveing acceptable and righteous .... what counts is do you know him.....

the question posed in scripture to test this is

Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh

Does the flesh of Christ dwell in you


if.... without hesitation and fullness of faith and knowledge you answer yes...

you are saved and you are my brother in christ....

now.... whether you bear fruit or commit loving acts of kindness is another matter

actions are fruit deeds or works are dead... no matter how well intended and are explicitly stated as such in scripture without the saving knowledge of Christ

Quadripedman
06-10-2007, 05:01 PM
hmm, not to critize (im horrible at spelling..), but it would be nice, stillaiming, if you made your posts less...eh, choppy, and more flowing. it would just make them easier to read. i might be the only one that thinks this but, whatever.

just a friendly suggestion ;D

DarkestRose
06-10-2007, 05:15 PM
I don't think Tim is saying that good deeds make a person a Christian. I think he is stating a frustration with people who are Christian by belief, but their actions do not show the fruit of that belief.

skilletfreak101
06-10-2007, 06:35 PM
my pastor said something cool today. he said that "being a christian" basically means submitting to God in every area of your life. i don't know...thats pretty obvious i guess...but it hit me pretty hard when he said that

skynes
06-10-2007, 10:27 PM
he said that "being a christian" basically means submitting to God in every area of your life.

If this is true no member of this boards is a Christian, because that's an impossibility while we still have sinful flesh.

lamb_servant72
06-11-2007, 01:28 AM
First of all, I like the "choppy" set up, it helps me pause and think...I know, I know, ENFP...we're just wired differently Quad.:)





Now whether we experience this occurence as a lightning bolts feeling ....tingling and all that... or if it is a slow and gradual knowing that comes over time as a revelation of who christ is and what he did and where he now resides... is very individual.....



In this quote you are referring to salvation, but can this also be true for sanctification? I've heard people say they were instantly sanctified, and I've heard others say it is always a lifelong process.

skynes
06-11-2007, 02:39 AM
Christian? what is that anyway.... it is not in the bible


Yes it is.

Acts 26:18 "Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian." "

1 Peter 4:16 "Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
"

And for the finale

Acts 11:26 "...And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. "

stillaiming
06-11-2007, 01:27 PM
dont know how to bring in the quotes yet....

but...


how is this for choppy...



lol ;o}

sorry .. i write like i speak so i build in pauses... and emphasis ...with my style... what is choppy to you is fluid to me.... and what you call flowing is sometimes hard to follow for me. and i have to read and rearead to get the full understanding......... i guess i am a leg muscle and you are a ear bone..... lol.... no (inference,,, body parts chosen at randon)....


thanks for the correction on use of Christian in the bible.....

i just do not like the over use of labels....

Keith Green put it best.... going to church.... (and doing good deeds for that matter) don't make you a christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger

also have heard it put church christian,, garage car

any who...

it is my opinion that labelling "christian" is too much of the times a false security.....

to borrow from a book i like to read.....

rejoice not that you "call" yourself or others refer to you as "christian"........rather ........REJOICE that YOUR NAME IS WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE......

whather you define that ....or others think..... you are, or are not christian... is mental rhetoric..... I rejoice that I know the God who created the universe and he knows my name and sings over me with rejoicing (Zeph 3:17)

It is that calmness and peace that surpasses all understanding.... the Love you show..... that will draw people to desire a relationship with the same god u know......

the world is full of "good" people who do lots of "good" things.......


thanks for the encouragement Lamb... i really appreciate it

skilletfreak101
06-11-2007, 03:09 PM
If this is true no member of this boards is a Christian, because that's an impossibility while we still have sinful flesh.
well of course...but that's basically what a "christian" should strive for.

DarkestRose
06-11-2007, 03:22 PM
So it's not the act of being completely submitted but the goal and striving toward it, that you/your pastor mean?

skilletfreak101
06-12-2007, 08:21 AM
So it's not the act of being completely submitted but the goal and striving toward it, that you/your pastor mean?
well it's obvious that we can't do it ourselves...that's the whole point of Jesus giving us life...but then after Jesus gives us life...we should want to submit to God...and if we screw up, which of course we will, His forgiveness is there.

somasoul
06-12-2007, 06:16 PM
*This is gonna be long*

I don't think Tim is saying that good deeds make a person a Christian. I think he is stating a frustration with people who are Christian by belief, but their actions do not show the fruit of that belief.

I'm having a hard time explaining it. My wife sometimes says "That person is a Christian Christian" to bring to light that here is a person who lives the Gospel.

Picture this. On the cross a thief believed in Jesus' divinity. He was promised, through grace, eternal life. Was he a Christian? I think "well, yeah, he was a Christian" in some sense. And belief might get you saved. It might get you into the doors of heaven. Then again.......

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’”

In other places, belief requires action. There are those who turn their lives around, they believe, in some fasion Christ makes them better people; but they never become Christ and make other people's lives better.

Jesus tells us: "Sell all your stuff and follow me". "Give to the poor". "Forgive as you have forgiven". "Turn the other cheek". The list goes on and on and on and on and on.

Many Christians hide away in rural places, safe places, to avoid sin. But Christ conquered sin. Forget sin. It's done. Over. I've walked from as best I can. I'll continue to try. But if my fear of sin prohibits me from living the Gospel then what have I gained? More importantly, what have given?

Dear Jesus,

Thanks for dying on the cross for my sins. I have no idea what this truely means. It's bigger than anything I can imagine. I could never have taken sin on. It would have, and will, destroy me.

Sin will no longer be the focus of my life. You have conquered it. I will try to follow you as best I can. I will try to help people as best I can. Everyone I come in touch with, I will make some attempt to make their day better. I'll **** it up, I know. But I'm not scared of that, ashamed, but not scared.

Gang bangers, fast food employees, hoodlums, celebrities, prostitutes, and bankers do not frighten me. I am not afraid to live your gospel in their presence. I have a little bit of a greed problem. I own way too much. Actually, it owns me. It prevents me from preaching and living your gospel in too many ways.

Lastly, send me people that make me uncomfortable that need help. You had a bunch of lepers, prostitutes, religious nutbags, revolutionaries, shady women, thieves, etc, etc. It musta been weird. Pretty cool that you hung with them. And you didn't just preach to 'em and jet, you lived with 'em, ate with 'em, fed 'em, clothed 'em. No wonder they believed you when you said you had the power to forgive sins.

Thanks again, Jesus.

DarkestRose
06-12-2007, 08:01 PM
^I like that, Tim.

P.S. Still gonna annoy you about the MBTI. Are you an ENTP?

unshakeable15
06-13-2007, 01:03 PM
In this quote you are referring to salvation, but can this also be true for sanctification? I've heard people say they were instantly sanctified, and I've heard others say it is always a lifelong process.
It could be both. Think of it like this: when the apostles wrote of salvation, they used it various ways, specifically as a past, present and future.

Past: We have been saved by grace through repentence.
Present: We are continually being saved by grace through daily renewal of the Spirit and denial of the flesh.
Future: We will be saved on the Day of Salvation when the Kindgom of Heaven is brought to Earth.

As for the word "Christian" being used in the Bible (as Scott pointed out), i think the first reference is a good indicator of how we should define it. But then, that leads to an entirely different definition. "The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." So, it was the disciples who were called Christians.

Therefore, to be truly a Christian, we would have to also fall under the category of disciple of Christ.

What it means to be a disciple... er, that needs further classification and discussion.

NightCrawler
06-13-2007, 04:06 PM
Disciplined.